Post your Heroic XP rants here!

Just a shorty and wanna hear opinions on this but here is mine. For as many toons as we can have heroic TRs are slow. They feel slow and they are fairly grindy to me. We wont be getting account wide Past lives so why not make heroic lives a touch shorter. Bring down the 3.8m to 3m xp per life. Never would make financial sense yada yada but for weekend warriors such as myself it would make it feel alot more rewarding to play. I feel the pacing is much much slower than epics, even epics who dont have first time benefits.

Completionist folks would be able to make more alts, regular folks would be able to maybe get close to a single completionist in a couple years or so. SSG usually paces out past lives faster than most will get them so why not? For those who are concerned they usually knock out their lives almost immediately so it wouldnt change much on their end.

Idk feels like a rant in some ways, but SSG needs to realize that the cost to entry is very high, the time sink is also high for most and for as many lives as you can run on just a singular toon, speeding it up a touch wouldnt hurt. They have done some in the past to help us out but with 40 coming in the upcoming years with im sure many more TR treadmilling options, i doubt we will be hung out to dry.

Or just have an alternate VIP option that costs a lil more and gives 20-25% XP bonus. That would make me happy, happy to spend more supporting a game i enjoy. Just not the tail end of heroic lives it seems .... it feels the most grindy at that point. Farming for gear at cap, the whole epic leveling process and other things feel less grindy than quarter 4 of heroic lives.

Ok i feel somewhat better! Hope everyone is having a good day and is having fun!


*EDIT*: Post was meant more so to be just a meaningless vent originally so all thats listed up top is just slight frustration with the life im on and my general dislike for Q4 of heroic lives. I know they arent bad and there is plenty of xp! Just giving folks a heads up.

On a side note a double life for double XP seems pretty cool! Pairing Racial/Class past lives with eachother!

I don't think Heroic lives feel grindy to me?

I often miss running quests I like because I outlevel them.
I generally will have to pick a chain I like and do it every third life.
Sometimes I skip Threnal.
Sometimes I skip the Desert (though I will get them on Epic).
Sometimes I skip Sorrowdusk and CO6.
Sometimes I skip "Attack on Stormreach" stuff.
Sometimes I skip Necro 1,2,3 (I always do Necro 4 and LotD)
I miss out on some of my favorite stand alone quests. Caverns of Korromar, Gwylan's Stand, Stormcleave, The Pit, Tear of Dhakaan.

I have wished that there was a "double life" option where XP was doubled and we could get a Heroic Life and a Racial Life.
But in reality, I just pick different quests/chains on each life.

My advice to anyone who is burned out on heroic leveling...quit taking the same TR route. Quit basing your route on XP/Minute. Play some quests you really enjoy even though the XP/min isn't the best.

I could get behind a bigger VIP XP bonus for sure though. Even if it just meant to me that I get to TR faster.
If they increased the VIP bonus, they would make MORE money off me.
Reason: I don't buy XP pots, but I do buy TR Hearts. I never intentionally farm Heart Seeds or Tokens of the Twelve. I also buy "Wish for Racial Memories"; Though I am getting outta my comfort zone and trying new builds, so that may stop happening.

TLDR:
My advice to anyone who is burned out on heroic leveling...quit taking the same TR route. Quit basing your route on XP/Minute. Play some quests you really enjoy even though the XP/min isn't the best.

I agree with Bacab here. It is actually nice that I don't have to run the same set of quests every life.

However, I will also point out that it is more fun to do Heroic lives with a group of people as well.

I also alternate characters when I TR, so one time I do it with this character and another life will be with a different character - different goals and different priorities.

I do have a few side project characters that I also run.

I think there is a lot of emphasis on getting past lives, but there is more to the game, say having characters for running raids or Epic/Legendary content. It is one of the reason I've always played multiple characters, I like getting on and thinking what do I want to be tonight and then being able to play that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bagel99

Just a shorty and wanna hear opinions on this but here is mine. For as many toons as we can have heroic TRs are slow. They feel slow and they are fairly grindy to me. We wont be getting account wide Past lives so why not make heroic lives a touch shorter. Bring down the 3.8m to 3m xp per life. Never would make financial sense yada yada but for weekend warriors such as myself it would make it feel alot more rewarding to play. I feel the pacing is much much slower than epics, even epics who dont have first time benefits.

Completionist folks would be able to make more alts, regular folks would be able to maybe get close to a single completionist in a year or so. SSG usually paces out past lives faster than most will get them so why not? For those who are concerned they usually knock out their lives almost immediately so it wouldnt change much on their end.

Idk feels like a rant in some ways, but SSG needs to realize that the cost to entry is very high, the time sink is also high for most and for as many lives as you can run on just a singular toon, speeding it up a touch wouldnt hurt. They have done some in the past to help us out but with 40 coming in the upcoming years with im sure many more TR treadmilling options, i doubt we will be hung out to dry.

Or just have an alternate VIP option that costs a lil more and gives 20-25% XP bonus. That would make me happy, happy to spend more supporting a game i enjoy. Just not the tail end of heroic lives it seems .... it feels the most grindy at that point. Farming for gear at cap, the whole epic leveling process and other things feel less grindy than quarter 4 of heroic lives.

Ok i feel somewhat better! Hope everyone is having a good day and is having fun!

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You can go VIP & run pots

VIP already needs help not a higher price point


Have to agree with others Heroic XP is so abundant compared to before it’s already been lowered lives can be very fast if you have the free time can be done before the TR timer is up with no pots running

Epic should feel like less it’s 10 levels compared to 20

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bagel99

Just a shorty and wanna hear opinions on this but here is mine. For as many toons as we can have heroic TRs are slow. They feel slow and they are fairly grindy to me. We wont be getting account wide Past lives so why not make heroic lives a touch shorter. Bring down the 3.8m to 3m xp per life. Never would make financial sense yada yada but for weekend warriors such as myself it would make it feel alot more rewarding to play. I feel the pacing is much much slower than epics, even epics who dont have first time benefits.

Completionist folks would be able to make more alts, regular folks would be able to maybe get close to a single completionist in a year or so. SSG usually paces out past lives faster than most will get them so why not? For those who are concerned they usually knock out their lives almost immediately so it wouldnt change much on their end.

Idk feels like a rant in some ways, but SSG needs to realize that the cost to entry is very high, the time sink is also high for most and for as many lives as you can run on just a singular toon, speeding it up a touch wouldnt hurt. They have done some in the past to help us out but with 40 coming in the upcoming years with im sure many more TR treadmilling options, i doubt we will be hung out to dry.

Or just have an alternate VIP option that costs a lil more and gives 20-25% XP bonus. That would make me happy, happy to spend more supporting a game i enjoy. Just not the tail end of heroic lives it seems .... it feels the most grindy at that point. Farming for gear at cap, the whole epic leveling process and other things feel less grindy than quarter 4 of heroic lives.

Ok i feel somewhat better! Hope everyone is having a good day and is having fun!

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So level 20 used to be 4,378,500 was reduced to 3,800,000 which is just over 13% reduction while the game has added over 30% heroic xp now lets further reduce the heroic xp by just over 21%. If anything a return to the old xp system is in order. ( oh nooooooo )

or base xp in heroic content nerfed by 20 - 25% is that going to be ok..... ( I doubt it )


Even on my multi-life character I almost never go much past a level 16 quest to cap. Now I take the xp from the quests that give it freely and easily. I do mix it up but there are just quests I do not take out of my rotation.

I am not going to put any more effort into gaining a past life than is needed.

There is more than enough heroic xp to quickly gain past lives by taking the time to learn what is needed and from where. I make it to 20 running about 100 quests


If you run all the saga quests and collect them at the end of your heroic life

Stone to level 3 run R1 all the way

Saltmarsh - 20k
Feywild - 29k
TBC - 26k
IoD - 29k
Ravenloft - 46k
GH - 46k
Sharn 1 - 46k
Sharn 2 - 46K

285K saved and ready for the taking 5% voice 5% guild that is over 300k so level cap is only 3.5mil already this does not take into account if you are burning a 5% to 50% pot and of course as new sagas are added the xp level cap keeps dropping

Drop a 50 Pot and those sagas are over 450K dropping xp cap below 3.4mil

Knowing when and where to burn a pot should not be overlooked you don't have to burn a 50 in heroics to level quickly in fact you don't need one at all even on a third plus life if you make a plan and stick to it and tweak it as quests are added in

There are two more heroic sagas available but they are a lot more work than they are worth I don't go to Estar unless it is for epics

Just try to enjoy the game and the leveling won't feel like a grind. If you are not enjoying it take a break. There are also XP potions and Otto's Boxes if you want to skip parts of the leveling process.
If you make your hobby feel like work, you will just end up frustrated.

I would like a mode that requires double heroic xp to level up but you get both a racial and class past life.

I think the way to handle this in the modern era is account shared past lives where you have to unlock the power per character.

First life characters would get no benefit, but characters with 1 past life unlock up to 1 stack of each past life feat you have earned on the account. 2nd life characters get up to 2 stacks, 3rd life get the full 3 stacks.

Completionist feats would remain the domain of a character who actually has all the feats directly (probably reduce racial to 1x of each for racial completionist on the character so long as you still have 3 stacks total on the account).

Epic characters would still need a full set of epic completionist past lives on top of this since you need 4x to cap out ED points, but they need to offer a different epic heart that lets you reset favor/first time bonuses as well.

I think reducing XP per life is the wrong solution, but it might be better than what we have even so, and at least would represent a recognition of the problem.

I'll just say that Everquest wasn't as grindy as DDO is to fully unlock a single character. When people suggest things are A-OK as they are it makes me wonder how much of the sentiment is from people who either did quite a few lives with otto's boxes or who are perhaps subconsciously gatekeeping their achievements from the "riff raff". It makes no sense to me. And I say this as someone who has a full trio of the completionist feats on a single character, but who remembers what a grind it really was.

You can have fun playing the game and working on a character and still feel a tremendous sense of fatigue at the notion of even thinking about starting the process for a 2nd character. I feel like once someone goes through the process of accumulating all those past lives they've earned the right to dabble and play with it without having to wipe away their current build every time they want to try a different build.

They can monetize it by selling "Bloodline Character Slots/Slot Upgrades" to create or upgrade a character to be part of your "Account Bloodline" with an account surname that displays on upgraded character slots and they would be the only characters that contribute to and benefit from the bloodline (i.e. past lives).

That way all these people who don't want it don't have to use it.

Its ok everyone, just a small rant, just a touch frustrated getting the last 3 levels i need. I know well enough that the XP is there and ready for me to grab. Just find the tail end of heroics feeling slightly lackluster. I usually never play straight casters so this may be why, im almost always melee so quests take a fair bit longer than if i were a sorc, wiz, alch or druid etc.

All in all just a thread to vent to the void!

ALTHOUGH i do agree on two things IF past lives were to become account based i do think the XP a life should go up as 1 would be doing the work of many. Do i think this is the approach ... no. It would be cool to have an account based system to earn some small rewards that would follow the path style similar to how reaper is going to end up apply to your account. Would be neat to have a small headstart on alts!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmoustakas

I would like a mode that requires double heroic xp to level up but you get both a racial and class past life.

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I would actually be onboard with this ... would be amazing too cause i think it would be nice to kill two bird with one stone!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bagel99

Just a shorty and wanna hear opinions on this but here is mine. For as many toons as we can have heroic TRs are slow. They feel slow and they are fairly grindy to me. We wont be getting account wide Past lives so why not make heroic lives a touch shorter. Bring down the 3.8m to 3m xp per life. Never would make financial sense yada yada but for weekend warriors such as myself it would make it feel alot more rewarding to play. I feel the pacing is much much slower than epics, even epics who dont have first time benefits.

Completionist folks would be able to make more alts, regular folks would be able to maybe get close to a single completionist in a year or so. SSG usually paces out past lives faster than most will get them so why not? For those who are concerned they usually knock out their lives almost immediately so it wouldnt change much on their end.

Idk feels like a rant in some ways, but SSG needs to realize that the cost to entry is very high, the time sink is also high for most and for as many lives as you can run on just a singular toon, speeding it up a touch wouldnt hurt. They have done some in the past to help us out but with 40 coming in the upcoming years with im sure many more TR treadmilling options, i doubt we will be hung out to dry.

Or just have an alternate VIP option that costs a lil more and gives 20-25% XP bonus. That would make me happy, happy to spend more supporting a game i enjoy. Just not the tail end of heroic lives it seems .... it feels the most grindy at that point. Farming for gear at cap, the whole epic leveling process and other things feel less grindy than quarter 4 of heroic lives.

Ok i feel somewhat better! Hope everyone is having a good day and is having fun!

---

There is SO MUCH heroic XP out there. I don't understand at all how players can struggle. It's mind boggling to me.

With the new additions of IoD and other areas it's even easier to get double capped on the way up and not have to worry about XP issues.
It's literally all about the route you run.

All the time all I see are players running quests 2 levels under the normal quest level. Not even at level. That's going to cause issues for you.

Don't even get me going on 18-20. There's 2 sagas and sharn, the cogs, the sharn docs. Plus A TON MORE. So when I see players saying there no XP at lvl 18 I just scratch my head and laugh.

Heroics mostly feel slow and boring for me since there are too many old quests that are poor- annoying mechanics or low xp, boring design - sewers, sewers everywhere. (and generic crpyts, warehouses, caves). And a good deal of quests are overplayed by me because of the bank char coinlord and house K farms.

Epics and new quests, especially expansions, feel much better in comparison.

Another problem is not enough grouping and no incentive to do challenging difficulties (and you'd want a group for that anyway) since heroic rxp is so low, especially pre lvl ~15.

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life. It would take some work as it's counter to our current system (as this would be something at the start of a life vs at the end). Again, not committing to anything, but I'll bring this up.

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

Keep those ideas flowing. I love reading all the feedback, especially when you all keep it in a positive light looking towards the future.


And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

if you lower the heroic xp required to hit level 20, it'll increase the frequency of people stuck waiting on the 3 day reincarnation timer to pass, which might decrease xp pot sales, since why pay to hurry up just so you can wait?

I have said this before, multiple times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldyGopher

It is not an uncommon quote and one that I think applies to many of the current issues with DDO.

Reduce the XP to Level Heroically
The symptom: Casual Players, New Players, Old Players, Vets, really anyone who doesn't zerg takes to long to reach the heroic cap at level 20.

The cause: If you don't run a specific set of quests that maximize your XP or attempt to complete some/many of the optionals even in those specific quests you lower your XP per Minute so much it takes much longer to level in heroics.

Treating the Symptom: Lower XP Requirements to reach the Heroic Level Cap.

Addressing the Problem: Multiple Bloggers, Player Council Members and just plain vanilla players have done the work to identify Quests and Optionals (including Ransack and Conquest) where the XP per Minute is unacceptable (low); with the other two categories being acceptable and high. Approximately 40% of the quests fall into the unacceptable low category. I identified 153 quests in my last go around.
Free to Play Quests almost universally need an XP increase.

Running on R1 just zerging the top 3 or 4 quests at each level in terms of XP per Minute will result in greater than 80% of the XP required to reach the next level (assuming basic XP boosts). Running some popular, but lower XP per minute quests is a double whammy for players. First it takes longer to run the quests and second you have to run more quests taking even longer.

An example using Level 8 Quests, not including pots, VIP or other XP increasing bonuses (voice/tomes/shrines), run at R1.
High XP - Spies in the House, Tomb of the Shadow King, Libram of the Six, Stomrvauld's Mine. 24 Minutes Zerging earning ~100,000 XP
Unacceptable XP - Stormcleave, Haunted Library, Captives of the Cult, Thrask Arena. 45 Minutes Zerging earning ~60,000 XP

Just moving the 9 or 10 quests at Level 8 up from the unacceptable level of XP to an acceptable level increases the XP of the four quests I listed by ~45,000 XP and ~75,000 for all 9 quests and yet it doesn't change or effect the XP the hard core zergers.

The other part of the equation is looking at optionals and there added XP Value.

In Stormcleave Outpost there are 10 optional encounter varying in XP but worth 95% bonus to the base XP. How many get run by the Zergers? One maybe two on a hard core Zerg, sometime three or four because of the XP worth. The rest are not worth the zergers time. Yet how often do no zergers stick their head in to the caves to see if one of the Rare Optional Spawns, for a chance at 400 XP. To me Rare Optionals should never be worth less than the "mandatory" optionals (ones that are completed on the main path, like break the six boxes or return the 12 stolen storage boxes in Stormcleave). If something takes you off the main path of a quest, it needs to be worth the time in XP or Loot. Too many are not.

For the record I do not think there should ever be any rare optionals in quests, I have long argued against it. I think they should be more like mini quests with a decent amount of optional XP, ie at least 25%.

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and I am sure I will say it again.

*shuffles in with a cane and waves it around*
People forget that not only did it take more xp in the past, but there also was no bravery bonus. It litterally took more than double the amount of time to get a life done back when the cap was 20. Then came bravery bonus. You also had to be careful not to break your streak! Then they let you pause it, but you had to remember to unpause it. Then, current era, they just said screw it, bravery bonus for all constantly, no work to it.

/grandpa voice off

Seriously, though. Heroic lives aren't that bad. On top of that, it looks like they're moving toward archetypes going forward, and those are optional. As someone with over 160 past on my main, I'm happy to see past lives I can take or leave without loosing completionist.

Having started working seriously on alts, I see just how daunting a task it is. The important thing is, DO NOT MAKE A JOB OUT OF DDO. There are a million and one ways to play, but there is only one way I will criticize others' play styles. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong.

I know I risk being accused of gatekeeping, but hear me out. We live in a world of instant gratification. Name another MMO where you can put in years of hard work, take a break for a year, then come back and have all of your past labors mean something. If PL's can be earned in a day, the satisfaction you feel will diminish.

A couple years ago when I earned my racial completionist, it was one of the most gratifying feelings in my entire life. Years of work, finally paid off. Call me pathetic, call me what you will, but I will never forget how amazing it was to finally play at cap after earning all my past lives. If I'd done it in a few months, I doubt it would have been nearly as rewarding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoldyGopher

I have said this before, multiple times.

https://forums.ddo.com/forums/images...quote_icon.png Originally Posted by GoldyGopher https://forums.ddo.com/forums/images...post-right.png
It is not an uncommon quote and one that I think applies to many of the current issues with DDO.

Reduce the XP to Level Heroically
The symptom: Casual Players, New Players, Old Players, Vets, really anyone who doesn't zerg takes to long to reach the heroic cap at level 20.

The cause: If you don't run a specific set of quests that maximize your XP or attempt to complete some/many of the optionals even in those specific quests you lower your XP per Minute so much it takes much longer to level in heroics.

Treating the Symptom: Lower XP Requirements to reach the Heroic Level Cap.

Addressing the Problem: Multiple Bloggers, Player Council Members and just plain vanilla players have done the work to identify Quests and Optionals (including Ransack and Conquest) where the XP per Minute is unacceptable (low); with the other two categories being acceptable and high. Approximately 40% of the quests fall into the unacceptable low category. I identified 153 quests in my last go around.
Free to Play Quests almost universally need an XP increase.

Running on R1 just zerging the top 3 or 4 quests at each level in terms of XP per Minute will result in greater than 80% of the XP required to reach the next level (assuming basic XP boosts). Running some popular, but lower XP per minute quests is a double whammy for players. First it takes longer to run the quests and second you have to run more quests taking even longer.

An example using Level 8 Quests, not including pots, VIP or other XP increasing bonuses (voice/tomes/shrines), run at R1.
High XP - Spies in the House, Tomb of the Shadow King, Libram of the Six, Stomrvauld's Mine. 24 Minutes Zerging earning ~100,000 XP
Unacceptable XP - Stormcleave, Haunted Library, Captives of the Cult, Thrask Arena. 45 Minutes Zerging earning ~60,000 XP

Just moving the 9 or 10 quests at Level 8 up from the unacceptable level of XP to an acceptable level increases the XP of the four quests I listed by ~45,000 XP and ~75,000 for all 9 quests and yet it doesn't change or effect the XP the hard core zergers.

The other part of the equation is looking at optionals and there added XP Value.

In Stormcleave Outpost there are 10 optional encounter varying in XP but worth 95% bonus to the base XP. How many get run by the Zergers? One maybe two on a hard core Zerg, sometime three or four because of the XP worth. The rest are not worth the zergers time. Yet how often do no zergers stick their head in to the caves to see if one of the Rare Optional Spawns, for a chance at 400 XP. To me Rare Optionals should never be worth less than the "mandatory" optionals (ones that are completed on the main path, like break the six boxes or return the 12 stolen storage boxes in Stormcleave). If something takes you off the main path of a quest, it needs to be worth the time in XP or Loot. Too many are not.

For the record I do not think there should ever be any rare optionals in quests, I have long argued against it. I think they should be more like mini quests with a decent amount of optional XP, ie at least 25%.

and I am sure I will say it again.

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Meh, if your goal is to just play how you want, then your goal isn't gaining past lives quickly, so there's no need to change anything. Just continue playing how you want and stop worrying about what someone else is doing.

If your goal is to gain past lives quickly then you will need to do things to optimize how quickly you gain xp.

If your goal is to just play how you want, but to also not allow anyone else to gain TRs faster than you, no matter how much they try to optimize their game play to gain past lives, then you're just being ridiculous.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Deslen

*shuffles in with a cane and waves it around*
People forget that not only did it take more xp in the past, but there also was no bravery bonus. It litterally took more than double the amount of time to get a life done back when the cap was 20. Then came bravery bonus. You also had to be careful not to break your streak! Then they let you pause it, but you had to remember to unpause it. Then, current era, they just said screw it, bravery bonus for all constantly, no work to it.

/grandpa voice off

Seriously, though. Heroic lives aren't that bad. On top of that, it looks like they're moving toward archetypes going forward, and those are optional. As someone with over 160 past on my main, I'm happy to see past lives I can take or leave without loosing completionist.

Having started working seriously on alts, I see just how daunting a task it is. The important thing is, DO NOT MAKE A JOB OUT OF DDO. There are a million and one ways to play, but there is only one way I will criticize others' play styles. If you're not having fun, you're doing it wrong.

I know I risk being accused of gatekeeping, but hear me out. We live in a world of instant gratification. Name another MMO where you can put in years of hard work, take a break for a year, then come back and have all of your past labors mean something. If PL's can be earned in a day, the satisfaction you feel will diminish.

A couple years ago when I earned my racial completionist, it was one of the most gratifying feelings in my entire life. Years of work, finally paid off. Call me pathetic, call me what you will, but I will never forget how amazing it was to finally play at cap after earning all my past lives. If I'd done it in a few months, I doubt it would have been nearly as rewarding.

---

agree 100%

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bagel99

Just a shorty and wanna hear opinions on this but here is mine. For as many toons as we can have heroic TRs are slow. They feel slow and they are fairly grindy to me. We wont be getting account wide Past lives so why not make heroic lives a touch shorter. Bring down the 3.8m to 3m xp per life. Never would make financial sense yada yada but for weekend warriors such as myself it would make it feel alot more rewarding to play. I feel the pacing is much much slower than epics, even epics who dont have first time benefits.

Completionist folks would be able to make more alts, regular folks would be able to maybe get close to a single completionist in a year or so. SSG usually paces out past lives faster than most will get them so why not? For those who are concerned they usually knock out their lives almost immediately so it wouldnt change much on their end.

Idk feels like a rant in some ways, but SSG needs to realize that the cost to entry is very high, the time sink is also high for most and for as many lives as you can run on just a singular toon, speeding it up a touch wouldnt hurt. They have done some in the past to help us out but with 40 coming in the upcoming years with im sure many more TR treadmilling options, i doubt we will be hung out to dry.

Or just have an alternate VIP option that costs a lil more and gives 20-25% XP bonus. That would make me happy, happy to spend more supporting a game i enjoy. Just not the tail end of heroic lives it seems .... it feels the most grindy at that point. Farming for gear at cap, the whole epic leveling process and other things feel less grindy than quarter 4 of heroic lives.

Ok i feel somewhat better! Hope everyone is having a good day and is having fun!

---

I am with you on that grindy feeling. Levels 11 to 17 are just so freaking long and boring. Granted I am a casual player but when I play I play efficiently and unless I am willing to grind the hell out of a couple of quests to try and speed things up (boring) it just feels like WORK not a game.

I don't understand why the XP changes still in this day and age. Epic TR's are the same XP regardless of how many times you have been to 30, it's time for heroic to get the same treatment. I say make it an even 2 million XP and call it a day. Honestly I could care less about the hardcore "experience" or "rewards" any more it's just so ... too much and too often ... but I still find myself playing on HC over my actual server because the leveling is at a rate that I can actually feel a sense of advancement.

Considering that 1-20 grind is for Heroics and Racials and they are exclusive dropping it a bit would be a really good idea IMHO particularly for those who solo

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmoustakas

I would like a mode that requires double heroic xp to level up but you get both a racial and class past life.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life. It would take some work as it's counter to our current system (as this would be something at the start of a life vs at the end). Again, not committing to anything, but I'll bring this up.

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

Keep those ideas flowing. I love reading all the feedback, especially when you all keep it in a positive light looking towards the future.


And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

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Maybe Legendary Races that start at 20 or 25 and have to go to level 40 to obtain a racial past life and class past life might be easier than rebuilding the current system with the same racial past life and heroic class benefit?

This would also allow those who do not like heroics to enjoy epic content more

To me, the TR system offers a nearly endless playtime. I do not see the point in the way OP plays. Grinding for all lives, then the fun starts? If you do not enjoy playing now, you will not magically enjoy playing a completionist. Also, setting your eyes on those 150+ pl is made to drive you crazy. Luckily, the improvements are incremental, you enjoy every small next step. Again, if you do not, you will not enjoy playing your 150+ pl lives character. If you are not enjoying the game now, you won't later. You can as well just stop now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life. It would take some work as it's counter to our current system (as this would be something at the start of a life vs at the end). Again, not committing to anything, but I'll bring this up.

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

Keep those ideas flowing. I love reading all the feedback, especially when you all keep it in a positive light looking towards the future.


And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

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So I am really interested in this double life thing. I will never be "competitive" with my chars because I just don't have that much time. But I would like to have some racial and class past lives, but to be honest that just isnt gonna happen.

At least with this 2 at once, I could get some of that action!

Re: EXP, I have been keeping 1+ in the bank at all times, and just running content at +1 elite bravery until I run out of "room" on my second level, take it, and then continue at +2 to the mish level. It isn't fast, but it isn't slow, and it gives me time to collect the gear I want, and have fun with the quests I like. I have a mountain of Ravenloft, IoD, and Feywild gear, but no place to put it. I think I will actually get Sharn after all, but this style of leveling has left me with 2.5 sets of saga exp to take if I ever get "stuck". I don't exp pot, and but do have a greater xp tome, and thats it!

Filthy casual is casual :D

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Originally Posted by Jynxxx

Maybe Legendary Races that start at 20 or 25 and have to go to level 40 to obtain a racial past life and class past life might be easier than rebuilding the current system with the same racial past life and heroic class benefit?

This would also allow those who do not like heroics to enjoy epic content more

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I like it, but if Iconic races and reincarnations were for Epic, then perhaps Mythic races and reincarnations could be for Legendary?


But I would still like to see Legendary Reincarnations that take you from 40 to 30, granting you a legendary past life.

These Mythic Races could start out at 20, and Mythic Reincarnations could take you back to 20, granting you an Epic past life and a Mythic racial past life.

I suppose more options wouldn't hurt. I'd like to see the option to double or even triple the amount of experience required in order to get more than one heroic/racial past life at a time. 7.6 million experience for 2 lives would enable me to play far more quests per life without feeling like I'm skipping almost everything or playing quests for zero experience. I used to play to 20 and then get 2 or 3 epic past lives before I did a heroic/racial TR, but with Epic past lives finished there is no option other than to either skip most of the quests or play the majority of quests for zero experience.

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Originally Posted by Martininice

To me, the TR system offers a nearly endless playtime. I do not see the point in the way OP plays. Grinding for all lives, then the fun starts? If you do not enjoy playing now, you will not magically enjoy playing a completionist. Also, setting your eyes on those 150+ pl is made to drive you crazy. Luckily, the improvements are incremental, you enjoy every small next step. Again, if you do not, you will not enjoy playing your 150+ pl lives character. If you are not enjoying the game now, you won't later. You can as well just stop now.

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I dont actually play with the goal of completionist funnily enough, but im working on my racial TRs so i can have fun playing my favorite style of toons which are AA splashes! Also the original post was made mostly out of slight frustration with my current build/life combo. I noted previously that i understand xp is ok as it is etc.

Although i would love to see optional xp be reworked in a meaningful manner!

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Originally Posted by Ereshkigal

I like it, but if Iconic races and reincarnations were for Epic, then perhaps Mythic races and reincarnations could be for Legendary?


But I would still like to see Legendary Reincarnations that take you from 40 to 30, granting you a legendary past life.

These Mythic Races could start out at 20, and Mythic Reincarnations could take you back to 20, granting you an Epic past life and a Mythic racial past life.

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Mythic races .... can we finally get a minotaur?! Would be cool to have them use Greataxes or something in one hand or something! They would have to be pretty slow though.

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Originally Posted by Bagel99

Mythic races .... can we finally get a minotaur?! Would be cool to have them use Greataxes or something in one hand or something! They would have to be pretty slow though.

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Would be cool but I think being slow would movement wise make them unplayable if you can’t keep up with the party

Attack animations could be slower would be fine

Just because it's faster to get HPL now it does not mean HPXP does not need re balance.

I see many comments in line with: "if you wanna have fun and also get many PL's you need to stop having fun".

That's rude toward those who (SHOCKINGLY) play to have fun.

So if i wanna get completionist I need to stop having fun, because zerging is boring and unfun?

That's quite arrogant stance from zerg crowd that harms everyone who's not zerging.

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life. It would take some work as it's counter to our current system (as this would be something at the start of a life vs at the end). Again, not committing to anything, but I'll bring this up.

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

Keep those ideas flowing. I love reading all the feedback, especially when you all keep it in a positive light looking towards the future.


And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

---

My suggestion, don't touch needed XP for heroic leveling, but increase rewards for optionals and make it so elite gives same first time bonus as Reaper, it's a slap in face when XP optional that doubles quest completion time even with zerg mentality gives mere 20% base quest XP.

With all possible past lives DDO has, it has started to heavily punish anyone who wants lots of past lives, bu also wants to have fun playing.

With all the legendary content that gives practically zero bonus for non legendary play you're making sure to force players to choose whether they wanna play leggy content or grind past lives.

I solve that by having 2 active toons, but every hour on my capped toon that I play feels like a waste on time because i could get another level on my main that on TR train.

Why do you punish players so?

I don't expect PL every 3 days, but don't punish me for having fun.

and to those who are "you need to change your playstyle" I only comment this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0OXH95erds

Xp rebalance would be good like others mentioned in the thread. A lot of quests give too little xp to be worthwhile. Increasing that would make leveling have more variety.

Another issue I have with heroic is that you basically have to play it otherwise you don't reset your favor for DP and rxp bonus and progression comes to a halt.

I'd like to see a way to stay at cap and reset all your favor and first time bonuses.

Sure there are iconics and 15-20 is fast when you have zero completed quests and can do all the good 13-16 quests and cap. But there are not that many useful iconic PL and many of the iconics don't mesh with a class (like there's no sorc iconic). And you cannot get racial PLs with iconics, racials are by far the biggest grind in DDO.

30+ lives to get a decent amount of racial points for some builds - just way too much grinding IMHO.

I'd like to see XP distributed better within quests and other places. I think part of what makes it feel grindy for me is that you only are getting significant XP when you get to the end of the quest. So essentially you don't feel incentivized to stay in the quest and do objectives all the time you spend playing feels like your wasting time unless your rushing as fast as you can to the end. I would like to see more rewards given out while playing rather than just lump sum at the end of quests. In a way the current system is kind of like the more you play the less you get.

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Originally Posted by Oxarhamar

Would be cool but I think being slow would movement wise make them unplayable if you can’t keep up with the party

Attack animations could be slower would be fine

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thats what i meant!

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Originally Posted by Martininice

To me, the TR system offers a nearly endless playtime. I do not see the point in the way OP plays. Grinding for all lives, then the fun starts? If you do not enjoy playing now, you will not magically enjoy playing a completionist. Also, setting your eyes on those 150+ pl is made to drive you crazy. Luckily, the improvements are incremental, you enjoy every small next step. Again, if you do not, you will not enjoy playing your 150+ pl lives character. If you are not enjoying the game now, you won't later. You can as well just stop now.

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Totally in agreement here. If you don't like the Heroic grind process that is not going to magically get better at some point.

Some of the longtime players are on-again off-again precisely because doing the same quests over and over again becomes tedious and yet doing new quests is much slower and why are we grinding like this again?

The sentence above probably addresses a significant part of the long-term burnout that has depleted the player base over the years. Yes, there are people who will happily grind forever on whatever wheels are put in place however those are not normal players and the pool of them is small and dwindles over time. It's long past time for SSG to prioritize everybody else and let those poor souls go.

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Originally Posted by Bagel99

thats what i meant!

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Then we are on the same page with it cool idea

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Originally Posted by Bagel99

Completionist folks would be able to make more alts, regular folks would be able to maybe get close to a single completionist in a couple years or so. SSG usually paces out past lives faster than most will get them so why not? For those who are concerned they usually knock out their lives almost immediately so it wouldnt change much on their end.

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I am no way bashing you OP, but this was a problem right before F2P. When there was no TR'ing in the game, you could just create alts. No real progression for characters once they hit a limit.

Speculation With the "possible" change coming to reaper, will that mean I can stop grinding RP, and just put my main in the nursing home? Noting left to do but create alts?

I am all for SSG giving you a million lives per TR, but it has always been an issue trying to keep things level between the guys playing a few hours a week and the full time player with more time to devote.

PS I love heroic content so I will continue to TR and have fun leveling without getting a PL. Don't take this as a bash at the weekend crowd.

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Originally Posted by Bagel99

Mythic races .... can we finally get a minotaur?! Would be cool to have them use Greataxes or something in one hand or something! They would have to be pretty slow though.

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Mythic would be like Iconic most likely just variants of existing races.

While I don't really think heroic XP needs to be cut across the board, I would like to see the full XP penalty take longer to ramp up. If it took (for example) ten lives for it to hit the same penalty you currently get on life three, it would make it a heck of a lot easier to get a new character up to "par" for one basic build theme, be it melee DPS, martial ranged DPS, caster or whatever.

The two lives for double XP option might also help. That way when you are still filling yourself out with +5 or +8 tomes, you could gain an additional benefit from running almost every single quest in heroics. Though I personally almost never make it past a +2 tome!

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life. It would take some work as it's counter to our current system (as this would be something at the start of a life vs at the end). Again, not committing to anything, but I'll bring this up.

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

Keep those ideas flowing. I love reading all the feedback, especially when you all keep it in a positive light looking towards the future.


And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

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this is great news. The double life already happens with iconics so maybe not too far off!

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life. It would take some work as it's counter to our current system (as this would be something at the start of a life vs at the end). Again, not committing to anything, but I'll bring this up.

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

Keep those ideas flowing. I love reading all the feedback, especially when you all keep it in a positive light looking towards the future.


And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

---

love you bro

I would be down for this "Double Life" thing as well as honestly one of the main reasons I always burn out is the constant gear roulette that comes with the fast leveling in heroics.
I definitely don't think it should take longer to reach level 20 as there's already so many past-lives to get with more constantly being added, but if you could knock out two lives at once then that would give us the benefits of leveling slowly, but keep the rewards the same. My only worry would be whether there are enough quests to do for first time bonus.

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Originally Posted by Deslen

I know I risk being accused of gatekeeping, but hear me out. We live in a world of instant gratification. Name another MMO where you can put in years of hard work, take a break for a year, then come back and have all of your past labors mean something. If PL's can be earned in a day, the satisfaction you feel will diminish.

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This right here is the only reason I am playing DDO. Normally, when I leave a game, I am gone forever. But in DDO there is always a reason to come back. Progress stays with you and is meaningful in a way that just isn't the case in games where almost all of the power comes from the equipment found in the latest expansion. As far as I am concerned there can never be too many past lives (and I say that as a person that has never come close to having all the lives at any point in time and probably never will come close to having them all).

Heh.... I am probably in the minority here, but whatever -

I would be willing to buy something more expensive than the sovereign potions (I.E. the stones by themselves at a discounted price; the boxes IMO are not a good deal due to the extra junk and redundant pet) if it meant having to spend less weeks TRing. I know most people are probably looking for something to mitigate what is already there without having to pay a ton of money. But I'm weird and hey, my wallet is open.

I know Sev is going to be looking at people like me and say: "But you might get bored and leave sooner and I don't want to lose you as a player when you may stick around and buy some more stuff. And cash is tight right now and I need to focus on LOTRO so just deal with it till I have more flexibility". So yeah, I understand. But look my job is getting busy, I am nearly recovering from head trauma (I had a concussion 2 years ago and this game helped me deal with that btw). So, I don't know if I can keep playing like the way I was in 2022. If they can help me experience having a "complete character" sooner, I'm definitely down for ponying up the cost. Otherwise, I may have to just write off DDO as a sunk cost at some point and say I enjoyed what I could. But again, I would have been willing to pay to see the end faster if the option was there (and reasonably priced).

If this is about fun then it would be great if we could choose our heroic past life feat like we can epic past life feats when reincarnating. Then we could just always play the classes that are most fun to us. Playing should never feel like a grind.

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Originally Posted by Diracorvus

If this is about fun then it would be great if we could choose our heroic past life feat like we can epic past life feats when reincarnating. Then we could just always play the classes that are most fun to us. Playing should never feel like a grind.

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On the one had I like this on the other I don't.
I don't like to be pressured into playing something I don't like. On the other I do enjoy screwing around with a class so that it fits my playstyle. Since that is possible in most cases (for me at least) I'd say no this in the end.

But I kind of feel pressured to do Sagas and therefore special quests. And I am missing out on some fun quests that are not Saga ones. Like someone else said, I run a different set of quests every life but I do end up doing most sagas anyway. Maybe there is a different way to fill those? I am conflicted though because I like the concept behind a saga. Maybe get rid of the xp reward and give is some rare augment or the like.

Cheers,
Titus

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Originally Posted by SiliconScout

I am with you on that grindy feeling. Levels 11 to 17 are just so freaking long and boring. Granted I am a casual player but when I play I play efficiently and unless I am willing to grind the hell out of a couple of quests to try and speed things up (boring) it just feels like WORK not a game.

I don't understand why the XP changes still in this day and age. Epic TR's are the same XP regardless of how many times you have been to 30, it's time for heroic to get the same treatment. I say make it an even 2 million XP and call it a day. Honestly I could care less about the hardcore "experience" or "rewards" any more it's just so... too much and too often but I still find myself playing on HC over my actual server because the leveling is at a rate that I can actually feel a sense of advancement.

Considering that 1-20 grind it for Heroics and Racials and they are exclusive dropping it a bit would be a really good idea IMHO particularly for those who solo

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I am currently running a test on my home server for next HC season. I want to see how quickly I can do 20/1750 at low risk then have a crafter for a favor run. I am an average player, if that, and playing solo with no buffs or gear other than House P, on Hard, at 2 over, for low risk. 11 to 17 is about 16 hours of play time.

I always find myself in sort of a dip in certain level ranges (8-9, 13-14 and 19) where there isn't as much xp compared to other levels.
And there is a trend to have more lengthy arcs and lower the xp per quest and for the arc.

And yes, I can optimise my runs by doing the same few quests on a loop.
But that isn't as much fun as diverseing things up more.

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Originally Posted by Bagel99

for weekend warriors such as myself it would make it feel alot more rewarding to play. I feel the pacing is much much slower than epics, even epics who dont have first time benefits.

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ESO has a nice system of gaining the daily "green" XP bar that stacks. Up to 6 days or so.

If you don't play for a day or two you get a special XP boost (+100%) till you fill that "missed" daily XP budget. It could be lvl based like 50% of your current lvlup XP.


We had XP budget systems in DDO back in the days (negative XP after dying that you slowly regain in tavern) so this could be easy to implement.

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Originally Posted by Jynxxx

Maybe Legendary Races that start at 20 or 25 and have to go to level 40 to obtain a racial past life and class past life might be easier than rebuilding the current system with the same racial past life and heroic class benefit?

This would also allow those who do not like heroics to enjoy epic content more

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Not a bad idea. It's essentially a higher level Iconic. Certainly doesn't hurt to have both.

I will say, if you do make it possible to do 2 or 3 past lives at once while doubling or tripling the experience, please allows us to pick which lives we are getting. Rather than automatically getting 1 heroic and 1 racial it would be more ideal to get a list like in epic past lives where we can pick things. I don't necessarily mean we can pick past lives for classes or races we didn't play, but getting to pick two of the same heroic past life or two or three of the same racial past life would be better than automatically getting one of each (since the player may already be done with one or the other of the class and race).

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Originally Posted by Azarak

I'd like to see XP distributed better within quests and other places. I think part of what makes it feel grindy for me is that you only are getting significant XP when you get to the end of the quest. So essentially you don't feel incentivized to stay in the quest and do objectives all the time you spend playing feels like your wasting time unless your rushing as fast as you can to the end. I would like to see more rewards given out while playing rather than just lump sum at the end of quests. In a way the current system is kind of like the more you play the less you get.

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And this is especially true since experience is the most common reward and is plentiful in supply. There are so many quests, and so little experience required to level, that skipping optionals is just a good idea. The more optionals you skip, the more quests you can run before you cap and the more favor you can get as a result. Getting more favor is actually rewarded while getting more experience means nothing because you eventually will be capped and throwing away all the experience you get every quest anyway (as everyone that has ever played at cap can attest).

I suppose if there was dynamic favor, rather than static favor, so you could actually get more favor for doing optionals rather than just getting a set amount for your first elite/reaper completion, there might be a point in doing optionals. Currently rushing to the end is the only way to go if you are playing for favor (which is always what I focus on because focusing on experience would just cause me to skip two-thirds of the game every life).

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life. It would take some work as it's counter to our current system (as this would be something at the start of a life vs at the end). Again, not committing to anything, but I'll bring this up.

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

Keep those ideas flowing. I love reading all the feedback, especially when you all keep it in a positive light looking towards the future.


And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

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For those of us who did all our class lives first and are now working on racials, could we have an option for a double life to be 2xClass, 2xRace, or 1 of each?

(BTW, the way that iconics get 1 class and 1 ETR seemed pretty nice to me, thanks for implementing that, btw)

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Originally Posted by Madja

I would be down for this "Double Life" thing as well as honestly one of the main reasons I always burn out is the constant gear roulette that comes with the fast leveling in heroics.
I definitely don't think it should take longer to reach level 20 as there's already so many past-lives to get with more constantly being added, but if you could knock out two lives at once then that would give us the benefits of leveling slowly, but keep the rewards the same. My only worry would be whether there are enough quests to do for first time bonus.

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I usually go from level 1 to 20 (i.e. 3.8 million experience) running heroic only quests (meaning nothing that has an epic or legendary option). Given that there are more quests with epic/legendary options than ones without, I am quite confident you could get 7.2 million experience with just first time bonus and maybe even 11.4 million. There are currently far, far too many quests to play them all in heroics. I never TR when I get to 20, even though I am done with epic past lives, because there are simply too many quests left to play. I either have to play most of them double capped in heroics for zero experience or I play until I get to level 32 and do them for zero experience there (but much more RXP).

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Originally Posted by TitusOvid

I am conflicted though because I like the concept behind a saga. Maybe get rid of the xp reward and give is some rare augment or the like.

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Yes, please! I always end up picking the tome and grinding it into shards I will never use because Saga Exp is worthless to me. There are far too many quests for the amount of experience needed. The last thing I need is more experience.

I am not saying to remove experience, but please add something of actual value to the saga reward list. A rare augment (or even common, but useful augments like heavy fort, underwater action, feather fall, blindness immunity, etc.) would be great. Perhaps give us a token that can be used at an augment vendor to buy an augment with instead of shards.

...and this is why power creep and nerfing is constant, subpar players crying. Don't like the grind, then online games might not be for you. DDO has 708 quest and 50 wilderness areas to get XP, there is more XP in the game then you need. I once was all for a megaserver, now I think DDO needs 2 servers, one for gamers and one for the rest.

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Originally Posted by mpetrarca

...and this is why power creep and nerfing is constant, subpar players crying. Don't like the grind, then online games might not be for you. DDO has 708 quest and 50 wilderness areas to get XP, there is more XP in the game then you need. I once was all for a megaserver, now I think DDO needs 2 servers, one for gamers and one for the rest.

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Yes one for sweaties and one for people that just want to have fun in a not so serious way. But no matter how much you sweat the toxins out. There is still toxins there. Sounds like a fun server.

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Originally Posted by ranthrock

For those of us who did all our class lives first and are now working on racials, could we have an option for a double life to be 2xClass, 2xRace, or 1 of each?

(BTW, the way that iconics get 1 class and 1 ETR seemed pretty nice to me, thanks for implementing that, btw)

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Based on the original suggestion, this would be less efficient. It would be better to run the best quests over 2 lives rather than milk more quests to get double Heroic XP for reincarnation. The only "benefit" would be you would be encouraged to run the less rewarding quests and you can already choose to do that on your second life. If SSG were to consider that idea, the first feedback they would get is that it should take less than double XP to get the 2 PLs.

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Originally Posted by Diracorvus

If this is about fun then it would be great if we could choose our heroic past life feat like we can epic past life feats when reincarnating. Then we could just always play the classes that are most fun to us. Playing should never feel like a grind.

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As with other posters, I am torn about getting a PL for a class you haven't played. I would compromise and allow a PL to be chosen for any class with 5 levels or more so you can get a PL for a splash class.

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

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On a positive note, sadly there isn't enough heroic xp to reach 7.6 million.
If you do everything on R1 once there is 6.3 million xp* and this includes raids.
And that is for VIPs only, voice of the master and big guild but without xp pots.
No one is going to include raids in their reliable setup of xp trains for heroics.

* Came to this number by multiplying the base elite xp for a quest with a factor of 6.
Which includes :

1.00 Base
1.00 BB
0.95 First
0.50 Tome
0.25 Daily
0.10 Persist
0.10 Flawless
0.10 Kills
0.08 Breakables
-------
5.08 Subbed


0.05 Xpstone
0.05 Guild
0.10 VIP
-----
0.20 Sub+


Factor of 6

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Originally Posted by LightBear

On a positive note, sadly there isn't enough heroic xp to reach 7.6 million.
If you do everything on R1 once there is 6.3 million xp* and this includes raids.
And that is for VIPs only, voice of the master and big guild but without xp pots.
No one is going to include raids in their reliable setup of xp trains for heroics.

* Came to this number by multiplying the base elite xp for a quest with a factor of 6.
Which includes :

1.00 Base
1.00 BB
0.95 First
0.50 Tome
0.25 Daily
0.10 Persist
0.10 Flawless
0.10 Kills
0.08 Breakables
-------
5.08 Subbed


0.05 Xpstone
0.05 Guild
0.10 VIP
-----
0.20 Sub+


Factor of 6

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You should probably include Explorers and Sagas though. But even then, it would be slower than running 2 heroic lives. It would likely have to be 1.5X XP to be comparable and not 2X.

Wish I could play as whatever build I wanted in heroics without having to play a certain class for the past life. It's the biggest turn off for me when it comes to heroic TR and the main reason I don't do it. I know it's a staple of the system but nevertheless it's the main reason I don't participate in it and likely never will. When they stripped the destiny requirements of epic TR it made it much more enjoyable for me and got me to get on the epic TR train again. Epic TR is a blast now, it's so much more fun without karma requirements. Would be nice if the requirement could be removed for heroics as well and just let us take whatever past life we want regardless of the build we're playing. Even if it's paywalled like the wish for memories is for racial TR that'd be OK by me. Just don't force me to play 11 levels of X class I have no interest in playing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LightBear

On a positive note, sadly there isn't enough heroic xp to reach 7.6 million.
If you do everything on R1 once there is 6.3 million xp* and this includes raids.
And that is for VIPs only, voice of the master and big guild but without xp pots.
No one is going to include raids in their reliable setup of xp trains for heroics.

* Came to this number by multiplying the base elite xp for a quest with a factor of 6.
Which includes :

1.00 Base
1.00 BB
0.95 First
0.50 Tome
0.25 Daily
0.10 Persist
0.10 Flawless
0.10 Kills
0.08 Breakables
-------
5.08 Subbed


0.05 Xpstone
0.05 Guild
0.10 VIP
-----
0.20 Sub+


Factor of 6

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by double life, didn't they just mean something like Iconic but for legendary levels instead of epic -- (call this mythic so i can type less here)

So grabbing a mythic race, starting at level 20, going to level 40, then doing a Mythic reincarnation would get you say, for example, 2 past life feats ( thus the 'double life expression ) - 1 Mythic past life feat, and 1 epic past life feat. leaving you at level 20, so you could theoretically do a heroic reincarnation as well, if you wanted, or race back to 40 and do another Mythic one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ereshkigal

by double life, didn't they just mean something like Iconic but for legendary levels instead of epic -- (call this mythic so i can type less here)

So grabbing a mythic race, starting at level 20, going to level 40, then doing a Mythic reincarnation would get you say, for example, 2 past life feats ( thus the 'double life expression ) - 1 Mythic past life feat, and 1 epic past life feat. leaving you at level 20, so you could theoretically do a heroic reincarnation as well, if you wanted, or race back to 40 and do another Mythic one.

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Nah it was getting heroic & racial at once for twice the xp

If heroic is too grindy which I don’t agree this will be much worse

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Originally Posted by axel15810

Wish I could play as whatever build I wanted in heroics without having to play a certain class for the past life. It's the biggest turn off for me when it comes to heroic TR and the main reason I don't do it. I know it's a staple of the system but nevertheless it's the main reason I don't participate in it and likely never will. When they stripped the destiny requirements of epic TR it made it much more enjoyable for me and got me to get on the epic TR train again. Epic TR is a blast now, it's so much more fun without karma requirements. Would be nice if the requirement could be removed for heroics as well and just let us take whatever past life we want regardless of the build we're playing. Even if it's paywalled like the wish for memories is for racial TR that'd be OK by me. Just don't force me to play 11 levels of X class I have no interest in playing.

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Yeah I'm glad I'm done with heroic completionist and only fun classes left for doubling or tripling up if I feel like it.

Melee can be played as any class (some class enhancement trees are not great but workable)
Ranged with the 6 ranger / 6 rogue / 8x inquisitive template

Caster cannot be played with like half of the classes though (9 caster/ 11 x, just doesn't work....too few caster levels and spells), so I had to do quite a few less fun lives.

Epic rework was awesome for epic TR. Still you run out of first time xp bonuses after a few lives and it would be better to TR again

Am I the only one who saw the title of this thread and immediately thought; 'Bad day for someone' or 'TROLL'?

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Originally Posted by Oxarhamar

Nah it was getting heroic & racial at once for twice the xp

If heroic is too grindy which I don’t agree this will be much worse

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hopefully it's just an optional thing - because I would never choose to do that...

thanks for clearing that up for me tho.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmoustakas

I would like a mode that requires double heroic xp to level up but you get both a racial and class past life.

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I feel like I'm missing something obvious here, since several people have chimed in that they like this idea (including a dev), but I don't get it. Why would this be any better than just playing the same life twice in a row and taking the heroic life the first time and the racial life the second time?

I guess you would skip having to empty your TR cache in between and you would only have to mess around with regearing, etc. half as many times, but you would also only get the first time bonus for quests once instead of twice. It seems like it would take longer than just doing the same life twice in a row. It would also cause problems for grouping. If you run a chain or two with a group that isn't doing this type of a life, they'll level past you and you'll have to find another group.

Could someone please explain what I'm missing? I don't understand why I would ever want to do this.

Heroic XP needs to be adjusted, Epic takes more than twice the XP and takes a significantly shorter amount of time than a heroic past life, should be the other way around, not that I want EPIC touched XP wise, but a Heroic 1-20 should take less time than an Epic 21-30.

Just makes sense.

Saw a few posts asking for epic/legendary only races.

I hate epics with a passion. Despite making it through them several times, when I try I often just give up and TR to avoid dropping from the game completely. Eventually I've come to accept that Heroics are the only enjoyable way for me to play the game, though from time to time I try epics only to curse myself endlessly for my stupidity in assuming my loathing would have changed.

From my guildies I know I am not alone in having a clear preference for heroics over epics, though they seem to be able to stomach epics better than I can. Of course we also have the ones who like epics. To each their own.

So, with that said, taking races and restricting them to epic only levels, puts them effectively out of reach completely for the heroics crowd. Ask yourselves if you'd enjoy having heroic only races that would be stuck at 20 and you couldn't take with you to epics.
To put plainly - it sucks.

I'd like to see an option to play any race in whatever manner you choose. Want to level from 20 to cap and collect an epic PL? go for it. Want to level 1-20 and collect a heroic one? why not.
I see no upside to restricting races to certain levels. I have no idea why they chose that route with the iconics.

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Originally Posted by LightBear

On a positive note, sadly there isn't enough heroic xp to reach 7.6 million.
If you do everything on R1 once there is 6.3 million xp* and this includes raids.
And that is for VIPs only, voice of the master and big guild but without xp pots.
No one is going to include raids in their reliable setup of xp trains for heroics.

* Came to this number by multiplying the base elite xp for a quest with a factor of 6.
Which includes :

1.00 Base
1.00 BB
0.95 First
0.50 Tome
0.25 Daily
0.10 Persist
0.10 Flawless
0.10 Kills
0.08 Breakables
-------
5.08 Subbed


0.05 Xpstone
0.05 Guild
0.10 VIP
-----
0.20 Sub+


Factor of 6

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Well that being the case, double lives would be almost completely pointless after life 2.

Once again, it would be really nice if it took 6-10 lives for the full XP penalty to kick in instead of the current 3.

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Originally Posted by Lauf

Saw a few posts asking for epic/legendary only races.

I hate epics with a passion. Despite making it through them several times, when I try I often just give up and TR to avoid dropping from the game completely. Eventually I've come to accept that Heroics are the only enjoyable way for me to play the game, though from time to time I try epics only to curse myself endlessly for my stupidity in assuming my loathing would have changed.

From my guildies I know I am not alone in having a clear preference for heroics over epics, though they seem to be able to stomach epics better than I can. Of course we also have the ones who like epics. To each their own.

So, with that said, taking races and restricting them to epic only levels, puts them effectively out of reach completely for the heroics crowd. Ask yourselves if you'd enjoy having heroic only races that would be stuck at 20 and you couldn't take with you to epics.
To put plainly - it sucks.

I'd like to see an option to play any race in whatever manner you choose. Want to level from 20 to cap and collect an epic PL? go for it. Want to level 1-20 and collect a heroic one? why not.
I see no upside to restricting races to certain levels. I have no idea why they chose that route with the iconics.

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I just got back from a 2 year break. Epics are way better now than they used to be. I am a good player, not great for sure. I can reliably solo Epic Elite and its not bad. I have really enjoy soloing and learning quests that I rarely did in the past (Eveningstar mainly).
Give it a shot and just solo on Epic Elite.

Earlier when I suggested the 2 lives per life with more XP, the main reason was to get more Favor and for a life to feel more "substantial".

TRing was wayyyyy worse back when it was new. Bravery Bonus wasn't a thing and the XP was extremely backloaded. Rather than every level just being 2x. It was like 5% more each level, but by the time you hit 15+ you need like 3 million XP for the last 5 levels. And Sagas didn't exist and many chains didn't exist. You did all the Vale/Gianthold/Necro 4 quests on Elite/Hard/Normal. And then did some slayers.

Once again, I just got back from a 2 year break and I really like the direction the game has gone. The new expansions are great and they have done a great job of adding quests in different level ranges in my humble opinion.

A couple great quotes from this thread:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Diracorvus

Just try to enjoy the game and the leveling won't feel like a grind. If you are not enjoying it take a break. There are also XP potions and Otto's Boxes if you want to skip parts of the leveling process.
If you make your hobby feel like work, you will just end up frustrated.

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It really doesn't make sense to want to enjoy the game by skipping the game.
Requests for shared account past lives, reduced XP to cap, etc just sound like requests for easy-buttons for instant gratification. I do not think zerging to 20 needs to be any faster, people do it in a day already. [Disclaimer: I have many PLs but also lots of lives left to do and take at least 2-3 weeks per life, sometimes much more depending on RL.]

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Originally Posted by Wizard1406

Heroics mostly feel slow and boring for me since there are too many old quests that are poor- annoying mechanics or low xp, boring design - sewers, sewers everywhere. (and generic crpyts, warehouses, caves). And a good deal of quests are overplayed by me because of the bank char coinlord and house K farms.

Epics and new quests, especially expansions, feel much better in comparison.

Another problem is not enough grouping and no incentive to do challenging difficulties (and you'd want a group for that anyway) since heroic rxp is so low, especially pre lvl ~15.

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Good points about lack of variation and irrelevance of rxp in heroics. The rxp formula really emphasizes the highest level quests which makes rxp from lower level quests practically irrelevant. I do not know if that is intentional but it would be easy to modify the formula.

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Originally Posted by GoldyGopher

...
Addressing the Problem: Multiple Bloggers, Player Council Members and just plain vanilla players have done the work to identify Quests and Optionals (including Ransack and Conquest) where the XP per Minute is unacceptable (low); with the other two categories being acceptable and high. Approximately 40% of the quests fall into the unacceptable low category. I identified 153 quests in my last go around.
Free to Play Quests almost universally need an XP increase.

Running on R1 just zerging the top 3 or 4 quests at each level in terms of XP per Minute will result in greater than 80% of the XP required to reach the next level (assuming basic XP boosts). Running some popular, but lower XP per minute quests is a double whammy for players. First it takes longer to run the quests and second you have to run more quests taking even longer.
An example using Level 8 Quests, not including pots, VIP or other XP increasing bonuses (voice/tomes/shrines), run at R1.
High XP - Spies in the House, Tomb of the Shadow King, Libram of the Six, Stomrvauld's Mine. 24 Minutes Zerging earning ~100,000 XP
Unacceptable XP - Stormcleave, Haunted Library, Captives of the Cult, Thrask Arena. 45 Minutes Zerging earning ~60,000 XP

Just moving the 9 or 10 quests at Level 8 up from the unacceptable level of XP to an acceptable level increases the XP of the four quests I listed by ~45,000 XP and ~75,000 for all 9 quests and yet it doesn't change or effect the XP the hard core zergers.
...

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This seems like such an obvious and simple solution to several issues: Increase xp from content with (s)low xp
- Fast levelers will get more xp-relevant content to choose from, making leveling less monotone but not really faster so PLs are not cheapened
- More casual players will not get penalized as much for taking non-optimal paths to cap and feel greater sense of progress

Some content (quests, optionals, challenges, etc) will always give the *most* xp/min but narrowing the spread will make more content more xp-relevant so that more people will enjoy more of the game. I cannot see any downside to this, is there any?

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Originally Posted by Splunge

I feel like I'm missing something obvious here, since several people have chimed in that they like this idea (including a dev), but I don't get it. Why would this be any better than just playing the same life twice in a row and taking the heroic life the first time and the racial life the second time?

I guess you would skip having to empty your TR cache in between and you would only have to mess around with regearing, etc. half as many times, but you would also only get the first time bonus for quests once instead of twice. It seems like it would take longer than just doing the same life twice in a row. It would also cause problems for grouping. If you run a chain or two with a group that isn't doing this type of a life, they'll level past you and you'll have to find another group.

Could someone please explain what I'm missing? I don't understand why I would ever want to do this.

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I play every quest every life. So that means most of my time is spent playing quests for zero experience. I don't TR until I have run everything. Yes, I could TR without running everything, but I don't. This would allow me to feel more rewarded as I quest because experience would matter. Currently I am always happy to skip every optional, enter quests very late for -80% penalty, and be the person to release and reenter if there is a wipe, because experience is so common as to be worthless. No matter what I do I am guaranteed to effortlessly cap and start throwing away experience no matter how many penalties I take in quests because there are simply far too many quests to run each life. I would enjoy the experience reward more if I knew I actually needed experience. I would also be far more likely to do optionals if I thought the experience would in any way help me level.

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Originally Posted by Buddha5440

Am I the only one who saw the title of this thread and immediately thought; 'Bad day for someone' or 'TROLL'?

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I would love to have a Iconic or proposed mythic race be a troll! But no yeah just a bad day for me, didnt realize i was setting fire to the forest. Was just a small blowing off steam post for me and if anyone wanted to chime in.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Splunge

I feel like I'm missing something obvious here, since several people have chimed in that they like this idea (including a dev), but I don't get it. Why would this be any better than just playing the same life twice in a row and taking the heroic life the first time and the racial life the second time?

I guess you would skip having to empty your TR cache in between and you would only have to mess around with regearing, etc. half as many times, but you would also only get the first time bonus for quests once instead of twice. It seems like it would take longer than just doing the same life twice in a row. It would also cause problems for grouping. If you run a chain or two with a group that isn't doing this type of a life, they'll level past you and you'll have to find another group.

Could someone please explain what I'm missing? I don't understand why I would ever want to do this.

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There is too much* heroic xp now versus in the past even excluding monster manual, saga and dice xp. I skip like half the quests and all the wilderness. I don't do von5-6 or necro crypts or their flagging quests because if I do I have to skip a whole quest level worth of quests. Staying more in a level range makes it EASIER to find/run groups, not harder. Also gives you a chance to repeat quests for fun and loot and not lose xp. Obviously I don't suggest we go back to running kobold's ringleader EHNEEE but it's not like we would. This is most blatantly obvious when playing in hardcore and trying to get all the favour. If you run all quests up to and including level 3 you have more than enough xp for level 9! (Level 7 double capped, often tripple capped because of MM).

Lastly, some people enjoy heroic. Not all of us obviously. And not all of us are turbozergers trying to get a heroic or racial past life in a day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life. It would take some work as it's counter to our current system (as this would be something at the start of a life vs at the end). Again, not committing to anything, but I'll bring this up.

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

Keep those ideas flowing. I love reading all the feedback, especially when you all keep it in a positive light looking towards the future.


And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

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This is why you gotta "fight" for and repeat your suggestions. Every time I suggested this in the past I was laughted and/or trolled out of the building. There is more to heroic than zerging it in a day <3

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bagel99

I would love to have a Iconic or proposed mythic race be a troll! But no yeah just a bad day for me, didnt realize i was setting fire to the forest. Was just a small blowing off steam post for me and if anyone wanted to chime in.

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I was just trying to point out that the title of the post is asking people to post their rants...starts out negative.

Maybe try something like...'Post your concerns about heroic xp' or 'Post your ideas about heroic xp'.

"Post your Heroic XP rants here!" is just asking people to flood the forum with negative deconstructive stuff rather than constructive criticism. It's not helpful to anyone.


-Happy gaming all :)

I think there is plenty of Heroic XP, and ways to enhance it. The issue is the feeling of "needing" to accumulate past lives, imo. The reality is that after a player is no longer new (1 to 3 PLs), and they have sniffed thru SSG content and the goal is to TR, the two determining factors driving Heroic PL runs for a majority of players is:

1. Loot
2. XP (per minute in particular) - for the TR they are on


In my static group, we used these guidelines until our most recent life when we dedicated ourselves to run every Heroic quest (ignoring capped xp), to go for max Favor. We stopped at about 16 because it was boring and we wanted to get to 20 and try something new with the characters. It just stopped being fun playing with capped xp and a lack of advancement. Players are simply too ingrained in video game culture with needing to "level up" to play DDO without being rewarded in some way - it feels like a "waste of time" to play and see your earned xp flushed down the drain. So, back to Loot and XP.


Several years ago SSG pushed wanting to have players run "more" of their content and did things like lower the base xp for "daily" run quests (like Von 3) and give the first-time play-through bonus. It has worked a little, I am guessing, as some greater numbers of quests get run for the first time through bonus. The reality though, is that Loot and XP still drive player decision making as opposed to sampling more content so often. What is SSG's design goal? It's not clear to me and I think players have received mixed messages. What I think SSG should to take into account is:


1. If they want players to play MORE content - they need to re-evaluate XP per minute for content without decent loot by increasing it substantially - be it's base xp, optional, sagas, whatever.
2. For content with desired loot that players will farm for, reduce the base xp, because players will play through anyway for a chance at the great pull.


Going back to prior xp passes, SSG seems to be conflicted within its own decision-making structure as to what they want to accomplish. Until they figure it out, I think they need to K.I.S.S. and focus on XP and Loot which will then drive success.


Lastly, if HumbleFriar and the team want to add a monetized feature to double up on past lives, I am for it, but I can hear the same squawking from players who have already accumulated those past lives, as there was with the introduction of Otto's Boxes.

Honestly, I would like to see the quests we currently have that aren't run often given higher xp values. When is the last time you saw a group running The Titan Awakes or flagging for it? You hardly see people running Against the slave lords anymore, Disciples of rage, Ataraxia's Haven, BAM, the level six twelve quests. Yes, adding more xp to those quests does make it easier to hit 20. Yes, it will mean you'll have less people running beyond the rift or eveningstar quests. However, what we will see instead is more people running a variety of quests to get to 20 instead of just running the same loop of quests over and over again because they're worth the best xp/min. Minimize the margins between quests of the same level range so they all give roughly the same xp value and I hypothesize you'll see a lot more groups running quests you would otherwise never run. At the very least, it'll help break up the mundanity that is the TR train of constantly looping through the same quests over and over again because they give the best xp for your time. Improve the hamster wheel's variety and you'll have an easier time retaining people to play the game compared to having them feel as though they're required to run the same loop to get the best xp per time invested.

Now, obviously you can run any quest in the game. There's nothing stopping you from doing slave lords, or disciple of rage, etc, however, if we ignore the human element of wanting to do everything the most efficient way possible then we're just lying to ourselves. Can you honestly say you would run the Restless Aisles quests in their current state with the xp they currently give? Or would you rather repeat the same loop of quests you've done for the last 10, 15, 20, 30 past lives? I know my answer is that I will continue to ruin any fun I could have doing quests i'm not too familiar with because the quests I do know are the ones that give me the best xp per time invested into them and makes the gap between me and the top shorter.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ConnectedGamers

Honestly, I would like to see the quests we currently have that aren't run often given higher xp values. When is the last time you saw a group running The Titan Awakes or flagging for it? You hardly see people running Against the slave lords anymore, Disciples of rage, Ataraxia's Haven, BAM, the level six twelve quests. Yes, adding more xp to those quests does make it easier to hit 20. Yes, it will mean you'll have less people running beyond the rift or eveningstar quests. However, what we will see instead is more people running a variety of quests to get to 20 instead of just running the same loop of quests over and over again because they're worth the best xp/min. Minimize the margins between quests of the same level range so they all give roughly the same xp value and I hypothesize you'll see a lot more groups running quests you would otherwise never run. At the very least, it'll help break up the mundanity that is the TR train of constantly looping through the same quests over and over again because they give the best xp for your time. Improve the hamster wheel's variety and you'll have an easier time retaining people to play the game compared to having them feel as though they're required to run the same loop to get the best xp per time invested.

Now, obviously you can run any quest in the game. There's nothing stopping you from doing slave lords, or disciple of rage, etc, however, if we ignore the human element of wanting to do everything the most efficient way possible then we're just lying to ourselves. Can you honestly say you would run the Restless Aisles quests in their current state with the xp they currently give? Or would you rather repeat the same loop of quests you've done for the last 10, 15, 20, 30 past lives? I know my answer is that I will continue to ruin any fun I could have doing quests i'm not too familiar with because the quests I do know are the ones that give me the best xp per time invested into them and makes the gap between me and the top shorter.

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The double or triple experience (to get 2 or 3 lives) will probably do more to increase variety of quests played than upping the experience on low experience quests. I already run every quest every life and I can tell you the barrier to getting people to run quests is that they don't need the experience because there are too many quests and not enough experience needed to level. Back when I was getting 2 or 3 epic past lives per heroic/racial past life it worked out fine because I could run each quest in the game once for first time bonus and accumulate 4 total lives in the process. But with epic past lives done the new solution has been running everything that is heroic only (i.e. no epic or legendary option) at heroic levels and then running epic quests from 20-29 (while staying at level 29 a little longer to run the remaining epic quests just for RXP) and then running every legendary quest at level 32 just for RXP. It's not a terrible system, but it does require playing most of the game for no past lives (since I am only rewarded with a past life for getting to 20 and then everything that comes after is rewarded with only RXP.

Anything that improves the reward for playing more quests will work. It could be more past lives at a time, or it could be something like doubling RXP when capped. After all, if legendary quests can give double the RXP of epic and heroic quests then there is no reason that playing quests while doubled capped in heroic, or while having enough experience to take level 20 or 30, but not taking it, can't also give double RXP. Especially when you consider how little RXP heroic quests are worth anyway. Doubling or even tripling the RXP you get for running a quest for no experience would be a perfectly reasonable reward to encourage more people to play more of the quests (and honestly even that probably isn't enough of a reward to get a large percentage of people to do it, but it would be an improvement).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by erethizon

The double or triple experience (to get 2 or 3 lives) will probably do more to increase variety of quests played than upping the experience on low experience quests. I already run every quest every life and I can tell you the barrier to getting people to run quests is that they don't need the experience because there are too many quests and not enough experience needed to level. Back when I was getting 2 or 3 epic past lives per heroic/racial past life it worked out fine because I could run each quest in the game once for first time bonus and accumulate 4 total lives in the process. But with epic past lives done the new solution has been running everything that is heroic only (i.e. no epic or legendary option) at heroic levels and then running epic quests from 20-29 (while staying at level 29 a little longer to run the remaining epic quests just for RXP) and then running every legendary quest at level 32 just for RXP. It's not a terrible system, but it does require playing most of the game for no past lives (since I am only rewarded with a past life for getting to 20 and then everything that comes after is rewarded with only RXP.

Anything that improves the reward for playing more quests will work. It could be more past lives at a time, or it could be something like doubling RXP when capped. After all, if legendary quests can give double the RXP of epic and heroic quests then there is no reason that playing quests while doubled capped in heroic, or while having enough experience to take level 20 or 30, but not taking it, can't also give double RXP. Especially when you consider how little RXP heroic quests are worth anyway. Doubling or even tripling the RXP you get for running a quest for no experience would be a perfectly reasonable reward to encourage more people to play more of the quests (and honestly even that probably isn't enough of a reward to get a large percentage of people to do it, but it would be an improvement).

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You can already run every quest if you like as you have been

It’s not an option that I’m against however I don’t see it solving the original issue only making things more grind to use this system (I don’t think it is too grinding as is anyway

I think many players would still skip most quests and go for one TR a go

Favor the reward system for running all quests and getting no xp

Not related to to the grind, but itd be really nice if there were an easy way to turn off XP gain.

I play with a small group and we all try to stay close in levels. If a quest has a certain piece of gear I'd like and they're not available to run the quest with me, I have to hope you can open the end chest without finishing the quest or spend time entering and exiting multiple times to limit my XP.

Just hang out at level-cap and gain 0 XP until your group catches up. Once they do you can all level up together. There’s no need to jump through hoops to diminish xp payouts.

I'd like to see some quest lines be releveled. Personally, I feel like there are so many quests to choose from up to and including level 7. I'd like to see Tangleroot, Sorrowdusk, and Thernal get releveled and tighten them up a bit. Those, again, to me, just are spread out too much for me. Maybe start them later and spread them out over 2-3 levels instead of 5. Not so much Thernal, but Thernal is just messed up level wise anyway imo.

I like all those quests but I usually don't run them at all.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life. It would take some work as it's counter to our current system (as this would be something at the start of a life vs at the end). Again, not committing to anything, but I'll bring this up.

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

Keep those ideas flowing. I love reading all the feedback, especially when you all keep it in a positive light looking towards the future.


And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

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First- thank you for listening to the feedback!

I'm not sure if the team would be open to this... but I'm just curious why "3" is the magic number? At one time, when there were less classes- no epic lives- no racial lives- etc., it made sense to have a decent amount of grind spread out over 3 PLs per class. If the development team were open to it, I think the most simple solution to the PL grind would be to grant all of the PL benefits after a single PL of each class/race/epic life while removing the double life benefits from iconics. That's still 15 heroic lives (including new archetypes), 15 racial lives, 9 iconic lives and 13 epic lives. That's still 52 lives per character to have "everything". It is still a significant amount of grind, would encourage more alt-play (without the need for shared past lives) and help in making the player community more receptive (actually excited in many cases) to additional lives being added in the future (IE: more archetypes, legendary PLs, etc.).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life. It would take some work as it's counter to our current system (as this would be something at the start of a life vs at the end). Again, not committing to anything, but I'll bring this up.

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

Keep those ideas flowing. I love reading all the feedback, especially when you all keep it in a positive light looking towards the future.


And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

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get rid of enhancement trees, Replace with cosmetics. It makes zero sense to offer a difficulty setting to be rewarded with power to offset that difficulty you just spent development money on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Retired_Old_Gamer

get rid of enhancement trees, Replace with cosmetics. It makes zero sense to offer a difficulty setting to be rewarded with power to offset that difficulty you just spent development money on.

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100%


said it then, and it bears repeating

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Retired_Old_Gamer

get rid of enhancement trees, Replace with cosmetics. It makes zero sense to offer a difficulty setting to be rewarded with power to offset that difficulty you just spent development money on.

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Signed.

Get less then 10 RP and low level R1 is easy compared to elite

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

Also, when we look into the reaper changes, re-visiting the reward vs challenge, especially for pre-legendary levels will be discussed.

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2 points:

A: I understand the OP's point, but disagree with request for change. Many MMOs are all about the end game. The whole leveling thing is just a chore. DDO is not built like that. One can certainly play it that way, (and good on you if that's your thing) but you don't have to.

Even w/all PLs I still TR. I like watching my character develop and grow as they level. I almost wish you had to run ALL heroic content to get to epic. That's actually one of my 3 most favorite things about hard core: it incentivizes playing content I usually skip. Several others have laid out ways to really speed up heroic leveling or how to mix it up to keep it more interesting.

B. I look forward to a reaper overhaul. I find the enhancement trees boring, oddly restrictive, and uninspiring. Reaper play itself could use some small tweaking--in particular the jump from R4 to R5 (it's all about the Vengeance Reapers (quick fix -- swap Vengeance with Despair Reapers).

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Originally Posted by Frezar14

I'd like to see some quest lines be releveled. Personally, I feel like there are so many quests to choose from up to and including level 7. I'd like to see Tangleroot, Sorrowdusk, and Thernal get releveled and tighten them up a bit. Those, again, to me, just are spread out too much for me. Maybe start them later and spread them out over 2-3 levels instead of 5. Not so much Thernal, but Thernal is just messed up level wise anyway imo.

I like all those quests but I usually don't run them at all.

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The issue I always had with Threnal, Sorrowdusk and Tangleroot, other than the annoying level spread which made it harder to get a party together, is the repetitive action of 'run a quest, come back to the origin point, receive one further objective, retread the same ground, make slightly more progress, repeat'. Tangleroot is the *worst* about it, but the others are almost as terrible. The best solution I have seen to this was the (somewhat) recent update to Catacombs, where the quest giver waits for you at the end of the quest, advances the story, and channels you directly into the next part. It is just as immersive and a lot more fun to run. Even in STK, where you are running multiple quests but step from one to the other with no interruption, is acceptable.

^
Yes, to me it never made sense that levels of questlines are different. Lorewise they are clearly meant to be played in one go. And QoL wise too, so you don't have to travel back to the place, a few levels later. It would be nice if old quest lines were normalized to a single level (or 2 at most) like in epics.

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Originally Posted by HumbleFriar

I really like the idea of the 'double up' life.

And yes, I've already thought of a way we could do the 'double life'.

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I like this thread, it is the first time for ages that I have gone back to read every post.

My "main" toon runs in a two-man group with my housemate most evenings. He uses Sovereign XP potions and therefore so do I -- to keep us in sync. He uses "wish for memories" for racial past lives, but I don't (or didn't, as I have now completed them all). We have some missions we like to run every life because they are fun, some because they are good XP and some because we want the saga rewards to get our guild ever-closer to 200.

One of my alts, that I play a lot now that I am retired, does not use XP potions. I get to play most (but not all) of the heroic missions up to level 16 each life. I deliberately skip a few that I struggle with (The Pit, Spies -- I can't time the jumps right), but I still end up XP capped at several points because there are so many missions available. When in a pick-up group, I now know most quests well enough that I can keep up with a zerger, but a few years ago that was not the case and I found that, for me, zerging consisted of running down empty corridors hoping to get to the end chest before everyone else had recalled. The XP per minute was great, but I usually prefer to savour the moment, try out bluff-pulls or other tricks for my current build.

I like the idea of a "double XP life" where you get a bonus past life feat. Because I really enjoy having lots of racial action points to spend on my main toon, I'd love to earn extra action points during a double life (10 ranks per level instead of 5 = double xp). These could be "use on anything" action points, or limited to, say, universal trees -- I'm cool with anything like that. I always struggle with action point choices as most classes have too many good options that I can't have everything that I'd like. Based on my alt who does not use XP potions, I'd struggle to reach 7.6 million XP without using some XP potions, even allowing for the wilderness zones. Over the years I have built up a stash of XP potions from 5% to 30%, so I'd use up some of those each time I ran a double XP life. I might even (gasp!) have to re-run some missions, just like the old days, but more likely I'd just run some of the neglected level 17+ missions. There was a time when Dreaming Dark, Shavarath and the Path of Inspiration were all popular groups of missions that we would run every life. I have not run any of these in years, except on one Hardcore life (the one before the Hounds).

And, while I am here, could I make a suggestion for XP potions to last for X dungeons, rather than 3 hours. The constant countdown of the timer encourages zerging (or zerg-like behaviour) and discourages taking time to "smell the roses" (e.g. optional objectives, bluff-pulls, completing a mission with almost no kills, etc) -- why, you might find that people start running those stupidly long missions again (yes, I'm talking about you, Slave Lords ... but there are others like the rat mazes in Tomb of the Tormented). The min-max peope will switch to run the highest XP missions, regardless of duration, but that will (at least for some groups) make a nice change. And those zergers that run Reaper 1 without an XP potion will continue as they currently do and focus on the best XP-per-minute dungeons.

I've played DDO for about 13 years (since Christmas 2009) and enjoyed it a lot. With my extra play time in the last 18 months (facilitated by retiring), I can now foresee a time when my main toon will be a triple-completionist with all the epic past lives (my housemate is nearly there already, as, unlike me, he played a lot during the "exploit" period when you could easily complete an epic life in an evening). I wonder if I will find DDO quite so attractive as a pastime once there are no new goodies to unlock. The new archetypes will add a few years to the end point. The prospect of "double XP" lives that grant a "different" bonus past life feat could, depending on the implementation, provide a few more years play before I look for my next pastime.

Here's hoping for a few more years of pleasantly wasting time in DDO.

Splash trapper, break stuff, kill stuff and search for doors etc it's funner to

Based on the age of the game, the number of past lives and reaper points, the range of gear setups, and steep climb supporting alts, I think this game should be flying by much faster for folks. Faster initial run speed. Faster starting offense. More xp in many quests. Unlocking the economics of alts will extend the game much better than slapping on new past lives ad infinitum.

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Originally Posted by Bacab

I don't think Heroic lives feel grindy to me?

I often miss running quests I like because I outlevel them.
I generally will have to pick a chain I like and do it every third life.
...

I have wished that there was a "double life" option where XP was doubled and we could get a Heroic Life and a Racial Life.
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I am in the same boat as Bacab, sometimes you even outlevel an entire chain before you can finish it at level. If you join XP leveling trains it becomes even more evident. This sometimes brakes groups apart s some keep on banking the XP while others taking the level instead, so it gets harder to group together. In fact apart from the above mentioned "double life" it would be also helpful to be able to bank more than one level to avoid being forced to take levels or wasting XP. After all this mechanism already exists. On this note it would be helpful to better see how much XP/level one has banked.

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Originally Posted by warrampart

Splash trapper, break stuff, kill stuff and search for doors etc it's funner to

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This is my general playstyle, pretty good and its a good balance of slow and fast gameplay tbh.

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Originally Posted by Oliphant

Based on the age of the game, the number of past lives and reaper points, the range of gear setups, and steep climb supporting alts, I think this game should be flying by much faster for folks. Faster initial run speed. Faster starting offense. More xp in many quests. Unlocking the economics of alts will extend the game much better than slapping on new past lives ad infinitum.

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Id be cool with more movement speed or attack speed being honest. Sometimes haste boost is best boost!