Crafting Viability

Ok, I have come to terms with the whole spend TP for easier crafting levels, don't like it but if the money does help support the game then fine, lets deal and move on.

Earlier I decided to make a +1 holy mace to test the crafting viability for future unbound items. I did this without using TP at all other than the fact that I leveled crafting using Lamma TP.

Starting from scratch with the appropriate crafting levels, I had to deconstruct 23 various weapons that give up good ingredients, plus 4 efficacy scepters, to even have the amount of ingredients needed to make the lowly +1 holy mace. I know this is the preview server but is this WAI? Some of these where level 6 ability weapons. :confused:

The amount of ingredients from the deconstruct is really bad, add to the fact that they are random, which means that no amount of planning, ex...i must breakdown 15 of these items to make this one can be done.

Now as some of yall know, I have been looking so forward to real crafting finally being in DDO ever since it was mentioned at PAX that it was coming in U9. :D When watching the interview I know that he must have kinda misspoke when he mentioned that you can pull one ability from an item and put it on another. At no point have I seen that you can pull a "paralyzing shard" from an (read this as one) item and put it on another item.

Assuming (I know what this means but has to be used) that Paralyzing is level 90+ due to it being a "big 10" ability we can guess that with the amount of ingredients needed for those mystical levels, with level 75 items needing 2048, that it is possible with the progresson x2 not x4 as earlier levels then we could possibly see the need for 8000+ ingredients needed. That would mean that just using paralyzing like the PAX example you would need around 200 paralyzing weapons, since you only get around 35 ingredients from deconstructing them and this is from level 6 ability, to even have the ingredients need to craft said paralyzing weapon.

Now maybe it is not 8000+ but a semi-reasonable 1024 x2/x3/x4 progression in which case the above example is still rather unreasonable with having to deconstruct around 100 paralyzers just to make the one that you want. Point is using the PAX example with the crafting system they have given us, if you can't find the paralyzer you want with going through 100+ paralyzing weapons then the random loot system has failed in the first place.

To summarize this rather long post. To get the paralyzer you want you need to either break down 100+ items to make it, sell 50 of them to buy the one you want on the AH, trade a couple for it, or buy the ingredients with a couple hundred turbine points, lol. Which IMO seems like the crafting system as is, is kinda a failure. :(

I am up for discussion and willing to see other points of view on this topic. :D

The same thing has occurred to me. I've spent ~8000 Lammania TP to get to level L39 Arcane and L35 divine. Given
the raw material costs of recipes to progress beyond this level, I don't see how you can reasonably do it without
the store. A lot of recipes around that level require upwards of 256 of the smaller reagents (not to mention
harbor/marketplace collectibles - yuck). I de-constructed a boatload of weapons and didn't have 256 lesser
reagents of any category. Well, at least the decent shards are BTC... (holy, lawful outsider bane etc.)

You need to get more reagents from deconstruction IMO (and maybe some crafting XP).

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

On Lamannia noone runs quests to get this loot.

On Live, we'll spend a lot more time in quests than on deconstruction.


I'm not certain how the drop rates will turn out, but it's too early for 'DOOM AND GLOOM' imo. The store only blank trinket, OTOH, is very poor form.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

The store only blank trinket, OTOH, is very poor form.

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qft

/signed.

I like the potential of the crafting system but it's a hot mess. It really is. What would make it a little bit better is to be able to crunch leveling shards for mats. You will have stacks and stacks of those in the progress of leveling.

Plus there's no reasoning between what you get and the cost. I understand that you're going to lose some in translation - that when you deconstruct something you get less than what it cost to make, but the difference is not on the order of 30-40 percent - it's on the magnitude of 90+ loss. That's steep. Plus the level of the item and what you get doesn't make sense.

Here's how it should work. 3 ways to deconstruct - take enhancement bonus, make blank or get mats for all its powers. And mats according to level of the power removed, not where level 3 mat gives you 10 and where level 5 and above give you 30. Make it 10 plus 1d6 per level. Or 1 of the larger mats plus a 1d2 per level. You don't pick and chose the power - you get for all the power. That way if the power is a level 8 I get more than if it's a level 5 - because level 5 seems to be a good standard (gives you many times around 30 of the smaller mats) but you don't seem to get that much more above 5.

And if you deconstruct the shard you should get mats according to the level of the shards for that school. You lose compared to making shards, but the loss are kept manageable and you can actually feel like you're getting something for the process.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

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Yep, I've had several drops. It's generally extremely low rent versus what you will need to craft anything
useful though.

Once you get the crafting levels it won't be so bad; the raw material costs to make something moderately
useful aren't terribly prohibitive (though Greater Twilight costing 4096 minor ingredients might be a stretch!).
Advancing crafting levels will be very slow without the store due the costs and the XP decay on successful
recipes. Crafting leveling through deconstruction and loot will take a very long time IME.

I really don't see this crafting style being a first life first character sort of thing.

Since crafting xp doesnt reset on TR. I doubt anyone will be making anything real nice for quite awhile. Just due to the xp and materials needed.

Next life tho... You could make some wicked stuff for your twinking.

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Originally Posted by Arctigis

Yep, I've had several drops. It's generally extremely low rent versus what you will need to craft anything
useful though.

Once you get the crafting levels it won't be so bad; the raw material costs to make something moderately
useful aren't terribly prohibitive (though Greater Twilight costing 4096 minor ingredients might be a stretch!).
Advancing crafting levels will be very slow without the store due the costs and the XP decay on successful
recipes. Crafting leveling through deconstruction and loot will take a very long time IME.

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I expect that it will be a long-term project for most players; probably something to do while levelling a TR - amass lots of garbage equipment, deconstruct it, add this to all the ingredients you've looted this life, and use that to level crafting and maybe even make occasional useful twink gear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

On Lamannia noone runs quests to get this loot.

On Live, we'll spend a lot more time in quests than on deconstruction.


I'm not certain how the drop rates will turn out, but it's too early for 'DOOM AND GLOOM' imo. The store only blank trinket, OTOH, is very poor form.

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Unfortunately I do realize that part. But with the amount of different types of ingredients that will drop unless noted that certain ingredients drop in certain quest then it still remains up to decontructing an "insane" amount of stuff to make even the simplest stuff, not to mention something really powerful.

I really hope that the current version that is on Lama isn't the version that will go live in a few weeks.

I am trying to remain optimistic, I am a Founder and have played steadily for 5+years, I truly love and enjoy this game. Will this make me quit, not even close, but this current craft system has finally put a level of disgust in the game that has me really upset. Especially after blatantly misleading us at PAX. I truly hope that this is really just a beta crafting system cause as is, I don't think it is going to work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

On Lamannia noone runs quests to get this loot.

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I did run quests on Lamannia to try and get crafting Ingreediants. The funny thing is that I ran the entire new quest chain and not ONE ingreediant dropped in the quest. I was offered something as end reqard I believe, but nuthing in the quest chests.

On the other hand, I ran Eyes to get some items to deconstruct, and got ingreediants from those chests.

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Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy

I really don't see this crafting style being a first life first character sort of thing.

Since crafting xp doesnt reset on TR. I doubt anyone will be making anything real nice for quite awhile. Just due to the xp and materials needed.

Next life tho... You could make some wicked stuff for your twinking.

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this is my impression too ,it looks like something your not supposed to max in a week and is supposed to be something you work on your whole time as a charachter . Using vendor trash to fuel your crafting skills .

Dont agree / disagree .

I personally would like it to be pretty hard work to create a +5 holy silver khopesh of greater evil outsider bane .

And although its lower level a +1 Holy Greataxe eg is still pretty fancy bit of kit at the right level

A system of find any silver khopesh , find any +5 weapon , find any greater evil ouitsider bane weapon . Get your +5 holy GEOB . Would be too cheap for me

Recyle is inefficient. You need 1000 ings for shard and you get 30 ings by recycling the same effect. 3% rate. Should be 30%, 10x time more. Did devs misplaced decimal point?

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Originally Posted by dakkon75

Unfortunately I do realize that part. But with the amount of different types of ingredients that will drop unless noted that certain ingredients drop in certain quest then it still remains up to decontructing an "insane" amount of stuff to make even the simplest stuff, not to mention something really powerful.

I really hope that the current version that is on Lama isn't the version that will go live in a few weeks.

I am trying to remain optimistic, I am a Founder and have played steadily for 5+years, I truly love and enjoy this game. Will this make me quit, not even close, but this current craft system has finally put a level of disgust in the game that has me really upset. Especially after blatantly misleading us at PAX. I truly hope that this is really just a beta crafting system cause as is, I don't think it is going to work.

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Let me put it like this, I don't believe anyone will want anything to do with the crafting system if it's launched as is. People would rather buy from the AH, or rely on drops/end-rewards for decent loot. Considering that this new system (as it is now) is rather hostile to non-TR's and players who don't have a boatload of platinum to waste, I am thinking most players would rather make Greensteel, or go after raid loot than to sit around for hours trying to progress a crafting level.

The system really needs to be reworked.

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Originally Posted by Ziindarax

Let me put it like this, I don't believe anyone will want anything to do with the crafting system if it's launched as is. People would rather buy from the AH, or rely on drops/end-rewards for decent loot. Considering that this new system (as it is now) is rather hostile to non-TR's and players who don't have a boatload of platinum to waste, I am thinking most players would rather make Greensteel, or go after raid loot than to sit around for hours trying to progress a crafting level.

The system really needs to be reworked.

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Is it really that intensive or is it not just something you can use rather than the vednor for clearing out trash ?

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Originally Posted by bryanmeerkat

Is it really that intensive or is it not just something you can use rather than the vednor for clearing out trash ?

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Considering the horrid return from deconstruction, I would find it better to simply sell it to vendors to get platinum to use toward purchasing shroud mats from the auction house. As another person wrote, he got 30 good beams from deconstructing a holyburst weapon, and yet it costs 1,000 good beams to make that same holy burst effect; yes, it really is that intensive, illogical, and unreasonable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ziindarax

Let me put it like this, I don't believe anyone will want anything to do with the crafting system if it's launched as is. People would rather buy from the AH, or rely on drops/end-rewards for decent loot. Considering that this new system (as it is now) is rather hostile to non-TR's and players who don't have a boatload of platinum to waste, I am thinking most players would rather make Greensteel, or go after raid loot than to sit around for hours trying to progress a crafting level.

The system really needs to be reworked.

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I didn't do much research about crafting...

Actually I though that crafting would, among other things, allow new players to obtain needed basic equipment in reasonable time for their first characters, given the fact that they might miss the plat which is needed to buy things from AH. I mean things like at-level GFL, Stat+6, basic DR-breakers, etc.

As I understand from this thread this isn't the case? Crafting not really viable for new players? Just asking...

Thx,

Infant

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Originally Posted by Infant

I didn't do much research about crafting...

Actually I though that crafting would, among other things, allow new players to obtain needed basic equipment in reasonable time for their first characters, given the fact that they might miss the plat which is needed to buy things from AH. I mean things like at-level GFL, Stat+6, basic DR-breakers, etc.

As I understand from this thread this isn't the case? Crafting not really viable for new players? Just asking...

Thx,

Infant

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Not when you consider how inefficient the system is when it comes to deconstructing items; you get faaaaar less (as much as 90% fewer materials) than what you put in to imbue the effect you are removing from said item. That said, chest-loot and end-rewards alone (which is what newbies will be getting mostly unless they got someone giving them money) will not even scratch the surface of this new crafting system; to imbue anything reasonable, they would need to buy additional weapons/armors/what-have-you just to get to a level where they could craft a decent effect for their level.

With the exorbitant prices charged on both the auction house and by players, as well as the expected increase in prices on everything that can be sold on the auction house in light of this new crafting system, newbies would not be able to utilize the crafting system to the same degree as a wealthy veteran player without buying thousands of points to use toward purchasing crafting materials from the DDO store.

On the other hand, if the dev's fix/set the crafting mats to drop in a frequency comparable to dragonshards, then newbies will be able to participate just fine assuming that the craftable trinket and general crafting materials on the DDO store is a Lammania-only set-up to expedite testing and quality assurance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ziindarax

Considering the horrid return from deconstruction, I would find it better to simply sell it to vendors to get platinum to use toward purchasing shroud mats from the auction house. As another person wrote, he got 30 good beams from deconstructing a holyburst weapon, and yet it costs 1,000 good beams to make that same holy burst effect; yes, it really is that intensive, illogical, and unreasonable.

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You are basically combining about 100 items together to get a highly powerful piece of endgame loot. (~30 items with higher-tier Good affixes such as Greater Ardor 6, ~30 with higher Arcane effects like Superior Efficacy 6 for the +4, and ~30 items with Chaos-aligned effects for Greater Lawful Outsider Bane).

Vendoring 100 min level 12-18 items won't get you enough plat to buy a greensteel blank, let alone a decent item.

The leveling of crafting may be bad, but the actual amount of materials required to make something truly top-notch - in this example a +4 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of GLOB is pretty fair, IMO.

My opinions might change once we see what's required to level crafting in practice. If levelling 1-75 requires materials from 1000 deconstructions, I can live with that. 10000 - nope.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

You are basically combining about 100 items together to get a highly powerful piece of endgame loot. (~30 items with higher-tier Good affixes such as Greater Ardor 6, ~30 with higher Arcane effects like Superior Efficacy 6 for the +4, and ~30 items with Chaos-aligned effects for Greater Lawful Outsider Bane).

Vendoring 100 min level 12-18 items won't get you enough plat to buy a greensteel blank, let alone a decent item.

The leveling of crafting may be bad, but the actual amount of materials required to make something truly top-notch - in this example a +4 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of GLOB is pretty fair, IMO.

My opinions might change once we see what's required to level crafting in practice. If levelling 1-75 requires materials from 1000 deconstructions, I can live with that. 10000 - nope.

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I would ask you to consider this from the perspective of a newbie - I know vets like you or me could easily afford 1,000 deconstructions, but what about the newbie who is on his first character (presumably 28-point build)? The newbie is not going to get one thousand weapons of a consistent crafting school from end-rewards and chest-loot through-out the life of their character, much less from buying things from the auction house.

New players wont have a stock of higher loot to provide raw materials to craft with at a greater rate than their lowbie trash items.

New players wont have the time to burn sitting in the crafting hall for hours. Not when they could level up in half the time needed to gain enough crafting xp... assuming they had the materials to craft and get xp... to make an item for a level they passed days ago.

Its SO not geared to new players.