U49 Bow Max DPS Build Complete Guide

Complete write up is available in Google Docs because 12 pages is too much for the forum software. It includes race selection and attributes, feats, gear, filigree, enhancements, epic destiny information, and a thorough breakdown of sources for all the important stats.

Highlights:
100 DEX
098 INT for Know the Angles
364 Ranged Power (402 boosted) without mythic/reaper items
142 Doubleshot (190 boosted)
128 Fortification Bypass (158 for red/purple named)
213 To-Hit
220 Base weapon damage
021 Favored enemy damage (9 different types)
121 Sneak attack damage (136 boosted)
037 Critical damage
198 PRR without mythic/reaper items
100 MRR

If you can do better, then post it. It literally says that at the start of the guide. I ran numbers for a couple of different builds, including WIS-based, FvS splashes, and monk splashes and the DEX pure ranger came out on top thanks to the 3 SA dice, +4 DEX and 20 RP from the capstone.

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Originally Posted by xTethx

Bows gonna still be meh until maybe new tree

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Yep. Bows aren't a meta super DPS build -- melee are still far superior for damage output. Bows against favored enemies are just the best damage option when ranged is desired/required. Against non-favored enemies, I think throwing dagger is still ahead though I haven't recalculated that since earlier Lams.

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Originally Posted by Carpone

Bows against favored enemies are just the best damage option when ranged is desired/required. Against non-favored enemies, I think throwing dagger is still ahead though I haven't recalculated that since earlier Lams.

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I take it this statement is assuming an 11/6/3 thrower instead of pure ranger? You say thrower > bow, and ranger > split vs favored enemies, why still run one or the other instead of combining them into pure ranger dagger thrower? With pure ranger and a twist you can get enough favored enemies that nearly everything you ever fight at cap will be a favored enemy, so pretty much the only time your dps would pull ahead in a relevant way on the split is against an undead or construct boss which is otherwise immune to sneak attack.

EDIT: want to clarify that I understand this thread is looking at bows specifically due to their update, but I'm asking about what you'd choose for an overall max dps ranged build

- Wallwatch armor and gloves
- Collective Sight

+ Legendary Tinkerer's Goggles
+ Legendary Tinkerer's Gloves
+ Whatever armor you want. Medium armor swap-in? Winter armor to go with the belt?

I'm sure that the insightful and quality Seeker/Deception is worth more than the 5 ranged power.

- Direwolf Belt + Cornerstone Champion maybe?

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Originally Posted by Carpone

Complete write up is available in Google Docs because 12 pages is too much for the forum software. It includes race selection and attributes, feats, gear, filigree, enhancements, epic destiny information, and a thorough breakdown of sources for all the important stats.

Highlights:
100 DEX
098 INT for Know the Angles
364 Ranged Power (402 boosted) without mythic/reaper items
142 Doubleshot (190 boosted)
128 Fortification Bypass (158 for red/purple named)
213 To-Hit
220 Base weapon damage
021 Favored enemy damage (9 different types)
121 Sneak attack damage (136 boosted)
037 Critical damage
198 PRR without mythic/reaper items
100 MRR

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Interesting. Well written Google document - I liked the helpful comments too. Looks like quite a lot of work and thought went into it.

Alas, for various reasons most of it is irrelevant to me, but I'm sure it is of help - even if only as a starting point for discussion - for others.

Still, it was well worth reading.

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Originally Posted by Kmnh

- Wallwatch armor and gloves
- Collective Sight

+ Legendary Tinkerer's Goggles
+ Legendary Tinkerer's Gloves
+ Whatever armor you want. Medium armor swap-in? Winter armor to go with the belt?

I'm sure that the insightful and quality Seeker/Deception is worth more than the 5 ranged power.

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+5 seeker is 8.125 dmg averaged across all hits (assume you're missing on a roll of 1-3). Losing 5 RP is -8.25 SA dmg less per hit, and -12.05 base+FE dmg less per hit.

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Originally Posted by donblas

I really have no idea what this means!

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jelly = jealousy

Nice stats! Approx when does Ethereal Plance pull ahead of Arborea? I didnt try Ethereal yet.
Also since you swap for KtA, you can also swap to Deadly Raid fili for +20RP boosting if you like.

Ethereal is 22-33 more dmg per hit (55-84 when fully boosting) than Arborea, depending if you need to apply SA vulnerability via Sniper Shot or not.

I included the Deadly Rain 5pc swap in the guide, which brings the burst RP to 422.

Hey great guide. I was wondering if you have any suggestions for an halfing archer that wants to stay 12 monk / 6 ranger / X split for abundant step?(since you mentioned you looked at other builds)

I realize I'd be losing 10K stars in this new patch, but that just means more ki for stepping :P I'm ok with giving up some DPS for this utility. I'm currently wis / harper based.

Should I stay wis? Should I go dex/int/2rogue? Currently 2 fighter since originally I dabbled in Kensai pre-falconry.

Interesting thoughts.

Warforged-variant needs an adjustment though, as you can only choose the Improved Power Attack enhancement, if you have the Power Attack feat (breaking the MRR cap seems intruiging, that's why I noticed).

Thanks so much for this, I used to main ranger, But haven't in YEARS !! So Im glad to be able to get back into it and freshen up my knowledge !

When leveling is it still best to just use AA > DW?

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Originally Posted by johngalt317

Hey great guide. I was wondering if you have any suggestions for an halfing archer that wants to stay 12 monk / 6 ranger / X split for abundant step?

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You can easily flex to WIS based using the same gearset. Not sure why you'd want both Falconry and Harper when you're WIS based though. I understand the draw of Abundant Step. Lack of movement speed is the number one drawback of this build compared to other ranged builds. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Misty Step ability added within the Horizon Walker tree. Dimension Door is key feature within the PnP version, but the implementation of DDoor within DDO doesn't meet the spirit of the PnP design.

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Originally Posted by Pandjed

Warforged-variant needs an adjustment though, as you can only choose the Improved Power Attack enhancement, if you have the Power Attack feat (breaking the MRR cap seems intruiging, that's why I noticed).

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Thank you, it's been removed. I was eyeballing that since I didn't have time to roll all of the variants on Lam during the last preview. We used Warforged ranged during our R10 KT because of the MRR. It's still squishy compared to melee, and I'd drop the boots and belt for LGS 2pc Opposition in that situation.

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Originally Posted by Walls

Thanks so much for this, I used to main ranger, But haven't in YEARS !! So Im glad to be able to get back into it and freshen up my knowledge !

When leveling is it still best to just use AA > DW?

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The build is intended to be the defacto informative resource for players exploring bows again in U49. I've come across many cringe worthy and misinformed bow builds while raiding and reading the forums, including "acid arrow" and bizarre fort bypass builds that focus on feels instead of DPS.

I'd go DWS for leveling, with enough AP in AA for the returning arrows.

[QUOTE=Carpone;6425501]You can easily flex to WIS based using the same gearset. Not sure why you'd want both Falconry and Harper when you're WIS based though. I understand the draw of Abundant Step. Lack of movement speed is the number one drawback of this build compared to other ranged builds. I wouldn't be surprised to see a Misty Step ability added within the Horizon Walker tree. Dimension Door is key feature within the PnP version, but the implementation of DDoor within DDO doesn't meet the spirit of the PnP design.

Sorry that should have said wis/falconry :P

Would you still focus on ranged power versus wis filligrees in that case?

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Originally Posted by johngalt317

Would you still focus on ranged power versus wis filligrees in that case?

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Ranged Power >>>>> stat filigree. It's straight up math.

I don't recommend WIS-based bows. The job of DPS is to do damage, and WIS based is suboptimal DPS compared to DEX based. If paralyzing arrows caused helplessness, there might be a case for it for RXP. But it doesn't. AA is one of the oldest trees and it has not aged well.

From the release notes:
"
Feat Bonus: 10%
The remaining 10% needed for Bows to reach 25% could have come from a number of sources, but we decided to keep it in place on one of the earliest sources available to most Bow users - the Rapid Shot feat.
This means that the following sources of Bow attack speed have been removed:

Shot on the Run no longer gives 10% attack speed with Longbows and Shortbows; its Ranged Power grant has been improved from +3 to +6. (Note that the Ranged Power is not Bow-specific).
"

Does this change the build?

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Originally Posted by Carpone

Ranged Power >>>>> stat filigree. It's straight up math.

I don't recommend WIS-based bows. The job of DPS is to do damage, and WIS based is suboptimal DPS compared to DEX based. If paralyzing arrows caused helplessness, there might be a case for it for RXP. But it doesn't. AA is one of the oldest trees and it has not aged well.

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The WIS is for battle stance/falconry attacks which do cause helplessness, and falconry is also for fort bypass and helpless dmg. Granted the single target CC is quite subpar compared to true CC'ers, but beggars can't be choosers since I don't always have CC in my parties.

Given I'm in DWS/Falconry I am still not sure whether I should be DEX or WIS based since I'm using WIS for my battle stance. Maybe I could do a WIS item swap like in your build, but I prob should calculate out sources of Dex/Wis to understand which would end up higher. For Wis I'd be running GM ocean stance for ki regen, whereas the air stance does nothing for an archer at the moment. I'm hoping they eventually add doubleshot to air stance :P

Updated the guide to provide clarity around favored enemy choices. Thanks to those who reached out via DMs. Speaking of which, if you sent me a Discord friend invite to discuss, please resend. While on a conference call, I was distracted and ended up hitting "Ignore" instead of "Accept" to several requests. Oops.

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Originally Posted by xberto

Does this change the build?

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No. The build is based on Lamannia U49 Preview 3. Nothing has changed between that and live.

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Originally Posted by johngalt317

The WIS is for battle stance/falconry attacks which do cause helplessness, and falconry is also for fort bypass and helpless dmg. Granted the single target CC is quite subpar compared to true CC'ers, but beggars can't be choosers since I don't always have CC in my parties.

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You don't need 50% fort bypass with bows. I break it down in the guide, which has a standing 128% fort bypass with no effort with an additional 25% for red/purple named creatures. And how do you not have CC in your party? Every single melee DPS has Dire Charge.

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For Wis I'd be running GM ocean stance for ki regen, whereas the air stance does nothing for an archer at the moment. I'm hoping they eventually add doubleshot to air stance :P

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Build however you want, but you're gimping your damage not being in Fire stance for the crit multiplier.

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Originally Posted by johngalt317

For Wis I'd be running GM ocean stance for ki regen,

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Was that to recharge 10,000 stars?

That's not a consideration for bow users anymore.

If not please ignore! :)

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Originally Posted by Carpone

which has a standing 128% fort bypass with no effort with an additional 25% for red/purple named creatures.

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Shouldn't count destruction as part of standing fort bypass. It has a 3 sec internal CD for you, so if only you where running it would take 45 sec to get max stacks. Even in a group of 6 it would take 9 seconds, both of which are too long of a fight for a trash mob.

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Originally Posted by Yamani

Shouldn't count destruction as part of standing fort bypass. It has a 3 sec internal CD for you, so if only you where running it would take 45 sec to get max stacks. Even in a group of 6 it would take 9 seconds, both of which are too long of a fight for a trash mob.

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Fair enough. So it's "only" 113% fort bypass which is still plenty for trash mobs. Against red/purple named where it can matter, it doesn't factor in sources from other builds in the group/raid like Assassin's Trick, Cracking Attack, etc.

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Originally Posted by Carpone

Updated the guide to provide clarity around favored enemy choices. Thanks to those who reached out via DMs. Speaking of which, if you sent me a Discord friend invite to discuss, please resend. While on a conference call, I was distracted and ended up hitting "Ignore" instead of "Accept" to several requests. Oops.


No. The build is based on Lamannia U49 Preview 3. Nothing has changed between that and live.


You don't need 50% fort bypass with bows. I break it down in the guide, which has a standing 128% fort bypass with no effort with an additional 25% for red/purple named creatures. And how do you not have CC in your party? Every single melee DPS has Dire Charge.


Build however you want, but you're gimping your damage not being in Fire stance for the crit multiplier.

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Cool thanks for the suggestions... I guess I'll try a pure dex based build, w/ swapped wis for the battle dance.

Thanks!

Thanks to Beni for the Discord feedback. Swapped to the Belt of Sure Strikes which nets +8 Quality Accuracy, and allows swapping out +32 Sheltering aug for +20 Vitality (or whatever aug of your choice).

Curious as to your view on the (to me) nerfs to bow/dex Rangers in U49.
I epic reincarnated 8 days ago; rerunning the same quests with the same gear/epic destiny etc.
Lots of little Manyshot/3x arrows do not make up for the machine gun Manyshot of before. Nerfs of Furyshotting don't help either.
Even the "new" Manyshot doesn't seem impressive - even with the higher base doubleshot/ranged power, I am killing things visibly slower than before.
Ranged alacrity before was 20% (SOTR + Epic Quiver of Alacrity), now it is 15% so shooting slower isn't my imagination.
Also - before Manyshot could be combined with Sniper, Aimed, Head shots. No more.

Did you consider twisting in haste boost, since the new bow animations are supposed to be uncapped?

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Originally Posted by IlIllI

Curious as to your view on the (to me) nerfs to bow/dex Rangers in U49.

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Pre U49, bows were godlike for 16.6% of the time but you piked for 83.3% of the time. Doesn't matter what I think about U49 changes. It's the reality we live in. This build is meant as a reference post for people that need to run ranged. This is the best possible version. Melee still eclipses ranged by a wide margin, so if you're looking for top DPS in the game run an INT-based Halfling 20 Rogue Assassin.

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Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

Did you consider twisting in haste boost, since the new bow animations are supposed to be uncapped?

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The build has Haste Boost from VKF.

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Originally Posted by Carpone

The build has Haste Boost from VKF.

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Don't know how I missed that, but I'm going to blame being distracted by work.

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Originally Posted by Carpone

Pre U49, bows were godlike for 16.6% of the time but you piked for 83.3% of the time. Doesn't matter what I think about U49 changes. It's the reality we live in. This build is meant as a reference post for people that need to run ranged. This is the best possible version. Melee still eclipses ranged by a wide margin, so if you're looking for top DPS in the game run an INT-based Halfling 20 Rogue Assassin.


The build has Haste Boost from VKF.

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By your statement above - the godlike portion is gone, leaving 100% piking based upon the termination of burst dps capabilities.

And given this - does a different, specialty dc focused build make more sense?

For example: while Executioner's Shot only procs 35% of the time, it is - as far as I know - the only ranged assassinate around. Assassinate is tough to get much over 100 DC, but less clear how beneficial this is from an endgame perspective. If a 100-ish DC could take down high reaper trash mobs - which take significant time even for the max dps melee types to whale away on - then there is still value for being a bow ranger in a raid group.

Ditto say a very high wis ranger.

From my view - rangers were eggshells with hammers before.
After the new bow changes, they are eggshells with paperweights.

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Originally Posted by IlIllI

And given this - does a different, specialty dc focused build make more sense?

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DPS solves all problems.

Executioner's Shot took a huge hit with the non-dmg proc rate reduction with the doubleshot changes.

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Originally Posted by IlIllI

For example: while Executioner's Shot only procs 35% of the time, it is - as far as I know - the only ranged assassinate around. Assassinate is tough to get much over 100 DC, but less clear how beneficial this is from an endgame perspective. If a 100-ish DC could take down high reaper trash mobs - which take significant time even for the max dps melee types to whale away on - then there is still value for being a bow ranger in a raid group.

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The question of what's best for the build aside, you can certainly get an assassinate DC higher than 100ish. I've ran multiple lives with ~125 assassinate DCs, and that's not maxed.

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Originally Posted by Epicsoul

The question of what's best for the build aside, you can certainly get an assassinate DC higher than 100ish. I've ran multiple lives with ~125 assassinate DCs, and that's not maxed.

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125 as a Ranger?
Or 125 with the Assassin adds?

What I was referring to was options for bow/dex rangers now that burst capability is seriously nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Carpone

DPS solves all problems.

Executioner's Shot took a huge hit with the non-dmg proc rate reduction with the doubleshot changes.

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The problem with that statement is: why bother playing a ranged when DPS for melee is simply fundamentally higher?

If a melee can do better crowd control, can hit harder, has more hps, has greater AC/PRR and can even heal just fine - why again bother playing a ranged?

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Originally Posted by IlIllI

The problem with that statement is: why bother playing a ranged when DPS for melee is simply fundamentally higher?

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If you want the most optimal DPS in the game, play melee. They outpace ranged by a wide margin.

There are times in the game where you want or need to play ranged. PN, MA and LOB are great examples. This guide is a reference build for that. Also, many players are going to explore playing around with bows since they've been refreshed. There's a ton of misinformation out there (WIS-based, monk splash, acid arrows, fort bypass builds, etc), or players don't know how to do the math to determine "what's optimal DPS for a bow?" Gear tetris is also a royal pain in the ass. This guide makes it easy for players to make the right choice.

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Originally Posted by IlIllI

...Executioner's Shot only procs 35% of the time, it is - as far as I know - the only ranged assassinate around.

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Coup de Grace?
Death from Above?

Excellent write-up, which is not surprising, given the author.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to research and share your findings and opinions.
Cheers,
DD

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Originally Posted by cru121

Coup de Grace?
Death from Above?

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Thanks - Coup de Grace doesn't look like it would work much given the straight Forti save.

Death from Above definitely qualifies as a legit ranged Assassinate.

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Originally Posted by Carpone

If you want the most optimal DPS in the game, play melee. They outpace ranged by a wide margin.

There are times in the game where you want or need to play ranged. PN, MA and LOB are great examples. This guide is a reference build for that. Also, many players are going to explore playing around with bows since they've been refreshed. There's a ton of misinformation out there (WIS-based, monk splash, acid arrows, fort bypass builds, etc), or players don't know how to do the math to determine "what's optimal DPS for a bow?" Gear tetris is also a royal pain in the ass. This guide makes it easy for players to make the right choice.

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Fair enough. To be clear: thank you for the writeup, it is interesting and beneficial.

I just don't see any point in playing a ranged Ranger any more with these latest "improvements". As I've noted before: what really irritates me is that DDO wasn't over-run with bow/dex or bow/int ranged of any type much less full 20 level Rangers because the class/capability was OP.

While I've only been on DDO for 9 months now - all as a bow/dex Ranger - I have started doing raids. The raid demographics also support what I say above: I have seen a total of 1 other ranger, once in the 20 or so L30+ raids I have participated in. So excluding myself, that's 1 out of 220 slots. About half are basically pickup, the other half are guild raid groups. This lack of presence would seem to me that rangers just aren't any type of useful end game as it was.

Furthermore, the optimized setup you have created requires a major cash and time investment in order to get named and raid items from both Sharn and Feywild, as well as paid for enhancement trees not to mention massive reaper points.

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Originally Posted by IlIllI

If a melee can do better crowd control, can hit harder, has more hps, has greater AC/PRR and can even heal just fine - why again bother playing a ranged?

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Maybe wait for Horizon Walker before seeking an answer your question? It might just get answered.

Instead of going into Vistani for haste, why not just twist it over from LD? Then you can do elemental damage from Arcane Archer and also have haste.

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Originally Posted by Arkat

Maybe wait for Horizon Walker before seeking an answer your question? It might just get answered.

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I definitely hope there's CC in the cards. I'm enjoying the new bow stuff (Hunt's End! Many Shot! Die!) but the lack of CC and the way nerve venom basically sucks completely now is problematic.

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Originally Posted by Montegue

I definitely hope there's CC in the cards. I'm enjoying the new bow stuff (Hunt's End! Many Shot! Die!) but the lack of CC and the way nerve venom basically sucks completely now is problematic.

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I hear you on the result of the Doubleshot nerf on Nerve Venom. Ranged needs to get back some CC.

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Originally Posted by Arkat

I hear you on the result of the Doubleshot nerf on Nerve Venom. Ranged needs to get back some CC.

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Pretty sure the devs are not worried about that. The ED revamp is on the way and things will change.

In your accuracy breakdown, you mention the 6% from racial at the end but forgot Precision 5%.

In DR bypasses, does Harbinger of Chaos not bypass chaos dr? It does 1d20 bane damage against all targets and an additional 2d20 chaos damage to lawful targets, and afaik all chaos DR enemies are also lawful (marut, codex, not sure if anything else).

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Originally Posted by Montegue

Instead of going into Vistani for haste, why not just twist it over from LD? Then you can do elemental damage from Arcane Archer and also have haste.

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Because math.

Dropping VKF for T4 AA means loss of: 10% dshot, 2 favored enemy damage, Haste Boost, Deflect Arrows and 1 RP. Let's assume you're dropping Meld Into Shadows (instead of Whirling Wrists) in order to twist Haste Boost, even though that's a really poor idea in reaper. Gearing for spellpower means dropping Thorn Boots and Belt of Sure Strikes for Stone Shoes and Burnscar Sash, which is a loss of 5 damage and 10 crit damage.

Acid spellpower:
202 Item
107 Insightful item
053 Quality item
020 Elemental Arrows IV
010 Soul Magic
030 Implement bonus
004 Remnant tome
004 Morale - Greater Heroism
025 Potion of Spellpower
050 Artifact - Touch of Power (replaces +4 CON)
019 Spellcraft augment (replaces +20 Vitality)
011 Spellcraft ranks
005 Spellcraft tome
031 Spellcraft INT bonus
010 Spellcraft epic level skill bonus
060 USP epic levels
015 Ship buff acid spellpower
015 Deep Gnome past life x3
002 Completionist
002 Racial Completionist
001 Tiefling racial past life
001 Dragonborn racial past life
001 Harper core 1
006 USP Reaper’s Arcana I
006 USP Reaper’s Arcana II
006 USP Reaper’s Arcana III
012 USP Reaper’s Arcana IV
012 USP Reaper’s Arcana V
002 USP Reaper’s Arcanum V
004 USP Reaper’s Arcanum VI
TBD USP Mythic/Reaper Gear
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726 acid spell power
045 Profane Reaper boost

I may have missed some minor sources, but that's a pretty reasonable spell power.

Let's assume we're hitting a mob on a dice roll of 1 or 2 since we've got extremely high attack and +11% to hit.

4d8 acid arrow damage * (1 + 7.26 spellpower) = 148.68 acid damage per hit.

5 damage from Thorn Boots: 5 damage * (1 + 3.65 ranged power) = 23.25. On a 17-18, that's 232.5 dmg and 19-20 it's 372 damage. 37.5 dmg on average for all hits.

10 seeker from the Belt of Sure Strikes: It's an average of 14.44 dmg per hit.

10% doubleshot: 227.87 damage * (1 + 3.65 ranged power) * (.10 doubleshot) = 105.95 dmg. Without even calculating the damage loss from crits, sneak attack damage, and favored enemy damage with reduced doubleshot, elemental arrow damage already falls behind. And that assumes elemental arrow lands fully on every creature without immunity or resistances.

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Originally Posted by Tsutti

In your accuracy breakdown, you mention the 6% from racial at the end but forgot Precision 5%.

In DR bypasses, does Harbinger of Chaos not bypass chaos dr? It does 1d20 bane damage against all targets and an additional 2d20 chaos damage to lawful targets, and afaik all chaos DR enemies are also lawful (marut, codex, not sure if anything else).

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Thank you, the accuracy has been updated.

The chaotic damage doesn't break lawful DR. It would be neat if it did.

Your arcane archer damage numbers are off.

If you do take up to T4 in AA you should be getting 7d8 acid damage (You gain 2 damage dice when you don't take a new element or 1 damage dice if you take an additional element). If you went T5 DWS and capstone AA you gain 15% more doubleshot than what you gain from VKF - 20% from capstone and 5% from the shadow stance.

You lose some RP and sneak damage, but the first is a much larger number than your DS number and the latter isn't that significant compared to your base damage and would get a boost from the additional DS. You also pick up some pretty decent elemental damage if you can get that amount of spell power.

Cheers,

Synth

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Originally Posted by Carpone

045 Profane Reaper boost

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Are you REALLY going to use Reaper's Power and not Reaper's Strike?
Wondering if adding that to the total is even worth mentioning.

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Originally Posted by Xgya

Are you REALLY going to use Reaper's Power and not Reaper's Strike?
Wondering if adding that to the total is even worth mentioning.

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You're right, it's not worth using over Reaper's Strike. I listed it as part of the exercise for completeness. It wasn't included in the calculations.

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Originally Posted by Synthetic

Your arcane archer damage numbers are off.

If you do take up to T4 in AA you should be getting 7d8 acid damage (You gain 2 damage dice when you don't take a new element or 1 damage dice if you take an additional element).

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Ah, thank you. Let's revisit the numbers then:

7d8 acid arrow * (1 + 7.26 spellpower) = 260.19 per hit

With 10% less doubleshot, crits contribute 153.05 damage less per hit:
Crits: (((227.87 base dmg * 5 crit multi * 2 crit range) * (1 + 3.65 RP) * .10 dshot) + ((227.87 * 8 crit multi * 2 crit range) * (1 + 3.65 RP) * .10 dshot)) / 18

With 10% less doubleshot, sneak attacks contribute 77.42 less per hit:
SA: (111 SA dmg * (1 + 3.65 RP) * (1.5 SA scaling) * .10 dshot)

The total damage loss dropping 10% dshot is 105.5 base dmg + 153.05 crit dmg + 77.42 SA dmg = 335.97.

So you are losing 75.78 dmg per hit on average choosing AA over VKF. That doesn't include the 2 less FE dmg, or 1 less RP.

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If you went T5 DWS and capstone AA you gain 15% more doubleshot than what you gain from VKF - 20% from capstone and 5% from the shadow stance. You lose some RP and sneak damage, but the first is a much larger number than your DS number and the latter isn't that significant compared to your base damage and would get a boost from the additional DS.

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Going DWS T5 (38 AP) and AA Capstone (41 AP) leaves you no AP for Harper, which is a loss of 13 insightful damage, 8 FE damage (T5 DWS, DWS core 5, Falconry and VKF), 10.5 sneak attack damage, +1 hit/dmg, 23 RP, and Haste Boost. You also lose 6% doubleshot from the wood elf tree because you only have 17 AP left on racial enhancements. So you're netting 9% doubleshot, not 15%. You also lose Deflect Arrows which is your primary defense against ranged mobs.

Average hit with your proposed enhancements is 1030.38:
(213.87 base dmg * (1 + 3.42 RP) * (1.09 doubleshot))

Average hit with the enhancement split in the guide is 1132.8:
(227.87 base dmg * (1 + 3.65 RP)) + (10.5 sneak attack dmg * (1 + 3.65 RP) * 1.5 SA dmg scaling)

The divide only grows further when you factor in crit damage, the loss of 8 FE damage and loss of Haste Boost.

Thanks for posting much an in depth guide as well as a answering possible questions.
You rock man!

(Combat): You sneak attack Training Dummy for 793,129 points of pierce damage.

Got this with my rogue AA Falc (build in sig) Its also max bow dps, but Im not sure how it compares to yours

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Originally Posted by IlmerSilverhilt

(Combat): You sneak attack Training Dummy for 793,129 points of pierce damage.

Got this with my rogue AA Falc (build in sig) Its also max bow dps, but Im not sure how it compares to yours

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Highlight reels are meaningless. Do the work and show the math behind the build.

What kind of highlight reel numbers do you see with your build Carpone?

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Originally Posted by Carpone

Some good analysis

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You could pickup 3% DS from Wood elf since you would put 38 ap into DWS and 41 AA. That leaves you 15 racial ap to get to tier4 and 1 ap for through the branches. For DWS I'd drop Head shot, Leg shot and core5/6 to reach the 38 ap put a point into favored defense I guess. So, you can recover 2 FE damage and one FE. AA gets 2 more dex then your layout which makes up for the 1 damage from racial.

If you drop Scion of the ethereal for Scion of Earth you get 21 more acid damage and 40 spell power while losing 5RP and 21 sneak damage. Using the standing numbers this layout pulls slightly ahead, but realistically adding in a few RP buffs/haste boost will have your currently layout pull ahead. Also, fury is all about base damage.

The one scenario this alternate AA layout seems to have a real advantage is if you're using IPS. The additional damage from Acid isn't affected by the 20% reduction from what I've read, and the loss of Archers Focus RP doesn't matter as much. It's about 6% more damage per hit on paper.

Thank you to Viamel for the revised gearset:

+5 Quality Seeker
+4 Profane Accuracy/Deadly
-17 Insightful Accuracy
-2 DEX

I'm including both gearsets in the guide for now. The original gearset provides +14 accuracy, which matters in a handful of circumstances with high AC raid bosses like LOB.

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Originally Posted by Tsutti

I take it this statement is assuming an 11/6/3 thrower instead of pure ranger? You say thrower > bow, and ranger > split vs favored enemies, why still run one or the other instead of combining them into pure ranger dagger thrower?

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11/6/3 thrower is 448 dmg (about 5% more) per hit on average than a pure ranger bow. The disparity is *much* greater when you factor in burst damage from Multitude of Missiles. It would be reasonable for Horizon Walker to at least make the two ranged styles equivalent. I wouldn't be surprised to see HW end up being a clone of VKF, with just a few modest changes to integrate the PnP flavor and abilities.

The thing about a pure bow ranger is that you can also incorporate a throwing dagger into the build just for Multitude of Missiles burst. Swapping out Weapon Focus: Ranged and Sneak of Shadows for STWE and MoM, you can easily rearrange the VKF tree to pick up 3 ranks of Knife Fighting, Rapid Throw, and Deadly Blades for the cost of 1 RP from Harper. It won't keep up with a dedicated thrower since you don't have IC: Thrown. You can use the new Feywild throwing dagger for the Keen, but it lacks Soul Tear that Wide Open Sky has.

Any suggestions for heroic leveling gear and AP progression?

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Originally Posted by Rednorva

Any suggestions for heroic leveling gear and AP progression?

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Gear: Max DEX and doubleshot. Ravenloft bow at 10. Wallwatch 3pc at 15. Have enough HP to not get one-shot.

AP: Leave Falconry and Harper last. Get T5 DWS at level 12.

Use your best judgement.

The dilemma I have with bows now is that to be great (for bows) dps, you need to rely on things like sneak attack damage and making things vulnerable to sneak attack vs using the AA tree which is significantly less dps, but you can generate crowd control. For me, I am still going wisdom based AA paralyze because I typically run solo, run reapers, and want an easier time even if it takes a little longer. Plus, when I do run in a group (also typically reaper), most folks like when I freeze everything and melees take far less damage.

Post u49, it is looking like they are clearing the path for us to drop $ on Horizon Walker when that comes out so that you can feel good about bow dps. But I really did not like what I saw in the early preview. SSG continues to push bows to a single target dps style which, from my experience and what others tell me in game, is not wanted. But SSG will forge ahead because why would they listen to what customers want?

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Originally Posted by barecm

Post u49, it is looking like they are clearing the path for us to drop $ on Horizon Walker when that comes out so that you can feel good about bow dps. But I really did not like what I saw in the early preview. SSG continues to push bows to a single target dps style which, from my experience and what others tell me in game, is not wanted. But SSG will forge ahead because why would they listen to what customers want?

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Because we're not customers, we're users. There is a really big difference. We're not buying a copy of a product, we're buying in to play more of the content and to get several QoL things. We're not a constant income that has to be pleased, we're an income that comes and goes and bring value whenever SGG brings something to the table we're willing to spend actual $ on, instead a farmable ingame-currency. That's how the online-market have developed and this is why "customer is king" is a really unapporpriate attitude to have, because we're not customers. This is a free-to-play MMORPG where you're free-to-pay.



I've played with my currently Inquisitive after spending some time before and after the bow pass with my archer toon. Inquis is certainly not my cup of tea, but after playing my archer for so long, I couldn't help but feeling real disappointment, because while I do think that bows stand better overall (though there has been some colleteral damage), it's plain as day that they can't compare with inquisitives in DPS and consistency.
If bows were a single-target concentrated playstyle, that would play around and with critical hits, I'd be totally fine with. Let other ranged styles have their own things, and while I always imagined the crossbow to be the more accurate weapon, I'd be just happy to have different flavors of ranged combat. But as long as I can force-brute myself easier against single enemies as Inquis with IPS on than with bows on a ranger with AF active, I can't even say that bows are single-target ranged DPS.
Bows have several problems. They're not treated like weapons that fills your secondary hand (strangely enough, bucklers in the P&P are meant to be fully bow compatible, but aren't equippable in DDO), they lack the amount of hits -> damage of other weapons, their dedicated trees don't support a unique identity (DWS is fully compatible with x-bows and thrown weapons as well, and AA is great at low/mid heroics, then fall flat fast and doesn't strengthen bows directly, just offering more options; it's also rather expensive), and I can't think of anything unique to them other than AA's DR bypasses, that's worth the trouble.
Even the elemental imbuement aren't that great. While Inquis Law on your Side starts out smaller, it stacks with Ranged Power (what you really want), is hardly resisted (just lowered dice when facing lawful stuff) and stack up to 12-14d8s vs. 9d8s.

Overall, I think the feats were a nice first step, but at least AA should have given an additional revamp. Maybe I write a thread about this singular tree these days...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pandjed

Because we're not customers, we're users. There is a really big difference. We're not buying a copy of a product, we're buying in to play more of the content and to get several QoL things. We're not a constant income that has to be pleased, we're an income that comes and goes and bring value whenever SGG brings something to the table we're willing to spend actual $ on, instead a farmable ingame-currency. That's how the online-market have developed and this is why "customer is king" is a really unapporpriate attitude to have, because we're not customers. This is a free-to-play MMORPG where you're free-to-pay.

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Customer and user is just a matter of semantics. You are still spending money either as a VIP or if you buy from the store as a free to play; or both. You are still supporting future development along with current salaries and expenses for SSG. We are customers, users, and consumers... or whatever else name you want to give to someone who spends money. We are the lifeblood that keeps the lights on at SSG. If they continue to ignore us and try to squeeze us more for money, more and more, people will leave. I don't care what title you give it and how you think recurring revenue differs from spot purchases, but it all amounts to the same thing. Our money supports their jobs and they seem to think it is ok to ignore the folks paying for their livelihood.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

We are the lifeblood that keeps the lights on at SSG. If they continue to ignore us and try to squeeze us more for money, more and more, people will leave. I don't care what title you give it and how you think recurring revenue differs from spot purchases, but it all amounts to the same thing. Our money supports their jobs and they seem to think it is ok to ignore the folks paying for their livelihood.

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So you speak for all players on DDO? By whose power? Did you speak with the majority? Or could it be, that the silent masses more than encourages the way SGG does business? That each expansion gives them more revenues and that everything else they work on may be in their good faith to actually improve the longivity and longterm balance of the game (be it misled or not)?

Seriously, go ahead. Tell all people on the forums, on the twitter, in the discord, all the servers, and elsewhere to not spend money on Saltmarch for at least a week. If you're right, and SGG doesn't do what is best for their income and that their believe what's right for the game is wrong, then you should have it easy to convince everyone. I mean, if it's so obviously that what SGG is doing is bad for the game, and everyone knows it, it should only take a little push. If SGG sees how their income is stagnating and how you have been the driving force behind it, then they will listen, because suddenly cheap words spoken by anyone had consequences.

If however, the majority ignores you and still buy Saltmarch immediately, it shows that SGG seems to make enough right decisions for their user-base to pay their rents and their food. Then it shows, that this was just than one opinion, that needs to contest with every other opinion like everyone's else.

Btw, SGG even given any credence to the forums is a big plus for them, as it sets them above about every AAA company in existence. Often enough, users have no say in how a game developes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pandjed

So you speak for all players on DDO? By whose power? Did you speak with the majority? Or could it be, that the silent masses more than encourages the way SGG does business? That each expansion gives them more revenues and that everything else they work on may be in their good faith to actually improve the longivity and longterm balance of the game (be it misled or not)?

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This is a stupid and disingenuous argument. He's making a prediction, not stating a universal position. There will still be some people playing up to the day they shut down the servers because DDO is no longer economically viable, but they don't need "some people" they need a majority of the current income stream to continue, or they need to develop new income streams. This nickel-and-diming VIPs for content packs by calling them mini-expansions and the way they have used classes and trees to push sales (previously be releasing them overpowered and nerfing them down when the next is ready to go live; and now to all rational appearances by laying down the nerfs first and selling back the power afterwards) is going to drive people away. I don't have to speak for all players, because I'm not making anyone do it. I'm seeing a clear trend and extrapolating into the future.

If you've got analysis about bows to share, then by all means share it. Otherwise take your off-topic bickering elsewhere. It doesn't serve this thread at all.

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Originally Posted by Carpone

If you've got analysis about bows to share, then by all means share it. Otherwise take your off-topic bickering elsewhere. It doesn't serve this thread at all.

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Hey Ying, what's the current gear setup for your and Viamel's build?

I think the version I have is outdated.

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carpone

Gear: Max DEX and doubleshot. Ravenloft bow at 10. Wallwatch 3pc at 15. Have enough HP to not get one-shot.

AP: Leave Falconry and Harper last. Get T5 DWS at level 12.

Use your best judgement.

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On the topic of heroic leveling and gear, would race matter as much in heroic levels as it would in epics?
How about the Completionist feat, what would be an adequate replacement if it's not available?

For heroic gear, is there anything in particular from Feywild to keep an eye out for, or do the lower levels go too fast for it to matter?
What about the Silent Avenger 3pc set from Ravenloft at level 10, which would grant another SA die and an artifact bonus to doubleshot?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arkat

what's the current gear setup

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The guide is up to date.

I noticed that there is no Improved Deception on the fear set. It is not necessary?

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Originally Posted by sacredguyver

On the topic of heroic leveling and gear

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If you're doing racial past lives, I wouldn't recommend bows. There are far more efficient builds, like fire sorcerer.

My guide isn't optimized for leveling. It's impossible to do a satisfactory job of leveling advice without adding another 15 pages to the guide, and I'm just not interested in that. The majority of my playtime is focused on R10s at level cap, so optimizing for that is where my interests lie.

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Originally Posted by tpbtoc

I noticed that there is no Improved Deception on the fear set. It is not necessary?

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U49 decimated Improved Deception with the reduced non-dmg proc changes.

If there was ever a soul augment for Improved Deception, I'd include it in the gearset. But it's not worth building around.

Carpone,

What are you using for iconic PL active ability toggle? Playing ranged makes the lack of ranged type stats from the active iconic PL abilities evident. I am using Shadar-Kai which I guess is another layer of defensive chance, but I only pick that because it’s better than nothing. I always appreciated the choices as a tempest ranger in the past with both doublestrike and hit and damage, but never really payed attention to the fact that they are all melee only. I guess this isn’t a huge issue, but all we have is power creep right now so I’m fixated. I posted elsewhere on the possibility to just add ranged to the existing melee only stats, but this isn’t really the thread for that.

Also, do you feel like you need more action boosts on this build? I am switching between stay frosty and extra action boosts from LD as I use haste more than RP boost in general but that’s because Attacks feel slow without it. This is compounded by the weapon and target switching causing some pauses in actions.

Targeting: I changed my targeting to ‘target nearest’ while ranging which seems to work better than target next as it would target something around a corner or through a door (like in shroud flag quests). But while it seems better I feel like I still have room for improvement when I see other archers occasionally having a large margin of kill count differences. It also seems that those characters are shiradi 99% of the time. Is that just the nature of Fury vs Shiradi where Fury is more single target vs Shiradi being more median damage hits without the highs and lows of Fury? The kill count isn’t really important but I am using it as a tool to try and measure my targeting effectiveness and attack speed effectiveness to improve overall DPS effectiveness.

I would like to see an elaborated argument towards Harbinger of Chaos vs Embodiment of Law. Yes there's 0.5 damage per hit difference, but really?

There seems to be roughly equal number of both Lawful and Chaotic bosses out there, but afaik the only raid where DPS can really make or break the raid is THTH, and the boss there is Chaotic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magaiti

I would like to see an elaborated argument towards Harbinger of Chaos vs Embodiment of Law. Yes there's 0.5 damage per hit difference, but really?

There seems to be roughly equal number of both Lawful and Chaotic bosses out there, but afaik the only raid where DPS can really make or break the raid is THTH, and the boss there is Chaotic.

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The preponderance of Devils that can be found in DDO quests and raids (THTH and DandD, notwithstanding) would have me leaning toward Harbinger of Chaos, too.

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Originally Posted by Arkat

The preponderance of Devils that can be found in DDO quests and raids (THTH and DandD, notwithstanding) would have me leaning toward Harbinger of Chaos, too.

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Nono, THTH has Chaotic Evil Forgewraith Titan, which takes additional damage from Embodiment of Law, not Chaos.

Dryad and Demigod has no lawful enemies afaik, and quite a few chaotic ones.

Overall through the raids :

Lawful (take additional damage from Harbinger of Chaos):
Legendary Shroud - portals, most trash mobs
Project Nemesis has some lawful devils trash, though really dangerous enemies such as bosses and Elementals are neutral
Legendary VoD - Suulomades
Defiler of the Just - most enemies are Devils

Chaotic (take additional damage from Embodiment of Law):
THTH (Forgewraith Titan)
Baba (Wisps, Baba)
Strahd (Strahd, Shadows of Hate)
Legendary Tempest Spine (Sorjek)
Fall of Truth: Truthful one and some of hit disciples are chaotic (Stormreaver is Lawful, but dracolich is of more concern)
Caught in the Web: most enemies are demons

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magaiti

Nono, THTH has Chaotic Evil Forgewraith Titan, which takes additional damage from Embodiment of Law, not Chaos.

Dryad and Demigod has no lawful enemies afaik, and quite a few chaotic ones.

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Look up the word "notwithstanding."

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Originally Posted by Arkat

Look up the word "notwithstanding."

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Ah yes, lol, my reading skills have failed me.
In the end, I believe the lvl 29 feat is a matter of personal choice

So this seems like a good thread and a good write up with a lot of useful information and I think it's probably the best single target "my job in the group is strictly to kill bosses and reapers" bow build but I'm not sure if it has all of the optimal choices. I have played exclusively bow builds for around a decade and I'm by no means saying that I am the best or know more about bow combat than anyone else but I did have some questions based on your experience. I obviously am very interested in trying out this build as I'm always learning and trying to get to the best bow build possible. I looked at your ranged power number and thought it looked decent but in the breakdown I saw that you are running in Archers Focus instead of IPS. I usually only switch to Archers Focus during boss fights, do you keep it on the whole time? Granted I do a ton of soloing and short man stuff, but I find that IPS is a net increase in damage. I solo DOJ every 3 days off timer and I think it would be really impossible to do that raid only in Archers Focus unless you're in a group. I also think it would be hard to solo that raid in anything but the Shiradi Champion. Are you mostly using Fury of the Wild for the Unbridled Fury ability? Hunts end seems like a way better ability than adrenaline overload except for when you're using Unbridled Fury. Plus in Shiradi Champ you get a lot more base ranged power. Do you find the additional con to be a big draw to Fury? Or am I missing something obvious? I don't do a lot of R10 quests so if this is mostly looking for group R10 quests then I 100% believe this is the build you want. And I want to try this build out and maybe there will be some obvious things that I'm missing when reading it that I'll realize by playing it. I'm also curious about VKF over Arcane archer. Is it mostly for the 10 doubleshot? It just seems like getting 20 extra ranged power from AA is worth a little more than 10 doubleshot especially when you factor in a few other perks of the (admittedly not great) AA tree. Again it could just be a style of play thing and I don't do a ton of R10 content but I'd love to hear your thoughts from another person who clearly loves the way of the bow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mckennaric

I'm also curious about VKF over Arcane archer. Is it mostly for the 10 doubleshot? It just seems like getting 20 extra ranged power from AA is worth a little more than 10 doubleshot

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I'm curious about this 20 extra ranged power in AA. AFAIK AA tree offers no ranged power

I use the Shadar'Kai iconic PL because there's nothing else relevant.

Use whatever L29 damage feat that makes sense for the content you're doing to maximize DPS.

I spend 80-90% of my time in Archer's Focus when doing RXP. I'm in Archer's Focus 99% of the time in raids. D+D fire beetle optional is the only time in raids I use IPS.

> Granted I do a ton of soloing and short man stuff

The guide explicitly calls out this is a group/raid build, and doesn't consider soloing. Short-man/solo is it's own thing.

> I'm also curious about VKF over Arcane archer. Is it mostly for the 10 doubleshot?

It's about math. VKF does more than AA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magaiti

I'm curious about this 20 extra ranged power in AA. AFAIK AA tree offers no ranged power

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Sorry I meant 20 doubleshot. Mystical Archer in AA gives +20 doubleshot and +4 Dex. I didn't really proofread what I wrote I was just wondering about a few of the choices. Like why VKF over AA. Is it to save on AP?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carpone

I use the Shadar'Kai iconic PL because there's nothing else relevant.

Use whatever L29 damage feat that makes sense for the content you're doing to maximize DPS.

I spend 80-90% of my time in Archer's Focus when doing RXP. I'm in Archer's Focus 99% of the time in raids. D+D fire beetle optional is the only time in raids I use IPS.

> Granted I do a ton of soloing and short man stuff

The guide explicitly calls out this is a group/raid build, and doesn't consider soloing. Short-man/solo is it's own thing.

> I'm also curious about VKF over Arcane archer. Is it mostly for the 10 doubleshot?

It's about math. VKF does more than AA.

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Thanks for the reply. I honestly just was curious about some of the choices. Like I said, I play exclusively pure ranger bow builds and have for the last decade or so, so I was just trying to see where you came up with some of your information. Idk if saying that 'it's about math' is exactly what I was looking for but I'll take your word for it that you've done out the math for it. It just didn't seem obvious at first glance since VKF gives 10 doubleshot, 9 PRR and MRR and 1 Dex while AA gives 20 doubleshot, 4-6 Dex, and 31.5 points of elemental damage. Plus damage breaking stances and several arrow attacks. Am I missing something on the VKF? Or is the 9 PRR and MRR worth losing the extra doubleshot and dex and damage? That was my question. I'm sure I'm missing something obvious but that's why i was asking. We all learn from each other so I'm just trying to make my character the best Pew Pew shooter I can. And I did read that it was specifically a group/raid build but I was just wondering because I also do raids a lot. And sometimes I solo raids. I find it easier to do DOJ in a group of course but I also can solo DOJ on my character. Adding more people to the group only makes my character better. Is the role of this toon to be a boss slayer? I agree that this build will do a lot of damage to 1 target. If you don't want to explain because you think I'm being a jerk that's OK you don't have to answer any questions. But honestly I just had some questions as a fellow bow enthusiast who has put countless hours of testing into bow builds and would love to hear your thoughts on a few things to help make my character better.

Thanks for your time!
Rich

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mckennaric

Sorry I meant 20 doubleshot. Mystical Archer in AA gives +20 doubleshot and +4 Dex. I didn't really proofread what I wrote I was just wondering about a few of the choices. Like why VKF over AA. Is it to save on AP?

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This is physical DPS build. You want big physical damage numbers, so they can be multiplied further by Adrenaline shots.
AA has nothing to contribute to physical DPS, except 20% doubleshot at capstone, which is definitely not worth 41 AP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magaiti

This is physical DPS build. You want big physical damage numbers, so they can be multiplied further by Adrenaline shots.
AA has nothing to contribute to physical DPS, except 20% doubleshot at capstone, which is definitely not worth 41 AP.

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Thanks for the response. Ok so it's mostly saving AP. I must be reading the VKF tree wrong because it seems like you get like 1 dex and 10 doubleshot from it plus a small amount of PRR and MRR which I would also think didn't qualify as particularly good for boosting the physical damage numbers for the amount of AP invested. Thank you for the response. I'll have to try out the build.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mckennaric

Thanks for the response. Ok so it's mostly saving AP. I must be reading the VKF tree wrong because it seems like you get like 1 dex and 10 doubleshot from it plus a small amount of PRR and MRR which I would also think didn't qualify as particularly good for boosting the physical damage numbers for the amount of AP invested. Thank you for the response. I'll have to try out the build.

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Taking AA capstone not only costs 41 AP, it also prevents from taking DwS capstone, which gives 20 ranged power and 3 sneak dice.

VKF also has Haste Boost which you then don't need to twist in.
This lets the build author to twist in 6% doubleshot from Shiradi instead, though it only works out if you don't run in Shiradi.

While 2 AP per 1% doubleshot doesn't sound good, there's no better way to spend these AP on physical dps. There's some ranged power in HA, but 1 rp for 1 AP is equally bad.

On Ghallanda I see very few playing bow builds so in that sense the changes in U49 didnt accomplice much.

Infact, I see only few ranged martial dps builds these days to the point that we often have to skip running LoB, MA and PN when I organise PUG raids simply because we dont any ranged martial dps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magaiti

Taking AA capstone not only costs 41 AP, it also prevents from taking DwS capstone, which gives 20 ranged power and 3 sneak dice.

VKF also has Haste Boost which you then don't need to twist in.
This lets the build author to twist in 6% doubleshot from Shiradi instead, though it only works out if you don't run in Shiradi.

While 2 AP per 1% doubleshot doesn't sound good, there's no better way to spend these AP on physical dps. There's some ranged power in HA, but 1 rp for 1 AP is equally bad.

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Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. Hopefully when they make a new bow enhancement line there will be better options than having to choose between blowing 41 points in AA or spending 2AP per 1% doubleshot. I'll do another rez and try out this new build compared to my current build. I do have a few concerns with some of the choices and am worried that running in Fury with make the damage too inconsistent to be fully effective the whole quest but this is a very interesting idea for a ranged build and hopefully it will be a fun build. What server do you play on?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mckennaric

Idk if saying that 'it's about math' is exactly what I was looking for but I'll take your word for it that you've done out the math for it.

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Perhaps you could read the guide which explicitly addresses the VKF vs AA question with actual numbers.

This is why I wrote the guide. Too many people "think" or "feel" they do more damage, because doing the math is daunting for too much of the player base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mckennaric

Thank you. This makes a lot of sense. Hopefully when they make a new bow enhancement line there will be better options than having to choose between blowing 41 points in AA or spending 2AP per 1% doubleshot. I'll do another rez and try out this new build compared to my current build. I do have a few concerns with some of the choices and am worried that running in Fury with make the damage too inconsistent to be fully effective the whole quest but this is a very interesting idea for a ranged build and hopefully it will be a fun build. What server do you play on?

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I play on Argonessen.
My guildie is using this build, and he says Shiradi is better for questing/soloing, but Fury is better for raids, where Furyshots can do a lot damage to a boss in a short period of time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carpone

Perhaps you could read the guide which explicitly addresses the VKF vs AA question with actual numbers.

This is why I wrote the guide. Too many people "think" or "feel" they do more damage, because doing the math is daunting for too much of the player base.

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Thank you. I read the guide many times over. That's why I thought it would be a good idea to ask for some clarification since the very beginning of the guide says that if there was something wrong, or if there were feedback or questions that we could ask. Unfortunately I thought that applied to asking for some simple questions. According to the guide and the math that is presented in the guide, VKF gives 10 doubleshot, 1 Dex, and 2 Favored enemy damage. AA gives (among other things) 20 doubleshot and 4 dex. Maybe my math is wrong but I do know a little bit about which number is bigger than the other number and so I was curious because 20>10 and 4>1. I was not doubting your claim that you had found the best build, I was just wondering about the build and thought I would ask some questions to see what the other benefits were, if it was an AP consideration, if there were other things to consider, or if I simply was missing something very obvious. I hope that I didn't come across as rude or as anything other than having a genuine curiosity for your build and what made it the "best DPS ranged build". Every time I tried to ask a question I was given flippant responses. I can't stress this enough, I have played this game exclusively as a bow using pure ranger for a decade, if you have the best build for it then I am 100% on board and want to play it and continue to play a bow character until the servers finally shut down. But if you don't want to explain anything and you just want to make claims that this is the best then you should really remove the part of the guide at the beginning that makes it seem like you are open to discussion. This isn't a case of me being too lazy to do the math. I do Math often for the game. I've done a lot of math for my bow user and have what I consider to be an extremely strong bow character which leads the kill counts in groups, stays alive like it's their job, and can solo legendary raids. If this build is better I'd have no issue switching. I don't feel any attachment to certain feats or races or enhancements or epic destinies. I exclusively play a pure 20th level bow ranger and have done so for over a decade, trying many different builds and combinations of feats/enhancements/gear/etc. I didn't just start the game decide to play a bow character, not read the document you made and then ask random questions. I understand people just "feeling" or "thinking" that they have figured something out without doing the work. I was kind of hoping that wasn't the case with you. Like I said early on, I think you did a lot of work and I think there are a lot of good and interesting things in your guide. I wish you a lot of luck in your DDO gaming and hope you have fun. I'm sorry if this response seems a little snarky but I'm just tired of the responses of "I'm right and there's no need to discuss why I'm right" or "um it's math" when there are things that are not clear like why 10>20. I am sorry that you took my questions to be annoying or however you took them, if you ever want to discuss bows or how to get the most out of a bow build I am always around. I hope you have a great time with the build and with DDO in general.

Rich

Quote:

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Originally Posted by magaiti

I play on Argonessen.
My guildie is using this build, and he says Shiradi is better for questing/soloing, but Fury is better for raids, where Furyshots can do a lot damage to a boss in a short period of time.

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Thank you,
I have enjoyed your thoughtful responses and they have given me some good insight into this build. You have certainly helped me a lot with some of my questions and I thank you for that. I play on Orien but if they ever end up doing a server merge I'd be happy to do some questing with you.

Rich

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Originally Posted by mckennaric

Thank you. I read the guide many times over. That's why I thought it would be a good idea to ask for some clarification since the very beginning of the guide says that if there was something wrong, or if there were feedback or questions that we could ask. Unfortunately I thought that applied to asking for some simple questions. According to the guide and the math that is presented in the guide, VKF gives 10 doubleshot, 1 Dex, and 2 Favored enemy damage. AA gives (among other things) 20 doubleshot and 4 dex. Maybe my math is wrong but I do know a little bit about which number is bigger than the other number and so I was curious because 20>10 and 4>1. I was not doubting your claim that you had found the best build, I was just wondering about the build and thought I would ask some questions to see what the other benefits were, if it was an AP consideration, if there were other things to consider, or if I simply was missing something very obvious. I hope that I didn't come across as rude or as anything other than having a genuine curiosity for your build and what made it the "best DPS ranged build". Every time I tried to ask a question I was given flippant responses. I can't stress this enough, I have played this game exclusively as a bow using pure ranger for a decade, if you have the best build for it then I am 100% on board and want to play it and continue to play a bow character until the servers finally shut down. But if you don't want to explain anything and you just want to make claims that this is the best then you should really remove the part of the guide at the beginning that makes it seem like you are open to discussion. This isn't a case of me being too lazy to do the math. I do Math often for the game. I've done a lot of math for my bow user and have what I consider to be an extremely strong bow character which leads the kill counts in groups, stays alive like it's their job, and can solo legendary raids. If this build is better I'd have no issue switching. I don't feel any attachment to certain feats or races or enhancements or epic destinies. I exclusively play a pure 20th level bow ranger and have done so for over a decade, trying many different builds and combinations of feats/enhancements/gear/etc. I didn't just start the game decide to play a bow character, not read the document you made and then ask random questions. I understand people just "feeling" or "thinking" that they have figured something out without doing the work. I was kind of hoping that wasn't the case with you. Like I said early on, I think you did a lot of work and I think there are a lot of good and interesting things in your guide. I wish you a lot of luck in your DDO gaming and hope you have fun. I'm sorry if this response seems a little snarky but I'm just tired of the responses of "I'm right and there's no need to discuss why I'm right" or "um it's math" when there are things that are not clear like why 10>20. I am sorry that you took my questions to be annoying or however you took them, if you ever want to discuss bows or how to get the most out of a bow build I am always around. I hope you have a great time with the build and with DDO in general.

Rich

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Soloing legendary raids is impressive. Be interested to see what you consider the principal differences are between your current build and this guide.

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Originally Posted by mckennaric

According to the guide and the math that is presented in the guide, VKF gives 10 doubleshot, 1 Dex, and 2 Favored enemy damage. AA gives (among other things) 20 doubleshot and 4 dex. Maybe my math is wrong but I do know a little bit about which number is bigger than the other number

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What you seem to have missed is the number 43. As in the number of AP spent in DWS. AA doesn't give 4 dex and 20 doubleshot for 20AP, it requires you to take AP out of DWS as well, losing you 4 Dex, 3 sneak dice, 20 range power, and the de-limiter allowing your sneak dice apply at any range (within obvious SA limitations)

Maybe not the place for this, but looking to u50 item changes it appears to me that Chaos bow from KT will pull ahead of Aerania. Aerania loses its keen and they have the same base damage and Chaos bow has fetters. I failed to test that on u50 preview, anyone else have the chance?

I haven’t been watching some lam threads. Where does it say Aerania is losing its keen?

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Originally Posted by Vorachtin

Chaos bow from KT will pull ahead of Aerania.

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I always thought it was ahead already? /shrug

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Originally Posted by achaius

I haven’t been watching some lam threads. Where does it say Aerania is losing its keen?

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I think keen is being changed to no longer give +W and instead stuns? on a natural 20?

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Originally Posted by Mindos

I always thought it was ahead already? /shrug

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No the Keen makes DnD bow surpass KT bow by a decent margin.

With the change to keen i think KT bow will pull ahead. just didn't test it and wondered if anyone else had.

I went back and looked at the u50 notes and read about the keen after you brought it up.

Going with the chaosbow will require chaotic alignment too right? Are any of the abilities or gear in this setup dependent on lawful good alignment?

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Originally Posted by achaius

I went back and looked at the u50 notes and read about the keen after you brought it up.

Going with the chaosbow will require chaotic alignment too right? Are any of the abilities or gear in this setup dependent on lawful good alignment?

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Not require but I think it will give you a negative level. I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by achaius

Going with the chaosbow will require chaotic alignment too right?

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It's not a hard requirement but equipping an Anarchic weapon like Chaosbow gives a negative level to Lawful characters; likewise if Chaotic characters equip an Axiomatic weapon.

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Originally Posted by achaius

Going with the chaosbow will require chaotic alignment too right?

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No. Choose Neutral. There's no reason to choose otherwise.

Plenty of changes with U50. Yes, Chaosbow will likely be the bow of choice due to Fetters and the Keen change. DWS T5/capstone is still preferred in preview 1, but there are needed improvements coming to Horizon Walker in preview 2.

So when u50 comes out, are you gonna drop KtA for the Dex based trance?