Bringeth thy hate. Ren caps his permatoon

[MysticRhythms]

Its odd how these forums have become some breeding ground for disenchanted players nasty sentiments.

If you're referring to me, I'm not disenchanted. If you're referring ot my posts, I don't see how they were nasty. Am I supposed to agree with everything posted? SHould I jsut type "congratulations" and be done?

Noone can ever say hey I accomplished such and such, and Im excited enough to post it because I like the game without being slammed ruthlessly.

My posts were far removed from "ruthless slamming." If you disagree, I'd like to see where and why.

Maybe bringing it a bit upon yourself by making the thread name Bringeth thy hate

That's actually quite an interesting point. You might say the OP set the tone of the thread with his title.

I would not go through Bringing the Light, Irestone Inlet, or any number of other quests not because I wanted to ignore content or bypass it but because in addition to it not being much use to me xpwise it had ceased to be fun.

So if it's not the "lack of XP" that makes such quests less fun, what is it that makes them less fun than the ones you mentioned via acronym?

[parvo]

Badonkadonk=......
Yeah well I like playing DDO with my monitor turned off and just because I'm never gonna get anywhere doesnt matter MY WAY's BETTER!

All you need to do is accomplish something your way guys, hell anything, and we'll congrat ya.
LOL

I'll hold you to it

[Tulsa_Doom]

I dont know if you can just type congratulations and be done with it. :P. A bit of a penchant for the verbose. Total joke. Not meant to provoke or inflame. Have a good one. Best way to end this one is to walk away.

Grats Ren!

See that was easy.

Grats Ren!

Did it again!

Ok sorry. Really have a good one and cya in game.

[Clay]

Eliminating risk would limit my fun. I'd feel a bit dirty if I skipped quests like The Pit or other quests deemed "annoying" by the populace. I'd much rather open my quest log and see a page full of "Normal/Hard/Elite" rather than a lot of "Not completed." To me, that's a little more impressive than achieving level 14. Though beating the titan is impressive.

That's exactly what you said, however. You eliminated risk unless it suited your reward (in this case, experience points). So you actually faced much less content and in particular, ignored the most difficult content by your comments below.

Where does not running all content equate with limiting risk? 3 man madstone/crucible elite is low risk? Actually, most of us in Legion like quests like the Pit--its actually one of my favorites. I really fail to see how you think, by anything that was typed in this thread, where they ignored the most difficult content? Especially considering they did EVERYTHING with a maximum of 4 people?

How is it a challenge if you skipped the majority of quests?

Right... this is such a common occurrence that posting that someone capped a permadeath character, is akin to posting that he successfully complete Elphonia's challenge. Skipping quests does not equal ignoring difficult content.

Or rather time consuming which is contrary to your goal - most reward with least effort.

Uh huh. 4 people dedicating 3-4 hrs a couple nights a week, playing hard and fast = little effort. God I hope you don't work on a hourly rate. Let's imagine that they are contract workers... they get the money when they finish the work. The choice is: take it easy, take a rest every couple hours... day off here and there; or they go in, geterdone, get the money. Their goal was FIRST to hit lvl 14. That was the goal... they accomplished it. The goal was not to hit lvl 14 at the same time as reaching 1750 favor. I don't think it is even possible.

avoid the most time consuming (and probably difficult) quests in the game.

Sorry looking at Rayzors quest log is not even close to avoiding difficult quests. Have you actually 3-manned Madstone/Crucible elite under level? Have you done any of the level 10 or higher quests, in permadeath, on elite, under level and under(person)ned? If you have, I retract this comment and take my hat off.

We started up on Sarlona recently. In order to get drow unlocked focused all my playing to getting favor at the same time as getting xp... If at all possible I tried to get in parties doing elite first. It took me 2 days of playing to hit lvl 6 and 400 favor, reaching both at the same time. This was with a 28pt build completely untwinked. I did not touch house K, D, or J quests (the ones actually in those houses) reaching that xp/favor limit. With the amount of XP in the game, how would it be possible to reach lvl 14 with more than 1000-1100 favor unless you are sandbagging levels. Especially considering there are no elite openers... they can't, like I did, join a pug running the Elite level bypassing the xp from normal and hard. I have a capped cleric with under 800 favor. Was never a main toon--used only to unlock drow on my second account. Then just brought out to help guildies/friends. Actually might be closer to 900 now after running Orchard stuff.

I also enjoy discourse about different approaches to the game. But all your statements, without having actually attempted to determine how "easy" what they did was by doing it yourself, looks less like discourse and more like finger pointing. I also fail to see what if was in Renegade's posts where he slighted you causing you to come out guns blazing... you asked questions, he answered them... and... ?

[Rayzorlew]

Badonkadonk=My perma toon.
1st=received her coin lord 150 favor.
Tangle=N.H.E. (house p favor)
Delera's/Necro=N.H.E.
Redwillow=N.H.E.
Gwylans=N.H.E.
Caged Trolls=N.H.E.
Stormcleave=N.H.E.
Greymoon=N.H.
Co6=N.H.
The pit=N.H.(Elite I can't remember)
Thernal=N.H.(Elite I can't remember)
Von1-4=N.H.E.
(wanted to do preraid but needed another wisdom char. and we don't allow pugging)
B.A.M.=N.H.(Elite I can't remember)
Went and got helms from Orchard.
All of Gianthold (except preraid and raid)=N.H.E.
(wanted to do preraid but we still didn't have enough relics, and we don't use AH.)
Received 150 Argo favor.
Finally got her portable hole, for coinlord, lol.
H.I.P.S=N
Ghola=N
Hit level 14, in here somewhere.
Shriek/mines=N
Restless Isles=N
Titan=N

How is it a challenge if you skipped the majority of quests?

What did we skip, piddly little crappy quest's maybe.
My quest completions are above Mystic, you tell me.
Maybe Necropolis tomb quests?
I would rather stab myself in the eye with a broken Doritto, than run those.
We never did quests that were not in our level range, but to accomplish what you keep arguing about, we would of had too.
I would think that would be kind of cheating, considering we would of reached the Vons at level 14 by doing everything else first.
Then you'd probably complain about that.

By the way, try and refrain from picking apart my post line by line....thats one troll tactic your over using.
Go hook up with Parvo and do somethig.
Get your own accomplishment thread.
Here I'll even title it for you.....

"HIT 14 WITHOUT DOING A QUEST OVER LEVEL 8"
Have fun with Stormcleave at level 13....real challenging.

[MysticRhythms]

Where does not running all content equate with limiting risk?

Skipping encounters that are tough simply because it's easier to get XP elsewhere = limiting risk, no? Is it riskier to get leevl 14 or riskier to get 1750 favor, for example?

3 man madstone/crucible elite is low risk?

Nope. I never said that. Though I wouldn't advocate running Ghosts with a PD group, would you say that's a low-risk quest? How about running level-appropriate stuff on Elite before level 9? For example, doign the optionals in a quest as low level as Walk the Butcher's Path. Do you consider that to be low-risk at 4th level? I suppose it is if you get none of the nameds or don't even bother trying to do the optionals. Perhaps now you'll understand where I'm ocming from.

Actually, most of us in Legion like quests like the Pit--its actually one of my favorites. I really fail to see how you think, by anything that was typed in this thread, where they ignored the most difficult content?

Well, it's difficult for you to be objective since it's your guild here. They skipped a lot of optionals. Granted, optionals are just that - optional. I also mentioned that performing level-appropriate quests before achieving level 9 is actually more difficult than proponents in this thread seem to be acknowledging. Perhaps they assumed I meant somehting like "How DARE you not run The Miller's Debt on Elite?" Nothing could be further from the truth.

Especially considering they did EVERYTHING with a maximum of 4 people?

While this is a topic for another thread, oftentimes it's easier to do something with 4 than it is with 6.

Skipping quests does not equal ignoring difficult content.

I disagree. I also hardly believe that they mapped out the toughest possible quests on their way to 14. Again, if the goal is to achieve 14 in the most efficient way possible, then I'd definitely try to minimize my risks too, especially if I'm tryign to get there extremely fast.

Uh huh. 4 people dedicating 3-4 hrs a couple nights a week, playing hard and fast = little effort. God I hope you don't work on a hourly rate. Let's imagine that they are contract workers... they get the money when they finish the work.

If you equate DDO to a job, then I guess this is where I leave the conversation.

The goal was not to hit lvl 14 at the same time as reaching 1750 favor. I don't think it is even possible.

Actually, it is.

Have you actually 3-manned Madstone/Crucible elite under level?

Definitely a great accomplishment. No doubt.

Especially considering there are no elite openers... they can't, like I did, join a pug running the Elite level bypassing the xp from normal and hard.

How is that relevant to PD?

I also fail to see what if was in Renegade's posts where he slighted you causing you to come out guns blazing...

Where were my guns blazing? Quote me, please.

[MysticRhythms]

What did we skip, piddly little crappy quest's maybe.

What does "crappy" mean? Some people take it to mean "wow that's a hard quest with nothing to show for it." One element of that statement is "that's a hard quest." So what do you mean by "crappy?"

My quest completions are above Mystic, you tell me.

You do realize that the quest completion you listed is exactly the quest completion most people who power-level perform, right? Why do you think they do those quests for power-leveling? Is it because they're difficult?

Maybe Necropolis tomb quests?

Those are pretty challenging for their level, aren't they?

I would rather stab myself in the eye with a broken Doritto, than run those

If I were trying to achieve level 14 as fast as possible, I would too. If I were trying to challenge myself to complete the content of the game at the levels the quests are supposedly designed for, then I'd consider it a badge of honor worthy of an acknowledgment in this forum. Wouldn't you?

We never did quests that were not in our level range,

Earlier above, someone in your group stated that you "went back to complete quests for favor." So which is it?

but to accomplish what you keep arguing about, we would of had too.

No you wouldn't have. If you wanted to, you could hold off leveling and perform the majority of quests at the stated levels. But holding off leveling would detract you from your goal - fast achievement of level 14, so I can understand why you wouldn't do it a different way.

I would think that would be kind of cheating, considering we would of reached the Vons at level 14 by doing everything else first.

I do believe I mentioned in my previous posts that I wouldn't advocate running quests far below a character's level.

By the way, try and refrain from picking apart my post line by line

I prefer to address items line by line so that I make sure I point out proper quotations where I use them. It also helps me avoid copying entire posts when I'm addressing just a few points within a particular post. Your'e the first person that I've ever seen consider that form of response "trolling."

"HIT 14 WITHOUT DOING A QUEST OVER LEVEL 8"
Have fun with Stormcleave at level 13....real challenging.

[/QUOTE]
Actually, if you read what I write, you'd see htat this is the exact opposite of what I'm saying.

I have one more question and then I'll respectfully bow out of the thread.

What did you want to hear from anyone (outside of Legion) about your accomplishment?

[Renegade66]

I titled my post "bringeth thy hate..." because historically any legion achievement is met with scorn, resentment and bitterness. This does not bother me. In fact, I encourage it. Without lamebrain, wannabe's jumping in and making themselves look like complete fools, there would be little to no fun on the forums.

I appreciate all the sincere congratulatory posts received by many of you. However, I also appreciate the idiotic, singleminded posts that make me feel a little better about myself and help speed my work day along.

Thank you both.

[juniorpfactors]

I am sure someone will add that your not "Permadeath" capped until you beat the Abbott without dying....

JRP sure was permadeathed last night about 6 times

[Rayzorlew]

What did you want to hear from anyone (outside of Legion) about your accomplishment?

Honestly, the truth......thats it.
From you it would sound like this....

Congrats Ren,
I play a PD character also, yet I haven't accomplished really anything compared to you and your group.
So instead I'm going to pick apart your accomplishments and be as petty as I possibly can, out of plain jealousy.
I really don't have a leg to stand on with my arguement so I'm just going to babble on, and say things as ridiculous as the
Necropolis tomb quests are hard.
See I know I'll never be able to complete most of the quests Rayzorlew has on his quest completion page with my PD character.
So instead I'll say stuff like "You do realize that the quest completion you listed is exactly the quest completion most people who power-level perform, right?
Why do you think they do those quests for power-leveling? Is it because they're difficult?"
knowing full well those quest have the best xp because they are harder.
The only thing I didn't figure in was what am I going to say to my own guild "Sublime."
Oh well its just a game no one can see me, I don't care how bitter I look.


Try that.

[JayDubya]

From a long term (although not recent) Permadeather, congrats Razor. That's an awesome accomplishment.

Having a cohesive team of great players is probably the ideal way to do it, too.

[Rayzorlew]

From a long term (although not recent) Permadeather, congrats Razor. That's an awesome accomplishment.

Having a cohesive team of great players is probably the ideal way to do it, too.

Thanx Jay.
I also agree with you, I believe it is all in the team make-up.

[Clay]

The thing I don't understand MR, is where you get the idea that they ran everything over level?

We in Legion, when leveling, usually run everything under level where possible to max out xp. WE don't run "level appropriate"... we run under level. You still are not giving any justification for your equating skipping quests we a. don't like b. have low xp for time for completion and c. have low favor with skipping hard quests.

It really sounds like you have a row to hoe against them reaching lvl 14 in PD and are trying to find someway to detract from it.

I don't see anything in their quest list that is called easy.

Again you accuse them of minimizing risk. What thread are you reading? It certainly isn't the same one I am. 3 man PotP elite is minimizing risk? C'mon man.

I don't equate DDO with a job, I was trying to use it to illustrate a point. Which was in vain as you are intentionally harping on the same assumptions anyways. Or are being intentionally obtuse.

The purpose of the thread is not to have people say how great they are... I am pretty sure their self image is not dependent upon what you think of them as DDO gamers. Discourse is always welcome, but you are providing no substance to support your claims. It is more like you read the thread, judge it by your own ezperiences, assume they can't have done that they did without being over level for quests and they come out with fingers blazing.

[Dirac]

Sorry, late to the party here. Congrats! That is very impressive; in fact, the accomplishments are more impressive all the time.

[MysticRhythms]

The thing I don't understand MR, is where you get the idea that they ran everything over level?

I never said this. In fact, if you read the thread you'll see this in post #45:

3) Rarely ran quests below our level unless it was to finish up favor

You still are not giving any justification for your equating skipping quests we a. don't like b. have low xp for time for completion and c. have low favor with skipping hard quests.

Do you consider something liek Freshen the Air or Swiped Signet at-level to be hard quests? Yes or no? Before suggesting that they are not worth much XP, jsut answer - are they difficult to do at-or-under level?

It really sounds like you have a row to hoe against them reaching lvl 14 in PD and are trying to find someway to detract from it.

Nope. I already stated that level 14 is impressive. Doing the Titan Permadeath is impressive. I can quote myself on these points if you like, but I did state that.

I don't see anything in their quest list that is called easy.

Waterworks, Tangleroot, STK, Cult of the Six, etc, are not normally considered difficult quests, are they? They're done by the general populace most often because of large ratio of rewards to risk. That's why they're done over and over, isn' it?

Again you accuse them of minimizing risk. What thread are you reading? It certainly isn't the same one I am. 3 man PotP elite is minimizing risk? C'mon man.

Simple question - is it easier to do ALL of the content or to do only the content that rewards you the most? If you do all of the content, aren't you doing everything they've done above and then some? So isn't it by definition, harder?

Which was in vain as you are intentionally harping on the same assumptions anyways.

Harping? No. repeating statements I've made that have yet to be addressed? Absolutely.

The purpose of the thread is not to have people say how great they are...

Alright. What is its purpose then?

Discourse is always welcome, but you are providing no substance to support your claims.

What kind of substance am I missing? I've named quests and objectives. The response so far has been "we don't liek those quests/objectives." Well, ok then. That doesn't mean said quests/objectives aren't challenging or risky, does it?

It is more like you read the thread, judge it by your own ezperiences, assume they can't have done that they did without being over level for quests and they come out with fingers blazing.

I believe they played by their stated permadeath rules and achieved level 14 the way they say they did. Absolutely no doubt in my mind.

[gemineye]

I have one more question and then I'll respectfully bow out of the thread.

enough already....As much as I like laughing at the troll, enough is enough.

[Renegade66]

zzz...zzz...zzz...

I'd say this thread jumped the shark long back.

Simply put, being first to cap a permatoons is worth mentioning. Disappointment in not being the first is an unfortunate side effect. Idiots coming out of the woodwork is inevitable.

Thanks for all the words of encouragement. Kind or otherwise, all are appreciated.

I really hope more people try Permadeath in whatever rule set you find fun and challenging. I was really against it until I tried it. If you have half as much fun as we have then you'll have a blast that adds a new dimension to a sometimes stale gaming experience.

[Strings]

Here's my quest list for my perma/qausideath bard: 1024 favor @ 14.

Renegade and Rayzor played more than me and did many adventures while they waited for a full group (edit: by full group I mean all 4 of us), so there's will differ from mine, but to at least give you guys an idea, here's some screen shots:

[MysticRhythms]

Thanks for the list, Strings.

Some of he Elite/Hard stuff is impressive and of course all the Titan stuff is on any difficulty.

[Hafeal]

Having just started a permadeath character in the past week and being involved in re-invigorating permadeath on Khyber with the only active permadeath guild, I will say I am impressed. We have had people dying at level 2!

Congratulations on the extremely impressive achievement. I know I wouldn't have the patience.

I don't understand the "definition of permadeath" debate. I thought the point of permadeath was not to conform to Real Life rules where you're dead, you're dead (founders of ancient religions notwithstanding). I thought the point of permadeath was to conform to Dungeons and Dragons Paper and Pencil rules, wherein there are no shrines and no "recall."

That means to me that Raise Dead and Resurrection are perfectly legitimate mechanisms, as they are in D+D PnP. Have I missed something? What would be the point of playing permadeath without Raise Dead and Resurrection? Clerical magic is illegitmate somehow?

_

You are correct by my account and that is how we have the permadeath set-up.

First, grats on the achievement.

Second, Permadeath is only permadeath up to level 9 (or 6 if you allow the enhancement). After this, it is just a more difficult ruleset you follow.

And if you won't allow the cleric to raise dead at 9, then it wouldn't be dnd anymore...

Hail Guidlmate. Well, yes and no - party wipe is a party-wipe. And if you lose your rezzer ...

Overall I agree, there is a mental "safety-net" when you know the cleric or other party member can rez you. But it is far from fool-proof.