Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon¹.

---

Arcane Archer

• Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank
• DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:
  
  • Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
  • Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
  • Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
  • Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
  • Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
  • Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
  • Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality¹ on each hit.
    
    • Pull of Reality¹: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).
  
  
• Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)
  
  • Increase base damage to 1d8.
  • Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
  • Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
  • Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
  • Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
  • Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower
  
  
• Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"
  
  
• Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Dexterity bonus increased to +4
  
  
• Slaying Arrow:
  
  • Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)

---

This accomplishes a few goals:

1. DC based abilities² have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).
2. Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.
3. Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
4. Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.

Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!

---

Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)

---

^{P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!}

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vargouille

[*]Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.

---

You mean core enhancement? or is this the go to tree for a Enchantment wizard now?

O think I get it now each of Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrow gives +1 so at total of +4?

AA needs some kind of fletching. Any tier is fine, even Tier 5. Even if you don't add the +10 ranged power, though I'd prefer they get it.

Second, please increase the stack size of arrows in inventory. 1000, 500, even 200. It just needs to be (significantly) more than 100. With that plus fletching, AAs could then actually use arrows strategically. We could craft up a bunch of bane arrows and swap around depending on our target, much like how melee could craft a bunch of bane weapons and easily swap as needed.

Note that we simply cannot use quivers as they were intended, which I'm not even sure I can suss out what the actual intent was. They just don't work in the heat of battle. Instead, let us stack our arrows directly in inventory for easy hotbarring, and let us make any arrow 80% returning like mechanics can with their bolts.

In a perfect world, ammunition would be part of weaponset logic, so like I could choose an undead weaponset that would select Silver Slinger and Undead Slaying arrows, for example. Totally fine if it only works on arrows in inventory, not in quivers.

EDIT: If you wanted to add some kind of alternative to fletching, like say arrows never return but when your stack runs out, a new 100 of the same type is conjured for 20 spell points, fine by me. My main issue is that I draw closer to my next life -- pure ranger AA 100% bow user -- I really want ammunition to be a thing. It would be if I were doing a mechanic life. Seems wrong that AA doesn't get similar ranged coolness to a knucklehead with a crossbow.

Looks interesting. However: why no changes to manyshot and doubleshoot penalty? That needs to happen.

All the additions to doubleshot are meaningless without a change.

First I'm coming from the perspective of Elf to access AA and not Ranger.

• Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses

I personally enjoy a 12/8 Elf Fighter/Wizard. My primary attribute is Dexterity. While I don't ignore wisdom I'm trying to understand why Dexterity Modifier is not an OR option. To me Dexterity works well especially with Elf and leveraging Grace's Dexterity to Damage.

I understand that wisdom is a recommended attribute for Rangers but most builds only go for enough wisdom to meet spell level which is needing to hit 14.

Also the fact that most Arcane classes are either Intelligence based or Charisma based.

I would like to ask if possible to allow this to be the highest of Wisdom/Dexterity/Intelligence/Charisma.

This would open up more build options for the AA tree as well as remove the advantage a Monk AA build would have over other builds.

I do understand that Wizard AA builds do get an advantage with access to a Spell Focus Feat(s) so that might also need to be considered.

==============================
I like the elemental arrow direction - especially the spell power part, may even consider these with this type of change.

==============================
As pointed out by another poster. Are we going to see a change in the Doubleshot penalty from Manyshot/10K Stars?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vargouille

[*]Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

• Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"

---

18 Levels of Ranger, or elf / high elf i assume?

I love the idea of making The d.c.s relevant and the elemental damage scaleable. The cores are a bit of a concern and I wonder if the requirements could be changed to Ranger level or elf, half elf, sun elf character level?

Arcane Archer should base their DCs of spell like abilities from intelligence not wisdom if from a non physical stat at all in my opinion. Yes Rangers cast druidic spells...in flavor, but we are talking Arcane here. In fact they should be admitted to Arcane spells, or the ability to cast arcane scrolls as though they were certain levels of Arcane Casters or have spell like abilities.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrWindupBird

Looks interesting. However: why no changes to manyshot and doubleshoot penalty? That needs to happen.

All the additions to doubleshot are meaningless without a change.

---

I agree AA should have a reductions of the manyshot doubleshot penalty.

Devs can you comment on this? Is this a possibility or is it out of the question?

Overall seems like a good start, but why base the DC of the special arrows on Wisdom? 20 + Wis Mod + Enchantment bonuses simply won't be high enough for epic elite unless you have Wis as your main stat, and even then it wouldn't be the best dc out there. I understand that it's a spammable ability, but to base it on Wisdom...the DC will be almost the same it is on live. If you used Dex mod instead, it would a much more viable form of CC. Assuming a decent dex (say, 50) it would be 20 + 20 + 6 (assuming 2 x SF: Enchant), and 46 isn't really a great DC for EE. It would work since it's applied to every arrow though, so at least it wouldn't be only functional when the mob rolls a 1.

Hi,

I don't think WIS is a good choice of attribute as the basis for arrow effect DCs. It plays right into the hands of monkchers, yet again, rather than DEX based archers. The bonus from investing in WIS is also too small to be worthwhile as a build option in itself for non monk archers, so the effect will be to reward even further people who are already building for 10k stars while doing much less for anyone else. Additionally, the proposed DC formula looks like it will have a point where the usefulness of special effects will drop off very sharply in harder content, as it does now, but just a bit later on.

Similarly, builds which can achieve a higher RoF (like 10k stars builds) will benefit more from improved arrow effects. So by improving the imbues, you are doing more for those builds. The issue of RoF is the central problem for archers right now, both in that it is very uneven within archery builds, and also in that it compares very unfavourably to other ranged styles (throwers and particularly crossbow users). This was mentioned repeatedly by people during the DWS discussions, and it seems very much like the development team is simply ignoring the issue altogether.

Regarding those earlier discussions, some of us also made the point then that it is difficult to evaluate these changes without knowing what the dev team has in mind for the manyshot-induced doubleshot penalty and what, if anything, is happening to 10k stars. I'd like to suggest again that we be provided with some information sooner rather than later about what those plans are, so we can give you our feedback without half the information we need being missing.

Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vargouille

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon¹.

---

Arcane Archer

• Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank
• DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:
  
  • Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
  • Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
  • Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
  • Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
  
  
• This could be very overpowered. Personally, I think this is too much crowd control ability. But it depends on perspective. I also think bard CC and Warchanter are too strong. But if you compare these AA changes to them, then it appears well balanced.
• 
  
  • Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
  • Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
  • Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality¹ on each hit.
    
    • Pull of Reality¹: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).
  
  
• Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)
  
  • Increase base damage to 1d8.
  • Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
  • Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
  • Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
  • Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
  • Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower
  
  
• This. Very good. Was needed very much. Finally, can dish out some damage compared to melee. But of course, how to balance ranged damage? Technically there's no threat from mobs, you are at range after all, and can even move when needed! (feets don't fail me now!) I don't envy you. How NOT to make an unstoppable killing machine can't be easy. Imagine, Warlocks aura at infinite range!
• Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"
  • Oh boy, hjere we go again. You know we're gonna get calls for a Tier 5 Crit threat expansion. Make it cost 5 ap? :D
  
  
• Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Dexterity bonus increased to +4
  
  
• Slaying Arrow:
  
  • Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)
  • I think you need to reiterate that Fury of the Wild is going to be changed to a power calculation instead of straight percentage increase. Being fully frank and forthright will be helpfull. Nothing changes in a vacuum.
    

---

This accomplishes a few goals:

1. DC based abilities² have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).
2. Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.
3. Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
4. Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.

Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!

I am already started to look at the combo's of this. Don't need to always have the bow equipped, do we? Paralyse, charge in, step back...

---

Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...
This. Yes. Moar. I like changes to the game that apply both to the abyss as well as to ourselves. It's an ability, it doesn't say its just a good guys only ability!

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)

---

^{P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!}

---

Mr replies in red. One day i'll figure out multi-quote. (first time useing advanced editor :P )

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vargouille

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon¹.

---

Arcane Archer

• Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank
• DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:
  
  • Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
  • Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
  • Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
  • Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
  • Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
  • Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
  • Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality¹ on each hit.
    
    • Pull of Reality¹: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).
  
  
• Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)
  
  • Increase base damage to 1d8.
  • Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
  • Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
  • Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
  • Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
  • Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower
  
  
• Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"
  
  
• Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Dexterity bonus increased to +4
  
  
• Slaying Arrow:
  
  • Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)

---

This accomplishes a few goals:

1. DC based abilities² have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).
2. Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.
3. Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
4. Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.

Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!

---

Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)

---

^{P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!}

---

You really need to give the capstone more attention than 2 extra dex. If you're leaving manyshot as is, then change the doubleshot to ranged power. Also make the imbuement give two or more stances full time instead of that super-annoying switch every 30 seconds.

I love the changes to elemental arrows, the hit die was unexpected but like that too. I was hoping for some more sources of passive ranged power; this being the premier archer tree. Mechanic has T5 Fletching (+3/6/10) and Reloader (+10), can AA have at least something similar? There is some ranged power in DWS, but's it's either T2 action boost with 30 seconds, or tied to a stance (T2 Impr. Archers Focus for +5RP) or at core 6 with Horizon shot (+20).

Be nice to see some Ranged Alacrity at high tiers.

I am another looking for solutions to the doubleshot penalty. Otherwise it's hard to add in any doubleshot bonuses into the tree.

Any chance of scaling summon arrows with cores, so we can have +2 to +5 arrows? (trying to adapt PnP enhance arrow).

Can I ask the Community --

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

As monkchers are mostly the only build with WIS as a main stat, having ONLY Wisdom is unfair to the class AA is made for. To satisfy multiple parties, the DCs should work like this:

Base DC+ Stat modifer that your bow's to-hit uses + the other bonuses

This way, three options are available for AA:
Int-based using Harper, to the boon of ARCANE casters
Dex-based using DWS' Improved Finesse/Elven Grace, for elven ____, and the ranger in general
Wis-based (maybe add enhancement that allows WIS to damage, possibly to-hit for pure ranger w/o ki compatability portion?), so the monkchers don't destroy the forums in rage at nerfs.


There's no reason it couldn't be coded, as assassins get the option of INT or DEX for their DCs.

I think that these changes are useful for Rangers by themselves.

But what about the RACIAL version of this tree? Is this going to be changed as well?


Oh, concerning the core abilities: I really, REALLY despise the bonuses to bow enhancement bonus that are specifically non-stacking. The reason being, the bonus becomes less and less useful as your character gets better and better bows. By time you reach epic levels, your character gets no benefit at all. I would suggest cutting the total bonus amount in half and making it completely stacking.

just let this work with all ranged combat styles please (aka Shuriken, I don't care about xbows they're way too OP now)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jakeelala

just let this work with all ranged combat styles please (aka Shuriken, I don't care about xbows they're way too OP now)

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The imbues are called ____ ARROWS for a reason. Darts and xbow bolts may be close enough to an arrow, but shuriken and the other throwers?

/Not signed

I think the changes look pretty good. Some of us would like to see rangers get a bonus to run speed. Could that be put in this tree in say tier 1? Also, will rangers be getting some sort of "spell" pass? Our spells could really use a boost, revamp, redue....:) Really enjoying my tempest/deepwood ranger!

Thanks

Overall, I think this is a really good start to the tree overhaul. I especially like the update to the level 18 core (I'm fine with crit updates instead of extra ranged power in the tree). The updates to the imbues are also a great move.

The suggestions regarding fletching and doubleshot penalty are great suggestions for the final version of AA, but I'm happy with this for an early version (assuming that AA will be updated twice). Clarification about Ranger AA vs. Elf AA would be appreciated.

Personally, I'm fine with WIS as the DC stat. It is the ranger casting stat, after all. Keeping it as the DC stat might make people choose very different archer builds (some might focus on WIS with AA, others might focus on INT with DWS and Harper).



On a separate note, thanks for working late on this Varg. You've posted on evenings and weekends, and I appreciate your dedication.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Assassination

I think the changes look pretty good. Some of us would like to see rangers get a bonus to run speed. Could that be put in this tree in say tier 1? Also, will rangers be getting some sort of "spell" pass? Our spells could really use a boost, revamp, redue....:) Really enjoying my tempest/deepwood ranger!

Thanks

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Does run speed need to be in the enhancement tree? Could it be a ranger feat, similar to Slow Fall for a Monk?

I think a spell pass needs to be larger than for just rangers. A spell pass for multiple classes (including Epic spells) is definitely needed in another update.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Apollos713

Does run speed need to be in the enhancement tree? Could it be a ranger feat, similar to Slow Fall for a Monk?

I think a spell pass needs to be larger than for just rangers. A spell pass for multiple classes (including Epic spells) is definitely needed in another update.

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Run speed could defenitely be a ranger spell, just redo longstrider....+1% run speed per level of ranger.... maybe spells are not so easy to redo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrWindupBird

Looks interesting. However: why no changes to manyshot and doubleshoot penalty? That needs to happen.

All the additions to doubleshot are meaningless without a change.

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This absolutely needs to happen.

Also, is double-shot working with all shots on a repeater WAI?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

[*]Slaying Arrow:
[*]Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)

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Will this continue to work with Adrenaline?

Will Fury eternal continue to regenerate adrenalines despite this being contradictory to what the description says?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Natashaelle

Can I ask the Community --

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

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I play a WIS based Sun Elf AA. We have access to the AA tree. I would like WIS included in the new AA offerings since I play Sun Elf AA (no monk).

We unlock the AA Enhancement Tree via Sun Elf Racial Enhancement Tree:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Sun_Elf

Arcane Archer: You gain access to the Arcane Archer enhancement tree. (The Elf: Arcane Archer tree uses your total character level instead of Ranger level, but advances Core Abilities at a slower rate. You cannot spend action points in both the Ranger: Arcane Archer and Elf: Arcane Archer trees.)

You need to click the Accept button before you can select the Arcane Archer (Elf) tree

Its Tier 3 and costs 4 AP to get.

1. Paralyzing DC will be fairly weak unless playing a monkcher. If that's the design goal, then it'll work perfectly with 10k.

2. I'd say just make those chances on the different arrow types 100%. I could see wanting an AA with smiting for some fights (DoJ end fight comes to mind) to increase party DPS, however, if they have a low chance of applying it'll take a long time to reach 25 stacks (Long being more than 10-15 seconds). and 10% movement speed and attack speed isn't much at all on paralyzing, which is fine because it's only on a save anyways.

3. Good luck getting elemental damage right. If I were doing it personally, I would make it something like possible 7d6 scaling with 100% spellpower while manyshotting, 400% while not. Otherwise it'll just be more extreme burst power that makes archers useful for the first 20 seconds of a boss fight.

4. +1 crit multiplier is very boring. At core 18 you can put in other powerful bonuses without risk of holy sword splashing, I'd say something more along the lines of core 18. granting a version of 10k stars thats on all the time related to wisdom or dexterity (multiselector). For example, maybe with 60 Dexterity (A decent number that can probably expected by most builds that focus on it) there is an obvious 100% chance of firing first arrow, a 80% chance of a second arrow, a 40% chance of a third arrow, and a 10% chance of a fourth arrow (I'm pulling these numbers based on what feels right, they could obviously be tweaked). Doubleshot would apply in order of arrows, so with 40% doubleshot the above build would have 100% chance of second arrow, 60% of third, 10% of fourth. If you really wanted to get fancy, manyshot, if you have this enhancement, could be changed (Again, only on having this enhancement) to provide a flat doubleshot bonus; this would give archers more of a sustainable damage option as opposed to being very limited bursters.

5. +4 dex isn't going to cut it. If you were to use something like my above idea, then maybe 20% doublestrike and 10 ranged power would be strong enough. In the current function of manyshot/10k stars though, doubleshot is fairly useless, because
a. You can't use doubleshot for a long time after using manyshot and
b. Doubleshot can at most provide double damage (If you have a 100% doubleshot build, which is likely impossible without zeal) while manyshot provides x4 damage, and 10k stars can typically provide 2.5x-3.5x average damage.

6. I'd say change arrow of slaying drastically. In its current implementation, it's best used alongside fury as an extreme damage spiker. Make it a multiselector for something along the lines of either
+100 damage, +15% chance of instakill on DC 35+Ranger Level +Wis/Dex mod (Purposefully very high DC, with 15% chance across 4 arrows it allows for a more controlled burst) or
+5 passive damage, +10 ranged power.

If you're basing things off of spellpower, perhaps add some into the tree itself? Attaching it to things like Shattermantle and Dispelling Shot could add some passive worth to those abilities, or add multiselectors at some point that allow you to focus more into your chosen element or generalize (Like +30 spellpower acid/cold/fire/electric, or +10 spellpower).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FedoraSire

The imbues are called ____ ARROWS for a reason. Darts and xbow bolts may be close enough to an arrow, but shuriken and the other throwers?

/Not signed

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It's how the game currently works. And since you're just imbuing your ammo for most of these effects, why does it matter if it's a bow or xbow or shuriken? Slayer Arrow works with Shuriken and Xbows now.

I like the DC based on Wisdom.

I like the dmg updated for elemental arrows.

I would rather seem slaying arrows add some amount of Ranged Power & spell power (for imbues, with a DC boost) as opposed to a base dmg amount. Like a mini adrenaline. Adrenaline an epic ability should not be worse than a heroic ability.

I am mixed as to whether this should work with throwers. But if they are excluded, make all the abilities not work; not some of them sometimes like they currently do.

I will skip the part where I describe how disappointed I am with this half-a$$ed pass. Can you really just not understand how to fix ranged combat? it has been how many years and how many different dev tems?

Anyway, back to the subject. Before the pass, I was interested only in Slayer arrow, paralyzing arrow, arcane arrows and morphic / metalline arrows.

Now, I am interested in Slayer arrow, elemental arrows and shadow arrows. Everything else drops off I am afraid. Despite the potential of the paralyze and terror arrows, the damage increase to elemental arrows may be too much to resist.

My question is for elemental arrows... will it scale with a spell power augment/item of the corresponding element, with spell power skill, with universal spell power, or all of these? Also, will Shiradi champion sonic damage scale with the perform skill version of spell power?

Will the paralyze, and terror arrows requirement for slayer arrows be removed?

I think it's a good start, but it's really hard to tell with it being a partial pass. My concern about doing it partway instead of all together is that it's hard to see what it needs from a cohesive standpoint. So you do part of it, people build for that, then changes are made later to balance the tree as a whole and people are (rightly) ticked off. I think it's asking for trouble, and I think it's hard for you guys to get decent feedback when we only have part of the picture.

I want my new stuff now just like everyone else, but I'd be willing to wait until we have a full idea of all the proposed AA changes, plus changes to manyshot, so we can actually do a proper pass.

BAsed on what we have, though, I'd say the following:

1. I like the changes to the DC stances and the elemental arrows. Will there be a change so that metamagics can affect these stances as well? Given that they will be affected by spellpower, this seems to be something that should happen.

2. I am happy with the crit multiplier, because it makes it possible to use either DWS/tempest for melee or hybrid and get the multiplier and threat range, or use DWS/AA for the same for a ranged build. Otherwise, a ranged build wouldn't be able to do that while investing heavily in AA, and that would leave AA far behind. I was hoping you would put that multiplier in there, so thank you.

3. Again, alacrity is a serious issue. I would like to see it show up in the AA tree. The RoF for ranged fighting is just too far behind everyone else, even with doubleshot.

4. Speaking of doubleshot, we really, really need to discuss manyshot now before changes are final. Manyshot penalties are killing non-monk ranged toons, and I don't feel pigeonholing builds is good for the game.

5. I agree wholeheartedly with adding a QoL change for arrow stacking and quivers. Please make arrows stack to 1000 in inventory like you guys did with thieves' tools. Also, if you could make it so we can hotbar quivers and switch quickly between them using just a click, that would go a long way towards making us very happy.

6. Adding some sort of fletching to the AA tree would be thematic. I like the ease of the conjured arrows, but at times it would be nice to be able to use and have returned the arrows I pick up along the way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon¹.

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Arcane Archer

• Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank
• DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:
  
  • Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
  • Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
  • Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
  • Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
  • Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
  • Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
  • Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality¹ on each hit.
    
    • Pull of Reality¹: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).
  
  
• Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)
  
  • Increase base damage to 1d8.
  • Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
  • Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
  • Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
  • Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
  • Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower
  
  
• Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"
  
  
• Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Dexterity bonus increased to +4
  
  
• Slaying Arrow:
  
  • Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)

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This accomplishes a few goals:

1. DC based abilities² have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).
2. Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.
3. Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
4. Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.

Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!

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Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)

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^{P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!}

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Soo, on lamannia this week?

I'm a little wary of the dc changes to the paralyzing and terror arrows. It says it includes enchantment bonuses to the dc. I'm going to assume this includes all things that would affect an enchantment spell? If so, if it were changed to use a stat like intelligence or dexterity where there is no real downside to maxing out that stat, you could reach dc's that are similar to what casters can reach with their enchantment spells. The problem is, these aren't special shots, they proc on every arrow fired. That could get pretty ridiculous.

Using wisdom for the dc does definitely favor monkchers, since they are the only archers that would have a good reason to max out their wisdom other than just trying to up the dc on these arrows. I really don't know what the right answer is. I know that the way they worked before basically left them with a 5% proc rate once monster save bands moved out of the range of the dc. That actually left them procing pretty regularly on a build with a high fire rate, like a monkcher.

The main problem with archers in general is their low rate of fire. I currently have a monkcher and a mechanic. Using the archer is just painful after using the mechanic. If it's not possible to change the way the animation works to achieve a higher rate of fire, allowing doubleshot to at least not be so heavily penalized by activating manyshot or 10k stars, could help. Not sure it should go completely away, but maybe it should.

If the doubleshot penalty goes completely away, monkchers will always be firing more arrows than any other archer. The only way this could be evened out is by putting things in that can't be reached by monkchers. This of course brings up the problem that even if you put large amounts of doubleshot in the upper cores, they can still be reached by accessing the elven version of AA.

A crazy idea i had was that they should remove the doubleshot penalty for manyshot, but leave it for 10k stars. That may sound unfair, but realistically, there are no bow users who are only using 10k and not also manyshot. Otherwise, you might just have to go so far as making the two abilities mutually exclusive, and removing all the doubleshot penalty.

When i played my monkcher which could get to the golden number of 56 wisdom, my estimate is that i was firing somewhere in the area of 2.5-2.75 arrows per shot on average. Always shot two, and shot three about half the time, and a fourth arrow occurred occasionally, but not often. It has a 30 second uptime and a 30 second cooldown. So 50% uptime. In a straight up comparison, isn't this just as good as manyshot, just spread out over time rather than concentrated in short bursts? Maybe monks and manyshotters need to go their separate ways for the sake of balance if not diversity.

just giving AA a small boost would do allot, and maybe working on how to get the different arrows to work better on hot bars from within quivers.
slayer shot seems fine as is. considering AA really only have 2 destinies to use maybe something special would be neat. just please don't break it.
maybe abit more ranged power?
AA from day 1.

Dispelling shot: x%/y%/x% Chance to cast Silence. Target cannot cast spells for n seconds.

Shattermantle shot: Reduces MRR by x/y/z for n/n/n seconds.

overall I like.

How will this work for the Elven version?

Are you going to drop the AP cost of shattermantle and dispelling shot to 1 each?

?and love the footnotes! Bwahahawahawa!

On EE AA bow builds are currently great burst dps but awful sustained dps compared to many other builds. The advantage in burst dps used to be huge but that gap has closed considerably and is no longer truly decisive. The gap in sustained dps though is positively huge.

Now, I applaud the direction taken to up the sustained dps for AA bow users. It will still be well behind many other builds including rogue mech ranged builds though but I think thats fine. However, that means that you really cannot lower the burst dps of the AA bow user because that would take the fun part out of the build as well as remove its one advantage. If you lower the burst (manyshot + slayer + adrenaline) you will be left with a build with no real advantage that has the disadvantage of lower sustained dps. Oh, and if you up the sustained dps to be competitive but lower the burst dps you are simply left with a close of the rogue mech and whats the point of making builds similar rather than different but equally powerful?

Also, the monkcher used to be hugely OP but thats certainly no longer the case so there is no reason to worry if that build gains some buffing from the AA pass as long as the ranger gets more, e.g. the level 18 core. More is needed though for the non-monk AA - in particular a removal of the doubleshot penalty for high level rangers.

So, kindly dont nerf slaying arrows or adrenaline, nor monkchers. You will be removing a build thats actually different from most other builds in how it plays yet certainly isnt top of the charts by any means overall (barb, pally, bard, tree, wolf, shuricannon, shiradi caster, warlock etc come to mind).

Finally, please acknowledge that bows are 2h weapons and add 2 augment slots that can hold red augments (TF bow, I am . In the light of the spell power change to elemental arrows that gets even more important.

Manyshot needs to be un-nerfed. The penalty was put in to try to balance monkchers who have *two* manyshots (kinda), the other one being 10k Stars. But the penalty is unfair for non-monkcher characters such as pure rangers. The penalty is so harsh that it is quite often a net loss in DPS over the course of a quest. Worse, the penalty gets harsher the higher your doubleshot is! If your doubleshot is normally 20%, then the penalty is effectively -20% to doubleshout; but if your doubleshot is normally 75%, then then penalty is effectively -75% to doubleshot; etc. The penalty also unfairly favors builds that normally melee but only switch to the bow for manyshotting. Those builds aren't really penalized at all; during the penalty period, they are meleeing. But for a full time archer the penalty really hits hard. There's just so much wrong with this.

Summary: Remove the penalty to manyshot. And make manyshot and 10k stars share a timer, like the description currently states. Monkcher problem eliminated.

This needs to be done now, not later, so that decisions about AA are balanced with the new state of manyshot in mind.

Thank you.

I like it! The idea to put some caster related things into Arcane Archer sounds great. Someday we may get some more Ranger spells and a WIS based AA with CC spells may get viable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dreppo

Manyshot needs to be un-nerfed.

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My guess: There will be a game mechanics update at some point to adress Manyshot/10k stars, holy sword crit range stacking, divine grace and some others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon¹.

Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

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AA *NEEDS* steady, sustained damage in the tree (which I guess means ranged power, or bow animations being redone the way repeaters were to function in the new higher-damage environment). You keep forgetting that Arcane Archer is a racial tree for elves and half-elves and that means any class can be an AA. Sticking all the steady damage in Deepwood Sniper and presuming AA's can afford to take extra feats for ranged power (because rangers get the core archery feats for free) cripples racial builds.

*ALL* a Racial build gets to help them out is Dex-to-Damage or up to 5 points of fake Bow Strength. If you spend 14 ap just to unlock something (plus 30-40-ish ap in the tree), and at least six feats (that aren't free for racial AA's), it should be viable.

PLEASE stop dismissing racial AA's when you make these changes.

Being AA the "caster" tree, I'm gonna ask this here aswell.

I've got it, you're not gonna add new spells, despite ranger clearly needs them.
The question is: why?

I mean, I really know how much time it takes for you, but you did it for other classes.
So why aren't you going to do this for the class that needs it more?

Interesting ideas. Some of them maybe even too strong :o
+7 possible dices of elemental damage scalling with spellpower on every shot is significant boost.
DC changes = WIS based archers could even pull out some decent CC this way and i can even imagine archer builds that takes Greater Focus Enchantment feat now.

I stay tuned and depending on the changes i consider Bow archer next life.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom116

Overall seems like a good start, but why base the DC of the special arrows on Wisdom? 20 + Wis Mod + Enchantment bonuses simply won't be high enough for epic elite unless you have Wis as your main stat, and even then it wouldn't be the best dc out there. I understand that it's a spammable ability, but to base it on Wisdom...the DC will be almost the same it is on live. If you used Dex mod instead, it would a much more viable form of CC. Assuming a decent dex (say, 50) it would be 20 + 20 + 6 (assuming 2 x SF: Enchant), and 46 isn't really a great DC for EE. It would work since it's applied to every arrow though, so at least it wouldn't be only functional when the mob rolls a 1.

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THIS IS WRONG sire. With this logic there could not be any working DC caster in whole game.
What you are forgetting is:
Spell focus Gear (imagine thunderforged Bow designed for AA)
Spell focus form Epic destinies(Magister twist easy to use)
Bard past life
Wizard past life
Other enhancement trees(bard, wizard multiclass, some racials gives +1 ench. etc...)

In reality WIS based AA that exploits all he can pull out 60+ DC this way.
Would it sacrifice alot (probably all) build choices for this and becomes gimped in other areas ? .... yeah probably but same is true for DC casters

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Arcane Archer


[*]DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:
[*]Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.[*]Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses[*]Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.[*]Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.

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Why a Wis Modifier?

Rangers DUMP Wis!

They have absolutely no use for it other than being able to cast Lvl 4 spells {14 required or 8 base, +6 item, 8 base, +2 tome, +2 ship buff, +2 insightful augment}.

This on the other hand won't help one bit with making Wis useful UNLESS it's MAXED!

Rangers can't afford to max Wisdom!


AA Silver Flame Clerics/Souls won't have the Feats to max out Enchantment DCs so will not be viable at End-Game!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

[*]Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.[*]Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower

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Spellpower?

WHAT Spellpower?

The ONLY Spellpower a Ranger should have is Devotion!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

• Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
• Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
• Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.

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Using Wisdom as the base stat for the arrow DC's gives major rewards to the one class that doesn't need any additional bonuses (Monkchers), and does a serious diservice to everyone else, especially to the class you're supposed to be helping, which I thought is the Dexterity based Arcane Archer.

Unless you are simply wanting to give even more power to Monkchers, this needs to be changed to Dexterity, not left as Wisdom. As has been mentioned earlier, most AA builds take only enough Wisdom to be able to use all their spells. That gives them plenty of spell points to function. The rest goes into Dexterity, which improves their evasion, and lets them use Dexterity to damage effectively. Or if they are using a pally/ranger splash, they use strength to damage, and again don't take much wisdom.

With respect to your second bullet above, what enchantment spells are you referring to? The arrow imbues? How exactly is this going to work? Do AA's now need to take enchantment focus to be effective? I certainly hope this is not the case.

Changing the AA's paralyzing arrows to very short duration seems like a step backwards. Will paralyzing bows be changed as well?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

• Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
• Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
• Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
• Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
• Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower

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Scales with spell power? Will AA's now need to have combustion/glaciation/corrosion/magnetism/impulse spellpower items in addition to their bows? There really isn't any room in their gear set for this, especially as most spellpower items are weapons, and they can only equip one weapon at a time. Just how exactly will this be accomplished?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

[*]Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

• Dexterity bonus increased to +4

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This is very disappointing. It is really weak compared to the other new trees, especially if wisdom is going to be used for the arrow imbue DC's. The capstones for Paladin, Barbarian, Mechanic Rogue, Warlock, DWS and Tempest are far stronger. And neither the DWS nor Tempest capstones are affected by the manyshot penalty.

Additional items that need to be addressed:

• Eliminate the manyshot penalty for AA's. Right now, taking the capstone is actually detrimental my AA's performance. This is pretty ridiculous.
• Add some decent ranged power.
• Make core increases to bow enhancement values stacking with bow values. Right now, these enhancements are useless once you get to the low epic levels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rehakp

THIS IS WRONG sire. With this logic there could not be any working DC caster in whole game.
What you are forgetting is:
Spell focus Gear (imagine thunderforged Bow designed for AA)
Spell focus form Epic destinies(Magister twist easy to use)
Bard past life
Wizard past life
Other enhancement trees(bard, wizard multiclass, some racials gives +1 ench. etc...)

In reality WIS based AA that exploits all he can pull out 60+ DC this way.
Would it sacrifice alot (probably all) build choices for this and becomes gimped in other areas ? .... yeah probably but same is true for DC casters

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No, it is NOT wrong. The DC based casters all use their primary stat for DC's. Wisdom is NOT an AA's primary stat, unless they're a Monkcher. The past life bonuses you mention are both active feats, not passive. Just which of the precious ranged feats needed to be a decent ranged build are you expecting us to give up? A thunderforged bow with spellcasting attributes will mean it can't have some very important damage attributes on it that are unimportant to a spellcaster, but are important to a ranged build. What about the brand new Epic Sapphire Sting, and all the other bows in the game? Will they now all become obsolete and useless because they don't provide spell focus? Last time I looked, we can't equip two bows at the same time.

Further, we have to wait till we hit level 26 to be able to use a thunderforged bow with spell focus on it. Not to mention the length of time needed to farm the necessary ingredients. And, a first life ranger starts in the Primal sphere. They have to work their way through the Martial Sphere (at least 2 destinies), then through Fatesinger, before they can even get to Magister. That's four destinies they have to work through before they can start building the Magister destiny.

Based on your approach, only multi-life, multi-class toons with full destinies should even consider being rangers. Or Monkchers. No one else need bother.

Few points off the top of my head.

I suspect the devs are aiming to make you choose between being good dps or crowd control with lower dps by forcing you to concentrate on wisdom to have the cc stances etc work. Which I think is fair enough.

Between Aa and DWS we can get +1 to both crit.multiplier and threat range which is a significant increase, plus what looks like substantial increase in damage from elemental or force arrows. So in AA id say its a choice between focusing on the special stances or focusing on elemental damage.

How good the elemental damage is depends on the scaling, but even at 100% it would be possibly up to 14d8 damage if I read it right with just 100 spellpower? And there are plenty of items that give spellpower boosts for various elements and most named bows have a red augment as well, so I don't think getting a reasonable amount of spellpower would be that difficult

With regards to requests for speed increases for ranger I don't think that its a good idea, as it is a ranger can avoid most damage by virtue of attacking at range and kiting if needs be. Increasing their speed to a point where they can simply outrun most mobs would possibly make life a little too easy for them especially when combined with the dps increase and cc elements.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CeltEireson

Few points off the top of my head.

I suspect the devs are aiming to make you choose between being good dps or crowd control with lower dps by forcing you to concentrate on wisdom to have the cc stances etc work. Which I think is fair enough.

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If you're in a Group there's a very good chance someone else will be providing the Crowd Control!

If you're soloing Arrow based CC just means taking double the time to get a completion {Because your DPS is super low!}.


Many classes now have high DPS AND good CC abilities - Why should AA be the one that has to pick between the two?



And it's not JUST concentrating on Wisdom - You will need TWO Feats!


As someone else has already pointed out this is clearly going to be massive for Monkchers but will HINDER Rangers! {Why don't the Devs just have done with it and move AA to Monk as that's clearly what they want!}.



BTW There's a simple solution to the Monkcher dilemma AND to the perceived OPness of Palarangers too:
Make Rangers unable to be Lawful! - They're nature lovers anyway and tend to loathe civilization!

Terror, Paralyzing
I think you should ditch the DCs on these abilities. Between Manyshot vs Manyshot downtime and Monkcher vs non-Monkcher, you're never going to get to a good spot with DCs; they will slingshot from OP to UP and back again. These would really be best off as active abilities that have no save (like Otto's Whistler), which would nullify the effect manyshot/10k has on them and give you a lot more balancing control.


Banishing, and Smiting
I'm uncertain how the DC for these would even work. Are they losing the "on vorpal" to instead be "on a failed save"? Or is the DC being added to the current on-vorpal effect to bypass the 1k HP limitation?

If the saves stay, I think they should be based on max(IntMod, ChaMod) rather than WisMod. This is Arcane Archer after all, and in PnP AA's are required to have levels in an arcane class which would be either Int or Cha based.



Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)
This on-arrow damage is just going to exacerbate issues with Manyshot. I would rather see:
* tier1 grant you all 4 of the elemental arrow stances @1d6 damage. Spellpower scaling is OK, though perhaps not worth the effort to code.
* tier2 becomes Force Arrows (changes places and becomes part of the dependency chain)
* tier3 grants you Improved Elemental Arrows
* tier4 grants you Arcane Arrows, a DDO version of PnP Imbue Arrow (arcane spell procs added to your shot). It gives you all of: Fireball Arrow (static caster-level of 7), Chain Lightning Arrow (cl 5), Acid Rain Arrow (cl 10), Cone of Cold Arrow (cl 8), Chain Missile Arrow (cl 6).

* These would each be active ability shots, not stances. When your shot hits something, the relevant spell has a 100% proc rate to be produced at the specified caster level.
* These procs would of course be affected by spellpower, and hopefully would also be able to accept Maximize and Empower metamagics.
* Each of these abilities would have an individual cooldown of around 12-15 seconds and share a common "global" cooldown of around 4-5 seconds (encouraging a rotation).
* Each of these abilities would cost a handful of SP. Due to their low, static caster levels, a low cost should be OK even considering the impact of IPS.
* I'm uncertain how the DCs should be handled. How is the DC on sunburst in shiradi handled?
* It will finally be possible to have a very strong AA Shiradi
* Using manyshot or 10k stars will put each of these abilities on cooldown for a number of seconds equal to that buff's duration. The idea is to add sustained DPS to AA's with these abilities, without contributing to the alpha issue.

* tier5 grants you Hail of Arrows (pretty much as per PnP), an active ability that fires one arrow at every enemy within your PBS range (to a max of 50 meters, to account for the DWS capstone). Due to it's chain-missile-like nature, it should inherently not work at all with manyshot or 10k, once again giving AA's more sustainable DPS against crowds without exacerbating the burst issue.


I realize these ideas don't fit your goal for a "quick'n'dirty" phase 1 pass, but I would really not like to see any more power added to manyshot. That ability has been breaking dedicated archers since forever, and buffing it is only going to break them more. Anything you add/buff should categorically not function with manyshot, and exist solely in the "sustained DPS" category.



Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger): Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"
Not to sound like a broken record, but this again will strongly benefit manyshot and I think you should do something else. Buffing the +double shot on the stance should be fine, since that doesn't work with manyshot. Perhaps add to this core: "Your manyshot ability no longer inflicts a penalty to double shot after using it."


One last suggestion, for core1: the enhancement bonus it offers is pretty useless. I think you should change this to a passive +1% double shot per core.

I found that the AA imbues made sense when switching back and forth with throwers. My dex-based halfling monk/ranger/rogue would manyshot with arrows and then utilize shurikens for rapid CC debuffs. So I think there needs to be explicit clarification whether or not AA should affect throwers. I am fine either way since I TR'd anyway...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mikarddo

Finally, please acknowledge that bows are 2h weapons and add 2 augment slots that can hold red augments (TF bow, I am . In the light of the spell power change to elemental arrows that gets even more important.

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This. Definitely. TWF gets two slots so should bows.

Also, I am not understanding the uproar about using the wisdom mod for paralyzing. You can now max dex, ignore str, in, char, put a decent amount into con and dump into wis. Using that method I am still at 40 wis or so at lvl 28. and either 58 or 64 dex depending on which ED I am in and just at or over 1000 hps. So, 40 wis would be 20+15+ band immaterial (+6) and whatever other spell focus enchantment feats you take... so like 41 being a conservative estimate? That is higher than that? Better than the original 37. Also, you can craft a enchantment focus bow instead of paralyze at tier 2.

I plan on going the elemental arrows route, but need clarification on exactly what sources of spell power will boost it.

These look like the start of some great changes to my Ranger AA Brothers & Sisters out there.

1. Casting Attribute on Terror / Paralyzing etc...
As much as Wisdom is the Ranger casting attribute, isn't this further playing into the hands of Monkchers instead of Pure Rangers?

Charisma could be option - it has tiny, woeful precedent with Wild Empathy after all. I'm not entirely sure how Dexterity fits into being a Casting Attribute, but I can see the argument for a Dex alternative as well from a game mechanics point of view.

2. Paralyzing Arrows
I like the on-save addition, but it would be further cool if this on-save effect stacked up to 5 times.

3. Dispelling Arrow
This is ripe for being a nice AoE Debuff arrow instead, with the following suggestion:

"Mindsnare Shot - Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged AOE attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all targets. Each target in the Area of Effect suffers Silence and Slow for 15s on a failed save. Each effect must be saved separately, with save being calculated at DC20 +Wisdom Modifier +Enchantment Spell Bonuses. 5SP, 30s Cooldown"

4. Shattermantle Arrow
Again, why not change this to be a general DoT/Debuff arrow instead? Say:

"Soulshatter Arrow - Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all targets. In addition, inflicts 2D6 Force damage every 2s for 15s and reduces the targets Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves by 1. The effect stacks upto 3 times, and is affected by your Force Spell power. 5SP, 10s Cooldown"

5. Smiting Arrows & Banishing Arrows
These feel a bit meh still. The extra effects are nice for a long Boss battle, but certainly not what I'd prefer as a Primary Arrow imbue .

6. Manyshot & Doubleshot Penalties
Can we address current thinking on these Elephants in the room, please? I'd be interested to see why I should go pure Ranger 20 as a full time Archer over using a Monk / Ranger multi-class that has access to the full AA tree through a Racial enhancement.

12 Ranger / 6 Monk still seems like a given, tbh. On that thought, why not give Rangers (new granted Class Feat?) or AAs access to a 10Kstars ability that only affects bows and shares a cooldown with 10Kstars?

7. Dodge & Run speed
I was hoping to see some potential low hanging fruit in terms of Dodge or Run speed in this tree, since it didn't make it into Tempest or DWS, and on reflection I think it makes more sense for it to be in this tree somewhere?

8. Bows & Spell Power
I second (third?) the notion that some named Bows should get two (red!) Augment slots, instead of just one.

9. Items
Any chance Rangers are going to get some class-related item love soon? A named Scimitar and Longbow could be funky.

My two cents on this:

- Wisdom based saves: I don't like it, I see no sinergy between the damage I put into the weapon with my primary stat and this one. If you don't want to create a DC monster, simply put a 50% chance of deal the arrow effect or just leave an always-to-apply effect (a softer version, I guess). However, I should test the real DCs in EE content with a normal set of features and equipment to be sure about your proposal.

- Elemental damage scaling: Seems awesome, I'm eager to test it.

[edit] Nevermind. Someday I will learn to read. Not today, apparently.

1) I don't think that Pull of Reality is powerful enough to require it to lose 5 stacks per 3 seconds. Compare it to 'Vulnerability'.

2) Yes, please let some outerplanar monsters use this debuff! More monsters need to do more than just damage.

This AA pass seems to be more focused on imbues, DCs and bow damage improvements. I like how Vargouille talks about lore. Finally getting to the devs? :)

Btw, ranger spells.

I have to say, this changes are...well..they are awesome.Spellpower instead of ranged power, actual WIS based CC i totally did not expect that.
Please ignore all people asking for the change in the DC calculations from WIS to any other stat, first of all its the divine DC casting stat and the casting stat for rangers, second, lets be honest, WIS characters have been neglected for far too long.
Now with a racial AA using WIS for CC a number of previously flavor builds become much more viable, AA cleric, AA fvs, AA Druid, even AA pure monk would work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arlathen

3. Dispelling Arrow
This is ripe for being a nice AoE Debuff arrow instead, with the following suggestion:

"Mindsnare Shot - Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged AOE attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all targets. Each target in the Area of Effect suffers Silence and Slow for 15s on a failed save. Each effect must be saved separately, with save being calculated at DC20 +Wisdom Modifier +Enchantment Spell Bonuses. 5SP, 30s Cooldown"

4. Shattermantle Arrow
Again, why not change this to be a general DoT/Debuff arrow instead? Say:

"Soulshatter Arrow - Ranged Archery Attack: Performs a ranged attack that deals +1/+2/+3[W] damage to all targets. In addition, inflicts 2D6 Force damage every 2s for 15s and reduces the targets Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves by 1. The effect stacks upto 3 times, and is affected by your Force Spell power. 5SP, 10s Cooldown"

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Great ideas!

1-As a player really fan of bows from the beginning and im not fan of do specialized trees for only one weapon but i think we need a tree facing "bows" because the nerfs applied the thrown weapons also had an effect on the arches and there is already the tree Ninja Spy with a good support to trowing weapons and Mecanic to missile weapons.
2-Nice change doing spell power to the elemental arrow.And if u dont have spell power the adicional damage keeps almost the same or even better.
3-really need the status to damage skill, since most of the ranged specialized classes have it.And the best of the options a multi selector choise(Dex,Wis,Int).
4-I really would love to see AA using some arcane magic like Fireball Arrow,Chain Lightning Arrow,Acid Rain Arrow,frost lance Arrow,Magic Missile Arrow in a small percentage chance on each arrow.
5-A adicional +[w] and +%AttSpeed damage with bows ... as compared to the repeaters/gxbows of mechanical bows seem pillows.+40% Ranged Alacrity with non-repeating crossbows."Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 3 Sneak Attack dice and also gain +2[W]. Great Crossbows now vorpal on a 19-20" seens a loot more OP then a 20s skill who have only 1 combo on all game(fury shot) and a insane a penalty for more then 1 min,who insanely stake with the penalty given by 10tz giving -200% of double shot.(i inderestand the extra dice damage but...why...why...why greaterxbows are soo ******** fast then bows...If fury shot break the game balance ...take it, because as someone who likes bows I still prefer to see good gameplay with bows than an entire skill nerfed for a skill used with shurikens).
6-Give us vorpal too...or do something like vorpal arrow.
7-Really "Horizon Shot" give 20 melee/ranged power and "Mystical Archer/Master of Imbuement" give %attspeed who selfnerf if you use manyshots?

Thought I saw some one complain about having to give up proc effects on a Thunderforged bow to put elemental spell power on it for Elemental Arrows. Can't find the post now but here is math to compare 150 spell power vs the other Thunderforged effects.


1st Degree Burns: 5d6 Fire, and Vulnerable, 5*3.5 = 17.5 avg damage per hit, and vulnerable which only maters if no one else is putting it on.

Touch of Flames: 10d6 Fire. 10*3.5 = 35 avg damage.


Elemental Arrows + Dwarvencrft Elemental Spell Power 7d8 scaling with 100% spell power. 7*4.5 = 31.5 base
let x be spell power not from Dwarvencraft effect.
31.5(100+x+150)/100 = 31.5 + 0.315x + 47.25

47.25 extra damage from the 150 spell power that's better then Touch of Flames and better then 1st degree burns if with out the vulnerability part which you can let some one else handle and isn't as good against trash. IMO 150 Spell power is competitive in this instance. 47.25 avg damage is roughly 13.5d6

Why only Wisdom Modifier? should it not be wisdom and dexterity as they are the states you can take in the tree?

Well if it stays only wisdom modifier, think ill just stick with the elemental arrows in epics.

Also Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

• Dexterity bonus increased to +4

That is so weak to the other two enhancement trees. Also if your forcing arrow DC to wisdom should this not be +4 bonus to wisdom and dex? Also why no Ranged Power?

Seriously? Wisdom as a primary stat? Are you deliberately trying to make people play monkchers as the only viable longbow class? This is, by far, the most disgusting thing I've ever heard you guys come up with. There's no excuse for this. Words simply cannot express my irritation, right now.

Are you deliberately trying to make me quit DDO?

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrWindupBird

Looks interesting. However: why no changes to manyshot and doubleshoot penalty? That needs to happen.

All the additions to doubleshot are meaningless without a change.

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Its just a partial pass that they don't want to wait to put in. More is coming.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Enoach

First I'm coming from the perspective of Elf to access AA and not Ranger.

• Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses

I personally enjoy a 12/8 Elf Fighter/Wizard. My primary attribute is Dexterity. While I don't ignore wisdom I'm trying to understand why Dexterity Modifier is not an OR option. To me Dexterity works well especially with Elf and leveraging Grace's Dexterity to Damage.

I understand that wisdom is a recommended attribute for Rangers but most builds only go for enough wisdom to meet spell level which is needing to hit 14.

Also the fact that most Arcane classes are either Intelligence based or Charisma based.

I would like to ask if possible to allow this to be the highest of Wisdom/Dexterity/Intelligence/Charisma.

This would open up more build options for the AA tree as well as remove the advantage a Monk AA build would have over other builds.

I do understand that Wizard AA builds do get an advantage with access to a Spell Focus Feat(s) so that might also need to be considered.

==============================
I like the elemental arrow direction - especially the spell power part, may even consider these with this type of change.

==============================
As pointed out by another poster. Are we going to see a change in the Doubleshot penalty from Manyshot/10K Stars?

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I think WISDOM is the right call for the DC in the ranger version of the tree. If you come into the tree from Elf, I think it should be an INT/CHA version.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by serthcore

18 Levels of Ranger, or elf / high elf i assume?

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Actually, if they put it only in the ranger version it prevents monchers from getting it. I'd like to see this sort of differentiation between the two AA trees.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Natashaelle

Can I ask the Community --

What are your ideas about how these broad principles should vary between Ranger AA and Elf AA ?

Should focus and abilities be very different between the two, identical, or simply variant ?

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Some things the same, but definitely different. I think the elf one should be more magic focused and the ranger one be based more on physical stuff.
Another way to do it would be to make them Arcane Archer and "Ranger" Archer (I need a better word.) I.e. Arcane Archer has things that come from arcane spells like arrows of holding. Ranger would have Snare Arrows. Arcane archer would have a banish and the ranger version would do bane damage to creature un-"Natural" to this plane. Stuff like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FedoraSire

As monkchers are mostly the only build with WIS as a main stat, having ONLY Wisdom is unfair to the class AA is made for. To satisfy multiple parties, the DCs should work like this:

Base DC+ Stat modifer that your bow's to-hit uses + the other bonuses

This way, three options are available for AA:
Int-based using Harper, to the boon of ARCANE casters
Dex-based using DWS' Improved Finesse/Elven Grace, for elven ____, and the ranger in general
Wis-based (maybe add enhancement that allows WIS to damage, possibly to-hit for pure ranger w/o ki compatability portion?), so the monkchers don't destroy the forums in rage at nerfs.


There's no reason it couldn't be coded, as assassins get the option of INT or DEX for their DCs.

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I think DEX is the wrong stat for the DCs. At the same time, I think the elf version should use INT/CHA (arcane stats) and the ranger version should use WIS (ranger stat).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

Why a Wis Modifier?

Rangers DUMP Wis!

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Make a choice. I don't think every class / build / tree should be able to do everything. That some have been allowed to do so is a mistake. Maybe they are going to start fixing that, but if we continue to drive them to make all builds "Master of all Trades" then it will be our own fault.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

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Bingo!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

Thought I saw some one complain about having to give up proc effects on a Thunderforged bow to put elemental spell power on it for Elemental Arrows. Can't find the post now but here is math to compare 150 spell power vs the other Thunderforged effects.


1st Degree Burns: 5d6 Fire, and Vulnerable, 5*3.5 = 17.5 avg damage per hit, and vulnerable which only maters if no one else is putting it on.

Touch of Flames: 10d6 Fire. 10*3.5 = 35 avg damage.


Elemental Arrows + Dwarvencrft Elemental Spell Power 7d8 scaling with 100% spell power. 7*4.5 = 31.5 base
let x be spell power not from Dwarvencraft effect.
31.5(100+x+150)/100 = 31.5 + 0.315x + 47.25

47.25 extra damage from the 150 spell power that's better then Touch of Flames and better then 1st degree burns if with out the vulnerability part which you can let some one else handle and isn't as good against trash. IMO 150 Spell power is competitive in this instance. 47.25 avg damage is roughly 13.5d6

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I think you are referring to my statement of giving up paralyzing on Tier 2 TF for elemental damage. It was not a complaint, but rather an observation/theory craft of how things would go. So, it looks like it will be the way. Also jumbled up in that statement was the ask for a second red slot on bows to compare with other 2 handed weapons. Or, maybe a red slot in a quiver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

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Hi,

Usually I find myself agreeing with you, but:

These abilities aren't spells, so there's no reason to tie them to a non core stat for the sake of 'consistency'.

Using WIS instead of DEX hands more power to monkchers. That build is already doing quite well from this enhancement pass because of its higher RoF. More projectiles means more damage per time unit from the imbues, and using WIS as the basis for DC amounts to a double reward.

Using DEX as the basis for the DC would be a way for pure DEX builds to be better than monk splashes in one area. If you're uncomfortable with that, then other solutions includes using the better of DEX or WIS (not my preferred option, but better than WIS alone), or using something else, like ranger class levels.

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

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Incorrect.

Arcane Archers are INT based. They are Arcane. The DC should be INT-based as well.

And now you need wisdom too?

Well my AA build is totally killed. Repeter rangers are gonna suffer a lot. Reduced stun timers will kill switching weapons after stunning stuff.

I DON'T WANT TO PLAY MONKCHER!

Give this tree +4 wis in the end on top of the dex, and make the stances work with bolts. If you nerf slayer arrow, AA will be left unused. You already are nerfing the stun arrows hardcore, and since there are only 3 abilities that anyone cares about in AA (Conjure Arrows, Paralyzing Arrows, and slayer arrow). Asking us to invest into Wis on top of it is just bad, since you can't hit any DC's in this game without absolutely maxing the stat.

Also change the Doubleshot bonus to something else. Manyshot makes it absolutely worthless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

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Absolutely agree. WIS is the right stat, and can make AA archers a different type of build from DWS archers.

It occurs to me that there are more than a few abilities that can be tied to more than one stat. Most ED abilities, for one.

How about a choice of INT or WIS? Or INT, WIS or DEX?



Geez people, why do you all rage about the smallest things? Suggesting an alternative is much more useful than raging.

Finally a sane update to a tree. I don't think too much power was added.

1. Updating paralyzing/terror/banishing arrows was a good thing. Using WIS as the DC stat is the right choice since it forces the players to make a meaningful hard CHOICE (how many years have we had since one of THOSE were introduced?). And it is still viable without max WIS. Since arrows get spammed, 1 in 20 arrows will succeed in paralyzing or terrorizing the enemy for 6 seconds. So, it's still better than the initial paralyzing that would work 5% of the time and paralyze for 3 seconds. And then if someone wants to make this ability work more often, he can make the DC go to 50 (20 + 20 WIS mod + 4 AA enhancements + 3 item + 3 feats) and work more than once per 20 shots. The difference between this ability and DC casting is that casting takes time and sp, while this ability is spammable. So, a spell landing 100% of the time is equivalent to an arrow landing 5% of the time. (19 difference in DCs)

2. Elemental arrows are updated (yay). Good call to scale with spell power. Another effect the archer should slot in his gear, another choice.

3. Good call to not update dispelling arrows. Currently, dispelling arrows also remove debuffs from the monsters. That makes them unusable when the party has stacked some debufs on them (or you have used inferno shot to stack fire damage which gets removed by dispel shots). Probably a good idea to revamp dispel altogether before this change. Don't forget to write that down in the documentation about the AA pass so future developers will be able to see that something is incomplete.

The bad:

4. WIS is the main stat of monkchers making this build even more powerful. Isn't it about time you prevented 10k stars to not work with manyshot or not work with bows and arrows and instead work with shurikens? The monks getting more out of the arrow DCs is a good thing (choices choices). However, the 2 other abilities were broken to begin with.

5. Isn't it about time you removed the doubleshot penalty (or most of it) for pure rangers? How about (as already suggested) you reduce the penalty to -30% or -40% in the AA capstone?

Overall, this tree needs the choice of what arrows to use against certain enemies (something that had eclipsed from DDO - everyone uses a main weapon against everything), it provides CC for some interesting play (if only deepwood had some more interesting choices...) and does not have too much damage (at least I didn't see anywhere increases to ranged power/extra bow damage/extra bow dice).
Good pass.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Apollos713

Absolutely agree. WIS is the right stat, and can make AA archers a different type of build from DWS archers.

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Yea, of course...DEX is alredy favored on other ranger trees, and INT isnt even a stat for ranger, wis IS the obvious choice.If youre not using high wis theres elemental stances to use instead wich got a HUGE boost, people are failing to see that.
IF the devs are open to allow a multiselector between dex/wis or best of dex/wis then i'd agree, but replacing WIS with another stat would be completly stupid, for reasons i mentioned before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Spekdah_NZ

I am another looking for solutions to the doubleshot penalty. Otherwise it's hard to add in any doubleshot bonuses into the tree.

Any chance of scaling summon arrows with cores, so we can have +2 to +5 arrows? (trying to adapt PnP enhance arrow).

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Yeah, without a solution to the double shot penalty for rangers the capstone is weak. With no double shot penalty capstone is reasonable.

The scaling of arrows is not really any use past low levels as its only the higher of bow enhancement bonus or arrows that counts and most epic bows are in the range +5 - +12.

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

If the goal is to make monkchers better... Success. If the goal was to make a viable ranger tree you have some work to do. As much as I can see the argument for wisdom based dc abilities most people will go dex for their primary stat through dws and for more reflex save. Wisdom based just overly complicates things. So does scaling the imbues with spell power and not ranged power. The capstone needs some help something like advanced ninja training; extra arrows based off your dex score would help the ranger version of the tree tremendously.

Now if you want to have wisdom/intelligence based abilities and scaling imbues based off spell power in the elf version of the tree I would be all for that.

The ranger version of the tree needs to synergize with the other two ranger trees.

Hi,

The other elephant in the room for archery is manyshot + slayer arrow + adrenaline from FOTW.

One interesting way to promote some diversity in archer builds might be to split the slayer arrow ability into a choice of two things. When you select that enhancement, you get one or the other of two options, but not both.

Option A is the slayer arrow we have now. Left as is for those who like their burst DPS.

Option B adds a lot of doubleshot and reduces or removes the doubleshot penalty after manyshot. This option would cater for people who want to use their bows 24/7 and prefer more even damage output and more proc chances over big burst damage.

Math types can plug in the values for slayer arrow damage and doubleshot bonus so that neither one of the two styles gets ahead. I'd also like to suggest that there be a doubleshot penalty be added after 10k stars so that there's some parity between monk and non monk builds.

Thanks.

Edit: Didn't see Severlin's post when I wrote this. Could still be useful anyway.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

Thought I saw some one complain about having to give up proc effects on a Thunderforged bow to put elemental spell power on it for Elemental Arrows. Can't find the post now but here is math to compare 150 spell power vs the other Thunderforged effects.


1st Degree Burns: 5d6 Fire, and Vulnerable, 5*3.5 = 17.5 avg damage per hit, and vulnerable which only maters if no one else is putting it on.

Touch of Flames: 10d6 Fire. 10*3.5 = 35 avg damage.


Elemental Arrows + Dwarvencrft Elemental Spell Power 7d8 scaling with 100% spell power. 7*4.5 = 31.5 base
let x be spell power not from Dwarvencraft effect.
31.5(100+x+150)/100 = 31.5 + 0.315x + 47.25

47.25 extra damage from the 150 spell power that's better then Touch of Flames and better then 1st degree burns if with out the vulnerability part which you can let some one else handle and isn't as good against trash. IMO 150 Spell power is competitive in this instance. 47.25 avg damage is roughly 13.5d6

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Other 2h TF weapons get to pick all 3 tiers of effects AND get two red slots. Bows get 3 tiers + 1 red slot. Its really a no-brainer that Bows as 2h weapons should get 2 red slots. As for what to actually slot in the 3 tiers and the 2 red slots - thats a different matter but it has no real bearing on Bows needing another red slot.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Severlin

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

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• Is the cooldown on these abilities changing?
• Can Doubleshot go above 100% to provide a third arrow or more?

Would love to comment on this, but these are really important points when considering these changes.

Edit: Thanks for teasing these changes, there very relevant to the ranged players out there.

People talk about monkchers, but I don't see all that many of those these days...

Think tying the Dc of banish/smite/para arrows to wisdom is a bad idea, as it rewards monkchers too much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon¹.

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Arcane Archer

• Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank - good and common pass adjustment.
• DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:
  
  • Each becomes one rank, 2 AP. - good ap reduction.
  • Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses - being that rangers are well rangers not casters, this is a common problem with the class and related spells. wisdom mod will be in the single digits and enhancement bonus will be limited on related gear, etc. i'd suggest 20 + Ranger level + wisdom mod + enchantment bonus if you don't want to use dex. yes moncher haters, this will boost monchers a bit but seriously dc's in epic are more than 50s that you obtain here anyway. if you want this to be useful, you need to add more to it somehow.
    
  • Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
    why not evocation or a blanket to all spells which would help the useless ranger dc spells? that seems more in line with the class. i'm not charming monsters with my arrows or even hypnotizing? Is there any enchantment spell class on the tree? yes they are enchanting arrows but to do spell effects that hurt more or do other spell scoll effects.
    
  • Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
    
    boooo but whatever, it's still hardly going to work for a ranger in epics.
    
  • Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
    
    good addition, a -1 to enchantment save would be nice if you insist on keeping the saving throw enchantment.
    
  • Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
    interesting
    
  • Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality¹ on each hit.
    
    • Pull of Reality¹: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).
    
    
    interesting...
  
  
• Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)
  
  • Increase base damage to 1d8.
  • Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
  • Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
  • Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
  • Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
  • Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower
  
  
  good change here, these were always too costly for minimal useage since only one could be active at a time. will the force arrows tier up by +1 or 2 die too?
  
• Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"
  
  
  excellent. although since level 18, could be both threat and damage. keeps this out of moncher discussion which is good.
  
• Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Dexterity bonus increased to +4
  
  
  appropriate but without manyshot changes the 20% doubleshot is less than it seems. 10k should have the penalty, manyshot shouldn't. put both on the same timer if you need to.
  
• Slaying Arrow:
  
  • Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)
  
  touching slayer arrow weakens ranger greatly with lesser arrows not working in epics. (changes above aren't sufficient to make dc's work in epics) and after 3 lives in primal, what then. if this is reduced then some other buffs to the tree are needed to keep ranged combat viable.
  

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This accomplishes a few goals:

1. DC based abilities² have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).
   
   rework per ranger level or a stat the class uses. dex, int would be appropriate. maybe cha
   
2. Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.
   
   good move
   
3. Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
4. Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.

how are you helping the ranger spells? wisdom based does not help damage or to hit unless your monk. those spells snare, etc need a revamp to add ranger level into the dc and account for the bonus your providing here. that will make them useful, i would hope. saved in epic are into the 50-60s? how do you see a ranger building for this and maintaining a viable dex?

Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!

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Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)

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^{P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!}

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see some notes in the original note above.

Too little for the poor archers. In heroic it's fine, if not a slow and agonizing combat style. Some alaracy would be nice higher in the tree to make it feel like action not pew....pew... pew... while rogue artificers are running around going pew.pew.pew...pew.pew.pew...pew.pew.pew in the same time. attack speed needs a boost. the crit range is still pityful compared to melee so a speed boost seems still ok here. much like crossbows got. bows can shoot faster in real life than a crossbow as was the original intent of pen and paper speeds of the weapons. somehow it morf'd in ddo to make crossbows king with uber crit ranges and speed.

the problem still related to not buffing monchers too much at the same time. put caps for the buff tied to ranger level. ie core adds 1 enchangement to the weapon (does not stack) what use is this with epic bows being +6 or more???. change to adds 3% alaracy ranged and 3 range power per core tier capped at ranger level or dex bonus

yes archery is safer but when you agro something and the tank can't pull it back, it's run straight at you and splat your dead as you can't cc or kill 10k mob in epic. if your the first to shoot before melee gets agro... good luck kiting. not saying this is not possible, but outside of the 7 furyshots you have how can you go any reasonable dps to kill something chasing you? some sla spells like -25% damage bubble like arty would be nice.

spells see above... need some +ranger level love

defense - cores are weak especially since you can't use all at once. add some passive mage like ability to each. core 2 - add 5 prr/mrr to leather armor or haste as sla, core 3 add globe of inv as sla core 4 add prr/mrr on his for 5 sec capped at ranger level. core 5 adds blur as sla core 6 adds 5 prr/mrr capstone adds 10% dodge or displacement as a sla or something defensive like displacement.

+1/2 die increases for the elementals - i like it as it fixes the limited usefulness of taking all 4.

main issue is the doublestrike penalty hurting rangers more than monchers which it seems it was intended for. it needs to move to 10k only or be removed. why would builds that favor doublestrike and never use manyshot be better than a normal class ability? you shouldn't want to negate a powerful abillity for rangers like that. make both to mutually exclusive toggle that gives ranger double shot and 10k gives monks some extra arrows at a longer interval but never turns off. so you get a bonus for using but can't use both at once. no? want that burst dps? then timers that impact both. no? want to keep that moncher build uber? then add in bonus to double shot at higher levels. ie 1% per ranger level at different cores so the doubleshot penalty can be overcome for rangers only.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by geoffhanna

Incorrect.

Arcane Archers are INT based. They are Arcane. The DC should be INT-based as well.

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I can get behind Int or Cha based but making it Dex bothers me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arlathen

• Is the cooldown on these abilities changing?
• Can Doubleshot go above 100% to provide a third arrow or more?

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Hi,

These are really good questions, and I would also like to see an answer to them.

The justification that large numbers of projectiles is costly of server resources is an interesting assertion too. Is manyshot in its current form that much more demanding than constant repeating crossbow fire?

Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mryal

Yea, of course...DEX is alredy favored on other ranger trees, and INT isnt even a stat for ranger, wis IS the obvious choice.If youre not using high wis theres elemental stances to use instead wich got a HUGE boost, people are failing to see that.
IF the devs are open to allow a multiselector between dex/wis or best of dex/wis then i'd agree, but replacing WIS with another stat would be completly stupid, for reasons i mentioned before.

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Ignoring for the moment the issue of elven racial AA. Given the current formula dex would be too strong, certainly for the paralysis one - it would be okay it was a single shot affair with a timer but as a stance I don't think it would work. With a little work you'd be able to get DCs into the 70s and given that they have to make a save against every single arrow, including doubleshots I assume even mobs on high epic elite would be failing regularly - compare that to how often a mage is able to cast crowd control. Even if you don't make any investment at all 1 in 20 times a mob will fail the save and be guaranteed to be paralysed for 6 seconds.

But as someone pointed out the problem is that getting a 'correct' DC for effects like this is very difficult - most times it will either underpowered or overpowered, especially as sooner or later someone will figure out a way to get practically no fail DCs. Thinking about it I think it would be better off with just a small chance to proc rather than DC based. or a single shot with a timer and higher DC. But if you allow other stats to apply rather than wisdom I think you need to look at the formula again.

And of course theres the issue of monkchers - not sure how this one would go to be honest - yes wisdom is their primary attribute so if you go down the route of wisdom as the stat for DCs they benefit a lot from it. On the other hand unless they go 18 ranger they're losing damage from the increased crit multiplier and I suspect you'll have issues maxing out both the elemental lines and the stances. From what I can see if you want to max out just DPS you'll need to invest fairly heavily in DWS as well to get the extra crit range and other benefits. So whilst monkchers will possibly be better at the DC stances (in their current state) they may not have the DPS of someone who focuses just on the damage options in AA and DWS.

I assume they didn't include ranger levels in the DC calculation because it would cause problems for elven AA - but if they could have separate formulas for AA and racial AA they could include some form of ranger level in the calculation which would offset any benefit monks gained from their higher wisdom.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HastyPudding

Seriously? Wisdom as a primary stat? Are you deliberately trying to make people play monkchers as the only viable longbow class? This is, by far, the most disgusting thing I've ever heard you guys come up with. There's no excuse for this. Words simply cannot express my irritation, right now.

Are you deliberately trying to make me quit DDO?

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should add ranger level to the dc which would help primary rangers more than monchers and still keep this wisdom trend if they feel that's appropriate.

Not so sure about the wisdom, I think Int would be better. The paralyzing arrows don't work well in higher content. I am not sure how that will help. I agree, I don't want them to become over powered and be a AOE thing. I also agree that my account will most likely never see a monkcher. I think having wisdom as a main stat for AA will just strengthen Monkchers again. I think the summon arrows should be more then 100 and should scale.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arlathen

• Is the cooldown on these abilities changing?
• Can Doubleshot go above 100% to provide a third arrow or more?

Would love to comment on this, but these are really important points when considering these changes.

Edit: Thanks for teasing these changes, there very relevant to the ranged players out there.

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Ya there's too much double shot spill over with this proposal you can get a good 40-60% Doubleshot before manyshot making the Doubleshot portion of the buff really week. If this is what they are going for they should be looking at adding 400 Ranged power.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blerkington

Hi,

These are really good questions, and I would also like to see an answer to them.

The justification that large numbers of projectiles is costly of server resources is an interesting assertion too. Is manyshot in its current form that much more demanding than constant repeating crossbow fire?

Thanks.

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Its the same thing they told us when they nerfed two weapon fighting and alacrity in U5.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Starla70

Not so sure about the wisdom, I think Int would be better. The paralyzing arrows don't work well in higher content. I am not sure how that will help. I agree, I don't want them to become over powered and be a AOE thing. I also agree that my account will most likely never see a monkcher. I think having wisdom as a main stat for AA will just strengthen Monkchers again. I think the summon arrows should be more then 100 and should scale.

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They are 100% returning. It makes no difference if you have 1 arrow or a billion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arlathen

• Is the cooldown on these abilities changing?
• Can Doubleshot go above 100% to provide a third arrow or more?

Would love to comment on this, but these are really important points when considering these changes.

Edit: Thanks for teasing these changes, there very relevant to the ranged players out there.

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The cooldown doesn't change.

Doubleshot will only provide one extra projectile, even if it goes over 100%. At the higher end this will mean that the ability essentially just rounds out your Doubleshot to 100%.

Sev~

Quote:

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Originally Posted by barecm

This. Definitely. TWF gets two slots so should bows.

Also, I am not understanding the uproar about using the wisdom mod for paralyzing. You can now max dex, ignore str, in, char, put a decent amount into con and dump into wis. Using that method I am still at 40 wis or so at lvl 28. and either 58 or 64 dex depending on which ED I am in and just at or over 1000 hps. So, 40 wis would be 20+15+ band immaterial (+6) and whatever other spell focus enchantment feats you take... so like 41 being a conservative estimate? That is higher than that? Better than the original 37. Also, you can craft a enchantment focus bow instead of paralyze at tier 2.

I plan on going the elemental arrows route, but need clarification on exactly what sources of spell power will boost it.

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I believe that except for PDK's, Paladins use Charisma for their spells. Perhaps they should be changed so that their melee damage is based entirely off Charisma as well, rather than using strength. That argument is nuts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

Thought I saw some one complain about having to give up proc effects on a Thunderforged bow to put elemental spell power on it for Elemental Arrows. Can't find the post now but here is math to compare 150 spell power vs the other Thunderforged effects.


1st Degree Burns: 5d6 Fire, and Vulnerable, 5*3.5 = 17.5 avg damage per hit, and vulnerable which only maters if no one else is putting it on.

Touch of Flames: 10d6 Fire. 10*3.5 = 35 avg damage.


Elemental Arrows + Dwarvencrft Elemental Spell Power 7d8 scaling with 100% spell power. 7*4.5 = 31.5 base
let x be spell power not from Dwarvencraft effect.
31.5(100+x+150)/100 = 31.5 + 0.315x + 47.25

47.25 extra damage from the 150 spell power that's better then Touch of Flames and better then 1st degree burns if with out the vulnerability part which you can let some one else handle and isn't as good against trash. IMO 150 Spell power is competitive in this instance. 47.25 avg damage is roughly 13.5d6

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And if you're soloing? And you forgot c) Dragon's Edge: Passive: Armor-Piercing 35%. On Crit: 33 to 105 Bleeding Damage. Armor-Piercing is a very important property for a toon using physical weapons.

And what does an AA do before they get to level 26 and can use a thunderforged bow? Or, while they're farming all those ingots and scales to make/upgrade your TF bow? Where are the sources of spell power going to come from? Not every bow in the game has a red slot. And, they only get one. So, am I going to be changing augments with a tool kit in the middle of a fight to get the right spellpower on my bow? Do I need four versions of every bow to cover the 4 possible spellpowers? Inventory in DDO is already a pain. This will be a nightmare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

Wisdom for the DC is the right call.

Rangers spells are wisdom based.

Making them Dex based is just playing into the 4e concept that all abilities from one class should be driven by the same same stat this was garbage there and is garbage where DDO has implemented it (Blood Strength should not scale with Melee Power but Devotion, and there are other examples of this 4e concept)

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Yes, and Paladin spells are Charisma based. Perhaps their melee damage should be based on Charisma instead of Strength, based on your reasoning.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mryal

Yea, of course...DEX is alredy favored on other ranger trees, and INT isnt even a stat for ranger, wis IS the obvious choice.If youre not using high wis theres elemental stances to use instead wich got a HUGE boost, people are failing to see that.
IF the devs are open to allow a multiselector between dex/wis or best of dex/wis then i'd agree, but replacing WIS with another stat would be completly stupid, for reasons i mentioned before.

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Yes, and Dex SHOULD be favored for ALL the ranger trees. That is how it is done for every other class in the game. I could live with a multi-selector, but frankly I'm against that as it will make Monkchers even more powerful than they are now, and there will still be no reason to play an AA instead of a Moncher.

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Originally Posted by CeltEireson

Yeah, without a solution to the double shot penalty for rangers the capstone is weak. With no double shot penalty capstone is reasonable.

The scaling of arrows is not really any use past low levels as its only the higher of bow enhancement bonus or arrows that counts and most epic bows are in the range +5 - +12.

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Agreed, it is ridiculously weak. Make the bow/arrow core enhancements stacking, rather than replacements. Right now, as soon as an AA gets into epics, they lose one of the main benefits of ALL their cores. What other class is this done to? And add something more. Look at the capstones for the other recently added/revised classes. They have capstones that make sense, and which reward you for sticking to the class. This does not. No one is going to bother with this capstone the way it is written.

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Originally Posted by Kielbasa

If the goal is to make monkchers better... Success. If the goal was to make a viable ranger tree you have some work to do. As much as I can see the argument for wisdom based dc abilities most people will go dex for their primary stat through dws and for more reflex save. Wisdom based just overly complicates things. So does scaling the imbues with spell power and not ranged power. The capstone needs some help something like advanced ninja training; extra arrows based off your dex score would help the ranger version of the tree tremendously.

Now if you want to have wisdom/intelligence based abilities and scaling imbues based off spell power in the elf version of the tree I would be all for that.

The ranger version of the tree needs to synergize with the other two ranger trees.

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Not sure I would want this stuff just moved to the elf tree, but you are absolutely correct on your other points.

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Originally Posted by mikarddo

Other 2h TF weapons get to pick all 3 tiers of effects AND get two red slots. Bows get 3 tiers + 1 red slot. Its really a no-brainer that Bows as 2h weapons should get 2 red slots. As for what to actually slot in the 3 tiers and the 2 red slots - thats a different matter but it has no real bearing on Bows needing another red slot.

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This. Absolutely. And it applies to all bows, not just long bows.

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Originally Posted by Severlin

(We are still talking with the player's council about balance changes, but I wanted to give a teaser on what we are looking at for Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars since it is relevant to this thread.)


We are considering changes to Many Shot and 10K Stars. We want a design that throws out fewer projectiles for server and client performance as missiles are actually expensive. We also want a design that doesn't require a doubleshot debuff.

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Ten Thousand Stars redesign: For the 30 seconds you add your Wisdom to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Manyshot on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Our goal is to make these abilities more efficient without reducing the overall DPS of ranged characters using one or both of these abilities.

Sev~

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This is a HUGE nerf to manyshot

Manyshot on live is a x4 multiplier

1.8*1.8 = 3.24 damage multiplier and that's best case assuming you have 0 DS and 0 RP once you have more then 2 the total multiplier will go down.

Code:

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Simple example
   
base damage is 100
assuming we fire 50 attacks in 20 secods base
total damage in 20 seconds is 5000

manyshot meanswe fire 4 arrows instead of one so 50*4 = 200
200*100 = 20000 damage in 20 seconds of many shot

80 mp and 80 doublestrike
180 damge per hit
50*1.8 = 90
90*180 = 16200 damage

1 - 16200/20000 = 0.19 or a 19% reduction in power

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Thats a nerf on base. Note that since manyshot multplies Ranged Power this was the best case since 80 RP isn't going to be as much of an total increase to damage done when you have a base RP already

Code:

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Now example assuing you already have 100 RP
base is 100
50 arrows per 20 second base

100 * (100+100)/100 = 200
200 * 50 = 10000 damge in 20 base

with live manyshot
200*4*50 = 40000 damage in 20 seconds

with new manyshot
100 * (100+180)/100 = 280
280*1.8*50 = 25200

1- 25200/40000 = 37% reduction

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You need to add a ton of damage to the tree to come close to the damage you would loose from this kind of a nerf to manyshot.

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Originally Posted by Severlin

The cooldown doesn't change.

Doubleshot will only provide one extra projectile, even if it goes over 100%. At the higher end this will mean that the ability essentially just rounds out your Doubleshot to 100%.

Sev~

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Thanks for the answer, Sev. I'll formulate some feedback based on this.

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Originally Posted by Aletys

And if you're soloing? And you forgot c) Dragon's Edge: Passive: Armor-Piercing 35%. On Crit: 33 to 105 Bleeding Damage. Armor-Piercing is a very important property for a toon using physical weapons.

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Dragons Edge is a Tier 2 effect Spell Power is a Tier 1 I didn't forget anything but you don't know what you are talking about.

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Originally Posted by Aletys

Yes, and Paladin spells are Charisma based. Perhaps their melee damage should be based on Charisma instead of Strength, based on your reasoning.

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That's exactly what 4e does makes spell and melee damage and everything else based on one stat. I'm saying not to do that.

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

This is a HUGE nerf to manyshot

Manyshot on live is a x4 multiplier

1.8*1.8 = 3.24 damage multiplier and that's best case assuming you have 0 DS and 0 RP once you have more then 2 the total multiplier will go down.

Code:

---

Simple example
   
base damage is 100
assuming we fire 50 attacks in 20 secods base
total damage in 20 seconds is 5000

manyshot meanswe fire 4 arrows instead of one so 50*4 = 200
200*100 = 20000 damage in 20 seconds of many shot

80 mp and 80 doublestrike
180 damge per hit
50*1.8 = 90
90*180 = 16200 damage

1 - 16200/20000 = 0.19 or a 19% reduction in power

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Thats a nerf on base. Note that since manyshot multplies Ranged Power this was the best case since 80 RP isn't going to be as much of an total increase to damage done when you have a base RP already

Code:

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Now example assuing you already have 100 RP
base is 100
50 arrows per 20 second base

100 * (100+100)/100 = 200
200 * 50 = 10000 damge in 20 base

with live manyshot
200*4*50 = 40000 damage in 20 seconds

with new manyshot
100 * (100+180)/100 = 280
280*1.8*50 = 25200

1- 25200/40000 = 37% reduction

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You need to add a ton of damage to the tree to come close to the damage you would loose from this kind of a nerf to manyshot.

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You need to take into account that DPS after these abilities are finished will be increased by your Doubleshot since there is no longer a debuff.

Sev~

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Originally Posted by Aletys

I believe that except for PDK's, Paladins use Charisma for their spells. Perhaps they should be changed so that their melee damage is based entirely off Charisma as well, rather than using strength. That argument is nuts.



And if you're soloing? And you forgot c) Dragon's Edge: Passive: Armor-Piercing 35%. On Crit: 33 to 105 Bleeding Damage. Armor-Piercing is a very important property for a toon using physical weapons.

And what does an AA do before they get to level 26 and can use a thunderforged bow? Or, while they're farming all those ingots and scales to make/upgrade your TF bow? Where are the sources of spell power going to come from? Not every bow in the game has a red slot. And, they only get one. So, am I going to be changing augments with a tool kit in the middle of a fight to get the right spellpower on my bow? Do I need four versions of every bow to cover the 4 possible spellpowers? Inventory in DDO is already a pain. This will be a nightmare.



Yes, and Paladin spells are Charisma based. Perhaps their melee damage should be based on Charisma instead of Strength, based on your reasoning.



Yes, and Dex SHOULD be favored for ALL the ranger trees. That is how it is done for every other class in the game. I could live with a multi-selector, but frankly I'm against that as it will make Monkchers even more powerful than they are now, and there will still be no reason to play an AA instead of a Moncher.



Agreed, it is ridiculously weak. Make the bow/arrow core enhancements stacking, rather than replacements. Right now, as soon as an AA gets into epics, they lose one of the main benefits of ALL their cores. What other class is this done to? And add something more. Look at the capstones for the other recently added/revised classes. They have capstones that make sense, and which reward you for sticking to the class. This does not. No one is going to bother with this capstone the way it is written.



Not sure I would want this stuff just moved to the elf tree, but you are absolutely correct on your other points.



This. Absolutely. And it applies to all bows, not just long bows.

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Once this hits Lamannia for testing and you can see how much more damage the elemental arrows are giving, this whole dialogue will be a moot point. Without anything beyond what is being proposed here by the devs, I can safely say I will be going the elemental route only putting enough into the other side of the tree to get Slayer arrows. My ask is that they break the requirements to get slayer arrow since having to sink points into paralyzing and terror arrows will be a waste.

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Originally Posted by Grailhawk

You need to add a ton of damage to the tree to come close to the damage you would loose from this kind of a nerf to manyshot.

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This. With this suggested nerf to manyshot you are going to need to put some massive boosts to bows in here to get people to use them over shurikens or repeaters. If the change goes through you will have relegated manyshot to a swap to bow ability activate then swap back to shuriken or repeater for the ranged power boost.

All I've seen so far with with the changes is that the devs are unsure of how to make bow combat viable versus other ranged combat styles. This is not encouraging.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kielbasa

This. With this suggested nerf to manyshot you are going to need to put some massive boosts to bows in here to get people to use them over shurikens or repeaters. If the change goes through you will have relegated manyshot to a swap to bow ability activate then swap back to shuriken or repeater for the ranged power boost.

All I've seen so far with with the changes is that the devs are unsure of how to make bow combat viable versus other ranged combat styles. This is not encouraging.

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There is a large potential increase in DPS with the loss of the Doubleshot debuff. We have to account for that.

Good point on the weapon switch. Our plan is that the short term buffs end if you unequip your weapon during Manyshot or Ten Thousand Stars.

Sev~

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Originally Posted by Severlin

Manyshot redesign: For the next 20 seconds you add your base attack bonus * 4 to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. Using this ability places Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cool-down. (You no longer have a Doubleshot penalty applied.)

Sev~

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Kinda still makes gearing/speccing for doubleshot an awkward/bad thing, unless you want to change doubleshot > 100 to have a chance to fire a third shot.

Maybe this can be 3-dimensional instead?

BAB*2 to Doubleshot
BAB*2 to Alacrity (edit: actually should probably be BAB*3 to Alacrity, since bows have reload animation unaffected by it)
BAB*4 to RP

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon¹.

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I know this is a lost cause, but I still want to voice that I would heavily prefer that AA was removed as a Ranger tree, and become an elf-only tree, like it is supposed to be. This way, you can balance this tree against a 66 AP pool maximum (since unlocking AA requires at least 14) instead of 80 like it is currently.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank

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Neat. Any chance to make Energy Resistance Boost also apply a very large elemental absorption bonus for the same time, like 20/30/50% absorption?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

• Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
• Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
• Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
• Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
• Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
• Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
• Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality¹ on each hit.
  
  • Pull of Reality¹: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).

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Except by the wis-based DC (I think it should be Int because arcane), I like all proposed changes. Pull of Reality should not be a "chance" to proc, however, since the stacks fade fast (5 stacks every 3 seconds).

About the DC, small suggestion: 10 + half ranger level + Dex|Wis modifier on Ranger tree, and 20 + Int modifier on Elf tree? Both keep adding Enchantment bonus. Monkchers that use Elf AA to get access to higher cores lose the synergy, and ranger splashes are inherently weaker than pure rangers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)

• Increase base damage to 1d8.
• Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
• Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
• Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
• Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
• Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower

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Since the arrows scale with Spell Power, and neither ranger tree gives inherent non-positive spellpower (and the class don't have Spellcraft as a class skill), add +10~20 specific elemental spell power on each Elemental Arrow (eg, Acid Arrow gives +10~20 Acid spell power), and +5~10 Universal Spell Power to "Elemental Damage" option.

Will Force Arrows stay as 1d6 damage, since Force is less resistible than other elements (which I actually encourage), or will it also be bumped to 1d8?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):

• Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"

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I would HEAVILY ask for that benefit to be only on Ranger AA, and not on Elf AA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):

• Dexterity bonus increased to +4

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Since you made the tree depend on Wisdom for their DCs, and nothing on the tree actually benefits from Dexterity beyond basic bow to hit (dex to damage is on DWS tree), change that to +4 Wisdom, or +2 Dex and Wis (and if following my suggestion of Elf AA being int-based, then +4 Int or +2 Dex and Int there).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Slaying Arrow:

• Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)

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Slaying Arrow is on par with "finishing" abilities like Merciful Shot on DWS or Execute on Assassin, but it lack a conditional situation (on the other hand, have a SP cost that can be adjusted for balance, and a longer cooldown). The main problem is the synergy with Manyshot AND Adrenaline. If one of those two abilities suddenly stop working with Slaying Arrow as it works today, Slaying Arrow remain powerful, but not a game breaker.

Things like Manyshot only allowing Adrenaline to empower the first hit (like it does with cleave-like abilities), or Adrenaline adds Melee Power instead of percentage damage boost, or if the ways to recover Adrenaline only works with melee attacks (Fury Eternal, Unbridled Fury counter) should be enough to keep Slaying Arrow as is.

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Originally Posted by FedoraSire

As monkchers are mostly the only build with WIS as a main stat, having ONLY Wisdom is unfair to the class AA is made for. To satisfy multiple parties, the DCs should work like this:

Base DC+ Stat modifer that your bow's to-hit uses + the other bonuses

This way, three options are available for AA:
Int-based using Harper, to the boon of ARCANE casters
Dex-based using DWS' Improved Finesse/Elven Grace, for elven ____, and the ranger in general
Wis-based (maybe add enhancement that allows WIS to damage, possibly to-hit for pure ranger w/o ki compatability portion?), so the monkchers don't destroy the forums in rage at nerfs.


There's no reason it couldn't be coded, as assassins get the option of INT or DEX for their DCs.

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Make it to damage, so people with bow str can use str for something.

Who got bow str feat? oh, IDK, maybe 100% people with at least 1 ranger level?