Please stop using an absurd number of mobs in every quest

This trend has been around a while. Each and every quest has become just a massive slaughter of mobs, every 2 steps there is an encounter with lots of mobs. At some point, killing mobs in this game has become the most boring thing to do.

I've tried the two new quests yesterday and they are no exception to this rule. The quests themselves were really nice and I liked them so props there but after killing 100 or so mobs in first few corridors, I just found myself bored to death and HAD to use invisibility because otherwise I could not have finished the quests without falling asleep. This issue is specially true at higher levels (LE and EE), where the HP of mobs is not balanced at decent levels and it takes a while to clear an encounter. Killing 300+ mobs in every quest is not fun. Killing 300+ mobs with 20k+ HP each is even less fun.

And really, kobolds again? Because you absolutely read and listened our complains about kobolds in the previous two updates. Not just that, now there are MILLIONS of kobolds that do 17k points of damage with Fire Burst.

Balance the HP mobs and rework on the number of encounters in the new quests.

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Originally Posted by Wizza

This trend has been around a while. Each and every quest has become just a massive slaughter of mobs, every 2 steps there is an encounter with lots of mobs. At some point, killing mobs in this game has become the most boring thing to do.

I've tried the two new quests yesterday and they are no exception to this rule. The quests themselves were really nice and I liked them so props there but after killing 100 or so mobs in first few corridors, I just found myself bored to death and HAD to use invisibility because otherwise I could not have finished the quests without falling asleep. This issue is specially true at higher levels (LE and EE), where the HP of mobs is not balanced at decent levels and it takes a while to clear an encounter. Killing 300+ mobs in every quest is not fun. Killing 300+ mobs with 20k+ HP each is even less fun.

And really, kobolds again? Because you absolutely read and listened our complains about kobolds in the previous two updates. Not just that, now there are MILLIONS of kobolds that do 17k points of damage with Fire Burst.

Balance the HP mobs and rework on the number of encounters in the new quests.

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Haven't played the new quests but very disappointed if its just another packmob overload. I'll not try to deny that it makes it more challenging (for me), but its becoming formulaic and very tired as an approach now. I'm also at a loss as to how it can not increase lag.

I actually stopped and quit playing the other day because of this very issue. While there are outside factors involved as well, after running through Creeping Death, I turned one too many corners to stare at one too many batches of HP-inflated critters, and just said screw it. I quit playing for several hours. Even now, I'm looking more at the game as a chore to play.

I had more fun running around Vol earlier today, despite having ran it so much I can do it asleep at this point, than running newer, less ran quests simply because since Druid's Deep or so, the dungeon design has devolved into halls full of monsters leading to rooms full of monsters, ad infinitum. It's become stale and boring, to the point that I look more forward to TRing and rerunning old favourites than seeing what new stuff is in store. Not a good thing if you want me to buy stuff once you fix the store so I can.

I was playing some Doom maps (yes, people still put out tons of mods and maps for Doom and Doom 2, even after 20+ years!). One of the things I noticed in the higher quality maps, is that even on UV, they tend to rely more on clever placement of mobs rather than overwhelming numbers. A well placed chain gunner can send even a veteran player scrambling. An Arch-Vile can be devastating.

leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeroy jeeeenkins

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Originally Posted by Rys

leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeroy jeeeenkins

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The issue mentioned in the OP is even worse when your DDO partner rushes into the a bunch of shaman kobolds. And guess who dies -_-

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Originally Posted by azrael4h

I actually stopped and quit playing the other day because of this very issue. While there are outside factors involved as well, after running through Creeping Death, I turned one too many corners to stare at one too many batches of HP-inflated critters, and just said screw it. I quit playing for several hours. Even now, I'm looking more at the game as a chore to play.

I had more fun running around Vol earlier today, despite having ran it so much I can do it asleep at this point, than running newer, less ran quests simply because since Druid's Deep or so, the dungeon design has devolved into halls full of monsters leading to rooms full of monsters, ad infinitum. It's become stale and boring, to the point that I look more forward to TRing and rerunning old favourites than seeing what new stuff is in store. Not a good thing if you want me to buy stuff once you fix the store so I can.

I was playing some Doom maps (yes, people still put out tons of mods and maps for Doom and Doom 2, even after 20+ years!). One of the things I noticed in the higher quality maps, is that even on UV, they tend to rely more on clever placement of mobs rather than overwhelming numbers. A well placed chain gunner can send even a veteran player scrambling. An Arch-Vile can be devastating.

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The quests with an impassable barrier every 3 feet that can only get through after killing all the mobs, like creeping death and the druids chain, are the worst design in the game, imo, even worse than 'protect the suicidal NPC' quests.

Combined with the new approach of saturating a quest with mobs, and yeah, its just boring and time consuming.

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Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech

The quests with an impassable barrier every 3 feet that can only get through after killing all the mobs, like creeping death and the druids chain, are the worst design in the game, imo, even worse than 'protect the suicidal NPC' quests.

Combined with the new approach of saturating a quest with mobs, and yeah, its just boring and time consuming.

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They could always have you protect a suicidal NPC while going through over-stuffed hallways full of hp-inflated mobs that you have to kill to remove barriers every 3 feet.

Artificial barriers are always bad design.

Threnal is a good chain for mob density, type, and strategy.

I agree that mob packing like they have been doing is boring. I think if we had earlier access to the quests, we could provide mob placement feedback and get things into the release.

But their super tight schedule and deadlines for releases don't allow that.

Really? I found the 2 new quests to be rather LIGHT on mobs, actually. How many people were in the group with you?

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Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde

Really? I found the 2 new quests to be rather LIGHT on mobs, actually. How many people were in the group with you?

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Two persons. And I found them heavily filled with mobs.

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Originally Posted by Wizza

The issue mentioned in the OP is even worse when your DDO partner rushes into the a bunch of shaman kobolds. And guess who dies -_-

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You?

_{(Time was up, it wasn't my fault, we almost got'em, you had to share your experience with me anyway because I was the only one brave there)}

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I think this is an issue of confusion with quest design.

What is the appropriate density of mobs?

First any discussion on density of mobs should be noted that it should be based off a standard party of 4. Running with less you should be picking up the slack and running with more, well "many hands make light work"

I do agree, after 3 corners of "Oooh Mobs" and "Oh Mobs must die to proceed" your pushing the patience buttons on many players. Personally anything repeated more than 3 times - Lather, Rinse, Repeat drives a mechanic into the ground. And I like Temple of Elemental Evil, but even I think the hallways full of Mobs standing to be activated was the wrong approach. All those rooms and so many are empty - That's where they should be and mobs in the hallway should be wandering - say walking the full length in a patrol not standing at a junction like they are waiting for an invading army.

My first suggestion is a mechanic should not - repeat should not be used more than 3 times in a single dungeon.

Next it the issue of how many HP should "annoyance" (Not a boss and not a continue point fight) have?

One problem I think is that every mob be it in Heroic or later in Epic all seem to be inflated HP sinks. This is what I think drove many players to put their DPS to 11, which then drove Mobs Damage to 12. This becomes a never ending cycle of one-ups-menship where one release Mobs get the upper hand and later the characters get the upper hand.

I like the idea that entering a dungeon there is a risk that I'm going to die, but no one likes to know they will die 8 to 20 times because of a mechanic or the fact that the Boss is simply going to one-shot them. Don't get me wrong the end boss in Legendary Shroud is one I absolutely love because of his Hellball. Something that can be mitigated but can also be a big thorn in a players side. And in a Raid that is appropriate.

I think the other issue I have is the mix. Challenge is hard to create if all the mobs fall easy prey to a single tactic. Players figure that out and exploit that. Champions helped in the upper difficulties, but more really should happen. Mix it up, much like a balanced party make-up Divine, Arcane, Heavy and light melee as well as a tactical melee. Make it so concentrating on just one of Fortitude, Will and Reflex saves wont be more than 1/3 effective..

I'm not in favor of 4 on 100 at a time. But 4 on 12 still makes sense to me as long at it is not 12 of the same all the time.

it would make sense to me to have a couple of areas where you fight swarms.

but for me, if you want to have a general rule of hp, cant you spread it out some?

have a caster a couple of big brusiers (that hit hard enough to 2 or 3 shot you without some cc or insane dps) and a few archers. in another room have a grease trap or wind trap that blows you around while you have archers plinking you.

something like that.

not move 4 feet have 10 20k kobolds swarm you, move 10 feet another 10 20k kobolds. repeat process

if it is possible to use stealth techniques to bypass, then load'em up!

I have not played the new quests but I hope we get to kill gnomes in one of them.

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Originally Posted by Saekee

if it is possible to use stealth techniques to bypass, then load'em up!

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The problem is that in many quests stealth is simply run and wings...

I don't think it is a problem of the AI necessary, where did the kobolds that run and hit alarm bells go?

That's the kind of stuff that prevents the idiotic invis zerging and get provides some interesting encounters.

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Originally Posted by BigErkyKid

The problem is that in many quests stealth is simply run and wings...

I don't think it is a problem of the AI necessary, where did the kobolds that run and hit alarm bells go?

That's the kind of stuff that prevents the idiotic invis zerging and get provides some interesting encounters.

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agreed! Even things that make sense like guard dogs/wolves that can detect runners or people who are lousy at stealth

I'd agree with this. Got really bored of the HP levels of the mobs in the new quests, it's just really boring. It doesn't make the mobs more challenging, just makes the quest take longer.

Would like to see less mobs, but more dangerous. Generally this has been my feeling with mobs. Or give them less HP, but give them more damage.

I was just thinking the other day, surely we won't be seeing Kobolds in new quests for a while.

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Originally Posted by Krell

I was just thinking the other day, surely we won't be seeing Kobolds in new quests for a while.

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Surely. Now the kobolds come with a Fire Burst that does 20k dmg and some insane DR on ther boss (I believe, not quite sure it was the kobold who had the DR. I know mummy for sure).


Just for the sake of it: this trend is fairly noticeable in heroics too. I've been leveling a ranger with Rys for the past months and the new quests are considerably just a pain in the ass to run. Tried Creeping Death and Curse the Sky and mobs had over 2k HP, over 2 million of mobs and the xp was..15k. Logged off immediately after the two quests. Yeah, great game Turbine tho.

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Originally Posted by Wizza

Just for the sake of it: this trend is fairly noticeable in heroics too. I've been leveling a ranger with Rys for the past months and the new quests are considerably just a pain in the ass to run. Tried Creeping Death and Curse the Sky and mobs had over 2k HP, over 2 million of mobs and the xp was..15k. Logged off immediately after the two quests. Yeah, great game Turbine tho.

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This.

The HE run is just boring now. It's not a challenge it's just a time sink, can I grind the mob down before it I fall asleep. There is no reason to run it except for favour and if I was that masochistic I'd run it waaaaaay over level just to get it over with.

And before anyone says its 'the challenge'...I can run it, I choose not to as it's BORING.

But then I was in the 'keep champions as they are' camp when they were originally introduced.

And as much as I want to play this mythical end game, everytime I end up in the Epic levels I'm in the same boat. I might as well play on EN/EH as it's fun. EE is just a slog. The return of tiered loot might help but that's unlikely. Heaven for-fend that that 'ultra' mode is ever introduced I might as well book a day of work for the amount of time it's gonna take me to slog through a couple of hundred 1KK hp mobs.

Please, please, please provide quality not quantity. Give me quests I want to replay because they're good fun, they drop good loot, they actually have a mechanic that isn't <run> MOAR MOBS <run> MOAR MOBS <run> BARRIER <repeat> trash loot. Unless I get that lucky drop (effectively zero considering the amount of chests I've pulled) all I do is take the guild renown LIKE I ALWAYS DID.

TBH I'd prefer it if you didn't release anything and concentrate on all the other quality of life issues and other systems. (*cough* Cannith). But then I'm only clamouring for a Cannith pass as trash loot is so trash.

Consider this when/if you release a classic module. We all have our favourites (Tsojcanth is mine) but whichever one is chosen please give it the respect it deserves. HH was a good example, ToEE should have been better, Ravenloft or Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (I hope) could be amazing - except deathblock defeats the purpose of almost the entire dungeon - so probably not that then :)

Ahh well rant off.

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Originally Posted by Wizza

This trend has been around a while. Each and every quest has become just a massive slaughter of mobs, every 2 steps there is an encounter with lots of mobs. At some point, killing mobs in this game has become the most boring thing to do.

I've tried the two new quests yesterday and they are no exception to this rule. The quests themselves were really nice and I liked them so props there but after killing 100 or so mobs in first few corridors, I just found myself bored to death and HAD to use invisibility because otherwise I could not have finished the quests without falling asleep. This issue is specially true at higher levels (LE and EE), where the HP of mobs is not balanced at decent levels and it takes a while to clear an encounter. Killing 300+ mobs in every quest is not fun. Killing 300+ mobs with 20k+ HP each is even less fun.

And really, kobolds again? Because you absolutely read and listened our complains about kobolds in the previous two updates. Not just that, now there are MILLIONS of kobolds that do 17k points of damage with Fire Burst.

Balance the HP mobs and rework on the number of encounters in the new quests.

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bash bash bash, next set of mobs bash bash bash, rinse/repeat....
So they are continuing the trend of brute DPS=win instead of strategy, tactics, teamwork....

no puzzles, skill challenges like bluff/diplo/intimidate, teamwork levers/passages, traps to drop mobs into, etc... you know stuff to challenge the mind vs mash attack buttons...
Hopefully the game will not fully devolve from a brain challenge towards a first person shooter point and click game... we have xbox for that...
I get the impression they are losing focus on the core fundamentals of DDO.. (based on DnD)... a game that challenged the imagination and teamwork interaction for a group of people..

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Originally Posted by JOTMON

bash bash bash, next set of mobs bash bash bash, rinse/repeat....
So they are continuing the trend of brute DPS=win instead of strategy, tactics, teamwork....

no puzzles, skill challenges like bluff/diplo/intimidate, teamwork levers/passages, traps to drop mobs into, etc... you know stuff to challenge the mind vs mash attack buttons...
Hopefully the game will not fully devolve from a brain challenge towards a first person shooter point and click game... we have xbox for that...

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When I first came to DDO what kept me was the fact that puzzles and strategy and team work mixed with combat (Notice what was first). When you through 100s of mobs at players all with Max HP and Max DPS players will retaliate by pumping their DPS to 11 and then miss out on things developers could do.

I would love to see Turbine return to the idea that all quests be balanced to 4 characters. I'm not saying make it impossible to solo, but don't be afraid of puzzles and mechanics that work best if 2 to 4 characters work together.

If you make quests where DPS doesn't matter and can be solved by simply solving puzzles I think it would be going to the other extreme. The better answer is to mix it up, some quests more DPS and some more puzzle. In all cases strategy is an option.

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Originally Posted by Enoach

When I first came to DDO what kept me was the fact that puzzles and strategy and team work mixed with combat (Notice what was first). When you through 100s of mobs at players all with Max HP and Max DPS players will retaliate by pumping their DPS to 11 and then miss out on things developers could do.

I would love to see Turbine return to the idea that all quests be balanced to 4 characters. I'm not saying make it impossible to solo, but don't be afraid of puzzles and mechanics that work best if 2 to 4 characters work together.

If you make quests where DPS doesn't matter and can be solved by simply solving puzzles I think it would be going to the other extreme. The better answer is to mix it up, some quests more DPS and some more puzzle. In all cases strategy is an option.

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This is where creative thinking comes into play..
puzzles that drops the mobs into a pit, or activates a trap on the mobs instead of having to melee them directly. opens the gates to the unfed hounds that attacks them instead of us...
runes/levers/secret doors to bypass or lock mobs down...
alternative pathways, secret keys to open doors instead of having to beatfest down a hallway to go around the door.
freeing prisoners that attack the mobs...
items that can be utilized by certain pools of classes to open access to otherwise inaccessible areas..

...bring more bypass skills to the class not the player ..
Runes that bypass sections of puzzles based on certain stats.. barbarian cant figure out the rune.. hes a barbarian... so has to do the puzzle manually.. but the aligned class realizes its a bypass switch and can solve a whole section of the puzzle with the rune..
rusty grate doorway.. rawr str smash... or hang on... theres a spot to cast grease.... and next to the old rusty grate is a bypass trapped secret door..hey a fellow gnome made this bypass door..might be able to disable this trap without a rogue...
alternatives to rogues.. ranger (or class with high spot skill) can see a worn path down the trapped hallway ..says step where I step....
.. alternative paths if you do not have the ideal class to solve the specific puzzle.. has been an issue in quests like Tempest spine.. don't have INT/door opener/STR.. its an issue.. let us go a longer alternative route to get back to the same end result...

many of these have been used in old quests.. Haunted Halls was a great (sort of recent) one..

would prefer to see more quests setup so that a balanced party has alternatives to just pure brute dps bashdown..

bring this back to a game of brains, not just buttonmash brawn.

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Originally Posted by Enoach

When I first came to DDO what kept me was the fact that puzzles and strategy and team work mixed with combat (Notice what was first). When you through 100s of mobs at players all with Max HP and Max DPS players will retaliate by pumping their DPS to 11 and then miss out on things developers could do.

I would love to see Turbine return to the idea that all quests be balanced to 4 characters. I'm not saying make it impossible to solo, but don't be afraid of puzzles and mechanics that work best if 2 to 4 characters work together.

If you make quests where DPS doesn't matter and can be solved by simply solving puzzles I think it would be going to the other extreme. The better answer is to mix it up, some quests more DPS and some more puzzle. In all cases strategy is an option.

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I recommend listening to the DDO Players news that was on last night with Knockback. Some great information on dungeon design and puzzles.

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Originally Posted by Wizza

... And really, kobolds again? ...

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Omg! Is this the truth? Kobolds? We are already Dungeons&Kobolds Online. Omg omg ... i´m so really really sick of them, kobolds!

Dear Devs, please stop that **** with kobolds!

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Originally Posted by Enoach

When I first came to DDO what kept me was the fact that puzzles and strategy and team work mixed with combat (Notice what was first). When you through 100s of mobs at players all with Max HP and Max DPS players will retaliate by pumping their DPS to 11 and then miss out on things developers could do.

I would love to see Turbine return to the idea that all quests be balanced to 4 characters. I'm not saying make it impossible to solo, but don't be afraid of puzzles and mechanics that work best if 2 to 4 characters work together.

If you make quests where DPS doesn't matter and can be solved by simply solving puzzles I think it would be going to the other extreme. The better answer is to mix it up, some quests more DPS and some more puzzle. In all cases strategy is an option.

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Game resources must be used.
- quest like rainbow in the dark with an item to illuminate a short distance.
- more quest with jumps, Swim, traps, puzzle.

For me, they really hit the sweet spot of what I experienced with D&D with Phiarlan Carnival and Fens back-to-back. I still really like those packs. There have been a few "interesting" bits and pieces released since (I do like Chronoscope), but there have been no packs or expansions that have gotten me excited. TOEE was sadly a huge swing and a miss compared to what it could have been; they had such great source material for that.

The creativity is on on a slow downward slope. It feels like they want to simply meet deadlines and get...well...something new out. I get it, it's a business but still...

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Originally Posted by JOTMON

bash bash bash, next set of mobs bash bash bash, rinse/repeat....
So they are continuing the trend of brute DPS=win instead of strategy, tactics, teamwork....

no puzzles, skill challenges like bluff/diplo/intimidate, teamwork levers/passages, traps to drop mobs into, etc... you know stuff to challenge the mind vs mash attack buttons...
Hopefully the game will not fully devolve from a brain challenge towards a first person shooter point and click game... we have xbox for that...
I get the impression they are losing focus on the core fundamentals of DDO.. (based on DnD)... a game that challenged the imagination and teamwork interaction for a group of people..

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Rys and I were both disappointed with the lack of traps and puzzles in the new quests. Well, maybe disappointed isn't the right word, since we both expected it anyway.

Sadly this thread will lead to nowhere and will just be ignored by the majority of players and/or Devs, both because I'm on ignore and mostly because they simply do not care to balance the game any longer.

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

I recommend listening to the DDO Players news that was on last night with Knockback. Some great information on dungeon design and puzzles.

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No offense meant but the last thing I want to do is listen to Knockback talk about something that they do not use in game anymore (puzzles) while getting bored running HE new packs with my ranger.

If he wants to talk to us, he can do so in the OFFICIAL forums and explain why traps and puzzles disappeared from quest design. Let me be clear, he is not forced to come on here but I surely won't go out of my way to listen to him as well.

Actually, I do not enjoy the vast majority of puzzles in the game. The reason is that they don't challenge my wits, just my memory.

For me what is interesting is to have tasks that require coordination in the party. Not necessarily just touch two levers at the same time (sigh), which is the lazy approach.

Something like having the rogue / sneaky toon scout ahead for the paths with less mob density or to eliminate sentinels. Stuff that relates to "roles". I want to play as the character, not hang out doing tasks that ANYONE could do given the proper metagaming knowledge.

Having had a quick view at the quests, all I can say is "meh". Particularly for the DDTW v2 one with the dragon. Kill, advance, kill, advance. Kill boss. Maybe the Knockback that gives lessons on quest design should be the one crafting the new quests and now whoever is doing that now.

Would be nice to see a quest using the fly spell. During the recent cast cordovan was flying over Stormreach so something like flying devils and dragons aerial attack. Other parts could use some mechanics to force them to land to include ground combat. I would think the places like rooftops of Stormreach could make another good battleground similar to how chronoscope was.

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Originally Posted by Wizza

No offense meant but the last thing I want to do is listen to Knockback talk about something that they do not use in game anymore (puzzles) while getting bored running HE new packs with my ranger.

If he wants to talk to us, he can do so in the OFFICIAL forums and explain why traps and puzzles disappeared from quest design. Let me be clear, he is not forced to come on here but I surely won't go out of my way to listen to him as well.

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The thing is wizza (and I'm guilty of this too), hearing and seeing is different from reading. When they write here, if they aren't word perfect the community (again, me included) picks it apart like it's a legal statement, analysing clauses and sub clauses and inferring meaning that is actually best conveyed through tone of voice or body language. Doesn't help deaf players much but sometimes... I'd rather just hear them explain themselves. You get a much better feel for what they *mean*.

I think for mob density, some of the very old ones had it just right - off the top of my head, a good example is irestone inlet where the groups consist of a mix of enemy types who attack you in different ways & with it's mixture of placed & roaming enemies you need a degree of alertness not to have them sneak up on you while you're busy with the group if you don't approach it with a little sense.

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Originally Posted by Wizza

Sadly this thread will lead to nowhere and will just be ignored by the majority of players and/or Devs, both because I'm on ignore and mostly because they simply do not care to balance the game any longer.

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Maybe the majority of players and/or Devs don't agree with you?

Not saying it's true, but isn't that another possibility?

nm.

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

Some great information on dungeon design and puzzles.

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To somewhat set this misleading statement into perspective, knockback said, in reply to a direct question if in the future there would be more and new puzzles that yes, they would DO puzzles but NOT NEW puzzles for content updates like the current 3 f2p quests size - and that we MIGHT see new puzzles, possibly, in a larger update context.

Translate: we do not currently have development ressources to spend on stuff like this and if we were to code a new puzzle mechanic like we did in wyrm, then it would only happen in a bigger content update where it can be re-used multiple times to make it somewhat worthwhile.

nvm ...

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Originally Posted by BigErkyKid

Actually, I do not enjoy the vast majority of puzzles in the game. The reason is that they don't challenge my wits, just my memory.

....

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Puzzles in DDO (Excluding must stand on x and y or pull x and y at the same time)

Master Mind
This puzzle is seen in the Reaver's Fate Raid and while there is a solver to help players because of the 4 slots with 6 possible there is no real way to memorize the puzzle itself so this is more a element of deduction and not a memory. Additionally, this is made harder as you have a timer as well as mobs that can knock you around if not dealt with.

Deduction Puzzle (Riddles)
Found in The Crucible in Gianthold. This is the puzzle with six doors and you need to guess which door the horn is behind. Granted most people simply pick the same door over and over again until it is the right door, there is a way to solve this. If your wisdom is very low you will get DM text across the screen telling you which door the horn is in something like 10 or below wisdom. But that is also not possible for many players as tomes actually hurt us as it brings our wisdom up. But what people miss out on is that it gives you clues - Up to 3 which you can use to figure out which door you need to open. Of course the door numbers are on the floor and in Roman Numerals :)

Another that fits this is Demon Queen Pre Raid with the puzzle of Six Swords. There is actually a pattern to the solution, now because it is only Six slots and with the knowledge of what is First and what is last you are really only solving 4 slots with 4 possibilities of which you know that the first line indicates the first slot of the 4 is one of the two mentioned meaning etc. So again we only have a page outlining all possible solutions because there is only a finite of possible solutions.

Another that also fits here is Litany of the Dead. This one has 4 solutions and there are guides on how to answer to open up the path that you want. However, all of these questions can be answered if you actually read the NPC text and story lines and gain a little understanding of each boss as well as understanding Alignment in the DnD universe.



Lights out puzzles 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 and Circle
These are pattern puzzles really not much you can do except memorize a solve philosophy and look for a pattern not much different then solving a rubics cube.
These are seen in The Pit (Original location), Shroud, and Demon Web Trial by Fury

The more unique ones are the ones that are not Squares but are lights on the floor like Monastery of the Scorpion, the solution takes a little more then a single method and even with a solver it can become difficult as mobs run over sections. This particular one not only needs patience it needs support from other party members to control the mobs.

Another similar puzzle can be found in Enter the Kobold where you are ported around in a pattern much like a knight on a chess board. While one could memorize a pattern to get the whole board, most just keep going until it is all lit up.

Light Path Tiles
This is where you turn a tile to light a path. These are memorization puzzles and they are found in quests like Twilight Forge (Green Room), Ghost of a Chance, The Scoundrel's Run, Cannieth Challenges the ones where you are in the Manner, Delirium, VoN5 and more - This is probably one of the more used puzzle types. While the Mirrors in Deathwyrm are a different take, they are similar in nature to this type.

Wheel Puzzles
6 symbols on a wheel with the solutions scattered in the dungeon where the puzzle is. Seen in The Pit, Haywires Foundry, The Crucible, Under the Big top and a few other places. One of my favorite places this can be found is in Schemes of the Enemy - Solve a puzzle to unlock a door and also in the end fight if you solve the puzzle it depowers the teleporting defense system making it easier to kill as it is not porting during that time. It is a swell way to make this last fight a far cry easier then many make it.

Maze
Mazes could be something as simple as the Gates in Maze of Madness or Complex like the areas most groups skip in Deathwyrm. Other places that utilize maze The Crucible and Prey on the Hunter.


Personally I would like to see more puzzles like Master mind and deduction (Riddle) based on in game dialog. It would be even cooler if such puzzles (riddles) were based on different perception skills, such as Search, Spot, and Listen or even would be something that with strategy you can discover such as if you sneak and are not spotted you get to overhear a conversation or when you rescue an NPC in a room Such as in Chains of Flame with the dwarf they give you knowledge you will need to proceed.


Edit: Just a note if a Developer does read this... Maze puzzles where you die if you pick the wrong path are dumb. Port us back to the start, Port us into a fight but instant death is lame.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JOTMON

bash bash bash, next set of mobs bash bash bash, rinse/repeat....
So they are continuing the trend of brute DPS=win instead of strategy, tactics, teamwork....

no puzzles, skill challenges like bluff/diplo/intimidate, teamwork levers/passages, traps to drop mobs into, etc... you know stuff to challenge the mind vs mash attack buttons...
Hopefully the game will not fully devolve from a brain challenge towards a first person shooter point and click game... we have xbox for that...
I get the impression they are losing focus on the core fundamentals of DDO.. (based on DnD)... a game that challenged the imagination and teamwork interaction for a group of people..

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This - and the over-inflated HP of mobs needs to be fixed. Stop player power creep and stop the inflated HP! I was running LH shroud the other day again (wont even try LE due to lag) - and I honestly just got bored and wanted to quit in part one and had a hard time convincing myself to keep going due to just how much hp the portals have one after another after another, and then on part 2 with two ranged toons and 3 casters we had to two round the crystal to move on, re-prepping and re-killing the half a million HP red-names.... (which seems to never be a one time and it works thing with pug groups) it was just boring as hell.

For comparison I honestly could not tell you how many regular shrouds back in the day I've ran (one toon out of my 11 for example was at 200 completions before I TR'd him) because it was a fun raid to me - was a mix of hack and slash with puzzles/working together - now it's just hit auto attack, go make a pizza and come back rinse and repeat....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enoach

Puzzles in DDO (Excluding must stand on x and y or pull x and y at the same time)

Master Mind
This puzzle is seen in the Reaver's Fate Raid and while there is a solver to help players because of the 4 slots with 6 possible there is no real way to memorize the puzzle itself so this is more a element of deduction and not a memory. Additionally, this is made harder as you have a timer as well as mobs that can knock you around if not dealt with.

Deduction Puzzle (Riddles)
Found in The Crucible in Gianthold. This is the puzzle with six doors and you need to guess which door the horn is behind. Granted most people simply pick the same door over and over again until it is the right door, there is a way to solve this. If your wisdom is very low you will get DM text across the screen telling you which door the horn is in something like 10 or below wisdom. But that is also not possible for many players as tomes actually hurt us as it brings our wisdom up. But what people miss out on is that it gives you clues - Up to 3 which you can use to figure out which door you need to open. Of course the door numbers are on the floor and in Roman Numerals :)

Another that fits this is Demon Queen Pre Raid with the puzzle of Six Swords. There is actually a pattern to the solution, now because it is only Six slots and with the knowledge of what is First and what is last you are really only solving 4 slots with 4 possibilities of which you know that the first line indicates the first slot of the 4 is one of the two mentioned meaning etc. So again we only have a page outlining all possible solutions because there is only a finite of possible solutions.

Another that also fits here is Litany of the Dead. This one has 4 solutions and there are guides on how to answer to open up the path that you want. However, all of these questions can be answered if you actually read the NPC text and story lines and gain a little understanding of each boss as well as understanding Alignment in the DnD universe.



Lights out puzzles 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 and Circle
These are pattern puzzles really not much you can do except memorize a solve philosophy and look for a pattern not much different then solving a rubics cube.
These are seen in The Pit (Original location), Shroud, and Demon Web Trial by Fury

The more unique ones are the ones that are not Squares but are lights on the floor like Monastery of the Scorpion, the solution takes a little more then a single method and even with a solver it can become difficult as mobs run over sections. This particular one not only needs patience it needs support from other party members to control the mobs.

Another similar puzzle can be found in Enter the Kobold where you are ported around in a pattern much like a knight on a chess board. While one could memorize a pattern to get the whole board, most just keep going until it is all lit up.

Light Path Tiles
This is where you turn a tile to light a path. These are memorization puzzles and they are found in quests like Twilight Forge (Green Room), Ghost of a Chance, The Scoundrel's Run, Cannieth Challenges the ones where you are in the Manner, Delirium, VoN5 and more - This is probably one of the more used puzzle types. While the Mirrors in Deathwyrm are a different take, they are similar in nature to this type.

Wheel Puzzles
6 symbols on a wheel with the solutions scattered in the dungeon where the puzzle is. Seen in The Pit, Haywires Foundry, The Crucible, Under the Big top and a few other places. One of my favorite places this can be found is in Schemes of the Enemy - Solve a puzzle to unlock a door and also in the end fight if you solve the puzzle it depowers the teleporting defense system making it easier to kill as it is not porting during that time. It is a swell way to make this last fight a far cry easier then many make it.

Maze
Mazes could be something as simple as the Gates in Maze of Madness or Complex like the areas most groups skip in Deathwyrm. Other places that utilize maze The Crucible and Prey on the Hunter.


Personally I would like to see more puzzles like Master mind and deduction (Riddle) based on in game dialog. It would be even cooler if such puzzles (riddles) were based on different perception skills, such as Search, Spot, and Listen or even would be something that with strategy you can discover such as if you sneak and are not spotted you get to overhear a conversation or when you rescue an NPC in a room Such as in Chains of Flame with the dwarf they give you knowledge you will need to proceed.

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That's a nice compendium. Again I do not enjoy most of the puzzles, as most are just metagaming (memorize the answer) even if at first they could indeed be solved by wits. But they get old super fast, as soon you pick the pattern and just solve. Monastery is the only one I like as people need to be a bit clever with the mobs touching it.


I don't think that puzzles in DDO allow for much replay value, and they certainly do not appeal to my PnP instinct, which is about cooperation (and not standing looking at a puzzle and solving it). If I wanted to solve puzzles (without gameplay elements around it, and that's most puzzles in DDO), I would buy puzzles not play DDO.

So give me gameplay elements that are puzzle like (needing to fill different roles and what not) but not literal puzzles. ZzzzZZZZzzz von5 puzzle. Yay a test to how smart I am (nope!).

I love all the puzzles in DDO.

I've only memorized a few... The replay is high for me since I do not repeat quests over and over. On a typical life, I will run most quests only once in heroic and epic (I can usually get through 3 epic lives without repeating much).

And this takes me a couple of months. So by the time I TR again and repeat a quest, I have forgotten the puzzle, and have to figure it out again.

One thing I will admit, many puzzles are better for solo play. But I think they are a very cool part of DDO.

On the topic of puzzles my favourite by far is the light puzzle at the end of siegebreaker.

With the lag that we're dealing with these days I don't understand why anyone is even considering making another pack-mob loaded quest or whatever you call it. It's like asking for another DotJ-disaster.

And on a note, a quest like WGU, which is my favourite quest in the game, the mobpackmobbing is actually really nice. The Orchard wilderness is also really wonderful. So, really, the issue here is the fact that when you make a packmobmobbing quest, there's a solid chance that it will be a lag-hell. Fix that, and people will soon learn to love mobbingpack mobs!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

Maybe the majority of players and/or Devs don't agree with you?

Not saying it's true, but isn't that another possibility?

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If you do not agree with this thread, then you (a general you) are hopeless. If you cant see how boring it is to fight 300 mobs in every quest with 30k hp each, then I cant do much for you.

But kobolds! Yay!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JOTMON

This is where creative thinking comes into play..
puzzles that drops the mobs into a pit, or activates a trap on the mobs instead of having to melee them directly. opens the gates to the unfed hounds that attacks them instead of us...
runes/levers/secret doors to bypass or lock mobs down...
alternative pathways, secret keys to open doors instead of having to beatfest down a hallway to go around the door.
freeing prisoners that attack the mobs...
items that can be utilized by certain pools of classes to open access to otherwise inaccessible areas..

...bring more bypass skills to the class not the player ..
Runes that bypass sections of puzzles based on certain stats.. barbarian cant figure out the rune.. hes a barbarian... so has to do the puzzle manually.. but the aligned class realizes its a bypass switch and can solve a whole section of the puzzle with the rune..
rusty grate doorway.. rawr str smash... or hang on... theres a spot to cast grease.... and next to the old rusty grate is a bypass trapped secret door..hey a fellow gnome made this bypass door..might be able to disable this trap without a rogue...
alternatives to rogues.. ranger (or class with high spot skill) can see a worn path down the trapped hallway ..says step where I step....
.. alternative paths if you do not have the ideal class to solve the specific puzzle.. has been an issue in quests like Tempest spine.. don't have INT/door opener/STR.. its an issue.. let us go a longer alternative route to get back to the same end result...

many of these have been used in old quests.. Haunted Halls was a great (sort of recent) one..

would prefer to see more quests setup so that a balanced party has alternatives to just pure brute dps bashdown..

bring this back to a game of brains, not just buttonmash brawn.

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This would be great if they could give us a bunch of new quests to run every week. Else we just end up with quests that we know what to bring to after the first completion or so. Look at Tear of Dhakaan, we know to bring a temp wizzy or barb hire to get the first two pieces if nobody can make the scores, we know the rout and the rougher spots and the tricks to beating them. One thing about mindless DPS beat downs is they don't become automatic once figured out. They also don't only get played when a group happens to have the right skill set to make playing it worthwhile.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wizza

Deduction Puzzle (Riddles)
Found in The Crucible in Gianthold. This is the puzzle with six doors and you need to guess which door the horn is behind. Granted most people simply pick the same door over and over again until it is the right door, there is a way to solve this. If your wisdom is very low you will get DM text across the screen telling you which door the horn is in something like 10 or below wisdom. But that is also not possible for many players as tomes actually hurt us as it brings our wisdom up. But what people miss out on is that it gives you clues - Up to 3 which you can use to figure out which door you need to open. Of course the door numbers are on the floor and in Roman Numerals :)

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Drink a "silver flame potion" and take of the wisdom item.
With the rarity of monks,caster druids and clerics, you're bound to have a toon in a full party whose stats drop enough to get the true dm hint.


As for the rest of this thread, i agree, DDO has become blend, i rather spend my time playing legacy quests for its better design and balance (350 damage AOE attacks spammed by hordes of abishai in lv 13 quests anyone?).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lyrecono

snip
As for the rest of this thread, i agree, DDO has become blend, i rather spend my time playing legacy quests for its better design and balance (350 damage AOE attacks spammed by hordes of abishai in lv 13 quests anyone?).

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I see you enjoyed those innovative quests as much as I did!

Go to intersection. Pack of abishai kill. Go to next intersection. Pack of abishai. Kill.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lyrecono

Drink a "silver flame potion" and take of the wisdom item.

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Nice. I hadn't thought of that. I learned something new today :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pele5vptVgc

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enoach

Puzzles in DDO (Excluding must stand on x and y or pull x and y at the same time)

Master Mind
This puzzle is seen in the Reaver's Fate Raid and while there is a solver to help players because of the 4 slots with 6 possible there is no real way to memorize the puzzle itself so this is more a element of deduction and not a memory. Additionally, this is made harder as you have a timer as well as mobs that can knock you around if not dealt with.

Deduction Puzzle (Riddles)
Found in The Crucible in Gianthold. This is the puzzle with six doors and you need to guess which door the horn is behind. Granted most people simply pick the same door over and over again until it is the right door, there is a way to solve this. If your wisdom is very low you will get DM text across the screen telling you which door the horn is in something like 10 or below wisdom. But that is also not possible for many players as tomes actually hurt us as it brings our wisdom up. But what people miss out on is that it gives you clues - Up to 3 which you can use to figure out which door you need to open. Of course the door numbers are on the floor and in Roman Numerals :)

Another that fits this is Demon Queen Pre Raid with the puzzle of Six Swords. There is actually a pattern to the solution, now because it is only Six slots and with the knowledge of what is First and what is last you are really only solving 4 slots with 4 possibilities of which you know that the first line indicates the first slot of the 4 is one of the two mentioned meaning etc. So again we only have a page outlining all possible solutions because there is only a finite of possible solutions.

Another that also fits here is Litany of the Dead. This one has 4 solutions and there are guides on how to answer to open up the path that you want. However, all of these questions can be answered if you actually read the NPC text and story lines and gain a little understanding of each boss as well as understanding Alignment in the DnD universe.



Lights out puzzles 3x3, 4x4, 5x5 and Circle
These are pattern puzzles really not much you can do except memorize a solve philosophy and look for a pattern not much different then solving a rubics cube.
These are seen in The Pit (Original location), Shroud, and Demon Web Trial by Fury

The more unique ones are the ones that are not Squares but are lights on the floor like Monastery of the Scorpion, the solution takes a little more then a single method and even with a solver it can become difficult as mobs run over sections. This particular one not only needs patience it needs support from other party members to control the mobs.

Another similar puzzle can be found in Enter the Kobold where you are ported around in a pattern much like a knight on a chess board. While one could memorize a pattern to get the whole board, most just keep going until it is all lit up.

Light Path Tiles
This is where you turn a tile to light a path. These are memorization puzzles and they are found in quests like Twilight Forge (Green Room), Ghost of a Chance, The Scoundrel's Run, Cannieth Challenges the ones where you are in the Manner, Delirium, VoN5 and more - This is probably one of the more used puzzle types. While the Mirrors in Deathwyrm are a different take, they are similar in nature to this type.

Wheel Puzzles
6 symbols on a wheel with the solutions scattered in the dungeon where the puzzle is. Seen in The Pit, Haywires Foundry, The Crucible, Under the Big top and a few other places. One of my favorite places this can be found is in Schemes of the Enemy - Solve a puzzle to unlock a door and also in the end fight if you solve the puzzle it depowers the teleporting defense system making it easier to kill as it is not porting during that time. It is a swell way to make this last fight a far cry easier then many make it.

Maze
Mazes could be something as simple as the Gates in Maze of Madness or Complex like the areas most groups skip in Deathwyrm. Other places that utilize maze The Crucible and Prey on the Hunter.


Personally I would like to see more puzzles like Master mind and deduction (Riddle) based on in game dialog. It would be even cooler if such puzzles (riddles) were based on different perception skills, such as Search, Spot, and Listen or even would be something that with strategy you can discover such as if you sneak and are not spotted you get to overhear a conversation or when you rescue an NPC in a room Such as in Chains of Flame with the dwarf they give you knowledge you will need to proceed.


Edit: Just a note if a Developer does read this... Maze puzzles where you die if you pick the wrong path are dumb. Port us back to the start, Port us into a fight but instant death is lame.

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abbot tiles i would also consider a puzzle, and it is definitely by far the best puzzle in the game.

theres no way to memorize a solution because afaik the timing on all of the tiles is random for each instance. and its not just a matter of using your head either. you have to coordinate information with another person, and there is a physical process which has to be executed properly. its a complete puzzle because it forces you to actually turn your brain on, be able to give or follow directions, and actually complete a task which is subject to user error, meaning you cant have somebody with absolutely no manual dexterity whatsoever doing it. and the best thing is, the noobs who have insane stats simply because they played for thousands of hours without actually learning anything because they have only run common quests/raids and only on heroic elite and epic normal are exposed for being exactly that, and it is wonderful.

while i wouldnt exactly call roids or ice puzzles exactly, i think they are also great minigames because while they can be cheated or the challenge voided by sufficiently high stats, there is still a definite challenge of coordination and manual dexterity.

this is why, amongst other reasons too actually, i think abbot is singlehandedly the most fun (when its not being cheated) and best designed raid or quest in the entire game. every run is different, and its not just a stats check.


i also wouldnt call the yellow room in twilight forge a puzzle exactly either, but its another one of those things that if done the intended way can involve some critical thinking, coordination, and manual dexterity in combination.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wizza

This trend has been around a while. Each and every quest has become just a massive slaughter of mobs, every 2 steps there is an encounter with lots of mobs. At some point, killing mobs in this game has become the most boring thing to do.

I've tried the two new quests yesterday and they are no exception to this rule. The quests themselves were really nice and I liked them so props there but after killing 100 or so mobs in first few corridors, I just found myself bored to death and HAD to use invisibility because otherwise I could not have finished the quests without falling asleep. This issue is specially true at higher levels (LE and EE), where the HP of mobs is not balanced at decent levels and it takes a while to clear an encounter. Killing 300+ mobs in every quest is not fun. Killing 300+ mobs with 20k+ HP each is even less fun.

And really, kobolds again? Because you absolutely read and listened our complains about kobolds in the previous two updates. Not just that, now there are MILLIONS of kobolds that do 17k points of damage with Fire Burst.

Balance the HP mobs and rework on the number of encounters in the new quests.

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Hey Devs can we pliss m?k? kobold 30k hp+ becouse is not fun on my rogue kill it so fast ur big Group poor mobs , plisss let this game harder....troliolol

Yeah, baby! Maybe DDO could take some design tips if they want to use Dynasty Warriors style Unit Density.

Making melees use actual group fighting, which causes them to hit more than one enemy at a time (like in the real world), would vastly improve the general quality of life for every single player in DDO that's not using an AoE attack style (E.g. Warlock Aura/Cone or Sorcerer Blaster of whatever element). I really think the Devs need to do this if they are going to use huge swarms of mobs.

D&D uses single target melee attack protocols because in D&D, encounters are relatively small (e.g. 1 dragon and 2 cronies, or 4 bugbears and a goblin slave in a Hard encounter). DDO has gravitated toward Musou style clans of mobs that gather in huge bunches because that's the fastest way to challenge folks crying out for more challenge.

Most of you Lamannians are advocating hard and harder content and honestly it's tough to balance between you and the literally-brand-new-to-DDO-and-D&D players, so the Devs just offer more balanced encounters between you and entire villages that have for some reason chosen to gather in one big area and clump together. They don't fight very well because the Devs have had to cut their IQ for server load reasons.

I like puzzles. Unfortunately, DDO has implemented most of the ones that work with their engine already that aren't nightmarishly hard (like that huge electric grid that takes 10 minutes in 3 Barrel Cove). Yes, DDO needs an engine update, but DDO is designed for a certain style of play and if that has gone stale for you, then go do something else until you enjoy it again and can come back smiling. That's why I dabble in making mods for Sins of a Solar Empire, X-Rebirth, Fallout 4 and other games. DDO cannot be your go-to game for all those genres because we don't have an engine that can support underwater and aerial combat; that places us in scenarios that happen in D&D all the time where we need to use a grappling hook and rope to navigate somewhere and where we can put on featherfall then kick off a cliffside to 'fly' toward a target far away below us. Sure, it would be lovely in WB Games funded that and this D&D premise certainly allows for expansions like that but they would need to completely change the game engine and it really looks like they are struggling just to put out updates that are years overdue (e.g. Monk Enhancement tree tweaks; Crafting update).

So, since you have complained to death about "More challenge!" and they are doing their best with what they have to work with, and you folks are now complaining about "Too stale! Different kind of more challenge!" the Developers are most certainly at a loss as to how exactly meet your incessant childish demands and build their game to be better for the entire population (especially the silent majority that just play and don't live on the forums) at the same time. Why childish? Because you don't sit and think about what is best for the hundreds of thousands of people that play this, you only think about your personal perspective and what you want most. This isn't to start a flame war, this is to point something out. Being considerate, constructive and peace-loving is critically important in a community.

So yeah, let's push for minimal investment maximum impact changes for efficiency reasons because Turbine is really struggling just to keep up. Help them out.