Why Melee is hard to balance in any MMO

Melee is not hard to balance, but many MMOs struggle with it. Why they struggle is very simple and has nothing to do with DPS v Mitigation v Agro and everything to do with Developer mindset.

All MMO developer teams have two gauges for what makes up a tank: how much DPS it can do before they think of it as a DPS and how much damage it can take before they think of it as a tank. Permitting anything to cross those lines is abhorrent -- they'll often consider crazy changes to keep those lines "safe".

In DDO, the DPS gauge for tanks is lower than any other MMO I've ever played. It's basically zero. If a tank in our raids gets a kill, he makes fun of the entire raid.

The mitigation gauge is similarly pegged in DDO. If you're living through two hits as DPS, you're stealing the tank's show here.

In most MMO's, a tank does about 60~80% of the DPS of a DPS-focused character. They usually solo amazingly well, often much better than pure DPS. They are still not played as often because tanks are seen as leaders and most players just want to have fun without responsibility for other's fun.

Same thing for DPS playing as a tank. Usually they can, but not at the highest levels and not without extra effort. In DDO, this is almost impossible -- can be done, but it's v.rare and the healing effort required is pretty extreme (eg. spam healing).

So, you want to balance melee in DDO? The first step is to adjust those dials. You have them pegged at extremes that are making balance impossible. I think you'll find that trinity play will GREATLY increase when tanks can do enough dps to solo simply because that's the major reason I hear for people not liking to play them in DDO.

BTW, adjusting those little cultural bias dials on tank v DPS will not be easy. The only MMOs I've seen make even a slight adaptation there was FFXI (for blink tanks) and EQ1 (for monk FD pulling & tanking).

Also of note is how DDO didn't really need "Tanks" until very recently, and even then their utility is questionable outside of a few niche roles. That's probably why its been hardest for DDO, the game is ancient and this is the first time "need tank" has appeared in an LFG.

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

Also of note is how DDO didn't really need "Tanks" until very recently, and even then their utility is questionable outside of a few niche roles. That's probably why its been hardest for DDO, the game is ancient and this is the first time "need tank" has appeared in an LFG.

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tanks only needed recently.. in reaper a tank is almost always useful to keep the squishys alive..

Also Voodu tank build post was started in 2015. so hes been using tank builds a lot more often then """recently"" seeing as that build is 7 years old...

Hey maybe im just completely wrong and something recent is more like 10 years to some.

DDO have a great thing that no other MMO have: decades of Pen aNd Paper rules. When in doubt I think those rules should be taken in consideration because they are field tested for millions of players worldwide.

Ok, others mmos had different solutions and DDO is online. But still finding solution on PNP is something others mmos don´t do because they can´t. Also most fantasy games have some more or less D&D influence. In doubt 3.5 D&D should be used. Then other D&D rules. Then any creation from the developers. DDO must always become more D&Dish. Not less D&D in every change.

Two details here: One is about PRR on a game that already have DR. The other is Armor class and spells that don´t scale on epics. Both things that needed some attention before thinking about the melee pass. Why I say it? first because I don´t think that melees are weak or need a pass today. Second because the next elephant in the room will be the Dodge bypass mobs that will add one more calculation to a already crowded and laggy system and one more mechanic that don´t add any fun to the game. But once they put this on DDO it will be forever bringing more problems than solutions to players.

So... they have a good amount of things on their plate right now and we must have a bit of patience. I just hope that the launch goes well and that the pack have good quests. Hope that update 51 was worth the manpower used in it, so far it haven´t. But it´s a good topic of discussion. More than melees I think that tanks needed some more help, as the AC scaling trough epic levels should exist for everyclasses.

OP - unless you are talking only about high end reaper raids I think you are incorrect.

I group with players on "tanky dps builds" often. We are talking melee builds/players that tank 2 Dooms at a time on R10 yet still get a decent number of kills. So, as far as I am concerned your entire assertion that its not possible to play a tanky dps build in DDO is incorrect wrt. quests. Reaper raids are an entirely different matter though.

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

Also of note is how DDO didn't really need "Tanks" until very recently, and even then their utility is questionable outside of a few niche roles. That's probably why its been hardest for DDO, the game is ancient and this is the first time "need tank" has appeared in an LFG.

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Pre MOTU, tanks were always pretty much required in raids. E.G. in TOD a raid party usually liked to have 2 tanks for the end fight. 1 for Horoth, 1 for Sulo. made things much easier. Of course, those were different days than now. There was no power creep like we have now. Raids always desired 2 dedicated healers, a couple of casters, tank and the rest dps, ranged or melee. Now its just a zergfest with all the bloated stats, enhancement trees and uber equipment.

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

Also of note is how DDO didn't really need "Tanks" until very recently

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Indeed, early in the game, 'tanks' were high dps characters who could hold agro, have decent hp (healers had a more important role back then). Barbarians were popular for this role.


OP has an interesting take, and I'll add that 'dps' in today's game is a glass cannon, with defense (in practice) no greater than ranged/casters/rogue sneak attackers. And it continues to go backwards. Meld was a great 'oh crud' moment defense that helped, and the dodge changes coming after the expansion feel to disproportionally impact melee dps.

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Originally Posted by Ganak

Indeed, early in the game, 'tanks' were high dps characters who could hold agro, have decent hp (healers had a more important role back then). Barbarians were popular for this role.


OP has an interesting take, and I'll add that 'dps' in today's game is a glass cannon, with defense (in practice) no greater than ranged/casters/rogue sneak attackers. And it continues to go backwards. Meld was a great 'oh crud' moment defense that helped, and the dodge changes coming after the expansion feel to disproportionally impact melee dps.

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Dodge changes where dropped from Isle. Also yea my early raid tanker I used to run with was a warforged FvS wielding a greatsword(even for ToD).

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Originally Posted by blarhblarhblarh

DDO have a great thing that no other MMO have: decades of Pen aNd Paper rules. When in doubt I think those rules should be taken in consideration because they are field tested for millions of players worldwide.

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You will not find a tested balance solution for "Tanking" in any PnP official rules supplement.

The decades on PnP rules are the root of the problem, and will not help you to solve it (hence the failed attempts to solve it by tacking on other rules systems, such as PRR/MRR, the current AC vs Attack chart, percentile DR, %dodge)

The easiest way to do it would be to revert to PRR to only taking armor type and BAB (Capped to 25 like it is for attack speed) into account, with monks getting light armor PRR while centered, and medium armor PRR while centered in earth stance. Then rescale everything with the knowledge that top-end PRR pegs at 50% and a light armor melee with full BAB tops out at 25%. I don't know why they thought adding a system where values could fall anywhere between 0 and >600 and then scaling everything to 100/(100+n) % was going to give them a good and easy to balance system in perpetuity, but clearly they were wrong and the inflation of mob damage over time shows how badly imbalanced this system is.

The problem there is, the last time they tried to unwind power creep it did not go well.

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Originally Posted by mikarddo

OP - unless you are talking only about high end reaper raids I think you are incorrect.

I group with players on "tanky dps builds" often. We are talking melee builds/players that tank 2 Dooms at a time on R10 yet still get a decent number of kills. So, as far as I am concerned your entire assertion that its not possible to play a tanky dps build in DDO is incorrect wrt. quests. Reaper raids are an entirely different matter though.

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How many past lives and RXP do those players have?
Also, can you detail exactly how they mitigate all the damage coming from 2 dooms on R10 while actively doing DPS?

Just because you saw one ripped guy doing it, doesn't mean it's accessible for the average player (AKA the majority of players). The exception should not make the rule.

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Originally Posted by Orangine

How many past lives and RXP do those players have?

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I have two characters using similar builds that have done it with 3x HPL, 2xEPL, and 35?'ish RXP (well, reaper points, 'dunno how much RXP that means). All my chars are low-life and low-RXP -- only got 50+ RXP on a couple very recently. Look up Tilo's "Flower" builds for the basic idea.

"Tanking" with these characters is nowhere near what most people think of as tanking. You never EVER just stand and take it while dishing out DPS. It's more a matter of CC, Intimidate, Dodge, and classic lag exploitation (you can make it work in your favor, too). DPS happens when stuff is CC'd.

Doom tanking is only 20s every 120s. If the party doesn't wake up and slaughter them fast enough, I'm giblets. The builds only work as sole tank with ADD healers on crack. Done primary on R10 a couple times at the urging of the healer, but it's best as an Off-Tank past R6.

The real reason it can only off-tank, though, is that DDO's team just can't tolerate a tank doing any DPS or any character tanking without plate + shield. The players certainly don't mind, but just look at the "tank sets" in game -- all plate & shield. Look at MRR & PRR for the armor types. It actually runs counter to D&D.

D&D doesn't care if your AC comes from Light+Dex or from Plate+Shield. It's only DDO that cares.

BTW, defensive mitigation scaling should all be on AC and none of it on BAB to remain true to D&D. BAB + Armor Weight scaling is what's causing the problem.

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Originally Posted by Bjond

BTW, defensive mitigation scaling should all be on AC and none of it on BAB to remain true to D&D. BAB + Armor Weight scaling is what's causing the problem.

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AC is a damage avoidance mechanic and in both PnP and DDO, it only works when incoming damage is lower than max HP. BAB + Armor Weight scaling is a direct response to the ~4 years of >90% of characters wearing robes because armor AC was worthless (and capped out at +13 from any set of +5 full plate) compared to stacking AC from numerous effects, including using getting multiple sources of different amounts of dodge AC, dex, wis, shield AC from non-shield sources, natural armor, etc. But that's from the era of khopesh supremacy and everyone in a raid wearing DT and and Minos.

As every PnP player and most DDO players should know, "remaining true to D&D" is not a recipe for balance, but it does make an acceptable guidestone, because DDO should feel like D&D, not try to replicate its systems verbatim.

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Originally Posted by Strider1963

Pre MOTU, tanks were always pretty much required in raids. E.G. in TOD a raid party usually liked to have 2 tanks for the end fight. 1 for Horoth, 1 for Sulo.

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This is what I mean by "niche roles". You needed a tank for some(most?) raids but generally not for day-to-day play(compare to other MMOs where you need the holy trinity to go out and grind trash mobs). Also:

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Originally Posted by Ganak

Indeed, early in the game, 'tanks' were high dps characters who could hold agro, have decent hp (healers had a more important role back then). Barbarians were popular for this role.

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In those few niche roles virtually any melee could tank. I even tanked a few raids despite having not remotely built around tanking.

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Originally Posted by adamkatt

Also Voodu tank build post was started in 2015. so hes been using tank builds a lot more often then """recently"" seeing as that build is 7 years old...

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Just because someone was making a tank build in 2015 didn't mean tanks were necessary. I'm quite positive that the day DDO released, some long-time EverQuest player signed in, rolled a fighter, then proudly announced to the first party he joined "I'm the tank!" while still a lvl 1.

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Originally Posted by adamkatt

tanks only needed recently.. in reaper a tank is almost always useful to keep the squishys alive..

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Point of order: "useful" and "required" do not mean the same thing. Note this down before you take those SATs.

The introduction of Reaper Difficulty would be the "recently" I am referring to. And yes I know it came out in 2017, but from the introduction it took about two years before the meta shifted to where we are now. So yes it has only been recently that dedicated tanks started to be in demand.

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Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

AC only works when incoming damage is lower than max HP [..] "remaining true to D&D" is not a recipe for balance, but it does make an acceptable guidestone, because DDO should feel like D&D

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This is boils it right down to the nub. They could have balanced things out by adding %mitigation to AC and adjusting AC on gear to scale up more with level instead of going counter to D&D by using armor weight. AC can become quite high these days with gear and enhancements stacking it.

AC is the quintessential D&D stat for "less physical damage taken". New stats make the game feel MUCH less D&D.

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

Reaper Difficulty would be the "recently" [..] only been recently that dedicated tanks started to be in demand.

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It's shifting away again very quickly. Caster and ranged DPS is so high that I can "tank" R10 on my rogue. I just intim and CC to group them into a pack and let the blasters go wild. Adrenaline on anything that looks to squirrel out of the killing pack mostly solves the rest.

I think this kind of build is what inspired their dodge-nerf thoughts. I'm not the only one doing it and yeah, it's a heavy dodge build. The thing is, it's not the dodge that makes it possible. It's blaster AE. Any time I have to toe-off with something to tank it, the healer has to slap me silly with their SP bar.

Also, and back on the OP topic: exactly what is wrong with a dodgy melee DPS doing this? It's definitely true to D&D. It's not DPS'ing while tanking. The only weirdness lies completely in developer attitude; ie. it's not a plate, not using a tower shield, and not cowering in place like a turtle (and oh what fun that is to play -- gee, thanks for supporting that style).

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Originally Posted by Bjond

I think this kind of build is what inspired their dodge-nerf thoughts. I'm not the only one doing it and yeah, it's a heavy dodge build. The thing is, it's not the dodge that makes it possible. It's blaster AE. Any time I have to toe-off with something to tank it, the healer has to slap me silly with their SP bar.

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Whats interesting is that several elements of the game prove that they can code "if then else" conditional effects. Take Swashbuckler as the easiest example I can dig out in 22 seconds of searching: "Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor." <--If they can code an effect like that, why not code various bonuses that only apply to melee?

So dodge is too powerful when used by dodge-heavy ranged builds? Ok, nerf it for characters holding a ranged weapon. What we have here is instead a lot like the inquisitive nerf whereby the over-powered elements are left as-is but everyone not abusing them gets punished.

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

Whats interesting is that several elements of the game prove that they can code "if then else" conditional effects. Take Swashbuckler as the easiest example I can dig out in 22 seconds of searching: "Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor." <--If they can code an effect like that, why not code various bonuses that only apply to melee?

So dodge is too powerful when used by dodge-heavy ranged builds? Ok, nerf it for characters holding a ranged weapon. What we have here is instead a lot like the inquisitive nerf whereby the over-powered elements are left as-is but everyone not abusing them gets punished.

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An if/then for ranged works, except possibly for throwers with a melee weapon in the offhand (eg, Celestia as a DR breaker). But casters are the problem here; any ideas how to if/then those while making the bonuses just the right level of appealing?

- Base it on held weapons? Most casters use two weapons anyway, and if the anti-caster benefits are too strong they'll swap a melee weapon or run one full-time
- Base it on armor type? That's the point of ASF and doesn't solve the FvS / Druid issue
- Base it on levels? That discourages hybrids and build options
- Base it on weapon feats? Alchemists / Wizards / Artificers get a bunch of feats and will emerge victorious. If the benefits are good enough, other casters may also dump their feats. Casters aren't as reliant on feats as melee, so veterans who hit DCs without too much difficulty will still get the best of both worlds, especially in heroic
- Base it on skills? Offhand, that would mean penalizing players for taking Spellcraft and Heal, which hurts hybrid specs/classes and monks, and frankly aren't contributing that much anyway

butp

butp

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Originally Posted by Strider1963

Pre MOTU, tanks were always pretty much required in raids. E.G. in TOD a raid party usually liked to have 2 tanks for the end fight. 1 for Horoth, 1 for Sulo. made things much easier. Of course, those were different days than now. There was no power creep like we have now. Raids always desired 2 dedicated healers, a couple of casters, tank and the rest dps, ranged or melee. Now its just a zergfest with all the bloated stats, enhancement trees and uber equipment.

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This is a really good short description of why power creep damages MMO's.

DDO power creep is kind of unique in that the game and the power structure never really resets at any point barring the devs suddenly realizing that a recent change was too power creepy and correcting as in the FvS nerfs.

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Originally Posted by Discpsycho

An if/then for ranged works, except possibly for throwers with a melee weapon in the offhand (eg, Celestia as a DR breaker). But casters are the problem here; any ideas how to if/then those while making the bonuses just the right level of appealing?

- Base it on held weapons? Most casters use two weapons anyway, and if the anti-caster benefits are too strong they'll swap a melee weapon or run one full-time
- Base it on armor type? That's the point of ASF and doesn't solve the FvS / Druid issue
- Base it on levels? That discourages hybrids and build options
- Base it on weapon feats? Alchemists / Wizards / Artificers get a bunch of feats and will emerge victorious. If the benefits are good enough, other casters may also dump their feats. Casters aren't as reliant on feats as melee, so veterans who hit DCs without too much difficulty will still get the best of both worlds, especially in heroic
- Base it on skills? Offhand, that would mean penalizing players for taking Spellcraft and Heal, which hurts hybrid specs/classes and monks, and frankly aren't contributing that much anyway

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First solution: don't worry too much about it. Casters being able to get a bit more defense that was meant for melees just isn't that big of a deal

Second thought: make the defense situational. If its an "on-hit" effect then it doesn't do a ranged caster much good since he's trying to avoid getting hit.

Next idea: put the defensive buffs into the melee style feats, or add them as feats with a melee style prerequisite and a stacking bonus for additional style feats. For example: there's no real reason at all for a pure sorc nuker to take 2-weapon-fighting even if they are carrying around two weapons. If the defensive feats improve along with the feat line, that just makes non-melees have to invest even more in feats they can't use to get the full benefit.

So for example, let's take a feat that already exists: Two Weapon Defense. Right now, these feat is hot garbage. But imagine if it wasn't. Imagine if, and I am not suggesting these be the actual numbers; but imagine if taking the feat provided the following: "If you have Two Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Defense, +10 PRR and MRR. If you have Imp. 2wf, get an additional +25. If you have Greater 2wf, another +25." That adds up to a total of +65 PRR/MRR for a character with all 4 feats that would only possibly take all 4 of them if they were a melee. Obviously there are several other mechanics that could be used, like AC and Dodge(assuming it doesn't get nerfed from orbit).

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

First solution: don't worry too much about it. Casters being able to get a bit more defense that was meant for melees just isn't that big of a deal

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At least in theory, the idea is for caster to be more of glass cannons - higher risk, higher reward, just liked ranged folks. Most Sorcs and Wizards already take 23 points in EK for medium armor, which when combined with massive spellpoint pools and easy healing from EDs makes them tankier than melees. Any % benefit to beefy casters will scale with their superior healing, exacerbating the issue.

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

Second thought: make the defense situational. If its an "on-hit" effect then it doesn't do a ranged caster much good since he's trying to avoid getting hit.

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But in R10 rocket tag, everyone is trying to avoid getting hit. If a squishy melee (clothie, rogue) does get hit, it might be curtains, and the on-hit benefit will really only help the armored-up folks...which is everyone except Alch, Monk, Rogue and Ranger

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

Next idea: put the defensive buffs into the melee style feats, or add them as feats with a melee style prerequisite and a stacking bonus for additional style feats. For example: there's no real reason at all for a pure sorc nuker to take 2-weapon-fighting even if they are carrying around two weapons. If the defensive feats improve along with the feat line, that just makes non-melees have to invest even more in feats they can't use to get the full benefit.

So for example, let's take a feat that already exists: Two Weapon Defense. Right now, these feat is hot garbage. But imagine if it wasn't. Imagine if, and I am not suggesting these be the actual numbers; but imagine if taking the feat provided the following: "If you have Two Weapon Fighting and Two Weapon Defense, +10 PRR and MRR. If you have Imp. 2wf, get an additional +25. If you have Greater 2wf, another +25." That adds up to a total of +65 PRR/MRR for a character with all 4 feats that would only possibly take all 4 of them if they were a melee. Obviously there are several other mechanics that could be used, like AC and Dodge(assuming it doesn't get nerfed from orbit).

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This I can get behind. But to play devil's advocate, Alchs and EKs come out on top here, as they get free feats, and ultimately this would exacerbate the EDF issue where it behooves some casters to play in melee range.

Some other type of opportunity cost? Build it into LD (seems the best thematic fit) and suddenly EKs have to choose between spellsword dice and defenses, though that costs melees not primarily LD-focused some of their other ED spread...

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Originally Posted by Bjond

Melee is not hard to balance, but many MMOs struggle with it. Why they struggle is very simple and has nothing to do with DPS v Mitigation v Agro and everything to do with Developer mindset.

All MMO developer teams have two gauges for what makes up a tank: how much DPS it can do before they think of it as a DPS and how much damage it can take before they think of it as a tank. Permitting anything to cross those lines is abhorrent -- they'll often consider crazy changes to keep those lines "safe".

In DDO, the DPS gauge for tanks is lower than any other MMO I've ever played. It's basically zero. If a tank in our raids gets a kill, he makes fun of the entire raid.

The mitigation gauge is similarly pegged in DDO. If you're living through two hits as DPS, you're stealing the tank's show here.

In most MMO's, a tank does about 60~80% of the DPS of a DPS-focused character. They usually solo amazingly well, often much better than pure DPS. They are still not played as often because tanks are seen as leaders and most players just want to have fun without responsibility for other's fun.

Same thing for DPS playing as a tank. Usually they can, but not at the highest levels and not without extra effort. In DDO, this is almost impossible -- can be done, but it's v.rare and the healing effort required is pretty extreme (eg. spam healing).

So, you want to balance melee in DDO? The first step is to adjust those dials. You have them pegged at extremes that are making balance impossible. I think you'll find that trinity play will GREATLY increase when tanks can do enough dps to solo simply because that's the major reason I hear for people not liking to play them in DDO.

BTW, adjusting those little cultural bias dials on tank v DPS will not be easy. The only MMOs I've seen make even a slight adaptation there was FFXI (for blink tanks) and EQ1 (for monk FD pulling & tanking).

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EQ2 is not as good a game EQ1, but Tanks can actually solo and DPS better than EQ1.

When I last played EQ2, around 2018 or 2019 I guess, I was always in the top 5 or 6 in DPS in raids. I was an SK Tank and MT for my guild. Tanks were actually fun to play, unlike DDO

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Originally Posted by Discpsycho

At least in theory, the idea is for caster to be more of glass cannons - higher risk, higher reward, just liked ranged folks. Most Sorcs and Wizards already take 23 points in EK for medium armor, which when combined with massive spellpoint pools and easy healing from EDs makes them tankier than melees. Any % benefit to beefy casters will scale with their superior healing, exacerbating the issue.

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That is the problem right now, isn't it? But that's also really not a problem. Making casters into glass cannons makes them unable to solo, and every class needs to be able to solo reasonably well. Its just a necessity of the MMO format.

Let me tell you the story of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. If you ever played Everquest back in 1999/2000, you probably heard several of the devs talk about "The Vision", which was shorthand for "You can't take a dump in our game without the tank/dps/healing holly trinity helping you out". Every time someone did find a way to solo, the devs nerfed it from orbit in order to bring the game back in line with "The Vision". Those devs then left the game, and things improved dramatically. Those same devs then created Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, which could best be described as "The Vision 2.0". Vanguard initially sold a quarter of a million copies but within months the subscriber base dropped to just 40,000. The game never got any major content updates and shut down completely after just 6 years.

As it turns out, people really don't want to play a game that is completely toxic to soloing.

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Originally Posted by Discpsycho

But in R10 rocket tag, everyone is trying to avoid getting hit. If a squishy melee (clothie, rogue) does get hit, it might be curtains, and the on-hit benefit will really only help the armored-up folks...which is everyone except Alch, Monk, Rogue and Ranger

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Exactly how much of the population do you think plays on R10? Let me rephrase that: the devs have repeatedly and explicitly stated that they do not and will not design the game exclusively around high-skull reapers. So any statement that starts with "But in R10" is automatically invalid.

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Originally Posted by Discpsycho

This I can get behind. But to play devil's advocate, Alchs and EKs come out on top here, as they get free feats, and ultimately this would exacerbate the EDF issue where it behooves some casters to play in melee range.

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I would actually like to posit that this is not a problem. If an alchemist(thrower or nuker, doesn't matter) wants to sink 4 feats into melee feats to get a defense buff, thats 4 fewer feats they have to spend on things useful to their primary function. The end result is a weaker alchemist. Everything in the game is about making trade-offs, this is just enough defense vs. offense trade.

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Originally Posted by Discpsycho

Some other type of opportunity cost? Build it into LD (seems the best thematic fit) and suddenly EKs have to choose between spellsword dice and defenses, though that costs melees not primarily LD-focused some of their other ED spread...

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Building it into an LD means its exclusively only available after level 20. Between HTR and RTR thats a part of the game people spend a ton of time in.

I think feats provide the best opportunity cost. Remember that every time a ranged/spellcaster takes a feat to get defenses designed for melees, they're giving up a feat needed for being more effective at what they are supposed to be doing. If we hide the best defenses behind a wall of only-useful for melee feats, melees get a bump and ranged has to take a dip to get the same bump.

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

That is the problem right now, isn't it? But that's also really not a problem. Making casters into glass cannons makes them unable to solo, and every class needs to be able to solo reasonably well. Its just a necessity of the MMO format.

Let me tell you the story of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. If you ever played Everquest back in 1999/2000, you probably heard several of the devs talk about "The Vision", which was shorthand for "You can't take a dump in our game without the tank/dps/healing holly trinity helping you out". Every time someone did find a way to solo, the devs nerfed it from orbit in order to bring the game back in line with "The Vision". Those devs then left the game, and things improved dramatically. Those same devs then created Vanguard: Saga of Heroes, which could best be described as "The Vision 2.0". Vanguard initially sold a quarter of a million copies but within months the subscriber base dropped to just 40,000. The game never got any major content updates and shut down completely after just 6 years.

As it turns out, people really don't want to play a game that is completely toxic to soloing.



Exactly how much of the population do you think plays on R10? Let me rephrase that: the devs have repeatedly and explicitly stated that they do not and will not design the game exclusively around high-skull reapers. So any statement that starts with "But in R10" is automatically invalid.



I would actually like to posit that this is not a problem. If an alchemist(thrower or nuker, doesn't matter) wants to sink 4 feats into melee feats to get a defense buff, thats 4 fewer feats they have to spend on things useful to their primary function. The end result is a weaker alchemist. Everything in the game is about making trade-offs, this is just enough defense vs. offense trade.



Building it into an LD means its exclusively only available after level 20. Between HTR and RTR thats a part of the game people spend a ton of time in.

I think feats provide the best opportunity cost. Remember that every time a ranged/spellcaster takes a feat to get defenses designed for melees, they're giving up a feat needed for being more effective at what they are supposed to be doing. If we hide the best defenses behind a wall of only-useful for melee feats, melees get a bump and ranged has to take a dip to get the same bump.

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Almost every single point in this response is invalid sorry.

Every MMOs goal is to promote team play. Otherwise it would be a stand alone game. Although I agree ones that do not allow solo play are not good ones, every class should not be able to solo. I would venture to say if you want a top DPS and AOE damage, you should be a glass cannon.

Despite what the devs say about high skull, and reaper in general, every nerf is centered around reaper or hardcore. As a matter of fact, reaper gains are the very heart of this games balance issues, so it’s totally valid for devs to intervene.

Some spend time on RTRs and HTRs but I would say the majority of players spend time in ETRs and end game. Heroic content hasn’t been hard for a long time. It has everything to do with speed back to heroic cap. Gating buffs to melee defenses behind level 20 is not an issue.

Although none of these options seem ideal to me. I am OK with tying defensive buffs to feats or an ED, but anything at range should not be privy as they have damage avoidance in the form of being range. Maybe the trade off is only being active if holding a specific weapon type? Like everything that isn’t considered an implement. Or retyping martial staffs to a different type and the same for scepters.

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Originally Posted by jskinner937

Almost every single point in this response is invalid sorry.

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No, you just have really poor reading comprehension.

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Originally Posted by jskinner937

Every MMOs goal is to promote team play. Otherwise it would be a stand alone game. Although I agree ones that do not allow solo play are not good ones, every class should not be able to solo. I would venture to say if you want a top DPS and AOE damage, you should be a glass cannon.

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Go back and re-read about Vangaurd: Saga of Heroes again, and then tell me that over-promotion of grouping mechanics in a game with a small player base is a good idea. I dare you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jskinner937

Despite what the devs say about high skull, and reaper in general, every nerf is centered around reaper or hardcore. As a matter of fact, reaper gains are the very heart of this games balance issues, so it’s totally valid for devs to intervene.

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If that's the case then the devs are going back on their word. And that's what will kill the game in the long run, just as quickly as statements like this:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jskinner937

Some spend time on RTRs and HTRs but I would say the majority of players spend time in ETRs and end game. Heroic content hasn’t been hard for a long time. It has everything to do with speed back to heroic cap. Gating buffs to melee defenses behind level 20 is not an issue.

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Your logic appears to be that the game exists only for vets/established players. Ok, great. If we all think like you, the game will be in maintenance mode in a year or two. There's no point in trying to improve it, its already dead. They just haven't pulled the plug. When a game stops serving new players, that's the beginning of the end. Paying customers are quitting this game every single day; if new players don't replace them, can you guess what happens?

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

No, you just have really poor reading comprehension.



Go back and re-read about Vangaurd: Saga of Heroes again, and then tell me that over-promotion of grouping mechanics in a game with a small player base is a good idea. I dare you.



If that's the case then the devs are going back on their word. And that's what will kill the game in the long run, just as quickly as statements like this:



Your logic appears to be that the game exists only for vets/established players. Ok, great. If we all think like you, the game will be in maintenance mode in a year or two. There's no point in trying to improve it, its already dead. They just haven't pulled the plug. When a game stops serving new players, that's the beginning of the end. Paying customers are quitting this game every single day; if new players don't replace them, can you guess what happens?

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The game gets constantly updated and expansions it’s not going anywhere anytime soon what the poster is suggesting is that you play the game

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

every class needs to be able to solo reasonably well. Its just a necessity of the MMO format.

Let me tell you the story of Vanguard: Saga of Heroes. [...] people really don't want to play a game that is completely toxic to soloing.

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Rather off-topic and also grossly incorrect about Vanguard. I played it both in beta and release and solo was easy and not hated at all. It had many other very severe problems: if you didn't have a PC that was far beyond the typical top of the line, you could barely play. Devs added gold cheats for friends, which then got found and exploited by gold-sellers. Devs hassled 3rd party web sites to ban people that posted anything remotely negative. I witnessed all of these personally.

It was basically destruction by toxic dev behavior and refusing to listen to plethora of beta and release feedback warning them over and over about these issues.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jskinner937

Every MMOs goal is to promote team play.

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It's a spectrum. Some MMOs lean heavily toward groups being 10x as more productive than solo (eg. FFXI). Some are mostly solo with some grouping for fun (eg. SWL). Neither solo nor group play is critical to an MMO.

The key factor is that the MMO has to provide something fun to do when you log in -- ideally more fun than not logging in.

In an MMO with as tiny a population as DDO and one as spread out across a huge range of levels, difficulties, content lockouts, and personal tastes, supporting solo play does indeed become paramount even if every solo player would far rather be grouping. DDO has too much toast and not enough butter.

Based on changes made by the devs to the game, grouping is obviously the desire. This is fine and even aligns with my own preferences. BUT, they're going about it the wrong way. Hammering down solo ability is not the way because that forces people to downgrade difficulty to boring levels or log off 90% of the time due to group not available.

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Back to the original premise, these problems are artificial. They're not problems until a developer decides to force particular style ideals onto the populace after working valid (but contrary) styles evolve.

The overwhelming goal should be to promote conditions under which players have fun in the game. Nerf progress when it's too fast, buff difficulty when it's too easy, and balance similar strength. DDO doesn't do this, though. They're driven by internal style preferences such as "tanks wear plate" and "it's OK because it's magic".

Changes need to be checked against meta-effect. The meta is paramount. The story behind things is infinitely malleable and should never ever drive changes. Good changes grow the meta. Bad ones shrink it. Discovering a new build to do something that's OK for the game as evidenced by what other builds can do is a good thing.

Here's a strength balance example: it's obviously OK for a single character to press one button and have a 10 critters be held. The same character can then DPS these down with a few more buttons. So, it's OK for one character to have both strong reliable CC on a short CD and very high AE DPS. Yet, no physical DPS characters (neither melee nor ranged) offer any compelling ability other than DPS (and much MUCH lower AE DPS when they can do it).

IMHO, the attitude in general is sourced in D&D; ie. "it's MAGIC, therefor anything goes". Or, "it's physical, therefor it has to make sense" (and the "sense" usually doesn't match physics or medieval history). It's just that without regard to game balance, some styles have inherently more stringent requirements.

Still w8ing for some melee def buff or ac revamp or some respond from dev :)