State of the Paladin

[Turial]

...
These are a few of my thoughts on paladins, tanking, and what may or may not need to be changed. Smites and tanking to come later as well as a DPS/avenger discussion.

d) Smites, LOH, and tanking for the Paladin
1) Smites
As we know a smite takes the paladin cha as a bonus to-hit and adds paladin levels to damage. If a paladin has taken the divine righteousness enhancement line I described above the following would change about a paladins smite; The amount of damage dealt by a smite, for purposes of determining aggro, would be affected by a multiplier based on what tier of divine righteousness the paladin had taken. This in effect makes the act of a paladin smiting a creature that much more of a threat because the creature feels the power of the paladins deity behind the swing and would want to eliminate the paladin that much more. Regeneration of smites remains the same.

2) Lay On Hands
I propose that lay on hands be broken up into two forms; a) current form which is a single heal type shot and b) a 1-2 min DOT effect. The DOT LOH would be an enhancement that is gained at a high level and represents the paladins reward for remaining the holy warrior of their god/cause. So in effect the paladin that took this would then have two types of hot keys that would use up a LOH use, normal and DOT. The DOT would be a very effective tanking type LOH as a paladin could apply the LOH buff to himself or another player and essentially keep them topped off for hp for the length of the buff.

II) DPS
DPS and paladins are an interesting mix. For more consistent DPS you want a high starting str which means you will invariably end up with a lower CHA, ie no paladins start with max cha in DDO, or rather they are very few in number because they will be much less likely to hit anything.

a) Two existing attack lines
1) Divine Sacrifice
Currently costs you 10 hp and 1 sp to swing and provides extra damage and critical multiplier. Note: this does not have synergy with bodyfeeder. To have synergy with bodyfeeder this attack would have to increase the critical range of the weapon and as multipliers have little to do with the workings of bodyfeeder there is no more synergy here with it then any other attack, especially as bodyfeeder gives temporary hp and not a healing effect.

2) Exalted Smite
Provides 2x cha bonus to attack when using smites, additional damage multipliers, increased threat range, and quicker cool down on your smites.

3) Changes to each line
Each of the two lines provide no passive bonuses to the paladins that take them which means a paladin must click on individual icons to execute attacks rather then swinging naturally like other DPS classes. I propose that each of the two lines gain some passive benefits that focus on core paladin tenets.

Divine Sacrifice should give a +1 sacred bonus to hit and damage for each tier that is taken at the cost of -1 AC. The Paladin is better able to attack and damage hit foes but sacrifices some of his ability to defend himself in the process, religious zeal type of thing.

Exalted smite should do two things on a passive scale: i) allow a portion of the paladins cha bonus to passively apply to-hit based on the number of tiers they have taken ( 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100%, if there are 4 total tiers) and decrease the time required to regenerate new smites.

b) Bulwarks
Above I had recommended changing how bulwark of good worked so that it only applied its bonus to the paladin who invested the AP in the line rather then all people in the aura. In addition bulwark of good should be changed to bulwark of defense. Parallel to bulwark of defense should be Bulwark of zealous fury (taking one of these lines should lock you out from taking any from the other).

Bulwark of zealous fury allows a paladin to apply a portion of their cha bonus to their damage.

Final thoughts:
Obviously what I have proposed can't be fully integrated as stated otherwise paladins would likely become the new kings of DPS as powergamers would now be applying both str and cha to their to-hit and damage which could pass rangers, rogues, and barbarians. Some one would have to crunch the numbers for me, cause I'm lazy and bad at math.

I hope the devs and some of you will see things that applied correctly would allow paladins to correctly live up to their potential as a defensive or offensive melee.

[Dawnblade]

1) Tanking
a) AC
The paladin has a hard time getting higher AC values then a similarly equipped fighter (especially if the fighter is standing next to him) because the Bulwark of good AC buff affects everyone in the paladin aura range. Thus the fighter (if tank specced) will have anywhere from +3 to +5 AC on the paladin due to Armor Mastery. The same goes for when a paladin stands next to a monk or ranger built for AC (ranger will likely only be +3 vs some enemies but those enemies are very frequent in number).

Lets face it if your mere presence makes others have more AC then you then its harder for you to tank as you must give up more to beat their AC and have the same amount of protection. So what I propose is having the paladins Bulwark of good only affect the paladin that has invested the AP into achieving it. This will make paladins a more popular 1-3 splash class for sure but it does give a reason to take them to cap, more exclusive AC.

A change like this to the paladin aura will have some changes to the global world as well. 1. Monsters will have a lower max ac that they have to hit and the to-hit values can be swung a little lower (good for all classes). 2. It makes paladins a more defensive class; only dwarven fighters will be able to get the same amount of exclusive AC from armor mastery as paladins gain from their exclusive bulwark of good aura bonus. 3. It slightly off-sets the fact that paladins will have to either spend a feat for tower shield pro or splash a level of fighter to gain access to the best defensive shields.

I don't know if I would go with totally eliminating the group buff aspect of the aura. How about keeping the group buff but giving the paladin an increased or secondary effect for each member affected by the aura. Without thinking about number, this could be something like stackable DR-1 per two members affected or something; or it could be AC +1 for each 2 members or something of the sort. But than it would kind of kill the "global mob change" you mentioned. So I do know. I understand your reasoning, but I'm not sure if taking something away and giving nothing back would make people happy.

b) Aggression or hate (call it what you will, its how tanks do their jobs)
A defensive tank in many games has a subset of skills and abilities that allow them to generate more hate then is typically generated through damage alone. Currently DDO has 4-ish ways to do that;

1) intimidate: This is the grand daddy of them all. With a successful intimidate check the tank has full control over the mob (ie they attack only him). Bad news, for paladins its not a class skill which means they have to splash levels of fighter or rogue to get it, fighter being the preferred due to free tower shield feat. Either way a paladin won't be able to muster up the same power in an intimidate that a fighter can due to fighters getting maximum ranks and enhancements to boost the skill.

2) Warforged Brute Fighting: Next to intimidate this enhancement line is a great idea for aggro control. Fully specced it gives a warforged aggro = damage delt + 25% damage delt at all times with no activation required (this is a powerful fact about brute fighting, No Activation = passive boost).

3) Incite gear: This is a very rare gear option that functions exactly like the warforged brute fighting in that it "increases" the amount of damage you have dealt for purposes of determining how much aggro you have. Currently only available on the maul of malice (shadow crypt) and as part of the Levik's set bonus, 20% additional hate each. Out of the two the Levik's set bonus is best for a tank looking to hold aggro via damage. I would like to see more inciting gear or a ritual that would let players add up to 20% incite on weapons or armor (similar to how command armor give a - penalty to hide, incite armor would make aggro generation easier).

4) Paladin Divine Righteousness: This enhancement is so close to being amazing it hurts to look at it. Currently it gives +50% hate generated by melee attacks for a period of 60 seconds at the cost of a turn undead use (didn't mention this as a paladin ability because few people try to use it for turning undead and more ideas will come later for it). I propose that this ability be made passive and have a tiered breakdown starting at say 10% and ending at x%. I don't know how far behind on the damage curve paladins are when compared to barbarians and rangers vs FE but it would be balanced so that paladins focusing on a single creature could keep its aggro for a period of time. Others may have to back down and let the paladin generate more aggro at times which is not a bad thing as more and more end game raids are having additional mobs that need to be killed. Perfect time for the paladin to focus on sally and gain more aggro to keep her locked down.

Side note:To replace divine righteousness as an enhancement to use turn undead uses, I propose that paladins get full access to the divine healing line. DOT heals are very defensive abilities and would fit well with a paladins role as a defensive warrior.

My only concern with it being a passive is that in cases where the paladin is not the primary tank, there would be no way to turn it off. This would interfere with the main tanks job. How about making it a toggle?

c) Damage Mitigation
Damage mitigation comes in a few forms; AC we already covered, Buffs (will mainly come from outside sources), and DR. Barbarians rule the class based DR and I'm not going to touch that with a 10-foot pole. As far as damage mitigation goes paladins have resist energy, protection from energy, and *cough* angel skin. Angelskin is interesting from the standpoint of a buff and DR but will likely be overtaken by stoneskin in almost all cases, mainly due to short duration. I propose that angelskin be given a 1 min/level duration boost that way it will last long enough to cover the times in between stoneskin applications.

I agree that angelskin's duration could be improved a bit. I have never used because of it's short duration for what it gives. I could see a 1m duration for maybe a DR of at least 10, but I can't justify spending constant SP to get the little DR angelskin gives. So either increase the duration or the effect?

[Mithran]

My main has a splash of Rogue for Evasion and Skills and a splash of Fighter for the extra Feats because I wanted Greater Two Weapon Fighting and Spring Attack. Having said that, I'll allow as the reason I rolled her was because of how frustrated I had been with my first full Paladin. Now though, I regret having taken the two levels of Fighter because she could now have had Exalted Smite 3. Well, maybe I don't regret it, but the improvements to Smite make me wish I could crit with a Smite for more than a few hundred. Even so, her A/C is pretty good, as a GTWF she does good damage, and the Evasion is nice. With a high UMD, she can buff herself with all the many requests Fighters are obliged to make of the various casters in the group, and with Divine Righteousness, she holds aggro well. She's a lot more self-sufficient than Fighters or Barbarians, but her Health is not quite where it should be. Having said all this, any build in this game will excel at what your emphasis is, and will fall short in some other areas.

For me, the worst difficulty for my paladin is the prejudice about the class from so many in the game. Shroud raids are looking for either a barbarian or a fighter, and I'll sometimes get the new player (who doesn't know me) who will ask who's tanking the Reaver three times after I've indicated that I'm tanking.

[Turial]

It isnt about making others happy Dawn, its about improving the paladins aspect as a tank. Having it tied to a bonus based on number of players in the group is not a good solution as the DR or AC effect would make those two aspects even less useful for everyone else.

If you take the paladin aura away from others you are improving the AC for everyone as the maximum AC drops by 5 which is what mobs are set up to hit on a very consistent basis.

I would be fine with the divine righteousness being a toggle but the whole idea is to make this form of the paladin into the main tank.

On angel skin I would be for duration rather then an increase in DR.

[Mapa]

It isnt about making others happy Dawn, its about improving the paladins aspect as a tank. Having it tied to a bonus based on number of players in the group is not a good solution as the DR or AC effect would make those two aspects even less useful for everyone else.

If you take the paladin aura away from others you are improving the AC for everyone as the maximum AC drops by 5 which is what mobs are set up to hit on a very consistent basis.

In your opinion, would it be bad for Bulwark to give the same aura AC bonus it does now but give the paladin an extra boost. For example, you give the party a 1 ac boost and you get 2 to yours, at 2 you get 4, and at 3 you get 6. Feel happy to play with the numbers for the sake of balance but I feel the concept is solid. No conditions or questions just a straight up bonus.

[sephiroth1084]

I'm not going to read through the whole thread, because from what I've seen so far, it appears to be mostly the same arguments that keep going around on the boards all the time.

My feeling is that, yes, paladins should be balanced well enough that going pure paladin for 16 (or 20) levels is worth doing for more than just flavor, but I don't see the fact that they aren't as being such a tremendous hardship. In pen and paper, paladins lost effectiveness even earlier than they do in DDO: access to whatever magic items you want makes up for many of the problems that assail paladins normally.

Sure, straight paladins are pretty mediocre generally, but they combine REALLY well with many other classes, even as the main upon which something else is splashed (2 or 4 fighter, 1-3 rogue for example). I don't know about everyone else, but in PnP nearly every class benefited from some multiclassing unless they were full casters.

One big issue is that paladins don't have any prestige class(es) to go into, like they did in PnP. THAT was where more of their power came from anyway. Something that gives additional defensive benefits and feats (Pious Templar, Knight Defender, Defender of Sealtiel, Dwarven Defender, Cavalier), more/cooler smites (First of Raziel), or simulated being a paladin (Paladin as a prestige class from Unearthed Arcana).

I don't know why everyone keeps reminiscing about awesome PnP paladins. I play paladins almost exclusively in PnP and frequently felt outclassed. The OP mentioned barbarians not being perma-raged in PnP, but D&D 3.5 assumes 4 combats/day which means that by mid-levels barbarians can rage every combat for ~6-10 rounds, easily. VERY few fights last that long unless you are missing a caster or are fighting a HORDE of monsters. And even in those situations such a long combat was fairly rare. Compare raging for 4 encounters to being able to smite 4 times in a day. That's, at most, an extra 80 damage in a day. More if combined with Power Attack since you can trade the gained attack bonus for the damage without too much worry. Not terribly impressive, and too few feats available to get into any of the great combos. Divine Might is good, but that still doesn't amount to much of an increase in PnP.

It should be noted that I primarily played sword-and-board paladins, but much of this still held true for 2-handers. DDO has (over time) fixed many of the problems PnP paladins had with them, though certainly other issues have come around due to the changes they've made to other classes, omission of key paladin enhancers (PrCs, divine feats, SC spells) and the issues that occur when moving from a turn-based game to a real-time arena without properly adjusting for those differences.

Truthfully, I feel that DDO should be striving for something close to this:http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=761045

OneWinged4ngel's rebalanced paladin is TONS more fun to play than a standard PHB dude, and is better balanced against many of the other classes. As it stands, it looks like DDO HAS absorbed some of the material in here, such as regenerating smites. Truthfully, I think a shorter regen time would be ok. Maybe a minute/smite, or change it to all smites come back every 2 minutes, to sort of simulate the per encounter idea.

Someone mentioned paladin's naturally higher Cha making up for not having Intimidate. Well, look at the numbers--16 ranks, 8 Cha, +6 item = 18, while 8 ranks, 14 Cha (though many builds start with only 12), +6 Cha, +1 tome, +3 Paladin Cha enhancements = 15. So, much more invested, and still falling short. Plus, few enough skill points to increase that and anything else.

Honestly, I wish Turbine would give paladins more to look forward to after level X (whether 3, 4, 6, or 12), but also would like more people to be open to splashing that 1-4 levels of fighter or rogue. The only thing I can think of that they might add that would even come close to out-weighing the benefits of a 4 lvl splash of fighter is the final "Don't DIe" ability from the Rebalanced Paladin, and, honestly, Fighter Haste II, 3 feats, Intimidate as a class skill, Jump as a class Skill, 2 Intimidate enhancements, 1 Str enhancement, Armor Mastery, Tower Shield Mastery, Fighter Tactics II and tower shield proficiency are worth more in DDO than the 10 levels of a prestige class in PnP.

[Turial]

In your opinion, would it be bad for Bulwark to give the same aura AC bonus it does now but give the paladin an extra boost. For example, you give the party a 1 ac boost and you get 2 to yours, at 2 you get 4, and at 3 you get 6. Feel happy to play with the numbers for the sake of balance but I feel the concept is solid. No conditions or questions just a straight up bonus.

Crossing the streams bad.

I know its a tired litany but we don't need more AC, what we need is a balancing of exclusive AC bonuses between the classes so that the range of AC's that can be obtained is tighter so that AC means something again. I am also in support of removing Ranger FE AC bonus lines and changing armor mastery in some way (either the stacking or allowing a diversity of it).

The elite orthons in the shroud are set up to hit AC X (cant remember it off hand but Borror0 could likely post it, 57 or something) on a roll of a 7 or higher. This means that you need a 70 or higher to have 95% protection from their attacks and 60 AC to have 50% protection from their attacks.

Fighters with armor mastery will always have a better ac then the paladin they are standing next to (when similarly geared, which they would be if going for AC). In many cases the fighter will have 5 more AC then the paladin, due to armor mastery. Same goes for most other ac classes when standing next to the paladin because they have exclusive AC sources while the paladin shares his. Take that away and the fighter and paladin are on more even footing, AC wise, which would allow for the to-hit values for mobs to be tweeked down (large global changes like this have happened in the past).

If Paladins experienced a double boost from their aura then the high water mark for AC that mobs need to hit on a 7 or higher would move up by 5, in my example from 57 to 62 which means you need 75 AC or higher to be 95% protected from their attacks (a true tank needs that level of protection). 75 AC or higher is reachable on an armored class but it is extreamly difficult. For unarmored classes though it is a bit easier....classes that lack aggro techniques. It also means that ETAC is even less useful because mobs are geared for that higher AC and the new ETAC for more classes would fall even shorter.

[Mapa]

Turial, I am not trying to start an argument, but sorry if I do. I am trying to understand a few points in your thought process

Ok, for the sake of argument, let us assume a level 16 fighter and a level 16 paladin with +5 mithril plate, Madstone shields, Chaosguards, etc., are standing next to each other. The fighter can have the higher AC due to the Armor Mastery enhancement line, if they took it. All I am trying to say is give the paladin an equivalent personal boost in the Bulwark line or make it self only. The argument that it will escalate the to hits for example of orthons in the Vale does not apply in this case because we are not increasing the max AC they will face. The max AC the orthons will have to overcome has not changed. We have only increased the number of people that can attain it. I don’t want paladins pigeonholed as AC tanks but allowing paladins and fighters to achieve the same max AC, in different ways, will start the process of balancing the two classes and make a pure paladin as viable an option as a pure fighter at higher levels.

Am I just dense? I think we want the same thing. The only question is do we need to nerf one group or do we find a way to lift another up without causing more problems for those not otherwise involved.

[Turial]

Turial, I am not trying to start an argument, but sorry if I do. I am trying to understand a few points in your thought process

Ok, for the sake of argument, let us assume a level 16 fighter and a level 16 paladin with +5 mithril plate, Madstone shields, Chaosguards, etc., are standing next to each other. The fighter can have the higher AC due to the Armor Mastery enhancement line, if they took it. All I am trying to say is give the paladin an equivalent personal boost in the Bulwark line or make it self only. The argument that it will escalate the to hits for example of orthons in the Vale does not apply in this case because we are not increasing the max AC they will face. The max AC the orthons will have to overcome has not changed. We have only increased the number of people that can attain it. I don’t want paladins pigeonholed as AC tanks but allowing paladins and fighters to achieve the same max AC, in different ways, will start the process of balancing the two classes and make a pure paladin as viable an option as a pure fighter at higher levels.

Am I just dense? I think we want the same thing. The only question is do we need to nerf one group or do we find a way to lift another up without causing more problems for those not otherwise involved.

Oh I know your not trying to start an argument and neither am I.

You and I both want the same thing but we are moving in different directions to do it. Giving a paladin double aura AC would work in a case like what you stated. The issue is in cases where the paladin isnt in the group and the game is still expecting to have to hit an AC of fighter + 5 from paladin buff. This changes the group dynamics for an AC tank as they no longer require both a bard and a full paladin to be at peak defense.

That is why I think a nerf of the aura to non-paladins is a good thing. In pnp the aura doesnt do all the fun things it does here.

If you read down a few posts you will see what I think could be done to help paladins become DPS builds vs tanks. MMmmm paladin only DPS aura *drooling noises*.

[SteeleTrueheart]

MMmmm paladin only DPS aura *drooling noises*.

slobber slobber

or just implement Righteous Fury spell

[sephiroth1084]

Oh I know your not trying to start an argument and neither am I.


That is why I think a nerf of the aura to non-paladins is a good thing. In pnp the aura doesnt do all the fun things it does here.

I don't think taking away one of their best features (that of being a support class) is a good idea. If the aura only benefits the paladin, what point is there in taking a paladin along instead of a fighter? Sure, the paly is a bit harder to kill, but the fighter will have the same AC, yet hit harder, and will have intimidate.

Truthfully, I'd like some swappable aura enhancements added in. Instead of a Concentration aura always on, why not make a few enhancement lines for something like: +3/6/9 Concentration, +1/2/3 attack, +6/8/10 vs. fear, fast healing 5 hp/10/15 (or 10hp /20/30)/6 seconds, etc...

Maybe move away from strict numerical increases, but make each aura worth taking, and have them each toggle on/off where only one can be up at a time. Some paladins will only ever bother taking one, while others might take 2 or 3. Make them something different than what a bard or cleric will be doing. Heck, maybe give each a duration of something like 1 min./level, or 5 minutes. with a cooldown of a minutes or two to inspire folks to take more than one aura.

[Alcides]

Honestly, I wish Turbine would give paladins more to look forward to after level X (whether 3, 4, 6, or 12), but also would like more people to be open to splashing that 1-4 levels of fighter or rogue. The only thing I can think of that they might add that would even come close to out-weighing the benefits of a 4 lvl splash of fighter is the final "Don't DIe" ability from the Rebalanced Paladin, and, honestly, Fighter Haste II, 3 feats, Intimidate as a class skill, Jump as a class Skill, 2 Intimidate enhancements, 1 Str enhancement, Armor Mastery, Tower Shield Mastery, Fighter Tactics II and tower shield proficiency are worth more in DDO than the 10 levels of a prestige class in PnP.

Proposing that paladins should have to multiclass is preposterous. If I'm class X and I have to multiclass Y just to make general desireable aspects about class X better, then the value of class X is further diminished. Paladins have plenty of untapped abilities in PnP that would more than make up for any set backs to the class. There's plenty of Divine Feats(none of which have been implemented) which paladins could benefit greatly from since I don't know many high level paladins that use turn undead attempts other than for divine righteousness (Divine Might and Divine Shield). Also there's plenty of spells that would greatly increase a high level paladins bite. Noteworthy mentions include but are not unlimited to Axiomatic Storm, Divine Presence, Holy Storm, Righteous Aura, Righteous Fury, and Shield of Warding. A high level paladin's combat prowess comes from all their spells and abilities being stacked together...They don't get one super mega buff like a barbarian does. Until the devs realize this pure paladins will be remain sub-par.

[Turial]

I don't think taking away one of their best features (that of being a support class) is a good idea. If the aura only benefits the paladin, what point is there in taking a paladin along instead of a fighter? Sure, the paly is a bit harder to kill, but the fighter will have the same AC, yet hit harder, and will have intimidate.

Truthfully, I'd like some swappable aura enhancements added in. Instead of a Concentration aura always on, why not make a few enhancement lines for something like: +3/6/9 Concentration, +1/2/3 attack, +6/8/10 vs. fear, fast healing 5 hp/10/15 (or 10hp /20/30)/6 seconds, etc...

Maybe move away from strict numerical increases, but make each aura worth taking, and have them each toggle on/off where only one can be up at a time. Some paladins will only ever bother taking one, while others might take 2 or 3. Make them something different than what a bard or cleric will be doing. Heck, maybe give each a duration of something like 1 min./level, or 5 minutes. with a cooldown of a minutes or two to inspire folks to take more than one aura.

Except in most groups only 1 or 2 players are really benafiting from the paladin AC aura and in many cases its the other cases that benafit more. Mainly because their exclusive AC bonuses can not be taken by paladins. I wonder how often people bring paladins along for the aura buffs? I bring who ever shows up first and my spaztastic play style typically means I am self buffing and hasting all the time, also means I never stay neer a paladin long enough for the aura buffs to really matter. Thats just me though.

I do like the idea of swapable paladin auras ( check out the WOTC paladin boards for a revised paladin build with all sorts of nice aura ideas). If the devs went with a fast healing aura it would likely apply something similar to a DH buff. Fast healing though would be really powerful. Using good aggro management I have seen rogues stay at full health through quests thanks to the eat jerky effect. You would have to hit a paladin really hard to kill them as the aura would bring them back pretty quick. Still though a neat thing to look into.

[sephiroth1084]

Proposing that paladins should have to multiclass is preposterous. If I'm class X and I have to multiclass Y just to make general desireable aspects about class X better, then the value of class X is further diminished. Paladins have plenty of untapped abilities in PnP that would more than make up for any set backs to the class. There's plenty of Divine Feats(none of which have been implemented) which paladins could benefit greatly from since I don't know many high level paladins that use turn undead attempts other than for divine righteousness (Divine Might and Divine Shield). Also there's plenty of spells that would greatly increase a high level paladins bite. Noteworthy mentions include but are not unlimited to Axiomatic Storm, Divine Presence, Holy Storm, Righteous Aura, Righteous Fury, and Shield of Warding. A high level paladin's combat prowess comes from all their spells and abilities being stacked together...They don't get one super mega buff like a barbarian does. Until the devs realize this pure paladins will be remain sub-par.

I did mention most of the above in my post as things I would like to see come about, but I'm kinda tired of reading dozens of posts about how paladins lack X, Y, or Z, when much of that can be obtained via multiclassing. Fighters aren't kvethcing about their crappy saves, nor are casters or rogues. They're all splashing some paladin to deal with them or sucking it up. Yeah, I would LOVE for paladins to get all the abilities they should already have (Divine feats, Spell Compendium spells...the GOOD ones, not the **** they've shown us so far, and something similar to intimidate to be grabbing aggro).

I don't know if you've been paying attention, but I cannot see the devs EVER coming to that sort of realization. Have you seen the spells they wanted to implement in Mod 8? This, AFTER everyone and their mother complaining about the "love" given in Mod 7?

[sephiroth1084]

Except in most groups only 1 or 2 players are really benafiting from the paladin AC aura and in many cases its the other cases that benafit more. Mainly because their exclusive AC bonuses can not be taken by paladins. I wonder how often people bring paladins along for the aura buffs? I bring who ever shows up first and my spaztastic play style typically means I am self buffing and hasting all the time, also means I never stay neer a paladin long enough for the aura buffs to really matter. Thats just me though.

I do like the idea of swapable paladin auras ( check out the WOTC paladin boards for a revised paladin build with all sorts of nice aura ideas). If the devs went with a fast healing aura it would likely apply something similar to a DH buff. Fast healing though would be really powerful. Using good aggro management I have seen rogues stay at full health through quests thanks to the eat jerky effect. You would have to hit a paladin really hard to kill them as the aura would bring them back pretty quick. Still though a neat thing to look into.

I put a link to the Rebalanced Paladin from the WotC boards up back in my first post to this thread.

Honestly, I'd like a bigger radius on the aura a paladin sheds to increase the likelihood of someone benefiting.

[Turial]

I put a link to the Rebalanced Paladin from the WotC boards up back in my first post to this thread.

Honestly, I'd like a bigger radius on the aura a paladin sheds to increase the likelihood of someone benefiting.

See I knew it came from somewhere. Lol. A bigger aura would be cool.

[Alcides]

I don't know if you've been paying attention, but I cannot see the devs EVER coming to that sort of realization. Have you seen the spells they wanted to implement in Mod 8? This, AFTER everyone and their mother complaining about the "love" given in Mod 7?

Yeah I have been paying attention. Which is all the more reason that I and everyone else who wants to see paladins get the attention they deserve should keep trying to reiterate the same points until we are one voice that they either have to listen to or just simply state we will never implement XYZ.

I also think fighters should be given the Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy feats out of the Player's Handbook 2. Which would give pure fighters some serious bite Maybe even something along the lines of a Weapon Master PrC enhancement that increases crit range

[SteeleTrueheart]

They have already stated that there will be some more martial oriented feats that will help fighters mainly but also paladins.
Fighter and Paladin PrC enhancements are in the works.

Doesn't everyone get tired of saying the same things over and over. I am sure there have been these discussions 100 times already....

[Mapa]

They have already stated that there will be some more martial oriented feats that will help fighters mainly but also paladins.
Fighter and Paladin PrC enhancements are in the works.

Doesn't everyone get tired of saying the same things over and over. I am sure there have been these discussions 100 times already....

Yea, I thought I saw that mentioned in this week's WDA.

[Mithran]

As I said upthread, I multiclassed my paladin with 2 Fighter and 2 Rogue for UMD and Spring Attack and GTWF. I'm really pleased with her, but the prejudice I also mentioned has a basis in reality. Most paladins aren't tanks, but mine holds aggro quite well with Divine Righteousness. Isn't the main complaint about paladins here the realization of how the classes were balanced in the books? I ask this as someone who wouldn't roll a straight Fighter or Barbarian. I love my paladins for their self-sufficiency, primarily. Their dps is nerfed, as is their health (esp. if you play, as I do, elven babes), but the immunities are sweet, and being able to give yourself resists is nice for clerics. How many barbarians and fighters have a laundry list of things they 'must' be buffed with in order to do their jobs? My main can buff herself.