Three tiny changes.

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09-15-2014, 10:39 PM
Waaye

Three tiny changes.

Named gear should be better than random gear. It should be and needs to be but often it is not. Some of the named gear in DDO needs to be improved and here are three examples:

A few weeks ago I decided to upgrade my L16 Ranger's unnamed L12 Paragon bow because it was starting to take too many hits to stop mobs. Purchased Attack on Stormreach to try and get the Petryfying War Bow only to discover that it was mandatory to complete a chaotic evil quest to obtain the required Stonedust Handwraps. My Lawful good character cannot assassinate any creature to frame an ambassador so the bow is unattainable for me. Even if I could get it, the bow is still only 1d8 and not comparable to many bows of similar level. The Gnollish War Bow needs to be at least 1.50 [1d8] and there needs to be a non-chaotic non-evil way to obtain all the necessary ingredients to make the Petryfying version. Since obtaining a better bow for my Ranger was the main reason for buying the pack the purchase was not a good value for the money. The quests were enjoyable but my character increased in level and his unimproved gear fell even further behind.

Also purchased Reavers Refuge to try and improve my armour over the unnamed leather that I found in a chest a while ago and still wear. After spending a great many hours unlocking the final quest and racing through it I finally had the armour. Then, when I went to upgrade the item with a rune of Deathward, I disovered that it added Deathblock [0] and not Deathward as indicated. My current +3 Flurry Feycraft Leather of Deathblock III already has better enchantments. The Dragontouched armour is no better than the random loot I can already find! Named items should always be a little bit better than random items. Dragontouched armour needs improving at least as far as making its Deathward rune actually add Deathward and not Deathblock [0]. Then buying Reavers Reach would make more sense.

Since the Petryfying War Bow was not an option I then spent several days and about forty passes doing Cannith challenges to obtain the Elemental Longbow of Earth. Only to find that the L12 and L16 bows were never upgraded to 1.50 [1d8] and the Stone Prison seems to rarely trigger. The L20 version of the bow is 2 [1d8] but the mid-level ones are still only 1d8. My L10 1.50 [1d8] Bow of the Elements (Air) works much better than the Earth bow does. Repeating the challenges all those times to obtain the new bow was time misspent. The L12 and L16 versions of the bow need to be at least 1.50 [1d8] and the protection needs to be changed to DR X /- like an Earth Elemental and not acid !? My Ranger levelled again but is still forced to use the same bow as he has been using since level 12.

Fixing these items should not be difficult because it doesn't require any new coding. All that is needed is a few tweaks since the necessary procedures already exist within the game.

Obtaining gear is a major part of DDO so the gear needs to be worth getting expecially if it involves purchasing a pack. A few tiny changes should dramatically improve the game experience for many, if not most, newcomers and encourage them to make future purchases.
09-15-2014, 11:13 PM
doubledge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

.......................... Purchased Attack on Stormreach to try and get the Petryfying War Bow only to discover that it was mandatory to complete a chaotic evil quest to obtain the required Stonedust Handwraps. My Lawful good character cannot assassinate any creature to frame an ambassador so the bow is unattainable for me. .................................
Since the Petryfying War Bow was not an option I then spent several days and about forty passes doing Cannith challenges to obtain the Elemental Longbow of Earth. Only to find that the L12 and L16 bows were never upgraded to 1.50 [1d8] and the Stone Prison seems to rarely trigger. The L20 version of the bow is 2 [1d8] but the mid-level ones are still only 1d8. My L10 1.50 [1d8] Bow of the Elements (Air) works much better than the Earth bow does. Repeating the challenges all those times to obtain the new bow was time misspent. The L12 and L16 versions of the bow need to be at least 1.50 [1d8] and the protection needs to be changed to DR X /- like an Earth Elemental.......

Okay, so how would you reccomend changing the petrifying war bow to be less evil? I'm assuming you're deathly afraid of green-steel since that's what the devils use. All in all though, i mostly agree (sans evil weapon.... what? it's a medusa...)

All in all, while the way you want to play is great, it's not worth going onto the forums to whine about the method of receiving something as evil.

Then again, i'm probably not the guy to ask, since i carry around +5 unholy cold iron of chaotic outsider bane weapons on my paladin...
09-16-2014, 12:25 AM
Douglas21

If you want to role-play that way, that's your business, but it's not particularly relevant to balancing gear since it's not in any way enforced or even suggested by the game.

As for bows in that level range, have you considered the Bow of Sinew? It's still only 1d8 base, but the crits are absurdly good.

Your basic complaint is quite valid, though, there are a lot of named items that missed out on updates or are otherwise not useful.
09-16-2014, 12:40 AM
Scrabbler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Purchased Attack on Stormreach to try and get the Petryfying War Bow only to discover that it was mandatory to complete a chaotic evil quest to obtain the required Stonedust Handwraps. My Lawful good character cannot assassinate any creature to frame an ambassador so the bow is unattainable for me.

Did you also refuse to play Gianthold? I ask because the intensely dishonest nature of those quests bothered me... and I was only a Cleric, not a Paladin.
09-16-2014, 02:03 AM
dunklezhan

Appreciate, even applaud the hardcore RP involved here* but... meh. Quicker, easier, more seductive the dark side it. And it has better loot. And cookies.

But I agree with your general points about named loot improvements.

*Warning - there are going to be a LOT of quests you cannot complete. Many of the quests ARE outright evil (by FR standards, Eberron is more shades of grey which is why I prefer it) and makes a mockery of the fact you can't even play a neutral evil alignment. Not that I'm in favour of players having evil alignments, mark you, I'm just saying the goals/explanations/background for some of the quests does not lend itself well to 'good' characters. I suggest you roll yourself up a true neutral as soon as possible unless you want to be running into this problem a lot.
09-16-2014, 02:54 PM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

[...] enforced or even suggested by the game.

Which game, Douglas21?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

As for bows in that level range, have you considered the Bow of Sinew? It's still only 1d8 base, but the crits are absurdly good.

Yes, I did consider it but I'm a Premium player with limited funds and must choose the expansions I buy wisely. My L16 character has a good L12 bow but I noticed in recent quests that the mobs are regularly getting by my healer hireling and summoned mini-tankette cat. Some of them dispell the cat, stun the healer and then flatten my squishy Ranger before he can bow them down [mow them down with arrows].

When I looked at a gameplay video of "Harbinger of Madness" I noticed a lot of nasty creatures like Mind Flayers and Beholders. The "Attack on Stormreach" gameplay looked to be simpler to do without a lot of expensive gold seal hirelings so I chose that pack instead. [Finishing Reaver's took two gold seals and one of them is still at the bottom of a lava pool somewhere in there.] Sadly it was not until I obtained the War Bow that I came to understand there was no way to craft the Petrifying version without committing murder so I moved on to the Cannith challenges. It should not be too hard to make Stonedust Handwraps available from other non-murder quests in the "Attack on Stormreach" series.

After doing Cannith challenges until I obtained the Earth bow and upgraded it to Tier 2, I then tested it. It was very obvious that my L10 Bow of the Elements (Air) generally outperformed the L16 Tier 2 Earth bow and I was disappointed. The L20 Earth bow looks to be better with 2 [1d8] so I may be able to upgrade and use my newest bow when, and if, I reach L20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

Your basic complaint is quite valid, though, there are a lot of named items that missed out on updates or are otherwise not useful.

It is not a complaint but suggestions. Tiny changes to these items would make a huge difference to newcomers who do not have access to Green Steel items and such. It would be better to make the tiny changes now rather than wait for major revisions of the quests later. Make the Gnollish Bow 1.50 [1d8] right now and give a murder-free source of ingredients. Make the L12 and L16 Earth bows 1.50 [1d8] right now so they are similar to other level 12 and 16 bows.

And consider the Dragontouched armour. Nobody wants it any more and almost nobody buys the pack. Alter one rune to make it actually do what it says it will do and Reavers Reach instantly becomes one of the best packs. With one small change Dragontouched armour would become the only source of continuous Deathward in the game and finally be a fitting gift from a grateful dragon. One tiny tweak to one little rune is all it would take to make the armor worth getting and the pack worth buying again.

A few improvements like these and the game might attract enough newcomers to make slow-play normal-difficulty LFMs common once more. They might even stick around long enough to spend a little real money buying Adventure Packs.
09-16-2014, 04:18 PM
LuKaSu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Purchased Attack on Stormreach to try and get the Petryfying War Bow only to discover that it was mandatory to complete a chaotic evil quest to obtain the required Stonedust Handwraps. My Lawful good character cannot assassinate any creature to frame an ambassador so the bow is unattainable for me.

I think it could be said that trying to prevent an invasion could be a good thing to do. So, that brings us to, maybe chaotic good or neutral good.

But, if your Ranger's sense of justice (or the wishes of the officials in Stormreach) were your sense of duty, then following the orders could be lawful.

As another one of the posters around here has said, "Lawful Good does not always equate to Lawful Nice."

There are a lot of military people that kill a lot of other people in this world. I don't personally agree with their actions, but I can follow the line of thought that what they are doing is Lawful, as their government told them to do it.

Remember: roleplaying is based on the perspective of the character. You can have two lawful good people that want to destroy each other, because their individual views of right and wrong are different, though they are following their perspective of "The Right Thing To Do" to the T. In real life, I try to be as close to Lawful Good as I can be. I try to follow the laws, and I try to help people and Do The Right Thing. But I have to admit, there are a lot of other people who are also trying to follow their laws and try to help people and try to Do The Right Thing who think I'm completely wrong in all of my beliefs.

That rationalization doesn't work in all quests, but in this one, I think it can.
09-16-2014, 04:49 PM
Scrabbler

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuKaSu

There are a lot of military people that kill a lot of other people in this world.

The problem with the Minotaur town quest isn't that you're killing them, but that you are killing them in an unfair surprise attack and then framing someone else for it.

The proper Paladin-style way to deal with the Medusa Hesstess would be to walk up and challenge her to battle.
09-16-2014, 09:17 PM
PsychoBlonde

The very best heroic bow in the game is Unwavering Ardency out of the Abbot raid. However, the Elemental Longbow of Earth isn't bad, and it's much easier to get.

Also, you don't HAVE to do a sneak attack on Frame Work, you can just charge in and kill everything the usual way. You "frame" the Medusa because otherwise the minotaur nation will probably attack Stormreach. (That, and it's about the most unsubtle frame job in the history of the universe.) You do get to confront Hestess head on, you just have to get her armies out of the way first.
09-16-2014, 10:59 PM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrabbler

The problem with the Minotaur town quest isn't that you're killing them, but that you are killing them in an unfair surprise attack and then framing someone else for it.

Exactly right, Scrabbler, and that is why my lawful good character abandoned the quest right after the requirements were stated. There is a difference between war and murder.

An even bigger problem with the quest is that a lawful and/or good character can complete the quest without repercussions. This differs substantially from 40 years of established D&D gameplay. The new alignment system is a little confusing sometimes but the original "Law, Neutrality, or Chaos" system was clear about performing chaotic or evil acts. From "Men and Magic" page 7, "Note that Clerics of 7th level and greater are either "Law" or "Chaos" and there is a sharp distinction between them. If a Patriarch receiving the above benefits changes sides, all the benefits will immediately be removed!"

Completing "Frame Work" should instantly cause a character's alignment to change "sides" to chaotic evil, if it was something else before. If it did change then "all the benefits" of the previous alignment should "immediately be removed". At least that has been the way of the game for the last forty years or so.

It was obvious that "Frame Work" was a quest my Ranger could not complete so I skipped it. That was not a problem at the time but became troublesome later. The Petrifying war Bow requires Stonedust Handwraps to make. The Handwraps can only be found in "Eyes of Stone" and that quest can only be started after completing "Frame Work". Currently, there is no other way to get the Petrifying Warbow except by murdering the Minotaur Chieftan and framing the ambassador by turning an innocent into stone.

This annoying linearity can be easily fixed by making Stonedust Handwraps available in other quests in the series. The bow also needs to be upgraded to 1.50 [1d8] to be useful at levels 12 and up. If the bow and requirements are corrected then more people are likely to buy the pack.
09-17-2014, 12:19 AM
Scrabbler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Completing "Frame Work" should instantly cause a character's alignment to change "sides" to chaotic evil, if it was something else before.

Doing some dishonest things to a bunch of aggressive Chaotic Evil monsters would not cause anyone to cease being Lawful or Good. It would break the Paladin code of conduct, transforming your character into a Fighter with no bonus feats.

To really change someone's alignment to evil would take a quest such as Purge The Heretics. Anyway, the real in-character solution to that whole Attack On Stormreach situation would just be to spot the enemy army on their landing beach and go down to face them, right in the first quest.

Quote:

Currently, there is no other way to get the Petrifying Warbow except by murdering the Minotaur Chieftan and framing the ambassador by turning an innocent into stone.

Do you have Silver Longbow and / or Sinew?
09-17-2014, 07:57 PM
dozkal-ne

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuKaSu

I think it could be said that trying to prevent an invasion could be a good thing to do. So, that brings us to, maybe chaotic good or neutral good.

But, if your Ranger's sense of justice (or the wishes of the officials in Stormreach) were your sense of duty, then following the orders could be lawful.

As another one of the posters around here has said, "Lawful Good does not always equate to Lawful Nice."

There are a lot of military people that kill a lot of other people in this world. I don't personally agree with their actions, but I can follow the line of thought that what they are doing is Lawful, as their government told them to do it.

Remember: roleplaying is based on the perspective of the character. You can have two lawful good people that want to destroy each other, because their individual views of right and wrong are different, though they are following their perspective of "The Right Thing To Do" to the T. In real life, I try to be as close to Lawful Good as I can be. I try to follow the laws, and I try to help people and Do The Right Thing. But I have to admit, there are a lot of other people who are also trying to follow their laws and try to help people and try to Do The Right Thing who think I'm completely wrong in all of my beliefs.

That rationalization doesn't work in all quests, but in this one, I think it can.

Guys, I found the bard!

As for your search for loot, I recommend this link: http://itemwiki.cubicleninja.com/Default.aspx
09-17-2014, 08:22 PM
FranOhmsford

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrabbler

The problem with the Minotaur town quest isn't that you're killing them, but that you are killing them in an unfair surprise attack and then framing someone else for it.

The proper Paladin-style way to deal with the Medusa Hesstess would be to walk up and challenge her to battle.

I thought the OP was talking about the Minotaurs at first but no!

The Stonedust Handwraps drop in Eyes of Stone and here we have a Lawful Good Paladin refusing to "Murder" a Chaotic Evil Aberration!

WHAT?!?

Me thinks the OP doesn't realise that his Paladin would be stripped of his powers for such a refusal!
09-18-2014, 12:08 AM
Douglas21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Exactly right, Scrabbler, and that is why my lawful good character abandoned the quest right after the requirements were stated. There is a difference between war and murder.

Then turn it into war. Problem solved.

The actual requirements of the quest are a) kill the chieftain and b) turn one minotaur to stone. Assassinating the chieftain is merely a suggested tactic, it is an entirely valid choice (and even one supported by optional objectives) to openly walk in through the front gate and wage a full frontal assault on the entire fortress. And if you're declaring full up war like that anyway (they are enemies who would otherwise attack you first, after all, and they do attack you on sight just for showing up), is stoning one really worse than killing him? As for the framing aspect, if you go this route I'd consider it just a gesture to fulfill the letter of the agreement so the Coin Lords can't site it as a reason to stiff you. If you're that blatant about it someone's going to get the real word out regardless, and intimidation by the strength of your preemptive strike will take the place of any distrust that would have been fostered by the frame job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

I thought the OP was talking about the Minotaurs at first but no!

The Stonedust Handwraps drop in Eyes of Stone and here we have a Lawful Good Paladin refusing to "Murder" a Chaotic Evil Aberration!

WHAT?!?

Me thinks the OP doesn't realise that his Paladin would be stripped of his powers for such a refusal!

I expect he'd have no problem at all with Eyes of Stone on its own, but you can't get that quest without first completing Frame Work.
09-18-2014, 12:38 AM
droid327

Yeah, just because you want to roleplay your pally as Lawful Stupid (or Stupid Good; apologies, but its a very un-nuanced approach to alignment) doesn't mean the game has to accommodate you. And named gear doesn't have to universally be better than lootgen - a lot of named gear is much easier to acquire than trying to get a good roll of lootgen, after all. If you could just run Lordsmarch 2-3 times and get the best bow at-level, then why have lootgen drop at all? Just to vendor it? Why not just cut the middleman and just have everything drop straight plat, save the inventory space?

That being said, you can craft yourself a decent Paragon-level bow if you grind up your Cannith Crafting, so that's always an option: a +5 Acid of Bleed with a Red augment slot will be ML16, have the Paragon damage profile, and give you decent DPS comparable to at-level named weapons. If you Master Craft it, you can even bump Bleed up to Pure Good and keep it ML16.

Finally - DDO wiki is your friend. There's no reason you should EVER grind out any item or buy any pack without doing your homework first to make sure its actually what you think it is. You could have saved yourself a lot of consternation simply by going there to see what the Bow of Earth's damage profile was, or what the quests required you to do in Attack on Stormreach, etc.
09-19-2014, 02:29 AM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

Then turn it into war. Problem solved.

My solution to the problem was to abandon the quest but why is almost every poster talking about the morality of the quest when the thread is about suggested ways to improve gear?
09-19-2014, 04:29 AM
Lonnbeimnech

A paladin would simply not do it Dorris' way, and would kick in the front door and kill everything that stood in his way. Which btw will also complete the quest. You do still have to use the wand...

These aren't 'good' minotaurs minding their own business, they are being recruited to attack and conquer Stormreach.

As for the bow, why would a paladin use a cowards weapon?
09-19-2014, 11:04 AM
Douglas21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

My solution to the problem was to abandon the quest

That doesn't give you access to the Stonedust Wraps, so no it is not actually a solution to the problem in question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

but why is almost every poster talking about the morality of the quest when the thread is about suggested ways to improve gear?

Because a major part of what you complained about, which you put a lot of emphasis on, is a self-imposed handicap that most of us think is a) silly or based on reasons that can easily be worked around and b) completely unrelated to the problem of gear quality.
09-19-2014, 11:38 AM
BDog77

Ummm, roll up a Chaotic Neutral character and have them get the handwraps for your Ranger?
09-19-2014, 11:58 AM
Grailhawk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Named gear should be better than random gear. It should be and needs to be but often it is not. Some of the named gear in DDO needs to be improved and here are three examples:

A few weeks ago I decided to upgrade my L16 Ranger's unnamed L12 Paragon bow because it was starting to take too many hits to stop mobs. Purchased Attack on Stormreach to try and get the Petryfying War Bow only to discover that it was mandatory to complete a chaotic evil quest to obtain the required Stonedust Handwraps. My Lawful good character cannot assassinate any creature to frame an ambassador so the bow is unattainable for me. Even if I could get it, the bow is still only 1d8 and not comparable to many bows of similar level. The Gnollish War Bow needs to be at least 1.50 [1d8] and there needs to be a non-chaotic non-evil way to obtain all the necessary ingredients to make the Petryfying version. Since obtaining a better bow for my Ranger was the main reason for buying the pack the purchase was not a good value for the money. The quests were enjoyable but my character increased in level and his unimproved gear fell even further behind.

Also purchased Reavers Refuge to try and improve my armour over the unnamed leather that I found in a chest a while ago and still wear. After spending a great many hours unlocking the final quest and racing through it I finally had the armour. Then, when I went to upgrade the item with a rune of Deathward, I disovered that it added Deathblock [0] and not Deathward as indicated. My current +3 Flurry Feycraft Leather of Deathblock III already has better enchantments. The Dragontouched armour is no better than the random loot I can already find! Named items should always be a little bit better than random items. Dragontouched armour needs improving at least as far as making its Deathward rune actually add Deathward and not Deathblock [0]. Then buying Reavers Reach would make more sense.

Since the Petryfying War Bow was not an option I then spent several days and about forty passes doing Cannith challenges to obtain the Elemental Longbow of Earth. Only to find that the L12 and L16 bows were never upgraded to 1.50 [1d8] and the Stone Prison seems to rarely trigger. The L20 version of the bow is 2 [1d8] but the mid-level ones are still only 1d8. My L10 1.50 [1d8] Bow of the Elements (Air) works much better than the Earth bow does. Repeating the challenges all those times to obtain the new bow was time misspent. The L12 and L16 versions of the bow need to be at least 1.50 [1d8] and the protection needs to be changed to DR X /- like an Earth Elemental and not acid !? My Ranger levelled again but is still forced to use the same bow as he has been using since level 12.

Fixing these items should not be difficult because it doesn't require any new coding. All that is needed is a few tweaks since the necessary procedures already exist within the game.

Obtaining gear is a major part of DDO so the gear needs to be worth getting expecially if it involves purchasing a pack. A few tiny changes should dramatically improve the game experience for many, if not most, newcomers and encourage them to make future purchases.

I agree that some of the Paragon level name weapons need to be updated to have 1.5[w]

Look up Silver Bow and Bow of Sinew. There crit profile is what makes them great.

Dragontouched armor has some very good options for L16 Healing amp 10%, Healing amp 20%, and Devotion 82 is a good armor and works very well on a Ranger, So is Protection +5, Resistance +5, Dodge 6%. There are options just farm casual Pray on the hunter a until you get what you want. (every 3 runs is a sovereign rune which you can shatter down and get eldritch runs from).
09-19-2014, 05:45 PM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grailhawk

I agree that some of the Paragon level name weapons need to be updated to have 1.5[w]

Look up Silver Bow and Bow of Sinew. There crit profile is what makes them great.

Dragontouched armor has some very good options for L16 Healing amp 10%, Healing amp 20%, and Devotion 82 is a good armor and works very well on a Ranger, So is Protection +5, Resistance +5, Dodge 6%. There are options just farm casual Pray on the hunter a until you get what you want. (every 3 runs is a sovereign rune which you can shatter down and get eldritch runs from).

Thanks for making an on-topic post, Grailhawk.

The specifications of a bow are important but since the target is part of the calculation I always do extensive empirical testing before adding it to the list of bows I carry. The Earth bow did not perform as well as my current bows so I parked it in the bank until it is fixed or I reach L20 and can get the 2 [1d8] version. Correcting the Earth bow should not take much effort since 1.50 [1d8] is a standard type. Changing the protection to DR X /- like an Earth Elemental should be simple too. Everyone would benefit from these tiny changes.

My Ranger has a healing sceptre since the other prizes for completing "Invaders!" made no sense at all for a Ranger. The way my character has evolved proteciton from death effects needs to be on the armour.

My old Feycraft armour had Deathblock III but its AC protection was not the best in L16 quests. Dragontouched offered better protection and Deathward instead of Deathblock. So I bought the pack to get the armour and obtain a Deathward rune. After spending a great many hours obtaining the items imagine my shock and dismay when the "Deathward" rune applied Deathblock [0] to the armour instead of Deathward as indicated. At that point I fully understood why so few people buy that pack anymore.

Now I have L16 Spriticraft that matches the base specifications of Dragontouched and came with Deathblock III. The Dragontouched is parked in the bank until I decide what to do with it.

Deathward is a standard spell and can easily be added to the armour. It is just a matter of editing the armour object, selecting the correct spell, and making it continuous, constant effect, or whatever the case might be. If that makes the item too powerful then it would be a simple to add back a 50% vulnerability to negative spell power. A tiny change to the armour would dramatically improve its utility. Everyone would benefit from this tiny change.
09-19-2014, 06:36 PM
Grailhawk

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Thanks for making an on-topic post, Grailhawk.

The specifications of a bow are important but since the target is part of the calculation I always do extensive empirical testing before adding it to the list of bows I carry. The Earth bow did not perform as well as my current bows so I parked it in the bank until it is fixed or I reach L20 and can get the 2 [1d8] version. Correcting the Earth bow should not take much effort since 1.50 [1d8] is a standard type. Changing the protection to DR X /- like an Earth Elemental should be simple too. Everyone would benefit from these tiny changes.

Unfortunately I think you're wrong about the amount of effort it would take to update the Earth Bow to 1.5[w] the fact that the weapons can have crafted effects added to them makes them hard to work with (I do agree it should be done though).

As for changing the Elemental Resistance to DR even if I agreed with that idea, I doubt they would ever even consider it the design of those weapons is for each to have a elemental protection not DR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

My Ranger has a healing sceptre since the other prizes for completing "Invaders!" made no sense at all for a Ranger. The way my character has evolved proteciton from death effects needs to be on the armour.

Visor of the Flesh Render easy enough to farm up 3-5 of them and then you have opened up a gear slot to a better effect. The spell also protects you from neg levels unlike the items and there really isn't that many negative energy attacks to warrant having a full time gear slot for it.

Scepter of Healing
Min: 43.44 = 1.81(24)
Low: 49.52 = 1.81*1.14(24)
Avg: 65.00 = 1.81*1.14(31.5)
High: 80.47 = 1.81*1.14*(39)
Max: 141.18 = 1.81*2*(39)

DT Amp + Devotion
Min: 57.66 = 1.82*1.1*1.2(24)
Avg: 75.68 = 1.82*1.1*1.2(31.5)
Max: 93.69 = 1.82*1.1*1.2(39)

Personally I like my healing less spiky and more consistent which is what the DT armor offers, along with about 10 more HP per cast on average. Also means you don't have to swap your weapon, add in Quicken spell feat and you can now heal in combat with out loosing a beat.

One last thing for some reason (even though ddo wiki says there BTC) I'm under the impression you can buy Stonedust Handwraps off the AH (maybe its the ASAH) have you checked?
09-19-2014, 06:39 PM
Ungood

Well you are 100% correct that Turbine dropped the ball on the upgrading of the Damage Step of Named Weapons. This was an effect that happened with the Ghostbaning, where Developer Feather of Sun explained that they opted to make Loot gen better to make the game easier for new players and this added in paragon and epic damage steps to all Loot gen, in effect making them better then a lot of existing Named and Raid gear that exist in the lower levels.

Many Packs, like Reavers Refugee, Lord of Blades, well, pretty much all the packs took a beating to how named and raid gear currently stacks up against Loot Gen gear. In fact as the game gets even higher in level, loot gen starts to take best in slot.

The advantage to this however, is as you level up your character, you will never need to do a quest or quest arc to get some named gear that will make your character better, as you will be able to get the best gear you need for your character from loot gen alone.

While I think this bad form on Turbines part, that is what they have opted to do with their game.
09-20-2014, 02:24 AM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grailhawk

Unfortunately I think you're wrong about the amount of effort it would take to update the Earth Bow to 1.5[w] the fact that the weapons can have crafted effects added to them makes them hard to work with (I do agree it should be done though).
As for changing the Elemental Resistance to DR even if I agreed with that idea, I doubt they would ever even consider it the design of those weapons is for each to have a elemental protection not DR.
Visor of the Flesh Render easy enough to farm up 3-5 of them and then you have opened up a gear slot to a better effect. The spell also protects you from neg levels unlike the items and there really isn't that many negative energy attacks to warrant having a full time gear slot for it.
[...]
Personally I like my healing less spiky and more consistent which is what the DT armor offers, along with about 10 more HP per cast on average. Also means you don't have to swap your weapon, add in Quicken spell feat and you can now heal in combat with out loosing a beat.
One last thing for some reason (even though ddo wiki says there BTC) I'm under the impression you can buy Stonedust Handwraps off the AH (maybe its the ASAH) have you checked?

Well, if I am wrong then it is the first time in history because I never make misteaks!

If DDO is similar to games I have worked with in the past then it should just be a matter of loading the item with an editor, changing the fields and saving it. They might even have a drop down menu for the different standard damage choices.

Any weapon that has an elemental theme and provides protection should have the same protections as the elemental. The way the Earth bow is now makes the enchanter that created it seem kind of crazy because most Earth Elementals do not have protection from acid. The obvious choice for protection on this bow is the one thing that most Earth Elementals have in common, DR /-. Changing the protection on the bow to DR 15 /- like a Greater Earth Elemental works for me. An alternative would be to delete the protection completely and add more enchantment points to allow the player to have more options for enchanting the Tier 3 version of the bow.

Before I had armour with Deathblock I used to take a healer that could cast Deathblock or Mass Deathblock. That did not work well against the Beholders in "Invaders!". They just dispelled the Deatblock and then coloured my Ranger dead. After I started wearing Deathblock armour they never dispelled the protection again. Healing was never a problem since my character has always carried a wand, potions, and can cast healing spells. By using all three healing is fairly rapid but it does cost some platinum.

The Visor of the Flesh Render Guards seems to only cast the spell which should be dispellable. That would not be nearly as effective as having continuous non-dispellable Deathward on the armour. The Visor is not something I can "farm" for anyway since I do not own the pack and won't be buying any new ones for a while.

One possible problem with continuous Deathward is that it would be too powerful and some vulnerability to negative energy might have to be added to restore balance. They should change the spell on Dragontouched anyway because the rune has always been labelled "Deathward" and most people know what that means.

About the Handwraps. I checked both auctions and all pawn shops for them over about a week. The only similar item was Vampiric Handwraps on the shard exchange. I thought about buying them to see if they would work for the bow but chose not to because they were expensive. Decided to cut my losses and go for the Earth bow instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

Well you are 100% correct that Turbine dropped the ball on the upgrading of the Damage Step of Named Weapons. This was an effect that happened with the Ghostbaning, where Developer Feather of Sun explained that they opted to make Loot gen better to make the game easier for new players and this added in paragon and epic damage steps to all Loot gen, in effect making them better then a lot of existing Named and Raid gear that exist in the lower levels.

Well said, Ungood, but it exposes a logical error on their part. One of the main reasons for questing in DDO is to obtain improved gear. It makes no sense for a player to purchase a pack and quest for the items when the items are inferior to what the character already has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

Many Packs, like Reavers Refugee, Lord of Blades, well, pretty much all the packs took a beating to how named and raid gear currently stacks up against Loot Gen gear. In fact as the game gets even higher in level, loot gen starts to take best in slot.

Yes, I know the gear from some packs does not stack up since I got some of the gear and tested it. Still, a few quick changes to the gear would change all that. Changing the base damage of the bows I metioned to 1.50 [1d8] would put them in the same league as random bows and the named bow's enchantments might even make them slightly better. One tiny change would make the bows worth the effort to get them. My L16 Earth bow does work but it takes two or three more hits on average than my L10 and L12 bows and they are taking more hits than they used to.

Imagine if Dragontouched armour could actually be enchanted with continuous Deathward as the rune indicates. That would make it better than any L16 random armour I have ever seen. A tiny change would make a large difference. It would also be a correcion since it is a "Deathward" rune, not a "Deathblock" one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

The advantage to this however, is as you level up your character, you will never need to do a quest or quest arc to get some named gear that will make your character better, as you will be able to get the best gear you need for your character from loot gen alone..

But the players lose one of the main reasons for doing the quests in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

While I think this bad form on Turbines part, that is what they have opted to do with their game.

Perhaps some people at Turbine do want to make improvements but are having trouble figuring out what players actually want. What players say they want is often a different thing from what they really want. Suggestion threads are of little help since posts usually go off on tangents. When the posts stay on-topic they often wind up expanding into complete quest revisions instead of converging on simple solutions that are quick and easy to implement. Even simple improvements to a few pieces of loot could make the rewards from more packs worth the TP and time needed to complete the quests. Everybody wins.
09-20-2014, 04:29 AM
Douglas21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Well, if I am wrong then it is the first time in history because I never make misteaks!

If DDO is similar to games I have worked with in the past then it should just be a matter of loading the item with an editor, changing the fields and saving it. They might even have a drop down menu for the different standard damage choices.

There might be unintended interactions with the code that automatically sets damage dice for Cannith Crafted weapons based on their enhancement value, and getting that interaction right would be extra work requiring programming, not merely item editing. Whether that is actually the case is just speculation on our part, however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Any weapon that has an elemental theme and provides protection should have the same protections as the elemental. The way the Earth bow is now makes the enchanter that created it seem kind of crazy because most Earth Elementals do not have protection from acid. The obvious choice for protection on this bow is the one thing that most Earth Elementals have in common, DR /-. Changing the protection on the bow to DR 15 /- like a Greater Earth Elemental works for me. An alternative would be to delete the protection completely and add more enchantment points to allow the player to have more options for enchanting the Tier 3 version of the bow.

DR/- is common to all elementals, not just earth elementals, so that would be a "generic elemental" bonus rather than a "specific element" bonus. In any case, the theme is about elements, not about elementals. The word "elemental" in the item name is used as an adjective meaning "related to an element", not as a reference to elemental creatures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Before I had armour with Deathblock I used to take a healer that could cast Deathblock or Mass Deathblock. That did not work well against the Beholders in "Invaders!". They just dispelled the Deatblock and then coloured my Ranger dead. After I started wearing Deathblock armour they never dispelled the protection again. Healing was never a problem since my character has always carried a wand, potions, and can cast healing spells. By using all three healing is fairly rapid but it does cost some platinum.

The Visor of the Flesh Render Guards seems to only cast the spell which should be dispellable. That would not be nearly as effective as having continuous non-dispellable Deathward on the armour. The Visor is not something I can "farm" for anyway since I do not own the pack and won't be buying any new ones for a while.

One possible problem with continuous Deathward is that it would be too powerful and some vulnerability to negative energy might have to be added to restore balance. They should change the spell on Dragontouched anyway because the rune has always been labelled "Deathward" and most people know what that means.

Imagine if Dragontouched armour could actually be enchanted with continuous Deathward as the rune indicates. That would make it better than any L16 random armour I have ever seen. A tiny change would make a large difference. It would also be a correcion since it is a "Deathward" rune, not a "Deathblock" one.

The Deathward rune on Dragontouched probably did give actual continuous death ward when it first came out, but back then deathblock did not exist and continuous death ward on items was (I think, I hadn't actually started playing back then myself) common. The developers decided that undispellable death ward on items was in general too powerful, and replaced it game-wide with deathblock. There is not and never will be a continuous death ward item of any kind in the game until and unless they reverse that decision. It is far more likely that they would relabel the rune than that they would restore its effect to full death ward.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

About the Handwraps. I checked both auctions and all pawn shops for them over about a week. The only similar item was Vampiric Handwraps on the shard exchange. I thought about buying them to see if they would work for the bow but chose not to because they were expensive. Decided to cut my losses and go for the Earth bow instead.

They would not have worked, good thing you saved your money. To make the upgraded items yourself, you have to have both base unupgraded items, and all the base items bind to account on acquire. Once upgraded, they become bind to character on equip instead, and are initially unbound. You could potentially find the finished product on auction, but otherwise you have to do the quests yourself.

Your options for acquiring the Petrifying War Bow are:
a) buy it already completed
b) run all the quests yourself on your current character
c) run some of the quests on other characters on the same account and transfer the items through the shared account bank
d) run Eyes of Stone in a group with someone else who has flagged for it. Once another member of your group enters the quest, you should also be able to enter despite not having done its prerequisites. Doing it this way you will not get an end reward or credit for story arc progression, but the Stonedust Wraps come from a chest inside the quest so that doesn't matter for what you want.

Anyway, how named items in heroic levels stack up against lootgen is a systemic problem. The items were introduced a long time ago, the game moved on, and developer attention is focused primarily on new content, with old items getting updated usually only when an automatic system-wide change is made, such as the recent doubling of all item dodge bonuses when those bonuses were made non-stacking. We are unlikely to get item-by-item updating by anything short of a "return to the classics" style release, where an entire major game Update (capital U) is focused on updating old content. If you want to push for that, go for it and I'd be happy to see it happen, but Turbine will likely need some serious convincing that the return on their effort would be worth it.
09-20-2014, 10:04 AM
Scrabbler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

The Deathward rune on Dragontouched probably did give actual continuous death ward when it first came out, but back then deathblock did not exist and continuous death ward on items was (I think, I hadn't actually started playing back then myself) common. The developers decided that undispellable death ward on items was in general too powerful, and replaced it game-wide with deathblock.

Those guesses are basically all incorrect. (Well, they do think undispellable Deathward is too strong, but that was a choice made 7+ years before coding on DDO even started).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

The items were introduced a long time ago, the game moved on, and developer attention is focused primarily on new content, with old items getting updated usually only when an automatic

What's funny is that there was a manual update of named loot that looked at each item and adjusted it by hand (2 or 2.5 years ago), and then 4-6 months later they globally changed random weapons and armor, making all that named loot effort obsolete and incorrect.
09-20-2014, 10:10 AM
Scrabbler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Before I had armour with Deathblock I used to take a healer that could cast Deathblock or Mass Deathblock.

It has never been possible to cast a Deathblock spell in this game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

After I started wearing Deathblock armour they never dispelled the protection again.

Deathblock items give no protection against negative levels, which is the key threat from Beholders. It will stop Finger of Death, but that's a minimal threat to people with regular Fortitude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

They should change the spell on Dragontouched anyway because the rune has always been labelled "Deathward" and most people know what that means.

The dragontouched rune was not originally labelled "Deathward". It was labelled "Eldritch".
09-20-2014, 11:12 AM
Ungood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Well said, Ungood, but it exposes a logical error on their part. One of the main reasons for questing in DDO is to obtain improved gear. It makes no sense for a player to purchase a pack and quest for the items when the items are inferior to what the character already has.

Yah I know, and what is even more disheartening about this, is that many named items got a revamp with the whole "Slot" craze that hit the game, and many named items were given slots and had levels added to them, which was not what I would have called an improvement, in fact many items became worse.

However, even with this messing around with loot, weapons did not get a realistic revamp to keep them inline with Loot Gen increments.

Many things that were at one time top tier, like Dragontouched, have been left to rot and feel behind with all the changes the loot in this game has had done, which is quite sad.

However, the Com Gear that you can get once you get to Evening star pretty much out strips anything you could have gotten in Heroic Content, and then the loot gen takes over after that.

Quote:

Perhaps some people at Turbine do want to make improvements but are having trouble figuring out what players actually want. What players say they want is often a different thing from what they really want. Suggestion threads are of little help since posts usually go off on tangents. When the posts stay on-topic they often wind up expanding into complete quest revisions instead of converging on simple solutions that are quick and easy to implement. Even simple improvements to a few pieces of loot could make the rewards from more packs worth the TP and time needed to complete the quests. Everybody wins.

Yup.

But that's Turbine for you, not to be dismissive, but get used this kind of mentality from them.
09-20-2014, 12:28 PM
BDog77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Well, if I am wrong then it is the first time in history because I never make misteaks!

This was a joke, right? Cause it's funny, right here.
09-21-2014, 02:08 AM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

There might be unintended interactions with the code that automatically sets damage dice for Cannith Crafted weapons based on their enhancement value,[...]

It is possible to use an algorithm to generate a series of weapons but if they did that for the Earthbows then the L16 version shouldn't be 1d8 when the L20 version is 2 [1d8]. It is the 1d8 on the L12 and L16 Earth bows that is out of place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

[,,,] the theme is about elements, not about elementals. The word "elemental" in the item name is used as an adjective meaning "related to an element", not as a reference to elemental creatures.

The flavour text at the bottom of the bow sheet states, "This longbow is part of a mass-produced line of House Cannith weapons with elementals bound to them."

Earth Elementals usually don't have protection from acid but they do generally have DR /-.

Someone chose to use a bound elemental theme but then added a protection that Earth Elementals generally don't have. That seems odd and the protection from acid is not all that useful when questing in the field and especially in combat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

The developers decided that undispellable death ward on items was in general too powerful, and replaced it game-wide with deathblock.

How do you know that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

Your options for acquiring the Petrifying War Bow are:

The option I chose was to abandon the plan and move on to other things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

[...]Turbine will likely need some serious convincing that the return on their effort would be worth it.

Perhaps they are already convinced since the company did ask for player feedback on how to improve the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrabbler

It has never been possible to cast a Deathblock spell in this game.

Of course you are right and thanks for the correction, Scrabbler. What I meant to write was that the Beholders rapidly dispelled the Deathward protection on my character and then proceeded to kill him to pieces. After getting the Deathblock armour my character stopped dying instantly even after the Deathward protection was dispelled.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrabbler

Deathblock items give no protection against negative levels, which is the key threat from Beholders. It will stop Finger of Death, but that's a minimal threat to people with regular Fortitude.

That is why continuous Deathward on the Dragontouched armour would be the cat's pajamas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrabbler

The dragontouched rune was not originally labelled "Deathward". It was labelled "Eldritch".

Okay, but even if that is true it does not change the fact it was "Deathward" when I bought the pack. They owe me the armour with Deathward that I paid for and not the zeroth level Deathblock armour I received.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

Many things that were at one time top tier, like Dragontouched, have been left to rot and feel behind with all the changes the loot in this game has had done, which is quite sad.

However, the Com Gear that you can get once you get to Evening star pretty much out strips anything you could have gotten in Heroic Content, and then the loot gen takes over after that.

Well, I got to Eveningstar at level 14 but I found my Deatblock Feycraft leather in a chest in Eberron. My L16 Deathblock III Spiritcraft leather, however, was purchased at the pawn in Eveningstar.

Sadly, the weapon pawn there rarely has bows at my level and when he does they are generally too weak to use. My armour is okay for L16 but my old bows only work properly in at-level quests when the difficulty is set to casual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

But that's Turbine for you[...]

The company has asked for suggestions and our obligation ends when the suggestions are given. What they do after that is on them and they will be the ones to suffer if they don't find some way to attract and retain new players.
It is not hard to see why so many newcomers leave DDO before reaching the end game. The quests become much harder in the mid-teens and substandard gear for those levels is a big part of the problem. Forcing subsonic newcomers to group with meta-gamers, travelling at point five past lightspeed, in order to get better gear isn't helping much. By the time a newcomer's character's level reaches the middle teens most need good gear that can be obtained solo. Without that gear the quests are much more difficult to complete and many newcomers give up. The solution to most of these problems lies with the developers and not other players.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BDog77

This was a joke, right? Cause it's funny, right here.

No, I never make jokes about personel perfecshon and any one that says different is likely to be a practicing philatelist or, possibly even a prestidigitator. Now stop with these comments before I resemble your remarks, and I am unanimous in that!
09-21-2014, 02:26 AM
Ungood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

It is not hard to see why so many newcomers leave DDO before reaching the end game. The quests become much harder in the mid-teens and substandard gear for those levels is a big part of the problem. Forcing subsonic newcomers to group with meta-gamers, travelling at point five past lightspeed, in order to get better gear isn't helping much. By the time a newcomer's character's level reaches the middle teens most need good gear that can be obtained solo. Without that gear the quests are much more difficult to complete and many newcomers give up. The solution to most of these problems lies with the developers and not other players.

Their solution was "better loot gen". I mean overall it did put better gear in the hands of newer players, after all, your loot gen bow and armor are better then the 'best' named gear I had to play with when I was leveling.

But I still think it was poor forum to just leave the old gear abandoned, it reduces the motive for newer players to want to buy content packs to get the 'better' gear and makes it so that older players have no urge to run the content unless it is high in exp.

Sorry you had to go and do the whole quest arch's to discover that little skeleton in the closet here at DDO.
09-21-2014, 02:38 AM
Lonnbeimnech

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scrabbler

Deathblock items give no protection against negative levels, which is the key threat from Beholders. It will stop Finger of Death, but that's a minimal threat to people with regular Fortitude.

Except when you pass your save and take 900+ points of negative energy damage...
09-22-2014, 02:53 AM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

Their solution was "better loot gen". I mean overall it did put better gear in the hands of newer players, after all, your loot gen bow and armor are better then the 'best' named gear I had to play with when I was leveling..

Thanks for sharing your hands-on experiences, Ungood, that information is golden.

My Spiritcraft amour is excellent L16 armour and my loot gen bow is a terrific L12 bow. Sadly, the bow now often takes three or more hits to kill something like a rat in L16 quests at level and I can't seem to find a better bow. I was saddened to discover that the L16 Earth bow that took so long to get was taking a couple more hits to kill mobs than even my L10 Bow of the Elements (Air). If the Earth bow was tweaked to 1.50 [1d8] it should hit as hard at the L10 bow and if I can then figure out how to craft the Tier 3 version it might even become better than my L12 bow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

But I still think it was poor forum to just leave the old gear abandoned, it reduces the motive for newer players to want to buy content packs to get the 'better' gear and makes it so that older players have no urge to run the content unless it is high in exp.

The company is trying to do more with less people and they still need to provide a constant supply of new content to please subscribers. Altering old content has to be a lower priority but it still might be possible for a few small changes to be made to existing items. Perhaps suggesting what tiny changes should be made to which individual items to motivate players will help. It couldn't hurt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

Sorry you had to go and do the whole quest arch's to discover that little skeleton in the closet here at DDO.

No need to apologize because it is not your fault and It probably is not the developer's fault either. Assigning blame is not a constructive use of time anyway but tweaking a few items could be. Imagine Dragontouched armour with constant effect Deathward. Would that be worth getting, or what? For me, that one tiny change would make the entire quest arch worth the trouble and expense of doing it. As is, my Dragontouched leather is an ornament I keep in the bank until I need the space and have to get rid of it.
09-22-2014, 10:13 AM
Ungood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

No need to apologize because it is not your fault and It probably is not the developer's fault either.

Actually it is, they made a very conscious decision to revamp Loot Gen and many in game effects, it was a large scale project to make it happen. When they added in Scaling Deathblock, it was a deliberate move to make the DT rune DB-0, as opposed to making it DB-10 to show that it was a named item, and thus should have a better ability to it. While I am aware that DB-10 is not death ward, it is still far better then DB-0, which is what can be found on lower level loot gen.

This was directly the fault in the way the developer that handled the loot revision and how it would affect the rest of the game, mainly named gear and items.

Truth is, they could and should have revamped the DT runes when they revised how effects worked in the game, but they directly opted not to. This was not an oversight, this was them deliberately ignoring an entire pack and gear series, as you will note that other packs like say Orchard,Sands, the named gear has slots, this was yet another gear revamp done directly to named items, which Dragon Touched was again ignored during, and IMHO was in the most need.

So no, it was directly the fault of whoever was in charge of dealing with the many loot changes. And while your suggestion is a decent one, it won't happen. Not because of you, or the quality of your idea, but because what you have put out has been suggested many times before, and they chose to ignore it then.
09-22-2014, 11:44 AM
harry-pancreas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Thanks for making an on-topic post, Grailhawk.

The specifications of a bow are important but since the target is part of the calculation I always do extensive empirical testing before adding it to the list of bows I carry. The Earth bow did not perform as well as my current bows so I parked it in the bank until it is fixed or I reach L20 and can get the 2 [1d8] version. Correcting the Earth bow should not take much effort since 1.50 [1d8] is a standard type. Changing the protection to DR X /- like an Earth Elemental should be simple too. Everyone would benefit from these tiny changes.

My Ranger has a healing sceptre since the other prizes for completing "Invaders!" made no sense at all for a Ranger. The way my character has evolved proteciton from death effects needs to be on the armour.

My old Feycraft armour had Deathblock III but its AC protection was not the best in L16 quests. Dragontouched offered better protection and Deathward instead of Deathblock. So I bought the pack to get the armour and obtain a Deathward rune. After spending a great many hours obtaining the items imagine my shock and dismay when the "Deathward" rune applied Deathblock [0] to the armour instead of Deathward as indicated. At that point I fully understood why so few people buy that pack anymore.

Now I have L16 Spriticraft that matches the base specifications of Dragontouched and came with Deathblock III. The Dragontouched is parked in the bank until I decide what to do with it.

Deathward is a standard spell and can easily be added to the armour. It is just a matter of editing the armour object, selecting the correct spell, and making it continuous, constant effect, or whatever the case might be. If that makes the item too powerful then it would be a simple to add back a 50% vulnerability to negative spell power. A tiny change to the armour would dramatically improve its utility. Everyone would benefit from this tiny change.

as someone said, do your homework, no ugly susprises.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Dragontouched_Armor
Rune of DW = DB

my suggestion: if you want to play this game as you did PnP with a "fleshie" DM, you will be dissapointed.
09-22-2014, 11:57 AM
Thrudh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

My solution to the problem was to abandon the quest but why is almost every poster talking about the morality of the quest when the thread is about suggested ways to improve gear?

Your "solution" didn't get you a bow.

And stating that anyone who completed that quest should immediately become "chaotic evil" means you really don't understand D&D alignment as well as you think you do.
09-23-2014, 12:10 PM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

Actually it is, they made a very conscious decision to revamp Loot Gen and many in game effects.

It is great that you care enough about this game to stick around and try to fix it. The ultimate responsibility for how DDO evolved lies with the developers and they will be the ones to suffer for their mistakes. All that players can do is suggest improvements and hope the better ones are adopted. If good suggestions are ignored then we will have done all we can and can do no more. Most of your posts seem to be about improving the game and that is the best you can do too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

While I am aware that DB-10 is not death ward, it is still far better then DB-0, which is what can be found on lower level loot gen.

Even DB-3 would work better for me making the Dragontouched as good as my random armour. Continuous Deathward would make it better as long as they don't gimp it too much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

[...] what you have put out has been suggested many times before, and they chose to ignore it then.

The gaming industy has been in decline for quite some time. As an owner of the original "horse armor" I know that some companies institutionalized customer abuse several years ago. Despite almost universal condemnation of the armour and the term appearing in several urban dictionaries the horse armor remained a necessity that cost real money. Suggestions to make the armour available for game currency were ignored as I expect suggestions to improve Dragontouched in DDO will be. As the old saying goes "Hwa is thet mei thet hors wettrien the him self nule drinken [who can give water to the horse that will not drink of its own accord?]" See http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/y...-to-water.html
09-23-2014, 12:21 PM
bsquishwizzy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Named gear should be better than random gear. It should be and needs to be but often it is not.

I stopped reading this at this point.

The VAST majority of named gear is FAR more powerful than random stuff. Your premise is all wrong. Unless you just happened to be lucky enough to get a couple pieces of specialized random gear before they hosed the random loot system in U20 (?), your average pull from a chest is going straight to a vendor.

Plus, they are slowly upgrading named loot in the quests, adding augments, and so on. You just don’t hear much about it.
09-26-2014, 07:02 PM
Asurax2001

Waaye,

I agree with you that some of the named items seem a little "tame," but I can see the point of people who claim that some of them are being revamped as specific quests are updated. (Personally I would love to see Cannith Crafting get an overhaul even more than named loot in general.)

However, I'd like to offer you a "plot recommendation" with respect to your strict alignment role-playing, which is something I do as well (to some extent anyway). I avoid "Purge the Heretics" because its storyline doesn't fit with what I want to think of my character; it would be nice if that quest gave you the option to join with the "cult," and help them repel an attack by Gnomon instead. (In which case maybe you would get favor from a different patron with friends in the cult -- maybe The Free Agents -- instead of The Silver Flame.)

I think you're missing an opportunity with Attack on Stormreach, especially since you've already spent money on it. Remember, turning someone to stone is not killing them; otherwise "Stone to Flesh" would always have to be followed by "Resurrection." Which means those statues you leave behind aren't simply evidence -- they are *witnesses*.

Here is the "internal" storyline I made up for my own character, after playing through "Frame Work" as a Bladeforged Paladin.

"I don't know what Dorris was thinking ... nobody is going to mistake a walking wall of Adamantine swinging a greatsword for a medusa, even in the heat of battle. The only way this would work is if I snuck around and did everything in secret, so that even the stoned minotaurs never knew what hit them. But I'm no spineless assassin ... for one thing I look horrible in black. So I fixed one of those convenient ballistae they left lying around, launched myself into the middle of their 'fortress' (was gonna be a tomb soon if they weren't careful), roared my allegiance to my God into the sky, and declared my intent to protect Stormreach before their temporarily surprised faces.

"They had the opportunity to flee. Or to forswear their alliance to that medusa scum. Instead they chose to doubt my faith and challenge my strength, and thus the blood began flowing. (Sure, a little of my oil flowed too ... I am my God's champion, but not immortal, and it makes him more proud if I fight on even against enemies that can injure me.)

"But I had to send a message as well. If I simply left the entire population dead, then there would be minimal benefit to the citizens in Stormreach praying for my assistance. So I walked right up to one of the minotaurs and, even as he tried to cut me down himself, leveled the wand at his face and turned him to stone. Then I did it to a second one right beside him -- so that he would have seen exactly what happened to the first just before it happened to him. That was my message; your alliance to that wicked medusa, and your plans to help her invade our city, are what brought this divine wrath down on your horny heads.

"After it was over, the only minotaurs I left alive were the ones I had turned to stone; I even rang every bell in that fortress, just to make sure every warrior there had an opportunity to repent or be judged. I knew that the first of the medusa's other allies to come upon this slaughter would immediately bring in someone with 'Stone to Flesh' to find out what had happened. And then they would know exactly who did this, and the meaning of turning just a few of them to stone as witnesses would not be lost on them. It would then be up to them to continue with their plans, or pay better heed to my warning than the minotaurs did.

"Back at Stormreach, the general consensus was that the medusa had lost her allies because they blamed her for the attack. Rumors are free and easily spread, and good news travels particularly fast when everyone is in fear. But that was ok, let them think the worst of those monsters; it's not as though distrust and backstabbing is rare among their kind. But I knew the truth. The medusa lost her allies because they have learned to fear my righteous blade. As they should."

(Edit: Sorry, bad memory ... this was in his Warforged incarnation, before I resurrected into a Bladeforged. I think I was still lvl 13 or 14 when I ran this quest, although doing it solo I was definitely over the quest level. But the idea behind not acting like an assassin or framing someone else for your actions is still equally valid.)
09-26-2014, 09:36 PM
Ungood

Quote:

Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy

I stopped reading this at this point.

The VAST majority of named gear is FAR more powerful than random stuff.

You are incorrect Sir.

Loot Gen currently has the best numbers in the game, and since worn slots have have dual colors, that means you have 4 ability Loot-gen, still dropping today, which makes it better then pretty much all your named gear in the epic game, and, even level 16 Loot Gen weapons have a better damage profile then Heroic Level Raid gear.

Sure, a lot of loot-gen goes to the vendor, not because it is worse then named, but because there are better loot-gen combos that are more sought after.
09-27-2014, 12:46 AM
droid327

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

You are incorrect Sir.

Loot Gen currently has the best numbers in the game, and since worn slots have have dual colors, that means you have 4 ability Loot-gen, still dropping today, which makes it better then pretty much all your named gear in the epic game, and, even level 16 Loot Gen weapons have a better damage profile then Heroic Level Raid gear.

Sure, a lot of loot-gen goes to the vendor, not because it is worse then named, but because there are better loot-gen combos that are more sought after.

Depends if you're talking endgame or not, and if not, what level range you're talking about. Yes, lootgen has eclipsed many older named items that have not been updated and have fallen victim to power creep in the years since they were first released. However, by Epic, lootgen returns to its "proper" place underneath named items, even easily-acquired ones like ES comm gear and TF.

For non-endgame items, ones that you only use for a certain level range then outgrow, its harder to balance game design. Lootgen is easily acquired (though good combinations are still rare), but named items can still require a great deal of grinding. If a named item is markedly better than lootgen, its probably going to be more difficult to acquire, and most players will simply skip the hassle and just stick with the slighty worse but still perfectly adequate lootgen until they can use a better item at some higher level. Conversely, if you make named items both awesome *and* easily acquired, you're just perpetutating power creep and further trivializing non-endgame questing.

Its a very hard balance to strike, because players are much less willing to invest time and effort for an item that's ultimately disposable, but its that time and effort that makes it warranted to add really nice named items.
09-27-2014, 08:14 PM
Ungood

Quote:

Originally Posted by droid327

Depends if you're talking endgame or not, and if not, what level range you're talking about. Yes, lootgen has eclipsed many older named items that have not been updated and have fallen victim to power creep in the years since they were first released. However, by Epic, lootgen returns to its "proper" place underneath named items, even easily-acquired ones like ES comm gear and TF.

No way. By level 28, when you would be using Thunder Forged, if you wanted the best stat items in the game, you are already outfitted in Loot-Gen save maybe a few items. Simply put, Loot gen eclipses all the previous gear you will have obtained, and will remain BiS, unless Turbine starts to put out a lot more "raid" gear at the end game.

Quote:

For non-endgame items, ones that you only use for a certain level range then outgrow, its harder to balance game design. Lootgen is easily acquired (though good combinations are still rare), but named items can still require a great deal of grinding. If a named item is markedly better than lootgen, its probably going to be more difficult to acquire, and most players will simply skip the hassle and just stick with the slighty worse but still perfectly adequate lootgen until they can use a better item at some higher level. Conversely, if you make named items both awesome *and* easily acquired, you're just perpetutating power creep and further trivializing non-endgame questing.

Its a very hard balance to strike, because players are much less willing to invest time and effort for an item that's ultimately disposable, but its that time and effort that makes it warranted to add really nice named items.

Or they could have made the decision to not revamp Loot-gen as the existing system was well balanced to begin with. The decision to revamp Loot-gen was a deliberate one and one they knew would destroy the value of named and raid gear in the heroic levels. They had a working balanced system, they chose to put in the time and effort to destroy that balance.
09-28-2014, 12:40 AM
Douglas21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

No way. By level 28, when you would be using Thunder Forged, if you wanted the best stat items in the game, you are already outfitted in Loot-Gen save maybe a few items. Simply put, Loot gen eclipses all the previous gear you will have obtained, and will remain BiS, unless Turbine starts to put out a lot more "raid" gear at the end game.

All right, I'll bite. What is this miraculous lootgen that would be an upgrade on the following gear my level 28 character is wearing:
Green Steel Goggles (45 hp, displacement clicky, smoke screen, and skill bonuses I don't particularly care about)
Battlerager's Harness
Adamantine Cloak of the Bear (mainly for the trip DC)
Orcish Privateer Boots
Nether Grasps
Necklace of Mystic Eidolons
Seal of House Dun'Robar (insight str and trip)
Epic Treasure Hunter's Spyglass tier 3
Purple Dragon Shield
Flawless Shadow Guardian Full Plate

If I didn't have Greater Convalescent Bracers of Superior Parrying (which are no longer generated), that slot would have Dumathoin's Bracers.

I'll grant you the Ring of Accuracy in my other ring slot, but that's the only present-day lootgen item I have equipped.

Sure, top-end lootgen might give bonuses a tiny bit higher to some things, but at the cost of losing one or even more entire other bonuses, some of which aren't available on lootgen at all.
09-28-2014, 08:17 AM
Ungood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

All right, I'll bite. What is this miraculous lootgen that would be an upgrade on the following gear my level 28 character is wearing:

Green Steel Goggles (45 hp, displacement clicky, smoke screen, and skill bonuses I don't particularly care about)

I have Deadly 10 Goggles of the Archmagi, with dual slots, that I have Toughness and GoM in.

Sure, top-end lootgen might give bonuses a tiny bit higher to some things, but at the cost of losing one or even more entire other bonuses, some of which aren't available on lootgen at all.

I could list more ways to upgrade your gear and optimize your numbers, but you asked me where you are lacking, and that was the first item on your list.

I mean, for example, the Orc Boots are nice, but really, Fire resist, FoM, and Speed, all handy, but unless you plan to get set aflame a lot or have a very poor will save and get held a lot and need the FoM, they are not much, I mean Str 10 Boots of Speed VII would do you better for most dungeon runs.

I don't know about you, but I use haste pots for fighting, so the Speed is just for the 30% Striding to me, imho, the "speed" effect was just an annoyance that made striding items outdated as far as I loot at them.

But, Sure, you can get a few extra effects on your named loot, but that only matters if those effects matter.
09-28-2014, 01:29 PM
Douglas21

Deadly 10? My Dragon Masque (which I somehow missed listing, sorry) has Deadly 11. Archmagi? 250 spell point yellow augment. Toughness? 20 hp is less than 45, and I can slot it in one of the numerous augment slots on my other gear if really needed. Gift of the Master? I'm level 28, I already have all the experience I need, and if I didn't I have augment slots elsewhere. And then there's the permanent blur and displacement clicky, which I'm pretty sure no lootgen has ever had, and don't try to tell me those aren't important unless there's a point past which every random mob in the game has True Seeing.

Str 10 I'll grant is better than what I have, but only because augments don't go above 8. Those extra 2 points of strength would get me +1 attack and +1 damage. Nice, but not huge. Meanwhile, FoM gives me immunity to a number of things that don't offer saves in the first place, guarantees even a nat 1 won't get me held, realistically probably does a fair bit more because I don't have paladin saves, 30% fire absorb is very nice in the rather large number of quests where enemies use fire against you (especially Fire on Thunder Peak), and it has an augment slot.

Yes, haste pots are better than Speed X, and if I really want to maximize my combat power I should use them, but they're annoying to have to keep paying attention to and refreshing with their 30 second duration and the extra margin isn't all that big. Even if I did start using them a lot, Speed X is a good fallback in case of dispel or forgetting to renew in time.
09-28-2014, 05:01 PM
Ungood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Douglas21

Deadly 10? My Dragon Masque (which I somehow missed listing, sorry) has Deadly 11. Archmagi? 250 spell point yellow augment. Toughness? 20 hp is less than 45, and I can slot it in one of the numerous augment slots on my other gear if really needed. Gift of the Master? I'm level 28, I already have all the experience I need, and if I didn't I have augment slots elsewhere. And then there's the permanent blur and displacement clicky, which I'm pretty sure no lootgen has ever had, and don't try to tell me those aren't important unless there's a point past which every random mob in the game has True Seeing.

Str 10 I'll grant is better than what I have, but only because augments don't go above 8. Those extra 2 points of strength would get me +1 attack and +1 damage. Nice, but not huge. Meanwhile, FoM gives me immunity to a number of things that don't offer saves in the first place, guarantees even a nat 1 won't get me held, realistically probably does a fair bit more because I don't have paladin saves, 30% fire absorb is very nice in the rather large number of quests where enemies use fire against you (especially Fire on Thunder Peak), and it has an augment slot.

Yes, haste pots are better than Speed X, and if I really want to maximize my combat power I should use them, but they're annoying to have to keep paying attention to and refreshing with their 30 second duration and the extra margin isn't all that big. Even if I did start using them a lot, Speed X is a good fallback in case of dispel or forgetting to renew in time.

Since you listed your gear, I suspect that you are very proud if it, and this response confirms that, no doubt you put a lot of time and effort into it, in that front, You're gear is fine, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with it, but the current greatest tragedy of the game is that you could optimize better with Loot-gen and that is a downright shame.

The main problem here is that with Loot gen, you could get +10 to all your stats, as well as a base +10 saves, +15 saves to areas you might need the most help. Since all Loot-gen can have at least one Slot and a lot of it can be dual slot, there is no shortage of additional abilities anyone can keep adding to your gear to optimize it. I mean when you can have 10 yellow, 10 Colorless (Dual Slot Rings, Belt, Helm, Goggles gives you 10, that way you can keep using a named Trinket,Cloak, Necklace, and your old Loot-gen Bracers), you can pretty much put in whatever you want. It would be little effort from that point to have 250 Base SP and 40 to all Resists and still have 5 slots open for named Augments or add in things like Deathblock, Underwater Action, Fear and Blindness Immunity, Etc, you have have a lot of Options at this point. Mix that with the colorless augments and you suddenly have +8 to all stats that you did not want a +10 in, and +15 to whatever skills you need the most, since you have abundant slots you can toss in some +2 Insight Augments for when you want that bit more, suddenly Loot-Gen is rocking some serious bonuses there. It's some scary stuff on how much power you can pack into Loot-Gen these days at the end game, and lets be real here, that is not how things should be in this game.
10-01-2014, 01:46 AM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asurax2001

Waaye,I agree with you that some of the named items seem a little "tame,"

Thanks for sharing your insights Asurax2001.

The three items I mentioned in the first post were not only "tame" but virtually unusable because the items my character already had were noticably better. My L12 lootgen bow was terrific at L12 but it lacks stopping-power in some of the L16 quests. To compensate for this lack of power I have been taking a regular hireling and one or two Gold Seal hirelings along in some of the harder quests. To continue playing it seems I have no choice but to buy increasing numbers of Gold Seal hireling contracts because I am too slow to group and can't find better gear. That is too bad because I was saving the TP I purchased for significant game content and not a bunch of one-hour Gold Seal hireling contracts. Better gear would reduce the number of contracts I need to buy for real money and then I could afford to play more often.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asurax2001

[...]I can see the point of people who claim that some of them are being revamped as specific quests are updated. (Personally I would love to see Cannith Crafting get an overhaul even more than named loot in general.)

Revamping things will take time but making tiny changes to existing items now should be quick and easy. There is no reason that the items I mentioned could not be changed right away and the revamping of the entire quest done later. The second does not prevent the first and some tiny changes now might encourage more newcomers to continue playing until they reach level 20 when better gear is available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asurax2001

However, I'd like to offer you a "plot recommendation" with respect to your strict alignment role-playing,

My characters always adhere to the alignment scheme that was in place when I started playing; Law, Neutrality, and Chaos. In those days Law and Chaos were not opposites but compliments. Entities taking a Law stance would work together for the common good but Chaos entities could not be trusted to cooperate with anyone including other Chaos entities. Alignments were often only known to the referees for gameplay purposes and sometimes players had no easy way to know if a Minotaur followed Neutrality or Chaos before interacting with them. Even if a monster did have a Chaos alignment they still could not be assumed to be part of some sort of army of evil minions to be attacked on sight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asurax2001

I think you're missing an opportunity with Attack on Stormreach, especially since you've already spent money on it.

Today's alignments are more complex than before but the new is derived from the old. Stoning an innocent minotaur to "Frame" an ambassador would be a Chaotic crime whether the victim dies or not. Killing the minotaur Chieftan without provication in his own village is an Evil act akin to murder. Even if the quest were rewritten to eliminate the crimes I still wouldn't want the bow because it looks like it is too weak for its level.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asurax2001

Here is the "internal" storyline I made up for my own character, after playing through "Frame Work" as a Bladeforged Paladin.

That is a great story. It is well written, interesting, and enjoyable. Thanks for posting it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asurax2001

But the idea behind not acting like an assassin or framing someone else for your actions is still equally valid.

In many modern computer games if alignment exists it is often cosmetic. That does not mean, however, that my characters cannot act in accordance with their alignment even if the game allows characters to get away with murder.
10-01-2014, 05:36 AM
Kaiserkreuz

Guess Turbine is very lazy on updating and standardizing named loots in having increased damage class and augment slot or any update on them. They did update some named loots from certain quests and ad pack way back in Update 17 http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_17_named_items and thought back then they would update all named loot accordingly. But after like 6 updates still no changes to some named loots in getting improvements and augment slots in certain adventure packs people pay to get some ad packs or be in VIP so at least they should accordingly do some updates and improvement since some packs are left to be obsolete and forgotten. Some people just don't run quest for ex anyway.

Turbine releasing always something new without even trying to update the old ones accordingly and always get the feeling why do even bother trying to wish for them to improve things since they won't even do a thing about it.
10-02-2014, 04:19 AM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaiserkreuz

[...]Turbine releasing always something new without even trying to update the old ones accordingly and always get the feeling why do even bother trying to wish for them to improve things since they won't even do a thing about it.

Well, Kaiserkreuz, Turbine does need to continously add new content to keep their subscribers interested. That must be consuming the majority of the man-hours they have available. Retaining subscribers, however, will not be enough and they must also attract and retain new players. Improving some of the L14 to L19 gear should help with that. The best we can do is make suggestions and hope that some of them are adopted.
10-02-2014, 08:28 AM
Ungood

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waaye

Well, Kaiserkreuz, Turbine does need to continously add new content to keep their subscribers interested. That must be consuming the majority of the man-hours they have available. Retaining subscribers, however, will not be enough and they must also attract and retain new players. Improving some of the L14 to L19 gear should help with that. The best we can do is make suggestions and hope that some of them are adopted.

Some of those "Updates" however were not improvements. In many cases they raised the ML of the item and this made is less attractive, a lot of named gear is attractive due to it's low ML as well, and in a game like DDO with such a large TR aspect in it, a low ML makes gear very attractive.
10-02-2014, 01:11 PM
Waaye

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

Some of those "Updates" however were not improvements. In many cases they raised the ML of the item and this made is less attractive,

Well, Ungood, the raised ML did affect me directly. Back when my Ranger was L7 he carried Giant's Roar as his main bow. It was a great bow but there was the occasional mob it was weak against. At that point I decided to go questing for the L6 Silver Longbow. It was hard to get and my character died more times than he succeeded but he eventually obtained the shiny new bow. Imagine my shock when my L7 character could not equip the L8 bow! After frantically searching my keyboard for a "do it anyway" key I came to understand they had raised the ML of the bow and I had to wait a level to use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ungood

[,,,]a lot of named gear is attractive due to it's low ML as well, and in a game like DDO with such a large TR aspect in it, a low ML makes gear very attractive.

My Ranger is my first character and I am still doing the quests for the first time. So far, I have not TRed or played much with alternate characters. My suggested improvements to gear were to assist newcomers in making it to the end-game where they can TR, level alts, and all those things. A significant proportion of players that joined when DDO went F2P did not make it past L14. Mediocre mid-game gear seems to have contributed to the exodus.

Changing Dragontouched to actually have the continuous Deathward the rune indicates would help new players survive the mid-game quests and make it to the end-game. Altering the Earth bow to 1.50 [1d8] and changing the protection to DRX /- would do the same for Rangers. [Elemental themed protection makes sense for defensive items like armor but not so much for offensive items like weapons. It is hard to imagine a circumstance when protection from the weapon's own primary element would be useful. Think about it.]

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