Hammer and Tongs (A build by request)

[sigtrent]

From Sigtrent's Build Request Thread

Build Name: Hammer and Tongs
Author: Sigfried Trent
Requester: Pinksock
Last Updated: 07/12/10

Key Words [Tactics, Dwarf, TWF, Fighter]

Objectives
The requester wanted a 28pt TWF character using either hammers or picks. I got it into my head to do a TWF character that used both hammers and picks, idealy at the same time. The high concept was that the hammer would stun opponents and the pick would tear them apart with strong auto crit’s.

Design
I went with dwarf for the tactics bonuses and because I liked the idea of dwarves with anvil like tools. Warforged would work quite well also but I’ve done a similar warforged build already. TWF focus was essential and on a 28pt build that means splitting Str and Dex at character creation. Fighter is the natural class for any tactics based build and pure is a good way to go. In the end it let me get all the feats I wanted and then some.

Since pick is the damage dealer I throw Kensei into it. Generally you would be main handing a pick and off handing a stunning warhammer. You are more focused on landing a stunning blow move than on getting the 3% stunn chance. You can instead use dual stunners and then switch to dual picks. Quick draw makes that easier to do once you get it. Ive often found that approach a bit impractical, but it is effective if you are quick enough.

Damage with either weapon will be very good but the pick crits are really insane at high levels, especially if you can work a high seeker value into the mix. Epic Meralith Chain is great for this build, and even the normal chain is pretty nice.

Defenses are decent here although that really isn’t a prime consideration. Solid HP and decent AC are attainable but this is not meant to be a main tank for a group. On boss fights go with dual picks and you should be in the top tier of DPS, especially if you get a bit lucky on the crit rolls.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Neutral Good Dwarf Male
(20 Fighter) 
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 9
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(28 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            16                    17
Constitution         16                    17
Intelligence         10                    10
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              6                     6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               5                    18
Bluff                -2                     1
Concentration         3                     6
Diplomacy            -2                     1
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -2                    -2
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                  3                     3
Intimidate           -2                     1
Jump                  7                    29
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently         3                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair                0                     0
Search                0                     2
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II


Level 5 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Enhancement: Kensei Heavy Pick Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I


Level 7 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II


Level 8 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) III
Enhancement: Fighter Heavy Pick Specialization I


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) IV


Level 11 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Specialization: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Heavy Pick Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II


Level 13 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Quick Draw
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 16 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Piercing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III


Level 17 (Fighter)
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Heavy Pick Specialization II


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Kensei Heavy Pick Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Fighter Warhammer Specialization I


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Bludgeoning Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics III

Play
Weapons play an important part in this build so hunting down good stunning hamemrs and DSP picks is key. Also keep in mind that while you don’t have improved trip, you are decent with tripping anyhow so make it part of your hot bar at lower levels. You may also want to keep a pair of dwarven axes for zombie slaying.

Variations
32pt builds and tomes only add to the fun. You can probably start with 18str if you like. You can also turn this into a splash build, probably rogue if you want evasion and a little sneak attack damage. Fighter alacrity is nice, but not quite the boon it once was. When you take it might be a little tricky though due to the BAB requirements on the feats taken. Its easier to add in later to the build than earlier.

[WolfSpirit]

I like this one Sig, but I would like you to alter a few things for me if you would.

First off, I want to see this as a drow version.
Both a Str option, and a Dex/Finesse option.
(I figure Finesse with PA is still holding its own)
All or mostly fighter, whichever gives the best TWF skills with dual Heavy/Light Pick.
with all the happy Piercing bonuses/feats and such.
Oh! And what if you wanted to go with Kopesh in main hand? Whats the best secondary hand weapon, and what Feat changes would that include to make that a deadly build?
If you can squeeze in good self healing, cool if it takes too much away, then scrap it.
And all without items, though suggestions after the fact are good.

[Hokonoso]

best khopesh offhand is another khopesh :P

[Pinksock]

Thanks for that Sig. I have been messing around with both builds and didn't even think of combining them! I have collected an average stash of both weapons (nothing top end but enough to make the mid levels fun) so this build is easily doable for me and I am quite excited to get in and give it a go.

The only follow-on question I would have is would it be worth sacrificing some high end weapon damage feats like greter weapon specialisation and things like cleave to get the mobility->spring attack line. With the amount of moveing most mobs do now, would there be an increase in DPS due to the removal of the to-hit penalty?

Will be rolling up 'Redsock' on Khyber this week and following your gameplan.

Thanks
Pink

[sigtrent]

There is certainly lots of room to play around with the feats on the build. You don't need the greater WF or greater WS they just seemed the right thing to maximize pick damage for the build.

I'm not a fan of mobility/spring attack. Running around tends to make you miss due to server lag and latency because the monster isn't really where it appears to be, more than you miss due to the -4 attack penalty. But the build does already have dodge in there so its only two feats. Fighter is about the only class I'd consider those feats for since you have feats to spare.

If mobility weren't so useless I might like it more. I've often argued it should give you an ac bonus whenever you are moving or the like. Then it would be more worthwhile in my mind.

Personaly I tend to stick and move. So I move around and then stop to attack, then move a bit if needed. I like tumbling since it doesnt interupt the attack chain or impose the move penalty but its not so good for chasing monsters.

My fave move tactic is to circle a monster when there are a bunch of them agroed on me. Thier buddies get cought up finding their way around while I pick on the one I'm using as a virtual shield.

[Mister_Peace]

Edit: **** necromancers.

[Diato]

Doesn't 5% stun give +10 to dc of stunning blow?

[Pinksock]

Doesn't 5% stun give +10 to dc of stunning blow?

I am not sure, but I do know the 1% stun gives +2 DC so I would assume that 5% would give +10

Yet to find a 5% weapon!

[Schmackdown]

5% gives +10. Much more common are 4%/+8 weapons IME.

This build needs Quick Draw.

[A_Sheep]

Yeah, I'd definitely add quick draw to this build. It'll increase your DPS if you can swap the weighted weapons for picks. I'd suggest dropping dodge for quick draw.

[sigtrent]

Yeah, I'd definitely add quick draw to this build. It'll increase your DPS if you can swap the weighted weapons for picks. I'd suggest dropping dodge for quick draw.

It really doesn't need quick draw. The idea is that you always wield the weighted weapon in the off hand and the pick in the main hand. The bonus to stunning blow DCs applies not to the weapon, but to any stunning blow the character makes. So stunning blows with the pick get the bonus from the weighted property of the off hand weapon.

The 5% stun is only on off hand attacks, but that is just a bonus effect, it is the increase to stunning blow DCs that we are really after here.

[pappo]

From Sigtrent's Build Request Thread

Build Name: Hammer and Tongs
Author: Sigfried Trent
Requester: Pinksock
Last Updated: 07/12/10

Key Words [Tactics, Dwarf, TWF, Fighter]

Objectives
The requester wanted a 28pt TWF character using either hammers or picks. I got it into my head to do a TWF character that used both hammers and picks, idealy at the same time. The high concept was that the hammer would stun opponents and the pick would tear them apart with strong auto crit’s.

Design
I went with dwarf for the tactics bonuses and because I liked the idea of dwarves with anvil like tools. Warforged would work quite well also but I’ve done a similar warforged build already. TWF focus was essential and on a 28pt build that means splitting Str and Dex at character creation. Fighter is the natural class for any tactics based build and pure is a good way to go. In the end it let me get all the feats I wanted and then some.

How would you modify this for dwarven axes? I have a lvl 15 dwarf fighter that I am not happy with and want to do a re-roll. I have a Greater Heart of Wood so I can make a 32 point re-roll. I also have a backpack full of dwarven axes that I would have to sell if I wanted to try this build with picks. I would like to keep the axes if possible.
Any help would be appreciated.

[unbongwah]

I'm not sigtrent, but for DAxes I'd think you'd take Slashing feats instead of Piercing and the DAxe ftr enhs rather than Heavy Pick. Might even be able to squeeze in the dwarf axe enhs while you're at it. 32-pt vs 28-pt: could put it into +2 CON; or +1 STR + 1 INT - that way you could take a +1 INT tome for more skill pts or +2 INT tome to get Combat Expertise & Imp Trip someday.

[MogeeMaleeg]

I am working on a human variation on this theme using Hammers and Sickles. Any advice as to how to maximize. I know sickles are one of the lower base dps weapons, but they look so cool and the hammer and sickle theme is fun for me.

[The_Mud_Man]

Rolled up this guy last night and it's quite fun so far. I started out at lvl 4(love my veteran's status). I'd like to incorporate trip into the build for leveling and swapping out feats/enhancements later as necessary to what's suggested in the build. Any suggestions on how I'd go about this?

[dunkabuffalo]

-edit-

[Thescalybard]

I rolled out a slightly different version of this build, using the hammers for stunning, but switched to dwarven axes (mostly because I've come across some nice ones lately). After running a few quests, my guildies started calling it "The Chef." I asked him why, and he said, "Because first you tenderize (stun) them with the hammer, then ya cut 'em up like a roast!"

Can't argue with that, I suppose. Thanks for posting the build, might try the actual build someday down the line.

[unbongwah]

There have been a couple of key changes which have nerfed this build since it was first made: namely Stunning Blow / helplessness only provide +50% dmg rather than free auto-crits (bye-bye massive heavy pick DPS vs stunned mobs ); and +Stunning is now available on non-blunt weapons at higher lvls, so you don't have to equip a warhammer to get it, so why invest 3 feats into blunt weapons you don't need? Better to pick a weapon type, stick with it, and use those extra feats to pick up CL/GC/Overwhelming Crit, IMHO.

Also, if you're planning on +3 Supreme tome, you don't need so much base DEX. In fact, if you can spare a +1 DEX tome early, you could do something like this:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.16.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 25 True Neutral Dwarf Female
(20 Fighter \ 5 Epic) 
Hit Points: 512
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 9
Will: 6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 25)
Strength             18                    30
Dexterity            14                    17
Constitution         17                    21
Intelligence         10                    13
Wisdom                8                    11
Charisma              6                     9

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11
+4 Tome of Constitution used at level 23

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Stunning Blow


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics I
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Damage II
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense III
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei II
Enhancement: Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Strength III


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 15 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Precision


Level 16 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Superior Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Fighter)


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Trip
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost IV
Enhancement: Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Enhancement: Dwarven Tactics II
Enhancement: Kensei Dwarven Waraxe Mastery III
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy III
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei III
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Trip) I
Enhancement: Fighter Dwarven Waraxe Specialization II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II


Level 21 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Fighter)


Level 23 (Fighter)


Level 24 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Toughness


Level 25 (Fighter)

You can use a Stunning warhammer in your offhand while leveling, then swap it for another d.axe w/Stunning later. If you LR into hammer Kensei for Mornh someday, naturally you'd swap Slash feats for Blunt.