I dont feel like im contributing enough.

[bandyman1]

bandyman1
Quote: Originally Posted by Fallout
Seriously how many paladins can get 57 AC? Its great that you can achieve that, but you're more the exception then norm. But almost every fighter does, right ?

Smites are nice for going for last kill shot, but unless you put AP's into it, you only can a few smites. Kill shot? You do realize that I do more damage with a smite than most fighters can pull with a crit, and if my smite happens to be a crit itself, than mister fighter boy better get about three crits in a row to equal the damage output I just put on the mob with one swing.

-----------------------

>But almost every fighter does, right ?

And where did I imply that? Also its easier to get high AC on a fighter then on a paladin.

>Kill shot? You do realize that I do more damage with a smite than most fighters can pull with a crit

You do realize you get limited number of smites? I can crit over 300 on a smite. Smite is nice, if you roll a crit. Then with the inflated HP on the mobs, a smite is like getting a few free hits, so it makes it marginally usefull.

DPS I don't even look at fighters anymore, because they are pretty comprable to paladins and the 5th attack sucks. Tempest rangers on the other hand, is the new benchmark, good crit, fast attacks, and with favor enemies, can equal or surpass barbs in some cases. And with special weapons like w/p, smiting rapiers etc, make them deadly.

Easier to get high AC on a fighter? However so? Fighter's get access to Armor mastery I-III that pallys don't. That's it. It gives + 3 ( assuming you have the Dex. ) to AC. Pally's get bulwark of Good III for a total of +4 from their arua, no Dex. required. Case closed. Now, you could argue tower shield mastery, but again, the fighter must have the Dex, and taking both lines is a large AP investment. Both can take the same feats, and both can use the same gear. So, how is it easier again?

Now as to your statement about fighter's lagging behind in DPS, I'll totally agree. Problem is, my post is in responce to people saying pure paladins are gimped compared to fighter/pally multi-classes. And that's simply not true.

[Fallout]

Easier to get high AC on a fighter? However so? Fighter's get access to Armor mastery I-III that pallys don't. That's it. It gives + 3 ( assuming you have the Dex. ) to AC. Pally's get bulwark of Good III for a total of +4 from their arua, no Dex. required. Case closed. Now, you could argue tower shield mastery, but again, the fighter must have the Dex, and taking both lines is a large AP investment. Both can take the same feats, and both can use the same gear. So, how is it easier again?

Now as to your statement about fighter's lagging behind in DPS, I'll totally agree. Problem is, my post is in responce to people saying pure paladins are gimped compared to fighter/pally multi-classes. And that's simply not true.

Fighters need the dex requirements, but if anyone wants to put AC on their fighter, they would have decent dex to start out with. And to top it off whatever buffs a fighter gets, the paladin aura stacks for additional boost. And fighter class is a great class to splash with something else to get additional benifiets.

I'm not arguing that pallys are gimp. I'm arguing that you're making 57 AC like its easy to obtain on a pally. Most pally's don't roll with 57 AC. Show the OP your build and items your 57 AC. And then we make a fighter build comparision.

[Zenako]

Pretty much as always...

#1 - its the player

#2 - its the gear

#3 - and last is the build and class doing whatever.

You can have the best build in the world, but if you have inferior gear or are a lesser skilled/experienced player, you will not be as effective. Knowing when and what to do is about the most important thing. You can have all the skill in Intimidate in the world, but if you never use it, then it does not matter.

ANY class can be effective with a good player.
ANY class can be very effective with a good player and good gear.
ANY Class can be awesome with a good platey, good gear and a good build.

[cm2_supernova]

I think it will be interesting to see what kind of pally love 6.1 and 7 are going to bring about. I remember everyone hated on rangers for the longest time, not thats all I see are kick ass rangers everytime I log on.

I wonder if the pally hugs are going to end up the same way...

[Zenako]

I think it will be interesting to see what kind of pally love 6.1 and 7 are going to bring about. I remember everyone hated on rangers for the longest time, not thats all I see are kick ass rangers everytime I log on.

I wonder if the pally hugs are going to end up the same way...

Those rangers have not changed a lot, just the situations. The latest batch of mobs has made some of the inherent attributes of a Ranger now shine.

[bandyman1]

Fighters need the dex requirements, but if anyone wants to put AC on their fighter, they would have decent dex to start out with. And to top it off whatever buffs a fighter gets, the paladin aura stacks for additional boost. And fighter class is a great class to splash with something else to get additional benifiets.

I'm not arguing that pallys are gimp. I'm arguing that you're making 57 AC like its easy to obtain on a pally. Most pally's don't roll with 57 AC. Show the OP your build and items your 57 AC. And then we make a fighter build comparision.

But here's the problem Fall, you made a statement that 57 AC would be much easier to obtain on a fighter...and that just ain't the case.

Here you go though;

10 base
13 +5 MFP
7 +5 HSShield
5 Dex ( MFP and daggertooths belt )
4 arua
5 protection
2 dodge ( chaosguarde )
1 dodge feat
5 CE
4 natural ( Madstone rage )
1 haste pot
57 AC self buffed

+2 recitation
+1 Ranger's BS
60 party buffed.....humm...I know I had 61 the other day, not sure where the extra 1 came from though. Oh well. 60 AC party buffed.

That's with one piece of raid gear ( course I have more, but they don't affect my AC any ). Madstone boots are easily obtained with the number of reaver raids posted every day.

Now, show me, without items like the chattering ring ( which any pally could use for higher AC just as well ), or Dwarven armor mastery ( which again any dwarven pally could add ) just how the fighter could obtain a higher AC easier.

Edit. I'm not saying that they can't bro, just saying that it's not easier. It's going to require a higher AP investment and a MTS most likely, which is a very rare drop as well. Point being, if it's easy to accept that someone would be willing to put the effort into a fighter or splash build to aquire a high AC, why is it such a difficult concept for people to grasp that a pally player would do the same thing? All I hear is; " Pssh...like 50% of pallys have that .". So, I say; " And 50% of fighters or splash builds do ?".

Do splash builds and fighters have advantages? Certainly they do. Rogue splashes are great with evasion, and like I said before, pure fighters are out damaging me by +2 to +3 points a strike. They also have better intimidate, and more feat options for tactics and the like.

Do pure pallys have advantages? Absolutely. I have very good AC as well, and better saves ( that I also boost for those fighting near me ), more LoHs ( and mine heal for near 200 ), more smites, and am more self-sufficient. Sorry to rain on anyone's parade, but that's simply the way it is.

[sumnz]

But here's the problem Fall, you made a statement that 57 AC would be much easier to obtain on a fighter...and that just ain't the case.

Here you go though;

10 base
13 +5 MFP
7 +5 HSShield
5 Dex ( MFP and daggertooths belt )
4 arua
5 protection
2 dodge ( chaosguarde )
1 dodge feat
5 CE
4 natural ( Madstone rage )
1 haste pot
57 AC self buffed

+2 recitation
+1 Ranger's BS
60 party buffed.....humm...I know I had 61 the other day, not sure where the extra 1 came from though. Oh well. 60 AC party buffed.

That's with one piece of raid gear ( course I have more, but they don't affect my AC any ). Madstone boots are easily obtained with the number of reaver raids posted every day.

Now, show me, without items like the chattering ring ( which any pally could use for higher AC just as well ), or Dwarven armor mastery ( which again any dwarven pally could add ) just how the fighter could obtain a higher AC easier.

Edit. I'm not saying that they can't bro, just saying that it's not easier. It's going to require a higher AP investment and a MTS most likely, which is a very rare drop as well. Point being, if it's easy to accept that someone would be willing to put the effort into a fighter or splash build to aquire a high AC, why is it such a difficult concept for people to grasp that a pally player would do the same thing? All I hear is; " Pssh...like 50% of pallys have that .". So, I say; " And 50% of fighters or splash builds do ?".

Do splash builds and fighters have advantages? Certainly they do. Rogue splashes are great with evasion, and like I said before, pure fighters are out damaging me by +2 to +3 points a strike. They also have better intimidate, and more feat options for tactics and the like.

Do pure pallys have advantages? Absolutely. I have very good AC as well, and better saves ( that I also boost for those fighting near me ), more LoHs ( and mine heal for near 200 ), more smites, and am more self-sufficient. Sorry to rain on anyone's parade, but that's simply the way it is.

Do you think you could let me know where I could get some of these items, and tell me if at 16th level it would be possible to solo or duel run the dungeon to get them? I have someone willing to run them with me alot, but not more than one person. Chaosguarde, daggertooth belt, madstone boots. I do have a +5 protection item, but its banked because that is the same neck slot as my 5 con immune to poison neclace. As for mithril full plate, I only have 18 dex with 6 dex gloves on, and wouldnt I get too many minuses to hit with a tower shield since I dont have the feat? That being said I did loot a +1 densewood transmuting repeating light crossbow of smiting recently that I could probably trade for some very good stuff. Oh and are Iron mannicles junk at high level, only reliable ac boost item I could find.

[Ciaran]

Kill counts are a tricky thing, and not really always a good indicator of DPS or your contribution to a party during a quest. Sometimes it's somebody intentionally getting the last blow on mobs over and over again, sometimes it really is a character's damage output dropping mobs quickly and consecutively.

Are you swinging at creatures or standing still doing nothing?
Are you wand whipping between fights (or sometimes in fights)?
Are you passing out buffs?
Are you boosting UMD (I know the answer is yes, these are rhetorical questions, mainly) to raise dead members?
Are you using CC weapons like paralyzers if you aren't able to compete with the other melee characters in group? What about insta-death weapons like vorpals or banishers?

I guess it comes down to how you define contributing in a party. Sometimes my paladin leads in kill counts, sometimes she doesn't. I have never felt that I was a drain on party resources and have never once been told I was "dead weight". Usually I'm up there in kills and I'm wand-whipping, buffing and at times bringing the party back from the brink of a total party wipe. Casters and Clerics usually get my LOH's over other party members if they get in a tight spot, but sometimes the WF barbarian that's ripping into everything will get them too when I'm fighting alongside them - I'm not going to get all huffy if I can't match their DPS, so I might as well help the cleric keep the main damage dealer up while focusing on mobs that filter past the barb and attack the rest of the party. Of course, if I'm neck and neck with or ahead of the other melee(s) in group I'll still toss out a LOH if I need to.

My paladin is my favorite high level character to play currently because she's self-sufficient, useful in several ways in a party, and can more than hold her own in a fight. I can also erase death penalties since I was able to keep my same build and respec my enhancements to include Unyielding Sovreignty.

That isn't to say that I don't think paladins need some lovin' (c'mon MOD7!) to give them a boost in melee combat among other things, because clearly we do. I'm just saying that even as things are now, well built and well played paladins (not just a splash of 3 levels of paladin) can offer a lot to a party.

[Ciaran]

Do you think you could let me know where I could get some of these items, and tell me if at 16th level it would be possible to solo or duel run the dungeon to get them? I have someone willing to run them with me alot, but not more than one person. Chaosguarde, daggertooth belt, madstone boots. I do have a +5 protection item, but its banked because that is the same neck slot as my 5 con immune to poison neclace. As for mithril full plate, I only have 18 dex with 6 dex gloves on, and wouldnt I get too many minuses to hit with a tower shield since I dont have the feat? That being said I did loot a +1 densewood transmuting repeating light crossbow of smiting recently that I could probably trade for some very good stuff. Oh and are Iron mannicles junk at high level, only reliable ac boost item I could find.

Chaosguarde - Drops from Xorian Cipher. Pretty sure it can't be soloed, or at least you can't get to the chest that gives you the key to open the chest they drop from (and then there's the traps). People still farm this quest for Planar Girds, so easy to get into.

Daggertooth Belt - Drops from Crucible end chests. Again, pretty sure it can't be soloed anymore (since the change to beholder cookies). Most people can run this quest quickly, so if you really want it, you could farm it. As an aside, unless I wasn't paying close enough attention or not accounting for something or there's a bug - the Valkryie shield in the Gauntlet part of the Shroud raid has FAMII, but I didn't notice when I had it equipped that my AC went up, and my MDB was high enough to take advantage of it.

Madstone Boots - Drops from Reaver Raid. Sorcs and clerics have solo'ed it. Don't know if it's feasible with a paladin. Always raids forming for this, so easy to get in one. Can't cast spells when Madstone Rage activates though.

See if you can trade your +5 protection necklace for a cloak or something.

Mithril FP - you won't get the full benefit, probably, but still probably better than regular +5 FP. As for Tower Shields, I had the same dilemma, but eventually got the Madstone Shield from the Reaver raid, which grants Tower Shield Proficiency.

Iron Manacles are only good if you don't have a better protection item. Plus, you have to be Chaotic/able to hit 20 UMD. If you are wearing Chaosguardes, you don't have room for the Manacles.

Depending on your intelligence, you could take CE, but INT is a hard stat to get to a 13 as most paladins focus on STR, CON, WIS AND CHA. Were I to roleplay my paladin, she'd be unable to speak correctly with an 8 INT, but I specifically made her to perform well in this twitch, active combat game, so RPing isn't a concern.

Chattering Ring drops from the Titan and gives +3 Dodge bonus, which stacks with other Dodge bonuses, so you could get a +5 Dodge bonus with Chaosguardes and Chattering Ring.

Easier to get high AC on a fighter? However so? Fighter's get access to Armor mastery I-III that pallys don't. That's it. It gives + 3 ( assuming you have the Dex. ) to AC. Pally's get bulwark of Good III for a total of +4 from their arua, no Dex. required. Case closed. Now, you could argue tower shield mastery, but again, the fighter must have the Dex, and taking both lines is a large AP investment. Both can take the same feats, and both can use the same gear. So, how is it easier again?

Now as to your statement about fighter's lagging behind in DPS, I'll totally agree. Problem is, my post is in responce to people saying pure paladins are gimped compared to fighter/pally multi-classes. And that's simply not true.

Well, I'd say fighters can get a higher AC a little easier than a Paladin can because Fighters can better afford to get a 13 INT on top of a good STR, CON and DEX score, so that makes getting CE more feasible.

Overall, I'm in agreement with you though.

[Borror0]

Chaosguarde - Drops from Xorian Cipher. Pretty sure it can't be soloed, or at least you can't get to the chest that gives you the key to open the chest they drop from (and then there's the traps). People still farm this quest for Planar Girds, so easy to get into.

XC can be soloed on a wizard or sorcerer. It takes summons (or create undead) and the proper CC as this video shows.

Daggertooth Belt - Drops from Crucible end chests. Again, pretty sure it can't be soloed anymore (since the change to beholder cookies). Most people can run this quest quickly, so if you really want it, you could farm it.

Crucible is still ran often and isn't that hard. On normal, a well geared sorcerer can blow through it with Cone of Cold. But really, the belt isn't that expensive on the AH, at least last time I checked.

Madstone Boots - Drops from Reaver Raid. Sorcs and clerics have solo'ed it. Don't know if it's feasible with a paladin. Always raids forming for this, so easy to get in one. Can't cast spells when Madstone Rage activates though.

Yeah, not interesting for a paladin, ihmo. You can't cast DF when you have that one on...

Mithril FP - you won't get the full benefit, probably, but still probably better than regular +5 FP. As for Tower Shields, I had the same dilemma, but eventually got the Madstone Shield from the Reaver raid, which grants Tower Shield Proficiency.

Well, there is also the Centurion Armor from the Titan that is a little easier to get. As any AC build, you'll want the Cattering Ring anyway and very few people actually want/need the armor nowaday.

[Averroes]

XC can be soloed on a wizard or sorcerer. It takes summons (or create undead) and the proper CC as this video shows.

Not quite. You can solo your way past the 4 runes, but pulling the lever on the right side (that opens the door to the puzzle on the left) and then doing the puzzle on the left side still seems pretty impossible. Summons can't pull levers, and even if you could make the jump up from the right, there's a gate blocking it until the puzzle is complete...

[Ciaran]

XC can be soloed on a wizard or sorcerer. It takes summons (or create undead) and the proper CC as this video shows.

I'm at work so YouTube is blocked (too much watching of Naruto when I was stuck here waiting for a process to finish, I think) so can you tell me how they get the barriers down on the two different hallways where people have to stand on the floor panels? I'm guessing summoned monsters and charmed monsters...

Crucible is still ran often and isn't that hard. On normal, a well geared sorcerer can blow through it with Cone of Cold. But really, the belt isn't that expensive on the AH, at least last time I checked.

Yeah, that's what I way saying. As far as the belt being expensive or not - I guess it depends on how you define expensive, LOL! I just went from having 21k plat on my paladin to having 11k since I sent 10k to an alt to upgrade their backpack.

Yeah, not interesting for a paladin, ihmo. You can't cast DF when you have that one on...

Does LOH work though? Not sure that I've had the need to use LOH while having Madstone. But yeah, so not interested in the Madstone Boots for my Paladin. Now, for my tactical fighter, that's another story!

Well, there is also the Centurion Armor from the Titan that is a little easier to get. As any AC build, you'll want the Chattering Ring anyway and very few people actually want/need the armor nowaday.

I don't know about easier, but probably less frustrating. My paladin has the Black Dragon Plate, thanks to the generosity of my guildies, which I love for the mana, and the higher base AC is pretty much the same thing as armor with a higher MDB.

Not quite. You can solo your way past the 4 runes, but pulling the lever on the right side (that opens the door to the puzzle on the left) and then doing the puzzle on the left side still seems pretty impossible. Summons can't pull levers, and even if you could make the jump up from the right, there's a gate blocking it until the puzzle is complete...

Good call on the levers - forgot those. D'uh.

[Borror0]

So can you tell me how they get the barriers down on the two different hallways where people have to stand on the floor panels? I'm guessing summoned monsters and charmed monsters...

This video is actually a creative use of Create Undead, so he casted Created Undead, paralysed them on the two switches on one side. Then, he proceeds to the other side and casts Summon Moster on the stand while he stands on another one. Voilà!!

But yeah, forgot about the lever.

[Ciaran]

This video is actually a creative use of Create Undead, so he casted Created Undead, paralysed them on the two switches on one side. Then, he proceeds to the other side and casts Summon Moster on the stand while he stands on another one. VoilÃ*!!

But yeah, forgot about the lever.

That's ingenious. If only we could issue commands to summoned monsters...

[Levit]

IF YOU WANT TO COMPETE FOR THE KILL COUNT, you will need to learn and employ the cheezy tactics that ALL top competitors for the kill count know and employ. If you are NOT using cheezy tactics to build your kill count, then you are at a severe disadvantage, and to answer your question, that is what you are doing wrong.

It would also be helpful if you would be willing to indulge yourself in a profound level of self-delusion.

Here's some nice, cheezy kill count building tactics to help you get started building your kill count - basic cheezy skills that all the top kill counters employ continuously:

1. Get your self some striding 25% or higher item, and run far ahead of everyone else in the party. Go after the easy to kill mobs that are not much threat to the party and leave the really tough, slow-to-kill, maximum-threat-to-the-party mobs, say like drow blackguards, to everyone else.

2. Never stop to heal yourself. This uses up alot of time. And besides, you will take so much damage with these cheezy tactics, you couldn't possible afford to heal yourself - even between battles.

3. Instead, exploit the clerics mana by not using any time to self-heal or any combat tactics to reduce the damage you take. Damage reduction tactics use up time that could be running ahead and killing trash mobs. Try to manipulate the cleric to spend as much time and mana healing you as you can. Use your self delusional skills to ignore the fact that you are only half a man, that you are nothing without a virtual full time healbot, spending 40% or more of his mana on you alone. After all no one will know you used this cheezy tactic but you and the cleric.

4. After you've killed the easy stuff ahead, double back to begin expoiting the clerics mana, and to steal as many kills as you can by targeting mobs that others are wacking on. Don't bother with mobs that have yet to be attacked, and have a full bar. They will really slow down your kill counting. Avoid tough, high hit point mobs like the plague. Leave them to your parties' squishies to kill.

Oh, and that trail of mobs behind you, the really tough to kill or dangerous ones, bring em on back to the group and let them take care of em for you. Hey, that's what they are there for.

5. Die, Die, and Die again. You must be willing to die more than anyone else in the party, due to the fact that you will often be running so far ahead that the cleric's healing cannot reach you. Also
each death taunts the cleric to try harder to prevent this. If the cleric is not sufficiently taunted, make snarky comments about his performance. No one but you and the cleric will know what's really going on. And there are no statistics about how many times you died or how much healing you consumed, to interfere with your delusions of how uber you are.

Hope that helps you understand why you are not at the top of the kill count, and someone else is.

I play a cleric often and can agree with the above statements. There are tactics that can be used to build an advantage on kill counts that often tax the ability of the rest of the group, thus reducing enjoyment of gameplay. I happen to enjoy grouping with a "good palidan" more than a "good fighter" or "good barbarian". A well-played palidan steps in to take agro off a barbarian that may have severe stat damage at the time, or the fighter that is very low on hit points and the cleric can't get to him. He can use intimidate to draw agro off squishies, LOH a warforged battle mage that is out of mana and is still swinging his great axe with abandon, etc. etc. etc.

To the OP: Concentrate on good gameplay and find a good guild of players that appreciate what you bring to the table. If the quest is completed successfully and you had a good time, well, I think that is reward enough. You don't need a useless statistic like kill count to define the player you are.

[Arcanoid]

You may not lead in kill count when you are running with a DPS Barb or TWF ranger, but then again things will go much easier for the party if the palidin charges into the fray first, and lets the DPS rain down from the undistracted chars while you do the survival thing in the middle of it all.

Paladin == Last man standing

[elraido]

Honestly, the only time I have ever wished I had more DPS was at the pit fiend.

[liamfrancais]

I feel as the OP does near useless in new material, I dropped a group last evening doing running with the devils so they could get more DPS. Could be I wasn't using the right weapons as all I tried got yellow numbers and immune or +0 when hitting the ghales who I never realized before (and I have two raid ready characters) can simultaneously cast Heal on themselves and chain lightning it is really neat wish I could do that . But yeah got my butt kicked and said ah maybe another day so I put the pally to bed and farmed ingredients with the fighter/barb.

On a side not my son was giving me flak because Liamfrancais is only level 15 and my sorc is 16 and F/B soon to be 16, oh well it is what it is.

[bandyman1]

I feel as the OP does near useless in new material, I dropped a group last evening doing running with the devils so they could get more DPS. Could be I wasn't using the right weapons as all I tried got yellow numbers and immune or +0 when hitting the ghales who I never realized before (and I have two raid ready characters) can simultaneously cast Heal on themselves and chain lightning it is really neat wish I could do that . But yeah got my butt kicked and said ah maybe another day so I put the pally to bed and farmed ingredients with the fighter/barb.

On a side not my son was giving me flak because Liamfrancais is only level 15 and my sorc is 16 and F/B soon to be 16, oh well it is what it is.

Let me guess; your pally's got a 24 Str, and your running around swinging a +3 holy burst or shocking burst of pure good weapon?
Yeah; you aren't gonna do any damage to a DR mob that's Chaotic-Good aligned and has innate electric resistance.

I'm really not trying to be an ass here ( Seriously. I know that text does not convery tone well. ), the only reason I ask is because I had a pally in group the other day in that quest with the exact same problem ( for the above mentioned reasons ), while my pally was owning the kill counts with a true law of greater chaotic outsider bane. Needless to say, once I explained the situation to him, his performace increased markedly.