Rogue - Assassin Changes

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Assassin tree.


Core Abilities:

Assassin's Trick: This now works on all enemies and no longer has a saving throw. Targets now lose 25% Fortification and their Sneak Attack immunity.

Nimbleness: Nimbleness no longer requires sneak attacks and works on any hit.

Deadly Shadow: You gain +2 Dexterity and +2 Intelligence. You gain 10 Melee Power and +4 Sneak Attack dice. You gain +4 to Reflex saving throws.


Tier One

Poison Strikes: (Opponents struck by these attacks have an "Assassin's Mark" for 10 seconds.)

Shiv no longer reduces threat when you attack. It instead offers an additional passive component that reduces threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%. The attack portion now also makes a Bluff check using your Bluff skill.

Stealthy: You also gain +20%/+35%/+50% movement while sneaking.


Tier Two

Venomed Blades: Now costs 1/1/1 AP. (As a reminder, Venomed Blades now scales with 200% Melee Power.)

Bleed Them Out: The bleed damage scales with 200% Melee Power.

Damage Boost: Cost reduced to 1 AP per level. Changed to boost Melee Power by 10/20/30.


Tier Three

Critical Accuracy is removed.

Critical Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) + 1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hits


Tier Four

Critical Damage is removed.

Weakening Strikes: Your attacks against enemies with an Assassin's Mark (from Poisoned Strikes) reduce the Melee Power and Ranged Power of the opponent by 10 for 10 seconds.

Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)


Tier Five

Measure the Foe: Gain +4 Melee Power, +2 Dodge, +2 Maximum Dodge, +1 to hit and +1 to the DCs of your Assassinate ability for every 4/2/1 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times and lasts for 10 seconds after you come out of stealth.

Deadly Strikes: Your attacks against enemies with an Assassin's Mark (from Poisoned Strikes) do +5 damage.

Light Armor Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) You gain 1/2/3 to Maximum Dodge. While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus of your armor and gain 2/4/6 Physical Resistance Rating.

Sev~

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Originally Posted by Severlin

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Assassin tree.

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I am pressed for time and will offer more detailed feedback later. But I need to know:

Does this round of changes include a fix to a solo rogue assassin being able to both:
1) Assassinate more than one mob from a single use of assassinate, and
2) Avoid automatically agroing other mobs when using assassinate.

If not, those need to be included. They have to do with the interactions with the "new" stealth/awareness system that went in awhile back.

If you need additional details, let me know (post or pm) and Ill make a detailed report including repo information when I have time (when Ill also provide feedback on the changes here).

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Originally Posted by Severlin

Shiv no longer reduces threat when you attack. It instead offers an additional passive component that reduces threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%. The attack portion now also makes a Bluff check using your Bluff skill.

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If this is a cut n paste of Improved Feint... Improved Feint has been broken since U14.

(It has the issue where you need to stop the attack chain animation to use it, and also wait 1 tick for the bluff check to happen. If you hit the hotkey while holding down the mouse button, it never fires. If you Click again before the bluff check, that never fires.)

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Originally Posted by Systern

If this is a cut n paste of Improved Feint... Improved Feint has been broken since U14.

(It has the issue where you need to stop the attack chain animation to use it, and also wait 1 tick for the bluff check to happen. If you hit the hotkey while holding down the mouse button, it never fires. If you Click again before the bluff check, that never fires.)

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Thanks for the info. The intent is that the Bluff check would happen as part of the attack and be included in the attack's animation time.

Sev~

Not impressed.

Giving them 3 PRR and 6 more dodge (when every Rogue is most likely running around with Max Dodge) is very ridicolous compared to every other melee running around with 200.

Also not impressed with the overall changes.

- What's the point of giving Melee power WHILE STEALTHED? They are not gonna attack while in stealth, just Assassinate. You lose the buff as soon as you get out of sneak, pointless.
- Assassin's trick still has an AWFUL LONG ANIMATION.
- Weakness Poison is not something I'd take. Reducing MP by 10, why? I don't wanna get hit at all on a rogue with such low PRR.
- Giving the capstone +4 Reflex save when most of the rogues are now Int rogues is pretty pointless too. They lack DPS, not saves.
- Execute is still worthless. 500 Damage when I'm doing 200 dmg per hit and it disrupts my attack chain is pretty lame. Will see with scaling MP how it is

Not a single buff to Assassinate, a 30s CD insta-kill ability, when BARDS have a 12s insta-kill ability that doesn't need them to sneak forever to get a meaningful DC and uses the highest Skill as DC.

They need more than this.

EDIT: To buff rogues, you need to take a look at TWF compared to THF and SWF, otherwise it will never be enough.

The biggest problem with the rogue build now is not the enhancement tree, but the fact that they get hit by every ranged mob in the game. My hide / move silently skills are close to 100 yet I constantly have my sneak broken by stupid archers. It is very annoying to get right up to a mob and have your stealth broken by some mob not even near the fight.

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Originally Posted by Wizza

Not impressed.

Giving them 3 PRR and 6 more dodge (when every Rogue is most likely running around with Max Dodge) is very ridicolous compared to every other melee running around with 200.

Also not impressed with the overall changes.

- What's the point of giving Melee power WHILE STEALTHED? They are not gonna attack while in stealth, just Assassinate. You lose the buff as soon as you get out of sneak, pointless.
- Assassin's trick still has an AWFUL LONG ANIMATION.
- Weakness Poison is not something I'd take. Reducing MP by 10, why? I don't wanna get hit at all on a rogue with such low PRR.
- Giving the capstone +4 Reflex save when most of the rogues are now Int rogues is pretty pointless too. They lack DPS, not saves.
- Execute is still worthless. 500 Damage when I'm doing 200 dmg per hit and it disrupts my attack chain is pretty lame. Will see with scaling MP how it is

Not a single buff to Assassinate, a 30s CD insta-kill ability, when BARDS have a 12s insta-kill ability that doesn't need them to sneak forever to get a meaningful DC and uses the highest Skill as DC.

They need more than this.

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~ The Melee Power lasts for 10 seconds out of stealth. I clarified the text.

~ A reduction of 10 MP is roughly 9.9% damage reduction that works on anyone the monster is attacking, so it works when the Rogue is fighting a boss and helps other characters survive when the Rogue is sneak attacking.

~ Both Assassinate and Coup-de-Grace are 15 second cooldowns. The wiki (and I believe the in game text for the bard ability) are incorrect.

Sev~

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Originally Posted by Severlin

~ The Melee Power lasts for 10 seconds out of stealth. I clarified the text.

~ A reduction of 10 MP is roughly 9.9% damage reduction that works on anyone the monster is attacking, so it works when the Rogue is fighting a boss and helps other characters survive when the Rogue is sneak attacking.

~ Both Assassinate and Coup-de-Grace are 15 second cooldowns. The wiki (and I believe the in game text for the bard ability) are incorrect.

Sev~

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You are still asking a Rogue to sneak for 5 seconds to get this buff for 10 seconds. It is not practical to do in the middle of a fight. If we are fighting against a group of mobs, I cannot sneak mid fight and assassinate them, which is why Coup de Grace is so much better. Also, if a rogue is hit, I lose the sneak and I cannot sneak anymore because they see me. This is a buff that you get once per encounter and not even, while Coup de grace can be casted multiple times. Also, in a raid instance as MoD, Wyrm, Peaks, it's just not practical.

I still don't see any self-healing as well. You gave Barb one, every class has one, I'm expecting Rogues to have one as well. And DPS wise, they are still very behind to Barb, pallis and bards.

And TWF is still full of bugs and all around subpar compared to THF and SWF, which makes any improvement to the Rogues null. The range is horrible, the attack animation is horrible as well etc etc. Let's remember also HOW TWF IS THE ONLY FIGHTING STYLE THAT DOES NOT HAVE A +10 MELEE POWER in his feats. Rogues have to sneak for 5 seconds to get it for 10 seconds :rolleyes:

Have you decided where an assassin ought to be insofar as the DPS food chain? When able to sneak attack vs when not able to?

One specific suggestion:
Change the assassin's trick to a passive 25% fort bypass. Add to the 12th level assassin core the ability to sneak attack things not sneak attackable, also passive. This avoids questions of animation speed and will make your balancing act much easier in the future.

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Originally Posted by Wizza

You are still asking a Rogue to sneak for 5 seconds to get this buff for 10 seconds. It is not practical to do in the middle of a fight. If we are fighting against a group of mobs, I cannot sneak mid fight and assassinate them,

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Correct. It isn't meant for the middle of a fight. It's an opener for solo rogues.

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Also, in a raid instance as MoD, Wyrm, Peaks, it's just not practical.

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In a raid you should be dealing out tons of Sneak Attack damage so you are probably fine there.

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I still don't see any self-healing as well. You gave Barb one, every class has one, I'm expecting Rogues to have one as well. And DPS wise, they are still very behind to Barb, pallis and bards.

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Rogues have UMD and don't have Rage preventing them from casting if they need a healing source.

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And TWF is still full of bugs and all around subpar compared to THF and SWF,

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The specifics of TWF are probably off topic for this thread.

Sev~

putting both crit accuracy AND damage into tier 3 (which is I believe the lowest tier of any tree for getting both so far and thus new) is gonna go a long way to promote /3 rogue multi builds but I fail to see what this does for pure or neigh pure rogues which are the one that need the boost.

this'll be a nice boost to some specific multiclass builds that are alreay crazy crit range fotm - people will take rogue 3 for evasion, some sneak attack and the crits and be free to take other stuff than crit in tier4 of their main trees - sure you wanna go there?!?

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Originally Posted by Severlin

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Assassin tree.


Core Abilities:

Assassin's Trick: This now works on all enemies and no longer has a saving throw. Targets now lose 25% Fortification and their Sneak Attack immunity

Assassinate on anything every 15seconds - seems a bit much - I would either lengthen the cooldown OR make it use action boosts to limit the uses.

Nimbleness: Nimbleness no longer requires sneak attacks and works on any hit.

Either Over powered nearly permanent +10% to dodge OR means nothing on any rogue at dodge cap already

Deadly Shadow: You gain +2 Dexterity and +2 Intelligence. You gain +4 Sneak Attack dice. You gain +4 to Reflex saving throws.
Capstone should add +1 to assassinate

Tier One

Poison Strikes: (Opponents struck by these attacks are considered to be "poisoned" for 10 seconds.)
Not a big fan of on-vorpal stuff - too random especially with the DC calc on the save being nearly useless past level 25 - make it no save and maybe I would take these or change the DC to 1/2rogue+epic levels which would get the DC to workable range)

Shiv no longer reduces threat when you attack. It instead offers an additional passive component that reduces threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%. The attack portion now also makes a Bluff check using your Bluff skill.
All good


Tier Two

(As a reminder, Venomed Blades now scales with 200% Melee Power.)
ok

Bleed Them Out: The bleed damage scales with 200% Melee Power.
ok - not liekly to take still to save points for Harper

Damage Boost: Cost reduced to 1 AP per level. Changed to boost Melee Power by 10/20/30.
Interesting makes sense with the venomed blades and SA dmg getting melee power - makes it a toss up with haste boost if my math is correct

Tier Three

Critical Accuracy is removed.

Critical Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) + 1/2/3 bonus to critical damage and to confirm critical hit

Is this going to be done in all trees - squinting hard at Kensai
Tier Four

Critical Damage is removed.

Weakness Poison: Your attacks against "poisoned" enemies (from Poisoned Strikes) reduce the Melee Power and Ranged Power of the opponent by 10 for 10 seconds.
debuffs to mobs are a waste of time in general IMO UNLESS it works on a boss you will fight for more than 10seconds AND the DC on the poison is good enough to hit a boss.

Execute: Melee Assassinate attack: +3[W] damage. If target is below 30% health, deal 500 damage. This damage scales with 200% Melee Power. (Cooldown: 15 seconds
personal opinion here but I hate these types of enhancements as I have to pay way to much attention to the mob healthbar to execute these. the 3W damage is decent enough on it's own but the timing of this to get full benefit is annoying - IMO - others may love that stuff


Tier Five

Measure the Foe: Gain +2 Melee Power, +2 Dodge, +2 Maximum Dodge, +1 to hit and +1 to the DCs of your Assassinate ability for every 4/2/1 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times and lasts for 10 seconds after you come out of stealth.this was good enough as it was - so this is just gravy

Deadly Poison: Your attacks against "poisoned" enemies (from Poisoned Strikes) do +5 damage.
See my comments on DC below.

Light Armor Mastery: (1/1/1 AP) While wearing light armor you gain 2/4/6 to maximum dexterity bonus of your armor. (This also affects maximum dodge.) You also gain 1/2/3 Physical Resistance Rating.
skip the PRR add 1/2/3 dodge

Sev~

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My thoughts in red above. Key point is that 'Poisoned' needs to land if the rest of the key changes are to work - DC of 10+1/2rogue+Int will be on a decent assassin - 10+10+25(ie. 60Int) - so 45 - that doesn't pass muster from Gianthold on up.

Other than that I like asssassin in the first place so not too many quibles.

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Originally Posted by ValariusK

Have you decided where an assassin ought to be insofar as the DPS food chain? When able to sneak attack vs when not able to?

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Assassins should have excellent single target DPS when sneak attacking.

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One specific suggestion:
Change the assassin's trick to a passive 25% fort bypass. Add to the 12th level assassin core the ability to sneak attack things not sneak attackable, also passive. This avoids questions of animation speed and will make your balancing act much easier in the future.

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Interesting suggestion making the fort bypass and sneak attack work as a passive. I'll bring it up with the team.

Sev~

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Originally Posted by Severlin

~ A reduction of 10 MP is roughly 9.9% damage reduction that works on anyone the monster is attacking, so it works when the Rogue is fighting a boss and helps other characters survive when the Rogue is sneak attacking.


Sev~

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If the DC was higher - if it worked on bosses - at least up to red named - sure - I doubt any of that is true and for sure won't be under the current DC calculation/

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Not a big fan of on-vorpal stuff - too random especially with the DC calc on the save being nearly useless past level 25 - make it no save and maybe I would take these or change the DC to 1/2rogue+epic levels which would get the DC to workable range)

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The ability to give the Poisoned state to enemies works on any hit. The on-vorpal effects are legacy and we wouldn't want to pull them from existing rogues.

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Is this going to be done in all trees - squinting hard at Kensai

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Yes, as we do passes on additional trees these enhancements will be combined as they have here.

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debuffs to mobs are a waste of time in general IMO UNLESS it works on a boss you will fight for more than 10seconds AND the DC on the poison is good enough to hit a boss.

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The intent is that the debuff works on bosses and has no saving throw assuming they have gained the Poisoned state from the original attack.

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See my comments on DC below.

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See my comments above. The "Poisoned" state is transferred to enemies without a save - even bosses unless they have poison immunity.

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skip the PRR add 1/2/3 dodge

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With Nimbleness the Assassin is likely to be at Dodge cap or near to it.

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Originally Posted by Spoonwelder

My thoughts in red above. Key point is that 'Poisoned' needs to land if the rest of the key changes are to work - DC of 10+1/2rogue+Int will be on a decent assassin - 10+10+25(ie. 60Int) - so 45 - that doesn't pass muster from Gianthold on up.

Other than that I like asssassin in the first place so not too many quibles.

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Sev~

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Originally Posted by Spoonwelder

If the DC was higher - if it worked on bosses - at least up to red named - sure - I doubt any of that is true and for sure won't be under the current DC calculation/

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There is no saving throw for either applying the Poisoned state or applying the MP debuff to affected enemies. Only Poison immunity would interfere with this.

Sev~

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Originally Posted by Severlin

There is no saving throw for either applying the Poisoned state or applying the MP debuff to affected enemies. Only Poison immunity would interfere with this.

Sev~

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That makes it worthwhile then along with your other comments - I made the bad assumption that it required the on-vorpal to trigger the poisoned state. My bad.

So overall - thumbs up. Lots of flavor in there and enough stuff that is useable to make someone contemplate the point allocations with a few no-brainers thrown in for good measure.

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Originally Posted by Severlin

Assassins should have excellent single target DPS when sneak attacking.





Interesting suggestion making the fort bypass and sneak attack work as a passive. I'll bring it up with the team.

Sev~

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By excellent do you mean competitive with barbarians, or more like pallies and bards? My take is that melee DPS should go about like this
Very top Barbarians with fighters only slightly below them
Reasoning: Neither fighters nor barbs bring any significant utility to a party beyond their melee capabilities. Even the classic 'tanking' utility has been greatly diminished in the present metagame
Between 1st and 2nd tier: Rogues when able to play 'their game' (ie they're sneak attacking and using assasinate periodically)
Reasoning: Rogues bring some utility to a group---most notably trapping. The other utility they bring others can do almost as well (UMD specifically, I can use heal and rez scrolls in epics in pretty much every build I've ever had)
2nd tier: Rogues most of the time, pallies and bards--monks should fit in here also
Reasoning: Bards bring MASSIVE utility to the table as well as good blue bar self heals, Pallies have hardcore defense and good self-healing capability
3rd tier: pretty much everyone else that melees

To elaborate, I suggested putting the negation of sneak attack immunity in the 12th level core to keep it out of builds that aren't primarily rogue.
Regarding the whole active/passive thing in general though, have you ever studied how many bars typical players have and actually use? This isn't a rhetorical question. You could probably mine a fair bit of useful design information by studying the patterns of key presses and mouse clicks.

One more question - will there be a cooldown on Weakness poison or are we going to expect that roques will be providing a near permanent 10MP debuff to bosses?

And will multiple assassns poison stack?

I think the later cores 12,18,20 need some melee power.

I also think Rogues need to be able to move at 100% speed while in sneak mode, there used to be a bug that let you stack the speed in stealth enhancements from Ranger, Rogue, and Monk to achieve this, its since been fixed but It was fun and let you play the game a differently then other class.