Reaper HP Bonuses

http://imgur.com/d984BZN

There's a picture of a pure fighter sitting on a little over 12k HP with capstone boosting. Before the boost I still had around 8k HP, and would have more if I had a complete LGS set on that character. I'm all for small power creep bonuses, but the reaper trees give +10 HP per enhancement spent (+12 for tank, but going to call it +10 so that the numbers are easier so this will actually be a lowball) as well as +130 from tank cores giving around 1700 extra base HP, which will double many non-tank builds HP when all reaper bonuses are accounted for. Now personally I can live with this if it does make it onto live, but it seems like it defeats the purpose of a difficulty where enemies go from taking two hits to kill you to one hit, when enhancements then move it back to two hits.

Edit: No idea why the picture isn't working on my screen, my tags are correct and whatever. I also have a direct link: http://imgur.com/d984BZN : So that's the picture if you can't see it on forum. Note the build in the picture is a maxed out con build mostly just showing the absolute silliness of the HP bonuses, but my warlock build with 2,500 HP on live in shiradi was sitting on around 5k in reaper. Also bear in mind that it was only thanks to a current lamma glitch that I have as many reaper bonuses as it'll let me take, and presumably getting this much HP would normally require a lot of grinding (So while players will eventually be running around with 1700 HP, it'll be a gradual process)

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Originally Posted by Blastyswa

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12k? So...two shot instead of one shot?

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Originally Posted by Therrias

12k? So...two shot instead of one shot?

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You will need about 400 PRR to go with that 12K if you want to survive a certain raid boss that likes to send people flying off a mountain.

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Originally Posted by Therrias

12k? So...two shot instead of one shot?

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2 shot can be healed ... one shot can be rezzed.

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Originally Posted by Infiltraitor

You will need about 400 PRR to go with that 12K if you want to survive a certain raid boss that likes to send people flying off a mountain.

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8500 hit today on reaper 7 through 325 PRR...

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Originally Posted by Blastyswa

http://imgur.com/d984BZN

There's a picture of a pure fighter sitting on a little over 12k HP with capstone boosting. Before the boost I still had around 8k HP, and would have more if I had a complete LGS set on that character. I'm all for small power creep bonuses, but the reaper trees give +10 HP per enhancement spent (+12 for tank, but going to call it +10 so that the numbers are easier so this will actually be a lowball) as well as +130 from tank cores giving around 1700 extra base HP, which will double many non-tank builds HP when all reaper bonuses are accounted for. Now personally I can live with this if it does make it onto live, but it seems like it defeats the purpose of a difficulty where enemies go from taking two hits to kill you to one hit, when enhancements then move it back to two hits.

Edit: No idea why the picture isn't working on my screen, my tags are correct and whatever. I also have a direct link: http://imgur.com/d984BZN : So that's the picture if you can't see it on forum. Note the build in the picture is a maxed out con build mostly just showing the absolute silliness of the HP bonuses, but my warlock build with 2,500 HP on live in shiradi was sitting on around 5k in reaper. Also bear in mind that it was only thanks to a current lamma glitch that I have as many reaper bonuses as it'll let me take, and presumably getting this much HP would normally require a lot of grinding (So while players will eventually be running around with 1700 HP, it'll be a gradual process)

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So completly conned out, with 20% hp bonus from stance, more than likley 20% hp bonus from ed, and how many shroud pieces and 377 pr.... and for all that work if he steps into shroud 10 skull he will be one shot by the first orthon.... congrats this is a 10 skull tank for most things that is gonna do how much damage since hes basically gone completly defensive and probably stunted his gear to the nth dagree. Yes this makes an awsome center for a group assuming he can intim.... but Id like to see all those hp kill anything. Id also like to know how much reaper xp is involved before we've caped out every single point before we begin yelling that things need nerfed. That being said cordo has already said numbers were being discussed for adjust ment.... dont plan on it going live with that amount of hp.

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Originally Posted by Infiltraitor

You will need about 400 PRR to go with that 12K if you want to survive a certain raid boss that likes to send people flying off a mountain.

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Was at 377, and not even CLOSE to optimized (I was in medium armor without a shield) the picture was just showing the silly amount of HP. I stepped into LShroud 10 skull solo and survived two hits before the third killed me, and stepped into LTempest's Spine 10 skull and ran to the first group of drow, surviving just fine for many hits until the inability to heal killed me. I think that a more optimized build (500+ PRR) could survive incredibly well anywhere but reaper 10 LShroud with a healer, even without the 12k HP (4k-5k with 500 PRR would be fine)

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Originally Posted by Xaxx

So completly conned out, with 20% hp bonus from stance, more than likley 20% hp bonus from ed, and how many shroud pieces and 377 pr.... and for all that work if he steps into shroud 10 skull he will be one shot by the first orthon.... congrats this is a 10 skull tank for most things that is gonna do how much damage since hes basically gone completly defensive and probably stunted his gear to the nth dagree. Yes this makes an awsome center for a group assuming he can intim.... but Id like to see all those hp kill anything. Id also like to know how much reaper xp is involved before we've caped out every single point before we begin yelling that things need nerfed. That being said cordo has already said numbers were being discussed for adjust ment.... dont plan on it going live with that amount of hp.

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3 shroud pieces, and I had done a quick TR just before from my warlock build so I was using medium celestial sage armor and dual-wielding LGS caster weps. 377 PRR was WAY below the maximum achievable nowadays, especially for an all out defense focused build; intimidate skill is around 140 with item swap-ins, and I think it's basically been confirmed that a melee who ISN'T completely defensive is going to be silly terrible in max content. I had TYWA on that build (Although in a live version I would pull out from constitution and go into strength most likely for higher to hit) and with current gearing options it would be easy to fit in (As an example gearing) 5-piece slavers set (Necklace-Named Helm-Ring-Ring-Named Trinket) Mysterious Cloak, 4 piece LGS (Bracers-Goggles-Gloves-Belt), Affirmation (+150 Positive Spellpower/+50 Hamp/+70 Hamp), Epic Shield of Tireless Aid, and LTS/LHoX Heavy Armor. The build could even swap to dreadnought for non-reaper 10 questing, blitzing for high DPS (Especially if it has a dual-focus in THF and can pull out an axe instead of S&B).

With that said, I made very certain not to call for any nerfs. I said "Now personally I can live with this if it does make it onto live, but it seems like it defeats the purpose of a difficulty where enemies go from taking two hits to kill you to one hit, when enhancements then move it back to two hits." and that is what I'm still saying. It seems silly to have an extra difficulty (10 difficulties) to add challenge to the game, and simultaneously release a system to nullify that difficulty increase.

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Originally Posted by Blastyswa

3 shroud pieces, and I had done a quick TR just before from my warlock build so I was using medium celestial sage armor and dual-wielding LGS caster weps. 377 PRR was WAY below the maximum achievable nowadays, especially for an all out defense focused build; intimidate skill is around 140 with item swap-ins, and I think it's basically been confirmed that a melee who ISN'T completely defensive is going to be silly terrible in max content. I had TYWA on that build (Although in a live version I would pull out from constitution and go into strength most likely for higher to hit) and with current gearing options it would be easy to fit in (As an example gearing) 5-piece slavers set (Necklace-Named Helm-Ring-Ring-Named Trinket) Mysterious Cloak, 4 piece LGS (Bracers-Goggles-Gloves-Belt), Affirmation (+150 Positive Spellpower/+50 Hamp/+70 Hamp), Epic Shield of Tireless Aid, and LTS/LHoX Heavy Armor. The build could even swap to dreadnought for non-reaper 10 questing, blitzing for high DPS (Especially if it has a dual-focus in THF and can pull out an axe instead of S&B).

With that said, I made very certain not to call for any nerfs. I said "Now personally I can live with this if it does make it onto live, but it seems like it defeats the purpose of a difficulty where enemies go from taking two hits to kill you to one hit, when enhancements then move it back to two hits." and that is what I'm still saying. It seems silly to have an extra difficulty (10 difficulties) to add challenge to the game, and simultaneously release a system to nullify that difficulty increase.

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while what you say is true and i agree with the bottom of your statement ...

1. how do you fix it?

2. the number of quests you are talking about where this is needed is currently 3 i would think ... LTS, LHox, LShroud ... outside of that, you may not need super maxed tank with every ounce squeezed out of PRR, intim, etc ... you could suffice with 80% of those things high level reaper quests.

Let's give the players a new difficulty and the tools to overcome it.

DDO only has one dial for difficulty and that's "how hard do the mobs hit?"

They've begun experimenting again with using abilities you actually have to manually dodge, but they're so skittish about doing it because the engine wasn't really built for that.

Until they take a page from WarCrafts bosses and turn DDO into DDR, one shot or not one-shot is really all they can really do.

Personally I wish they'd stop worrying so much about the mobs and work on making the dungeons themselves interesting. The last few updates they could just call this game Hallways and Humanoids.

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Originally Posted by Atheok

8500 hit today on reaper 7 through 325 PRR...

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Ew. 10 skulls would be in the 12,000 range.

In other words, not survivable even with reaper tree. It serves no purpose except blatant power creep for the 1 skull xp farm.

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Originally Posted by Infiltraitor

Ew. 10 skulls would be in the 12,000 range.

In other words, not survivable even with reaper tree. It serves no purpose except blatant power creep for the 1 skull xp farm.

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Just wait until they add Reaper Reincarnation, and people farm out the next 36 past lives of reaper only bonuses.

You were a tank in a past life, gain 10% hp and 10% prr and 100 DR, stacks 3 times...

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Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech

Just wait until they add Reaper Reincarnation, and people farm out the next 36 past lives of reaper only bonuses.

You were a tank in a past life, gain 10% hp and 10% prr and 100 DR, stacks 3 times...

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At that time we'll have Reaper 99 skulls anyway..

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Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech

Just wait until they add Reaper Reincarnation, and people farm out the next 36 past lives of reaper only bonuses.

You were a tank in a past life, gain 10% hp and 10% prr and 100 DR, stacks 3 times...

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The level of power creep you just mentioned is sufficient to make me Uninstall. Not sure about the current Reaper Trees.

One other big issue I see with this method of adding survivability is that it really homogenizes all builds HP. For example, lets looks at two build I play quite a bit on live:

8/6/6 Fighter/Monk/Ranger Thrower Build playing in Fury of the Wild- 1600 HP

20 Paladin Tank Build playing in Unyielding Sentinel- 3000 HP

with +1700 HP from Reaper bonuses:

1st Build: 3,300 HP

2nd Build: 4,700 HP

Previously the second build had almost double the HP of the first build, which makes sense seeing as it's a tank build in Unyielding Sentinel. With full reaper bonuses on both characters the second build has about 50% more HP than the first build. The point? If every build gets +1700 HP regardless of build decisions, then the value of doing conscious sacrifices to pump HP has a relative decrease.

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Originally Posted by Blastyswa

One other big issue I see with this method of adding survivability is that it really homogenizes all builds HP. For example, lets looks at two build I play quite a bit on live:

8/6/6 Fighter/Monk/Ranger Thrower Build playing in Fury of the Wild- 1600 HP

20 Paladin Tank Build playing in Unyielding Sentinel- 3000 HP

with +1700 HP from Reaper bonuses:

1st Build: 3,300 HP

2nd Build: 4,700 HP

Previously the second build had almost double the HP of the first build, which makes sense seeing as it's a tank build in Unyielding Sentinel. With full reaper bonuses on both characters the second build has about 50% more HP than the first build. The point? If every build gets +1700 HP regardless of build decisions, then the value of doing conscious sacrifices to pump HP has a relative decrease.

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Right on the spot. That will favor ranged builds even more too. +1700 Hp are much more usefull when you don't get hit very often than when you have to go in mob attack range. Some ranged and caster builds will be really difficult to kill with that HP bump. I think this could be fixed by lowering the HP bonus to 1/10 of what is now to a more reasonable 170-200 hp and find other ways to give the builds that really need it (melees) some more hp.

No,
What they need to do is double down on hit points
The tank tree should grant +20 hp, or +30

Then even though if all maxxed out may homogenize,
Being a tank, and only having that tree will see an increase in hp

Or they could put caveats in for class,
Either way the trees are pretty nondescript
And don't really look finished

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Originally Posted by Blastyswa

One other big issue I see with this method of adding survivability is that it really homogenizes all builds HP. [...]If every build gets +1700 HP regardless of build decisions, then the value of doing conscious sacrifices to pump HP has a relative decrease.

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Happens in live very similarly with PRR.

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Originally Posted by Blastyswa

I think it's basically been confirmed that a melee who ISN'T completely defensive is going to be silly terrible in max content. .

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Well, I guess you agree with me now then? I seem to recall you saying that the level of damage taken was fine ;)

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Originally Posted by Blastyswa

One other big issue I see with this method of adding survivability is that it really homogenizes all builds HP. For example, lets looks at two build I play quite a bit on live:

8/6/6 Fighter/Monk/Ranger Thrower Build playing in Fury of the Wild- 1600 HP

20 Paladin Tank Build playing in Unyielding Sentinel- 3000 HP

with +1700 HP from Reaper bonuses:

1st Build: 3,300 HP

2nd Build: 4,700 HP

Previously the second build had almost double the HP of the first build, which makes sense seeing as it's a tank build in Unyielding Sentinel. With full reaper bonuses on both characters the second build has about 50% more HP than the first build. The point? If every build gets +1700 HP regardless of build decisions, then the value of doing conscious sacrifices to pump HP has a relative decrease.

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The Reaper tree buffs scale down with skull level? or you can get the 1700 hp for skull 1 or 2? If they give powerful buffs designed for reaper skull 10 they should scale down depending the skull lvl (for example 100% skull 10, 90% S9, .., 10% S1 or diminishing returns for higher skulls, etc)

About the hp bonuses applying equally no matter the type of build, I'm totally agree is not well designed. There should be penalties or restrictions of the reaper buffs depending the type of build ( the type of weapons they use (meele, ranged or caster)) and the main reaper tree invested, which brings another point of why can a build get all reaper trees enhancements (it shouldn't be main tank or main dps or main spell but not all trees at the same time?)
For example ranged dps builds should get at least a 50% penalty of the tank tree buffs (spell tree as well), 25% hp penalty just by being ranged. Meele builds should get something like 25% tank and spell tree penalties if spec into dps tree. ( I mean builds should get only a main reaper tree focus, then get penalties into other trees)
(Other option is just restrict the number of enhancements you can take so you can invest only into one main reaper tree and half other, having the option to respec enhancements when you change your build)

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Originally Posted by boredman

The Reaper tree buffs scale down with skull level? or you can get the 1700 hp for skull 1 or 2? If they give powerful buffs designed for reaper skull 10 they should scale down depending the skull lvl (for example 100% skull 10, 90% S9, .., 10% S1 or diminishing returns for higher skulls, etc)

About the hp bonuses applying equally no matter the type of build, I'm totally agree is not well designed. There should be penalties or restrictions of the reaper buffs depending the type of build ( the type of weapons they use (meele, ranged or caster)) and the main reaper tree invested, which brings another point of why can a build get all reaper trees enhancements (it shouldn't be main tank or main dps or main spell but not all trees at the same time?)
For example ranged dps builds should get at least a 50% penalty of the tank tree buffs (spell tree as well), 25% hp penalty just by being ranged. Melee builds should get something like 25% tank and spell tree penalties if spec into dps tree. ( I mean builds should get only a main reaper tree focus, then get penalties into other trees)
(Other option is just restrict the number of enhancements you can take so you can invest only into one main reaper tree and half other, having the option to respec enhancements when you change your build)

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Yes, I don't really understand the reasoning behind being able to take every single reaper enhancement, including core 6's and tier 5's. The vast majority of the HP isn't coming just from the tank tree (<1000 available from tank tree only) It's coming from the +10 hp for every. single. point. spent in the other trees. At the very least, if the power creep is going to be retained, I'd like for caster to change to +5/10 sp per point spent and weapons to be changed to +1 PRR or +1 AC or something, just break up the homogenization in some way.

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Originally Posted by zehnvhex

Until they take a page from WarCrafts bosses and turn DDO into DDR, one shot or not one-shot is really all they can really do.

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Wrong.

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Originally Posted by BigErkyKid

Happens in live very similarly with PRR.

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Not necessarily; PRR can still be pumped quite a bit. For example, this is the comparison between my thrower build and my tank build:
Thrower build:
38 PRR Item
20 PRR Iron Skin
18 PRR Past Lives (3x Divine 3x PDK)
17 PRR Insight Item (Legendary Devil Commander)
8 PRR Quality Item (Legendary Devil Commander)

101 PRR

While still below what I typically would want for a build, the fact that it stays at ranged so much makes this relatively acceptable (In reaper I potentially might try and fit in a little more PRR)

Tank Build:
60 PRR Heavy Armor
38 PRR Sheltering Item
30 PRR Deific Warding
30 PRR Heed no Pain
25 PRR Sacred Defense
25 PRR Harbored by Light
20 PRR Improved Combat Expertise
18 PRR Past Lives (3x Divine 3x PDK)
17 PRR Insight Item
15 PRR Legendary Shield Mastery
15 PRR Sacred Defender Cores
10 PRR Improved Shield Mastery
10 PRR Large Shield
10 PRR Epic Damage Reduction
8 PRR Quality Item
331 PRR

This doesn't include defense boost, and the build doesn't have rem tomes and I didn't bother logging in to check what mythic bonuses I have (I think my actual PRR is around 335 in game, so no huge difference).

I presume the homogenization of PRR you speak of is how every heavy armor fighter tends to have around the same PRR, every robed thrower tends to have around the same PRR, and every heavy tank tends to have around the same PRR. If you're talking about +36 maximum PRR from past lives being the homogenizing factor, then I would point you towards a fighter kensei with +85 PRR (+60 Heavy Armor, +25 Stalwart Defender) versus a robed build with at least 2 monk levels with +20 PRR (Iron Skin). If you're talking about the formula for asymptotic regression used to make each PRR point the same effective value, then I would point you towards freshmen college algebra.

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Well, I guess you agree with me now then? I seem to recall you saying that the level of damage taken was fine ;)

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We have entirely different definitions of max difficulty questing. In your posts you tend to consider anything 10 skull max difficulty questing, many quests of which I don't consider max difficulty at all (10 skull slavers, 10 skull ToEE, 10 skull Haunted Halls, 10 skull LShroud flaggers, etc.). In fact, I basically don't consider max difficulty questing to be max difficulty at all, which is my fault in my written classifications. I don't have issues with 1000 HP 100 PRR monk builds being one-shotted in 10 skull slavers, when a 2000 HP 150 PRR monk build or a 200 HP 200 PRR armored build can take more than one hit, allowing for healing. What I consider max difficulty is quests/raids that actually result in one-shots against the above provided melee builds, such as 10 skull LTS, 10 skull LHoX, 10 skull DoJ, and especially 10 skull LShroud. Again, the level of damage taken in 10 skull slavers killing the typically 1000-1300 HP 100-150 PRR builds you see survive just fine on live is completely fine to me, AS IS the level of damage in LShroud 10 skull. The difference, which I was trying to clarify, is that 10 skull slavers can be survived just fine by a decently geared decently built melee with a strong emphasis on defense (Earth Stance or LShroud/Slavers set monks blitzing, Tempests blitzing, heavy armor builds, particularly those with sacred/stalwart defense). 10 skull LShroud can be survived a little bit by a 12k HP 380 PRR melee build. I fully stand by the statement that " a melee who ISN'T completely defensive is going to be silly terrible in max content." but I reject the extension that max level content is every single quest and raid that can be played on 10 skull.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Helmet

Wrong.

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Care to expound upon that? I agree with you, but reasons are always good. For example I think that the self-healing debuff and death timer were steps in the right direction, as are adding reapers with unique debuffs and revamping the champion system. I would prefer if more power was switched from base damage to debuffs/champions, and self-healing/death timer were given additional oomph.

For examples, instead of 10k damage base (2.5k through 300 PRR) have 3k damage base and a 6 second debuff that deals 7k damage base if remove curse is not cast within that time; give it an obvious visual indicator, but cause it to remove the players ability to cast/drink/scroll/wand remove curse (Require the healer to pay attention to more than HP bars). Or have the enemy inflict a powerful poison on hit that makes the player immune to healing and the remove poison side effect of healing spells, requiring an actual cast of the remove poison spell before the player can be healed more. Or have a debuff that causes 20% of incoming damage to launch as slow moving homing missile blasts towards nearby characters, that can be stopped by hitting an obstacles (The melee gets hit, a slow moving (Slower than the player) ball moves towards the healer who has to move around and reposition himself so that the ball hits an obstacle, and in quests like Thunder Peaks (no obstacles) that obstacle might be another character who can survive the hit.

Champions could be given auras that increase the abilities of nearby monsters (Which is shown by an aural glow around affected mobs) that goes away after the champion is killed. Self-Healing could be entirely removed, and healing timers could be increased (Requires multiple heals and cycling instead of tapping heal over and over). An ability could be added in a reaper tree that causes the players outgoing damage to be reduced by 100%, but has an absolute reduction on aggro (Mobs are treated as if the sanctuary spell from P&P is casted on the player, completely ignoring them in favor of other players). This ability could be a toggle that can only be toggled in public areas, meaning you have to choose whether you're going to heal or fight before the quest (No abuse to avoid damage in quest while still attacking). Death timer could be extended to make the player immune to scrolled revives and clickies, reducing the power of everyone carrying stacks of 100 resurrection scrolls with 50+ UMD.

These are just ideas I'm throwing out off the top of my head, there's endless possibilities, some of which will actually be feasible with the game's engine.

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Originally Posted by Blastyswa

Care to expound upon that?

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Not really, there's not much point in making sense on the forums anymore.

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Originally Posted by Blastyswa

I presume the homogenization of PRR you speak of is how every heavy armor fighter tends to have around the same PRR,[...]

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PRR is HP against physical hits. The more base PRR we can have (quality, insight, sheltering, artifact, reaper trees), the more than the armor type and so on is washed out.

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If you're talking about the formula for asymptotic regression used to make each PRR point the same effective value, then I would point you towards freshmen college algebra.

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I will let this one slide because you are a friendly poster most of the time. I will just say that asymptotic regression has no meaning here, so please be careful with overly snarky comments that could very well backfire and make you look like a math nub.

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We have entirely different definitions of max difficulty questing. In your posts you tend to consider anything 10 skull max difficulty questing, many quests of which I don't consider max difficulty at all (10 skull slavers, 10 skull ToEE, 10 skull Haunted Halls, 10 skull LShroud flaggers, etc.).

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No need to put words in my mouth. I haven't identified anything as "max difficulty". The point is that outside of tanks, playing melee is a stupid option in reaper. Holding skill constant, a party of uber ranged toons can get further than a party of uber legit melees. That you can complete "easier" content says absolutely nothing about the imbalance.

But as our beloved nipple-free halfling yielding creature says:

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Not really, there's not much point in making sense on the forums anymore.

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So I am going to leave it here. See you in Ravenloft (maybe).