20 seconds duration of enhancements is meaningless

I understand that the game mechanics are going far from the original spirit of the d20 system on wish DDO is based.
But "20 seconds" is something totally our of context.

Why the duration of most enhancements (action boost for first) is not based on the "round" and "turn" as spells do?

i.e. the spell haste lasts 1 round /caster level: it means 6 seconds/caster level
buff spells normally last 1 turn (10 rounds) / caster level: it means 1 minute /caster level

Enhancements should follow a duration rule based on rounds and level of the class the enhancement belongs to.

20 seconds is meaningless.

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Originally Posted by MagicBlue

I understand that the game mechanics are going far from the original spirit of the d20 system on wish DDO is based.
But "20 seconds" is something totally our of context.

Why the duration of most enhancements (action boost for first) is not based on the "round" and "turn" as spells do?

i.e. the spell haste lasts 1 round /caster level: it means 6 seconds/caster level
buff spells normally last 1 turn (10 rounds) / caster level: it means 1 minute /caster level

Enhancements should follow a duration rule based on rounds and level of the class the enhancement belongs to.

20 seconds is meaningless.

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I agree that they should scale, (or be flat buffed for being a high level full bab character.)
I actually suggested to buff them before, but either went unnoticed or just been ignored as a possibility.

They eventually went with having more clicks.

What is really bothersome is many of these boosts are exclusive, and you have to choose between them even if it makes absolutely no sense. Actually one good step to get melee in line with caster types would be doing away with boost exclusiveness.

Getting 1minute/click on a pure Fighter, that alone would be good reason to stay with the class, add in multi boosts, and you just made them viable with little to no effort. Well, as far ass offense goes.


Would love to hear a Developer why do i have to choose between haste boost, or one cut? Getting me half a [W] would overpower me? Would i rid the casters from the happiness of aoe instakills? While grinding down 10k hps with +5-6 dmg per hit more at a time?

Hmm? Devs?

1 second per character level sounds good, so say 12 seconds at level 12 and 28 seconds at 28 etc...

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Originally Posted by Miow

1 second per character level sounds good, so say 12 seconds at level 12 and 28 seconds at 28 etc...

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It needs a flat base amount, otherwise it's useless at low levels.

So, say, 15 seconds + 1 second per character level.

It's fine the way it is. A 20 second boost is more than enough time to cut down a whole pack of trash or do serious damage to a boss. (in regards to haste boosts, doublestrike boosts, damage boosts, etc). Maybe sprint boosts could be a little longer, but this is a minor issue.

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Originally Posted by MagicBlue

I understand that the game mechanics are going far from the original spirit of the d20 system on wish DDO is based.
But "20 seconds" is something totally our of context.

Why the duration of most enhancements (action boost for first) is not based on the "round" and "turn" as spells do?

i.e. the spell haste lasts 1 round /caster level: it means 6 seconds/caster level
buff spells normally last 1 turn (10 rounds) / caster level: it means 1 minute /caster level

Enhancements should follow a duration rule based on rounds and level of the class the enhancement belongs to.

20 seconds is meaningless.

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1) Round and Turn in D&D are synonymous. Neverwinter Nights is the game series that came up with the idea that a round is 6 seconds and a turn is 10 rounds (though round/turns in D&D /ARE/ 6 seconds!). If this changed in 4.0, I wouldn't know. Didn't play it.

2) If we tied everything to rounds, your haste should last 1 second/level and a haste boost therefore lasts 20 rounds. This is because a 'round' in D&D is 6 seconds game time, but the same actions that take a round in D&D can occur in one second in DDO. A good basis for this is rolling a caster. You can only cast one spell per round while not quickened (and quicken doesn't actually let you cast more spells in a given time as a sorcerer, who are more limited by global cooldown), global cooldown is 1 second. Therefore 1 round = 1 second. Action boosts last 20 rounds and buffs last much too long.

Edit: Not that I'm completely opposed to buffing action boosts (though they don't really need them--the purpose of the 20s duration is their 30s cooldown. They have a 2/3rds up-time. If you made them last 40s, their cooldown would be 60s), just, the reasoning you presented for them wasn't very sound.

20 seconds is far from useless on haste boost or damage boost; but yeah it would be nice if they scaled with level so they lasted longer in higher/epic levels. With 20 seconds at least you don't have to "time it just right" when you are moving around in combat like some other clickies.

i been dumping any 20 second boosts from my list ....just dam boost is stil there on 1 or 2.Skill bost on thf ,but really ,you r lucky to get two traps in 20 seconds ,if you need to search also.

And how many attacks do you get in a round, compared to the D&D P&P counterpart of your character?

If DDO followed that, melee would be un-save-able.

I find it too much of a nuisance to use action boosts and tend to forget to use them, except on the longer fights.

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Originally Posted by Varinon

1) Round and Turn in D&D are synonymous. Neverwinter Nights is the game series that came up with the idea that a round is 6 seconds and a turn is 10 rounds (though round/turns in D&D /ARE/ 6 seconds!). If this changed in 4.0, I wouldn't know. Didn't play it.

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Round and Turn are most definitely NOT synonymous in D&D!

As far back as 2nd Ed. a Turn was 1 minute!

There were 10 rounds to a Turn - and guess what 1/10th of 1 minute is...Yep...That's right...It's 6 Seconds!

There were spells in the base Player's Handbook in the early 1990s that had Casting Times in Turns as well as spells that had casting times in rounds, spells that had casting times in hours and those that had casting times in initiative!


Back in 1st Ed. I believe a round was actually 1 minute and a Turn 10 minutes - Yet again 1 Turn = 10 Rounds! This got changed early in 2nd Ed. to the rules we still use today!

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Originally Posted by MagicBlue

I understand that the game mechanics are going far from the original spirit of the d20 system on wish DDO is based.
But "20 seconds" is something totally our of context.

Why the duration of most enhancements (action boost for first) is not based on the "round" and "turn" as spells do?

i.e. the spell haste lasts 1 round /caster level: it means 6 seconds/caster level
buff spells normally last 1 turn (10 rounds) / caster level: it means 1 minute /caster level

Enhancements should follow a duration rule based on rounds and level of the class the enhancement belongs to.

20 seconds is meaningless.

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To me the real issue is the delay in attack when I use a combat clicky. If there is a 2 second delay, a 30% damage boost for 20 seconds is really only a 20% boost in damage. With a 2 second delay, a 10% boost for 20 seconds would actually be 0 extra damage.

There are ways to get these 20 second timer uses to regenerate, so I don't see the short duration as an issue.

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Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

Round and Turn are most definitely NOT synonymous in D&D!

As far back as 2nd Ed. a Turn was 1 minute!

There were 10 rounds to a Turn - and guess what 1/10th of 1 minute is...Yep...That's right...It's 6 Seconds!

There were spells in the base Player's Handbook in the early 1990s that had Casting Times in Turns as well as spells that had casting times in rounds, spells that had casting times in hours and those that had casting times in initiative!


Back in 1st Ed. I believe a round was actually 1 minute and a Turn 10 minutes - Yet again 1 Turn = 10 Rounds! This got changed early in 2nd Ed. to the rules we still use today!

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Well, at least in 3.0 and 3.5 they're synonymous. Forgive me for not knowing earlier versions, 3.0's the earliest I've played.

In 3.0 and 3.5, however, the concept of a 'turn' does not exist. Compare this: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:How_Combat_Works

with spells that would last '1 turn' such as Speak With Animals and you can see it clearly says '1 minute' not '1 turn'.

So, sorry if it was different in earlier editions, but 3rd edition (which DDO is based off) does not have turns.

The O in DDO stands for Online. Its not "D&D played remotely via the Internet".

Its D&D, converted to an MMO. That means that some elements expressed one way as PnP rules are going to be translated to MMO rules and conventions. Translated, not transliterated. I get tired of all the "make this work exactly like it does in 3.5, even if that makes no sense within the context of an MMO!".

Linear d20 rolls arent flexible and granular enough compared to logarithmic percentages. You cant roll a CE character and backstab your party mid-quest. And you wont ever get Fly added to your spellbook.

I don't really see any relevance in translating PnP timescale to DDO.

In general, I feel like the 20 seconds is a nice little turbo boost, enough to give me that little edge when I want it. I could really go for less activation delay though. I'd like to be able to pound them while attacking and not see even the slightest interruption.

I really have to laugh at the 6 second ones. Poor Tempests. I mean, yes, it's powerful...but 6s...hahahaha...

That being said, I think it's a nice suggestion for Fighter or some Action Boost oriented class/race thing to bump boosts to 30 seconds (or +50%, so it's a little flexible).

Yea, 20 seconds is way to short. I would like them lasting about a minute or so (maybe 20+class/character level?) that would be about 50 seconds at 30 level.

Only thing I really use is the sprint and haste boosts, and only because I have nothing else to do while fighting/shooting.

Would be nice if you could actually have some use from your buffs, instead of killing like 4 mobs and running out.(I know my build sucks).

I think 20 second action boosts are just right. They last long enough to do their thing, but not long enough to be a reliance.

I would like to see some scaling as well. I usually avoid (or forget) clicky skills with short durations.

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Originally Posted by nokowi

If there is a 2 second delay, a 30% damage boost for 20 seconds is really only a 20% boost in damage. With a 2 second delay, a 10% boost for 20 seconds would actually be 0 extra damage.

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What? That's not how math works!

20 seconds is pretty darn long, especially if you think of a kensei in LD who probably has around 12 action boosts per rest and doesn't have to wait 10 seconds between uses. That's 4 full minutes of action boost, uninterrupted, per shrine.

Though I could get on board for some minimal scaling for epics:

20 seconds + 1 second per epic level (defined as starting at level 21)

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Originally Posted by nokowi

To me the real issue is the delay in attack when I use a combat clicky. If there is a 2 second delay, a 30% damage boost for 20 seconds is really only a 20% boost in damage. With a 2 second delay, a 10% boost for 20 seconds would actually be 0 extra damage.

There are ways to get these 20 second timer uses to regenerate, so I don't see the short duration as an issue.

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Yeah man that is me too. I am still using some boosts but I hate the delay. And heaven forbid if you aren't using auto attack and the boost you want isn't on the primary bar...stop swinging, move mouse pointer to boost, click it, then back to screen to swing.

Baaah.

You should assign boosts to easy shortcuts ( like alt+1, shift+1 or one of those fancy gaming mouse buttons ), don't mouse click it ( well, clicking any melee attack/ability is recipe for disaster, better use mouse for precise movement or camera control ).
Double boost if possible ( haste+dmg ), hit both hotkeys in quick succession, immediately Cleave or Sunder to get rid of the delay.

It's not perfect, but pretty fluid in combat.

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Originally Posted by nokowi

To me the real issue is the delay in attack when I use a combat clicky. If there is a 2 second delay, a 30% damage boost for 20 seconds is really only a 20% boost in damage. With a 2 second delay, a 10% boost for 20 seconds would actually be 0 extra damage.

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Originally Posted by Avenging_Angel

What? That's not how math works!

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Unfortunately it does, if you remember that animations prevent you from doing ANY damage. It depends, though, if the 20-second counter starts before or after the 2-second animation:

If you have 2 seconds of 0% damage and 18 seconds of 130% damage, then you only end up doing 117% more damage than 20 seconds of unboosted attacks.
If you have 2 seconds of 0% damage and 20 seconds of 130% damage, then you only end up doing 118% more damage than 22 seconds of unboosted attacks.

If you have 2 seconds of 0% damage and 18 seconds of 110% damage, then you only end up doing 99% of unboosted attacks - you actually lose DPS.
If you have 2 seconds of 0% damage and 20 seconds of 110% damage, then you break even, back at 100%.

That's why ABs are animation-less. Anything with a long animation (ie Endless Fusillade, Dirge) is only really worthwhile as an alpha strike, so you can do the animation part out-of-combat.

I keep them on the main bar where I can- however depending on what destiny im running sometimes I just don't have room for everything I need fast access to on the main bar. For example, if im running in dreadnaught I don't keep damage boost or the..unbreakable I think it is (the one that causes less damage received). So it just really depends..those are important and I like to pop them off in fights from time to time but if for some reason I stop myself from auto attack then I loose all the time it takes to click around on top of the standard combat delay with pressing the button.

Nah not a huge deal, just aggravating.

Everyone who has access to damage/haste boosts uses them, ergo they are not meaningless.

If you still think they are meaningless, spend points on other, static bonuses, there are plenty, especially when you multiclass.

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Originally Posted by Chai

And how many attacks do you get in a round, compared to the D&D P&P counterpart of your character?

If DDO followed that, melee would be un-save-able.

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^

or, we buff boosts by having a scaling increasing duration as suggested. know whatll happen? if there is not micromanagement and maintenance or decision making on using them we will be permanently spell power boosted, and permanently dmg and haste boosted. that would make parties practically unkillable except by one shots or environmental dmg. but if you want me permanently power of the forged and haste boosting, stealing all your kills, well, i wont complain.

quickdraw eliminates boosting delay.

Trying to imagine my monchar with a minute haste boost or damage boost, manyshot, and everything else going at once.

I imagine it would be quite overpowered.

I think some should have a longer duration: skill boost, AC boost, saves boost, movement boost.

Some should not: Damage boost, spell power boost, haste boost in particular.

Unless it was something unlocked in the Kensai tree with 18 levels of fighter or maybe even be part of the fighter capstone for pure 20s.

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Originally Posted by phillymiket

Trying to imagine my monchar with a minute haste boost or damage boost, manyshot, and everything else going at once.

I imagine it would be quite overpowered.

I think some should have a longer duration: skill boost, AC boost, saves boost, movement boost.

Some should not: Damage boost, spell power boost, haste boost in particular.

Unless it was something unlocked in the Kensai tree with 18 levels of fighter or maybe even be part of the fighter capstone for pure 20s.

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that is a good idea.

By the time I have clicked Draconnic Fury, (which locks me in place for a second or two), then clicked the skill boost button, I will have missed the opportunity to do as much damage as the two boosts would have given me anyway, plus I am taking unanswered damage the whole time. For that reason, I very rarely use them.

For them to be meaningful they should have durations akin to the alchemical potions. Even those I usually don't bother with, but for tougher dungeons, they are worth it and i do use them from time to time.

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Originally Posted by Varinon

Well, at least in 3.0 and 3.5 they're synonymous. Forgive me for not knowing earlier versions, 3.0's the earliest I've played.

In 3.0 and 3.5, however, the concept of a 'turn' does not exist. Compare this: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:How_Combat_Works

with spells that would last '1 turn' such as Speak With Animals and you can see it clearly says '1 minute' not '1 turn'.

So, sorry if it was different in earlier editions, but 3rd edition (which DDO is based off) does not have turns.

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Simply because they used the minute to describe it in official product does not mean they didn't have the Turn - Note a Turn = 1 Minute!


A Round however "may have" started out as a minute but that was discarded when it got through to TSR that a minute was far far too long for what was allowed in 1 round!

But even before then a Turn was 10 Rounds!


Late in 2nd Ed. {I believe with Combat & Tactics} was when a Round being 6 seconds was finally put into official products - At that point a Turn being 1 minute became obvious and 3rd Ed. + obviously just used Minute as the name rather than Turn to help young people get into the game with terminology they already know!


It's like D&D coinage:
Being English I've always used my own Pounds and Pence but it works exactly the same with Dollars and Cents for Americans.

Copper Piece = 1 pence
Silver Piece = 10 pence
Electrum Piece = 50 pence
Gold Piece = £1
Platinum Piece = £5

Notice I used the PnP amounts NOT the DDO ones {Electrum was dropped for DDO and Plat is now 10 Gold or £10!}.


Translating into Terminology that a 10 year old can understand instantly helps get them into the game so I'm not surprised 3rd ed + went with minutes over turns {but they mean the same thing!}.

I believe somebody mentioned a 15 second base with 1 second added per level.

Make it a 16 second base and that would = 35 seconds at Lvl 20 and 45 at Lvl 30.

Sounds about right to me!

I would like Extend to work with Action Boosts though personally.

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Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

I would like Extend to work with Action Boosts though personally.

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so now my melee would need to splash for a class that will allow me to take extend. sorry, but nooooooooooooooope.

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Originally Posted by the_one_dwarfforged

so now my melee would need to splash for a class that will allow me to take extend. sorry, but nooooooooooooooope.

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Paladins and Rangers can take Extend!

And no your Monk {who let's face it is highly unlikely to be pure anyway}, Fighter or Barb would not NEED to splash to get Extend - Want and Need are two different things!

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Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

I would like Extend to work with Action Boosts though personally.

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0.o

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Originally Posted by EllisDee37

20 seconds is pretty darn long, especially if you think of a kensei in LD who probably has around 12 action boosts per rest and doesn't have to wait 10 seconds between uses. That's 4 full minutes of action boost, uninterrupted, per shrine.

Though I could get on board for some minimal scaling for epics:

20 seconds + 1 second per epic level (defined as starting at level 21)

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When you click, there's a delay b/c of the animation, if you want 2 boosts at once, another delay. It's kind of annoying.

It'd would be relatively easy to just halve the number of action boosts everyone has and then double their time. On the other hand, do we really need dev time devoted to this? What about content or bug fixes? We have, what, one engineer left for programming?

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Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

I would like Extend to work with Action Boosts though personally.

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Because action boosts are spells?

Because you want melee wizards/sorcs to be awesome?

only if my manyshots get the bump too

20 seconds is no where nearly long enough....no time to click and close ranks,you are stuck action boosting while getting attacked.With a touch of lag...;no one ever gets that,max sarcasim meter;You are lucky to get a few xtra swings off

the 20 seconds has been here a short time;ir was 30 seconds for my fighter before this year for long time..that was enough boost length I felt