Rogue Enhancements are currently available on Lamannia.
Please share your thoughts on the Rogue Enhancement Trees!
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Rogue Enhancements are currently available on Lamannia.
Please share your thoughts on the Rogue Enhancement Trees!
<3
I'm sure I'll have a rant later tonight, but let's just enjoy the moment. :D
<3
Oh man... I can't wait. I'm literally jittery with anticipation... and checking the Lam client every 5 minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SqueakofDoom
Excellent!
If Brick's patch works for me, I can log in after work today and check out all of the new rogue-y goodness/awfulness on my main toon and then come here to cheer/rage about it.
Hear hear!Quote:
Originally Posted by SableShadow
Now someone post the rogue enhancements please :)
not gonna be able to test, so if assassin tree only has damage and not haste boost, someone scream at devs pls, ty.
no it will have both, you will probably just have to pick only one. but hey this is the NEW AND IMPROVEDEDDED enhancements, they ahve to be better! right?Quote:
Originally Posted by destiny4405
Could some kind soul please post up the new enhancements for thous of us without Lamannia.
You don't want both anyway, you want rogue haste boost and human damage boost, so you can have both on. :V
yes, unless haste boost is all the way in the acrobat tree :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Truga
In the pre-alpha leak, Haste Boost was located in the Acrobat Tree, as a Tier 2 ability. This is consistent with other Haste Boosts, such as the one from Tempest. If this is still the same, I don't consider it to be a bad decision: Putting all the abilites which enhance damage in the assassin tree would make choices uninteresting.Quote:
Originally Posted by destiny4405
I think it is a bad implementation. even for Rangers.Quote:
Originally Posted by karl_k0ch
Haste Boost was a core class ability not a prestige.
And moved from a level 1 ability to a tier 2 ability so 5 AP to even unlock it...
OTher core abilities scattered throughout various prestige tree's.
Racial Tree requiring its own AP investment.
Multiclass Tree's require Significant AP investment.
This whole multiple tree thing reeks of disaster.
Current toons cant have what they have now based on my trials on Lama.
Assassin tree:
Core:
Knife in the Darkness: You gain proficiency with Kukris. You may use Dex modifier to-hit with Daggers and Kukris
Dagger in the Back: (2AP) You may use Dex for damage with daggers and kukris. If you have weapon finesse, this applies to melee weapons with which you can use your dex modifier to hit.
Assassin's trick: (2AP) Activate: Target intelligent opponent loses 25% fort and immunity to sneak attacks for 12 seconds - Will save DC 10+rogue level+Int modifier to avoid, Cooldown 15 sec
Nimbleness: (2AP) On sneak attack: Up to once every 2 seconds, you gain 1% dodge for 6 seconds. This effect can stack up to 10 times.
Lethality: (2AP) Sneak attack that is vorpal will kill most living targets.
Deadly Shadow (2AP): +2 INT, +4d6 to sneak attack
Tier1:
Poison Strikes (2AP, multi):
Heartseeker: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 fort save (stacks 5 times), On Crit: 1d6 Con damage, On vorpal: Heartseeker (-5% hit points, Fort save to negate DC 10 + 1/2 rogue level + INT modifier) cooldown 6s
Ice chill: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 reflex save (stacks 5 times), On Crit: 1d6 Dex damage, On vorpal: Paralysis (Fort save to negate DC 10 + 1/2 rogue level + INT modifier, 25% chance for additional save when creature is damaged)
Soulshatter: Melee Poison Attack: On damage: -1 Will save (stacks 5 times), on Crit: 1d6 Wis damage, on Vorpal: Shattermantle (-100 SR for 10 seconds; Will save to negate, DC 10 + 1/2 rogue level + INT modifier)
Toxin Affinity (1AP): +1/+2/+3 Fort save vs poison, +1/+2/+3 to the DC of your poison attacks - wording here is not very clear but that seems to be both.
Shiv (1AP): Melee Attack: +1/+2/+3[W] damage and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by 100/200/300. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains -2 fort save vs poison for 20 seconds (stacks 5 times) cooldown 12 seconds
Sneak Attack Training (2ap): +1d6 sneak attack damage, +1 to hit while sneak attack
Stealthy (1ap): +1/+2/+3 Hide and Move Silent
Tier2:
Poison Strikes (2AP, multi): - pick one from the T1 list you don't already have
Venomed Blades (2AP) - Poison Stance: On hit: 1d4/1d6/1d8 poison damage with weapon attacks
Bleed Them Out (1AP) - Melee Attack: Deal +1/+2/+3[W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. The bleed can stack up to 5 times. Cooldown 6 seconds
Sneak Attack Training (2ap, requires T1 SA Training): +1d6 sneak attack damage, +1 to hit while sneak attack
Damage Boost (2ap): +10%/+20%/+30% Action Boost bonus to weapon damage for 20 seconds
Tier3:
Poison Strikes (2AP, multi): - pick one from the T1 list you don't already have
Critical Accuracy (1ap): +1/+2/+3 to confirm Critical hits
Shadow Dagger (1ap): Throw dagger made of solidified shadows at your enemy. Deals 4/6/8d8 unholy damage and blinds, Fort save DC ?/14/18 + 1/2 rogue level + Int modifier to negate blindness.
Sneak Attack Training (2ap, requires T2 SA Training): +1d6 sneak attack damage, +1 to hit while sneak attack
Stat increase (2ap): +1 Dex or +1 Int
Tier 4:
Execute (2ap, requires Critical Damage 1): Melee Assassinate attack: +3[w] damage. On sneak attack: if target is below 20% health, deal 500 damage. Cooldown 30s
Critical Damage (1ap, requries Critical Accuracy): +1/+2/+3 critical hit damage
Killer (1ap, requires Critical Damage 1): When you kill a target, gain +5% morale bonus to Melee Doublestrike and Extra Shot Chance for 15 seconds. Can stack up to 2/3/4 times. Weaker enemies don't always give boost, repeating crossbows have lower extra shot chance.
Sneak Attack Training (2ap, requires T3 SA Training): +1d6 sneak attack damage, +1 to hit while sneak attack
Stat increase (2ap): +1 Dex or +1 Int
Tier 5:
Assassinate (1ap): as on live
Measure the Foe (1ap): Gain +1 to hit and to the DCs of your assassinate abilities every 6/4/2 seconds you remain stealthed. This effect stacks up to 5 times.
Knife Specialization (2ap): Gain +1 competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier with daggers and kukris. Daggers also gain a +1 competence bonus to Critical Threat Range.
I'll try to get to other trees later; and add some thoughts as well.
It's still tier 2 acrobat. Wand and scroll mastery is tier 3 mechanic.Quote:
Originally Posted by karl_k0ch
My guess is most rogues are going to be using all 3 trees or giving up one of those 2 enhancements. Or grabbing a multiclass to add them in from another class's tree.
Assassins still look like the popular choice tree.
Pick your iconic rogue weapon. Dagger, crossbow, or staff?
These trees are pretty close to what appeared on Lamma few months ago, with a few changes. Kill switch didn't appear with mechanic, for example.
*looks at assasin tree*
Maybe turbine doesn't hate rogues anymore?
*waits for giant other shoe to drop*
sounds like pnp :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Aashrym
just hope they are balanced :o
http://udba.org/ddo/ScreenShot00158.jpg
Best I could manage for now. Works very nicely, but scroll mastery is currently broken, I only heal for 157. :< Will test more next week, don't have time right now.
I would not be quite so annoyed with it being a tier 2, since I mostly splash 2 levels of Ro anyway when I do splash, my bigger issue would be that acrobat 's tier one abilities are almost all quarterstaff focused. That is the biggest issue I am having, I need to waste points in things I would not, and previously would never have, in order to get what I want.Quote:
Originally Posted by JOTMON
lol can you say pigeon-holed? this game is turning into 'magic-user needs a heal' faster than ash would defend turbine for this epic colossal failure they are pushing out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aashrym
Is it just me or did we lose 12 SA dmg?
Not really. We lost 12 damage but got 4d6, which is 14 damage, so we gained two.Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator
Gee, not the 3.5 pnp I have played for decades, or anybody I have ever played with at any of the conventions.. We have moved away form such limits an awfully long time ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by ddobard1
Not really. My rogue now uses a shortsword, a kukri and a dagger depending on situation (celestia, EMG, agony) and all use dex for to hit and damage. I'm also proficient with needle for ranged damage and have 55 assassinate DC with just 34 INT. What's not to like?Quote:
Originally Posted by kingfisher
Since there are no core class enhancements anymore, it had to go somewhere. My experience on Lama just now was that unlocking and acquiring the ability from the acrobat tree was not an issue. I had to take something I wasn't thrilled with for my last point of unlocking but I had so many APs it wasn't a big deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by JOTMON
Overall, it worked for me. I like the tree model and the power ramp up for rogues compared to what is currently live is very nice.
Quick impression of acrobat tree after testing 18/1/1 rogue/fvs/druid (did that to look at other trees).
Acrobat is a ton of fun. The clickies are very useful, not sure why other trees could not be like this, the damage is good and the cool downs are low enough. I especially liked the one that does 3[w] and 25% doublestrike for 10secs. The cool down is only 12s. I will be using that one as an opener quite a bit.
Vault is kind of silly, really just abundant step. I would be better with an animation like vaulting.
The granted abilities are all nice. This thing is going to be a beast in dreadnaught too with double trip (and it has + to trip in the tree).
I did not find any real bloat in this tree at all. Ended up spending 46 points in it without feeling like I was wasting any. I will have to see how this and henshin mystic go together. Not sure what would be my tier 3 between the two. I am thinking henshin mystic but no sure.
Overall impressed (with assassin tree also).
rogue mechanic now much more desirable!
Love time bomb (at least in theory)
and it seems that the hard cap of ranged attack speed of 32% is now lifted - just saw my RogWizArt with haste and haste boost do 57%
Sort of - I haven't been online yet, but it looks like only the Assassin Tree has extra SA damage, and it now gets +4d6 rather than +3d6. The extra 12 damage from SA Training that any Rogue could take is gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator
So, Assassin rogues lose an average of around 9 (rounded up) from their max bonus (from 3d6+12 to 4d6, or ~23 to 14). I'm not sure how viable taking the Assassin abilities is for rogues focusing in the other prestiges, but if it is, they potentially gain around 2 to their max possible SA bonus.
get rid of the crappy ass Tanglefoot from rogue mechanic
shift the Improved Detection down to lvl 3 tier, and Targeting sights down to lvl 6 tier
and Expert Trapper down to lvl 12 tier
then for lvl 18 tier, add 50% chance to shoot extra projectile with crossbows (reduced effect for repeaters)
also, disconnect wand DC, wand mastery, and UMD
Mechanic Tree
http://i45.tinypic.com/34rvjwi.jpg
Core abilities:
(1) Arbalester: Raise ranged sneak attack/PBS range by 5 meters, and give proficiency with great xbows
(3) Tanglefoot (2 AP): Alchemical Grenade area taack. Enemies on the acid puddle takes 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds and are slowed (DC for each part is 10 + 1/2 rogue levels + int. Half damage or no slow). 30 secs cooldown.
(6) Improved Detection (2 AP): You can detect and search traps from 50% further. Gives proficiency with light repeaters
(12) Targeting Sights (2 AP): Uses Int for ranged/throw damage and proficiency with heavy repeaters.
(18) Expert Trapper (2 AP): Reduces the cooldown of all alchemical traps by 20%, and 3/rest if you critical fail while disarming, the box don't blow up on your face.
(20) Master Alchemist (2 AP): Passive +2 Dex/Int. You gain a "special potion" that for 60 seconds give you +1d6 to all stats and +2d6 to attack and damage. Cooldown: 3 minutes.
Tier 1:
Crossbow Training (2 AP): +1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with non-repaters xbows.
Faster Disabling (1 AP): You search, disable and OL animations are 33/66/100% faster (yes, third tier is instant)
Thunderstone (1 AP): Alchemical grenade. 4d6/6d6/8d6 sonic damage to target and dazes in the nearby area if they fail at a Fort save (DC 12/14/16 + half rogue levels + int)
Mechanics (1 AP): +1/2/3 to disable, OL, Repair, and saves against traps.
Awareness (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Listen, Search and Spot
Tier 2:
Crossbow Training (2 AP): Requires Crossbow Training I. +1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with repeaters. +2 damage with non-repaters.
Improved Traps (1 AP): +1/2/3 to DCs of your alchemical attacks and magical traps. Elemental traps that you place now have a DC of 65%/80%/100% of your disable skill instad of 50%.
Wand Heightening (1 AP): +1/2/3 to wand DC
Skill Boost (1 AP): +2/4/6 to skills for 20 secs.
Tier 3:
Crossbow Training (2 AP): Requires Cossbow Training II+1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with non-repaters xbows.
Wracking Shot/Strike (1 AP): Ranged/Melee attack. On hit, deal 1d6/3d6/5d6 damage to construct hit, reduces 10% fortification (stacks 5 times), and make them lose sneak attack immunity.
Ooze Flask (1 AP): Requires Thunderstone at same tier. Alchemical grenade. Single target. 4d8/8d8/12d8 acid damage and reduces his AC by 2/4/8 for 30 secs (Fort DC 10 + half rogue + int to negate AC debuff). Cooldown: 12 secs.
Wand and Scroll Mastery (1 AP): Requires Wand Heightening at same level. +25%/50%/75% of scroll/wand effectiveness.
Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): +1 to choosen stat.
Tier 4:
Crossbow Training (2 AP): Requires Crossbow Training III. +1 to hit with xbows, +1 to damage with repeaters. +2 damage with non-repaters.
Disable Construct (1 AP): Requires Wracking Shot/Strike at same rank. Target is dazed for 10/20/30 seconds. Daze is removed on damage. Using it on a target already affected by it will extend the duration. Cooldown: 25 secs.
Use Magical Device (1 AP): Requires Wand and Scroll Mastery of same rank. +1/2/3 UMD.
Dexterity or Intelligence (2 AP): +1 to choosen stat.
Tier 5:
Leg Shot (2 AP): Ranged Attack. On damage, enemy movement is reduced 50% for 10 seconds. Cooldown: 10 seconds.
Time Bomb (2 AP): Requires Ooze Flask at same tier. Alchemical trap. Creates a trap at your feet. After 10 seconds it explodes and deal 10/25/50 fire and 10/25/50 sonic damage per rogue level to all nearby enemies, and knock them to the ground. Reflex DC 10 + half rogue + int to reduce damage in half, Balance same DC to avoid knockdown. Cooldown: 2 minutes.
I trust this means that at least a couple of new named Kukri's are coming in the expansion.
At least for my pure halfling, this is not a restriction - there are no other trees available. For other race/class combinations, there are more options, i.e. choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aashrym
Interestingly enough, while the three tree limit creates restrictions, it makes the decisions more archetypical, i.e. you have to decide between Versatility from Mechanic vs. more damage from, say, Kensai.
I'm probably repeating myself: Putting tasty enhancements (eg haste boost, W&S Mastery) into not-so-popular trees makes the said trees more of a consideration. This is a good thing because choice is good, and while from a power gamer POV, I'd like to have access to all the powerful rogue enhancements at once and the kensei tree, I think that creating this kind of dichotomy is healthy for a diversity of efficient character builds.
its nice that rogue could use dex instead of str to hit and damage IMHO
So first I tried to recreate my Halfling dex-based assassin 20 rogue on the new enhancements as closely as possible.
Aside from the missing sneak attack damage - normally assassin PrE grants +3d6 and the Sneak Attack Training grants +12, and is a prerequisite for the PrE (bug report filed) - I was able to fully replicate my enhancements, and actually improve on them some. It required spreading points out into all 3 trees, but there were enough points to go around. I got a 3rd Dex point from the Mechanic tree, and if I was willing to take 20% less hate diversion or 10% less on my haste boost I could even take a 4th Dex point.
Of course, I probably wouldn't build it that way now; I'd want more of the top end enhancements to dagger/kukri crits and would have to cut back somewhere. Next step is to plan out a new build. I'm already a little sad that Rebellion is a short sword and won't play nice with all the extra goodies you get from assassin tree, and once things are finalized I'll probably have to run the numbers to compare Rebellion and Agony.
The bad news is that splashing Rogue may become more troublesome. I haven't played around much with Rogue splashes but they're very popular. Haste boost and Wand Mastery both take a tree and so taking both in a shallow splash is likely prohibitive, and Wand Mastery takes a heavier splash. It feels partly like Wand Mastery is up higher because once you can take one level of it, you can take all three right away - on Live the different tiers of Wand Mastery are gated by level, for example, and you can't get 75% until lvl 11, but you can get the first 30% at lvl 2.
I do feel like they filled out Mechanic well with a lot of desirable features that may actually pull people in.
I don't see Cheat Death as a capstone anywhere but I'm not sure it was all that desirable anyways. I would certainly never have taken it in spite of how much I wanted the Dex, so I'm not bug reporting it. If someone misses it, though, bug it.
Yeah, just noticed it was 4d6 throughout tiers instead of 3d6, so 8.5 sa dmg loss for assassins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercureal
Also, the biggest thing is losing haste boost. (or was it put into another tree? Either way, huge ap or dps loss)
@Nibor: Is Venomed Blades allowed to stack with other stances, like Power Attack, etc?
OMFG, just checked Mechanic tree! Instant disabling/searching!
Acrobat Tree
http://i47.tinypic.com/358e06b.jpg
Core:
(1) Acrobat: Use dex to hit with staffs.
(3) Stick Fighting (2 AP): Use dex to damage with staffs.
(6) Tumbler (2 AP): You can tumble through enemies.
(12) Kip Up (2 AP): Immunity to knockdown and slippery surfaces.
(18) Cartwheel Charge (2 AP): After tumbling you gain a +2 morale bonus to Str and Dex for 6 seconds.
(20) Followthrough (2 AP): Passive +2 Str/Dex. After tumbling, for 6 seconds your staff attacks hit two targets per swing instead of one. On vorpal, your target is knocked down.
Tier 1:
Staff Training (2 AP): +1 hit/damage with staffs.
Acrobatic (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Balance, Jump and Tumble. +5%/10%/15% staff attack speed.
Charming (1 AP): +1/2/3 Bluff, Diplomacy, Haggle and Intimidate
Sly Flourish (1 AP): Melee Attack. +0.5/1/1.5 [W] damage with a +1/2/3 crit threat range, and reduces your threat by 100/200/300. On sneak: Intelligent target also gains -1 to balance, Reflex and Will for 20 seconds (stacks 5 times). Cooldown: 12 secs.
Faster Sneaking (1 AP): +20%/35%/50% sneaking speed.
Tier 2:
Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training I. +1 to hit and +2 damage with staffs.
Trip Focus (1 AP): +1/2/3 to Trip DC
Subtlety (1 AP): -20%/30%/40% threat generation (non-cumulative with other Subtlety enhancements)
Quick Strike (2 AP): Melee Quarterstaff Attack. +1/2/3[W] damage. You gain a 5%/15%/25% morale bonus to doublestrike for 10 seconds. Cooldown: 18/15/12 secs.
Haste Boost (2 AP): +10%/20%/30% attack speed for 20 seconds.
Tier 3:
Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training II. +1 hit/damage with staffs.
Improved Glancing Blows (1 AP): 2%/4%/6% more chances to proc secondary weapon effects on glancing blows.
Shadow Dodge (1 AP): Toggle: +1/2/3 Dodge and Dex, -10%/20%/30% Fortification.
Sweeping Strikes (2 AP): Requires Quick Strike at the same rank. Melee Quarterstaff Trip Attack. +1/2/3[W] damage to all nearby enemies and trips them (Balance DC 10 + half rogue + Dex). Cooldown: 30/25/20 secs.
Strength or Dexterity (2 AP): +1 to choosen stat.
Tier 4:
Staff Training (2 AP): Requires Staff Training III. +1 to hit and +2 damage with staffs.
Improved Defensive Roll (1 AP): Requires Defensive Roll. Defensive Roll now triggers at 30%/40%/50% or below health, and reduces damage to 40%/30%/20% when successful.
No Mercy (1 AP): You deal 10%/20%/30% more damage to helpless opponents.
Staff Lunge (2 AP): Requires Sweeping Strikes at same rank. Melee Quarterstaff attack: +2/3/4[W] damage as you dive through enemies in a line. Cooldown: 30/25/20 secs.
Tier 5:
Staff Specializtion (2 AP): +1 competence bonus to crit threat range and multiplier with staffs.
Vault (2 AP): Wings. Requires a staff equipped. Cooldown: 15 seconds
I have it on right next to Precision; haven't stepped into a quest yet, tho.Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator
No idea on how the stances stack. If it stacks with Precision/PA, then it's pretty good and I'll probably take it over damage boost. If it doesn't stack, it's pretty well trash.Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator
Haste boost is in Acrobat tree. You need to spend 5 pts in tier 1 first to unlock it, then 6 points to get it maxed. Depending on where you were stopping on haste boost before, this is a poor/decent/good deal. Subtle Backstabbing - the anti-hate enhancements - are also over in acrobat at the same tier. If you want both, the 5 points to get to both is not as expensive, but I'm not sure how much non-rogues used subtle backstabbing.
As a player with several multi-class characters, to say I am disappointed is an understatement.
It goes beyond disappointment, as it appears that Turbine went out of their way to ummm make multi-classing unworkable. And I am not just talking my two level splash builds, but my two builds with six levels of rouge, there is nothing for me to spend AP points on at the low levels.
Loving the look of the acrobat tree, will be interesting to see how the monk trees synergise with it
Can't say about PA (my rogue don't have it), but it worked at the same time with Precision.Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfORCastrator
there is no hard cap of 32% on ranged attack speed. my kensai AA on live routinely hits 50something.Quote:
Originally Posted by UurlockYgmeov
Now that the Dexterity modifier can be used for to-hit and damage modifiers, and coupled with the new set of Trip enhancements, can we expect to see a change in tactical feats to allow the Dexterity modifier to be used in place of Strength? I believe that change would work well for acrobats who use Trip and Stunning Blow as part of their normal combat rotation.
On Live, Assassin rogues get +3d6 sneak attack damage from the assassin PrE,+12 sneak attack damage from the assassin tree and +4d6 from the deadly shadow capstone. The new sneao attack training enhancements add up to +4d6 sneak attack damage and deadly shadow is the same. About 9 damage worth of nerfs. yay!
The other trees have it even worse, since they can't take deadly shadow and have to spend a lot of points on the assassin tree to get sneak attack training. I'm sure mechanics and thief acrobats will love doing 8d6+12 damage less than what they can do now on the live servers.
Yes, this would be nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaril
However, the first core ability (Kukri proficiency) solves a number of issues why kukris aren't a great choice on live for rogues. While Epic Midnight Greetings is a nice choice as a trash beating (and stabbing) weapon, it doesn't break DR, and is also not great if you can't assassinate (because most of the mobs are, eg, red-named). Since there is only one other weapon type with slashing on a rogue's weapon list, you have the following options if you want to use other weapons than EMG against bosses:
- Take IC: Slashing and use Rapiers without IC:Pierce
- Take IC:Slashing and Exotic Proficiency: Khopeshes (or both IC feats, if you really like Rapiers)
- Take IC: Slashing and have an Elven Cleric grant you Scimiar proficiency
- Take IC: Pierce, and use a non-optimal EMG against trash and Rapiers against bosses
- Take IC: Slashing and splash fighter for Kukri/Scimitar proficiency
With a free Kukri proficiency, you don't need to spend a feat (or do other tricks) to use the same kind of weapon for bosses. With Cannith crafting, you can craft a number of Kukris, depending on what you're going to fight (HB silver/cold iron of GEOB, HB adamantine of GCB, HB (silver) of GUB, etc.).
For me, I'm already looking forward using Kukris on my rogue, even if there are no new Kukris. However, a Kukri with some serious damage (and no DR breaking) or a heavily debuffing Kukri would be nice.
Yes less sneak damage, but more damage in other forms for the assassin seems more a wash damage wise. +to critical damage, killer, execute, and kukris/dagger are 18-20 X3. There are other benefits in assasin as well thus seems like a bump overall actually. Acrobat is all about the clickies so would really have to analyze those. I am a little concerned about the mechanic in some ways the bomb has a low save dc for example so guessing that mobs just save on epic elite easily probably not a very good a tree overall although nice flavor for the guys that like playing flavor characters and has a few nice things for other rogues to splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmnh
Oh sweet mercy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibor
Take into consideration the increased crit range/multiplier, poison stance, all the +[w] abilities, etc...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmnh
I'm really, REALLY liking the new enhancements for rogue.
Killer might be good enough to catch up to live characters against trash. If you consistently do enough damage that killer and critical damage add up to 10 damage per swing or more, your character actually got better. But to get there you need to be doing 240 average damage already - My character won't suffer, but most others will I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by maddmatt70
Mechanics and Acrobats really got hosed by losing the deadly shadow capstone and sa damage enhancements. 4d6+12 is a lot of damage.
Seconded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid
Also, please can we have an actual "vaulting" animation? If you're going to take away my sneak damage, you could at least continue the trend of staffs/TAs having the most beautiful weapon animations in-game.
Well the thing about acrobats is Henshin mystic as well so guessing most acrobats will be Henshin mystic/Acrobat if abilities stack so really impossible to say how that will play out until we see that, but yeah Mechanics are not very good other then for twisting abilities. They need to up the saves on time bomb and make it so it and mechanic works well with destinies. If time bomb was like energy burst with a brief delay could be interesting. I mean why not give time bomb an extremely high save or no save at all (should make this only available to higher level characters and make it so you can bump up the energy damage with gear and destinies).Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmnh
Wow, so far I'm really liking the majority of the enhancements. The kukri ability is definitely a nice to have early on.
I'm not sure the overall damage is nerfed, it looks like with all the bonuses to crit, venom, etc it has been boosted.
I think a separate vault animation is also a great idea.
bah . .. just give the Mechanics the ability to place an "undermine" bomb every minute or so and it'll become the greatest PRE int he game.Quote:
Originally Posted by maddmatt70
The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.
Anyone check to see if the extra crit range on daggers makes them 15-20 with imp crit, or just 16-20? I would absolutely LOVE to have my rogue using daggers again even if I have to remake all my weapons.
The +1 hit with crossbows needs to be for repeaters as well, repeaters are the whole reason I chose mechanic.
I'm going to miss cheat death! :(
This looks like mechanic int to damage for repeaters got pushed out from level 6 (Mechanic I on live) to level 12 (Mechanic II). If this is true, it is a huge disappointment (and a deal breaker for some builds). Not happy :(Quote:
Originally Posted by nibel
The bonus to hit is for any xbow. Only the damage portion is lower on repeaters (+6 on non-repaters, +2 on repeaters)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandyb
They did the same with Artificer X-bow training. You get +1 to hit with ALL X-bows (including repeaters), but only +1 damage for non-repeaters in all ranks. For repeaters, you get the +1 damage in the 2nd and 4th ranks, making non-repeaters +4/+4 (to hit/damage) and repeaters +4/+2 when fully taken. My guess is they thought that since repeaters shoot 3x per round, giving the +1 damage at every rank would make them OP. For low levels, I can see this, but for high levels? *shakes head*Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandyb
I think if they are going to skip every other rank, they should give repeaters the +1 damage in ranks 1 and 3, instead of 2 and 4.
But what do I know?
;)
I don't have access to the Lamannia client at the moment so I can check the exact contents of the mechanic tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by HastyPudding
However, I do know that there is at least one tier 3 ability from the Mechanic tree worth taking, i.e. Wand & Scroll Mastery. I don't think that it's a bad thing that Mechanic has useful abilities at tier 1.
With the old enhancement system, you had one resource for your enhancements: APs.
With the new enhancement system, there are two kinds of resources: APs and trees (up to 3 class ones). On most characters, even for pure classes, there will be 4 or more class trees available.
Thus, even if an interesting ability is at tier 1 of an otherwise uninteresting tree, spending these points is still a grave investion, as you will lock yourself out from one of the other trees available.
Bah, this kills my beloved 6Rog/6Art/8Past Life repeater build before I was able to play it myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardonica
That depends on what we splash it with and what we are splashing it for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nibor
I can take haste boost on tempest and it's getting added back to a fighter tree so I wouldn't need that on rogue. Anyone who wants cheap wand and scroll get get that from a cleric splash. A rog 2 splash on a bard or cleric is still a fairly easy path to haste boost and both already have wand and scroll, or whatever.
If I'm just looking for skills and evasion I don't need to take any tree and those benefits with still be there, such as on a ranger or wizard.
I think it's more complicated and there are builds that will have to change or might not work but prohibitive is too strong a word because there new splashes that look appealing.
As it is on live, there is no difference between the disabling skills of an Assassin and a mechanic. They both have the same disabling skills (unless you count junk like the Cabal trap).Quote:
Originally Posted by HastyPudding
Even if you put the faster search into a higher tier, Assassins/acrobats will take it anyway because Wand and Scroll Mastery is at tier3.
It's also not quite like making Assassinate or Knockdown immunity easily-accessible: faster searching is a completely new ability. And do you really want your PrE's core ability being "better trapmonkey?"
So if you don't use Crossbow but are a mechanic you're shafted...
Come on seriously : The Mechanic Tree needs to be heavilly reworked.
All the crossbow only stuff needs to be 'Ranged Weapon' ( pick one ).
and then it needs to get rid of some stuff... I miss my Smiting, I miss... a lot of things... so many things that I ended up spending on the Assassin Tree up to Tier 5 instead when I worked on my Mechanic...
I won't even go into the Thief-Acrobat Tree as I only have two weapon fighting rogues...
By the way, where is hidden the Toughness Enhancement ? I couldn't find any in any of the rogue trees.
Racial Toughness was scrapped. Instead, they added +20 HP to Heroic Durability (Previously: +20. Now: +25, plus +5 at 5th, 10th and 15th level)Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavilandile
So, all in all, it will stay the same and yuo saved 3 AP.
Sticking a Dex modifier for tactical attacks like Trip and Stunning Blow should probably appear into one of two spots in the Acrobat tree. It could appear in the Core ability Stick Fighting, which is also where Acrobats can use Dex for damage. The other place that it could go is Trip Focus. Trip focus has 3 ranks, so why not put the Trip with Dex in the second rank and Stun with Dex in the third rank? It won't be an automatic give me to Acrobats, they would have to invest to get this ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepid
===
For the most part, I'm enjoying the Acrobat tree. However, there are three things that I really don't like about it.
First, I made a suggest before when Vault was first seen a few months ago. Vault for a Tier 5 ability that costs 3 AP (since you need a rank of No Mercy) should be something more than just Abundant Step. It should be closer to the Draconic Incarnation's Flyby Attack. Vault should probably do a small amount of damage along with a chance of knocking down mobs. If nothing else, at least a chance to knockdown mobs.
Second, the Acrobat Capstone is Followthrough. I'll quote it here: "Followthrough (2 AP): Passive +2 Str/Dex. After tumbling, for 6 seconds your staff attacks hit two targets per swing instead of one. On vorpal, your target is knocked down." Ok, is the Vorpal Knockdown for all basic attacks or only 6 seconds after a Tumble? If it's all basic attacks, it's a great capstone. If it's just 6 seconds after tumbling, then it's a great disappointment and a bad capstone.
Third, Mechanic and Acrobat capstones should contain a +1 Sneak Attack die. It's just a small increase in damage for these prestige classes that dumped heavily into their chosen prestige. As someone else pointed out, both prestige classes no longer have access to the old Rogue capstone that everyone grabbed before. This isn't as powerful as the previous capstone, plus it's nowhere as powerful as the Assassins capstone.
There seems to be a need for a general "Class" tree in addition to "Racial" and "PrE" trees ... I assume there's a similar need for classes other than Rogue.Quote:
Originally Posted by oradafu
I don't mean "put all the good stuff" in one tree, but from what I can tell Mechanics and Acrobats get further behind in game of DPS bingo with this change compared to Live. A general "Class" tree for SA die enhancements would solve that problem.
This isn't, and shouldn't be, the Mechanic's flagship ability--it is a quality of life enhancement. Truthfully, I think it needs to be applied to the whole game for free--spending a long time disabling traps and searching (and opening doors, pulling a lever, etc...) is just annoying. I don't think they need to be instantaneous, but much faster would be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by HastyPudding
With DEX providing damage in the acrobat tree, does this mean when you deal damage with a quarterstaff that you are adding 1½ times your Dexterity bonus? Two handed weapons apply this bonus from Strength usually.
Just because you can do something faster doesn't make you an expert. Besides, what ability would you like to move down to replace Faster Disable? Skill Boost? Wand Heighten so that Wand Mastery and UMD get moved down a tier?Quote:
Originally Posted by HastyPudding
Let's be serious for a moment. Faster Disable is a convenience ability. The faster players can disable traps, then the faster a quest can be completed.
I'm not sure it's working properly right now, but Sly Flourish should be something all non-ranged Rogues should invest in. Just so you know what I'm talking about: "Melee Attack. +0.5/1/1.5 [W] damage with a +1/2/3 crit threat range, and reduces your threat by 100/200/300. On sneak: Intelligent target also gains -1 to balance, Reflex and Will for 20 seconds (stacks 5 times). Cooldown: 12 secs."Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavilandile
Also as others pointed out, there's Haste Boost and Subtlety in the second tier of Acrobat. All three should be something that TWF rogues seeking to fit into their build.
Hyperbole. There are fantastic abilities for Acrobat at low level:Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldyGopher
Tier 1: Acrobatic provides 15% alacrity with quarterstaves.
Tier 1: Staff Training provides +1 hit, dmg with quarterstaves.
Tier 2: Quick Strike provides 3[W] and 25% doublestrike for 10 seconds. (15 sec cool down.)
That's only 11 AP total spent, available before level 4. There's plenty of goodness to buy after that. Even if you don't plan on being a quarterstaff user in later levels, it's fantastic at low levels.
This is mostly a problem for multiclass rogues. Pure rogues can easily dip on the assassin tree for 2d6 sneak. Add to that your extra damage for xbows that you didnt had before, and you are 2~4 damage under your old +12 sneak.Quote:
Originally Posted by SableShadow
But as Aashrym said, not all splashes are killed because most splashes you do today are not for enhancements, but for class features.
The lost capstone 4d6 sneak is much more problematic than the sneak damage lines. I loved the suggestion to add 1d6 to the other rogue capstones.
I know Racial Toughness was scrapped... I'm the one that make Vargouille give us the explanation.Quote:
Originally Posted by nibel
I was talking about Class Enhancements... Namely Rogue as we are in the Rogue thread.
There are a few DEX-to-DMG staves and they, unfortunately, don't give the 1.5x bonus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Carpone
As far as I know, rogues never had class toughness enhancements. Why would you expect it to be there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavilandile
With Sireth and "take rogue level, get 15% speed bonus to staves", I'm predicting a lot of Rogue-splashed barbs with sticks.
Rogues have never had a class bonus to HP.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavilandile
ok, so here are my first impressions on the Assassin tree.
Core abilities
Knife in the Darkness
You gain proficiency with kukris. You can also use your Dex mod to hit with Daggers and Kukris.
This ability right now gives every rogue Kukri proficiency right out of the gate. I don't know if I like that. For multiclassers I understand it's a choice (you are limited to 3 trees) but this is the equivalent of a feat, for free, for all rogues, at level 1, with no investment needed.
Dagger in the Back
Dex mod instead of STR for damage with Kukris and Daggers. Also, dex mod instead of STR for damage for any light weapon if you have the Weapon Finess Feat.
I like what you did here. I was concerned that we would only have dagger/kukri wielding assassins running around. Instead of limiting the Dex to damage to just Kukris and Daggers, you expanded it with a cost allowing for more choices and diversity. Thank you for that.
Assassins Trick
Awesome, awesome, awesome. This ability will be a life saver in certain situations. A Rogue's death are undead and constructs. This ability helps alleviate that. However, it has some problems. It uses the bluff animation, which is fine, but the debuff only starts AFTER the animation is finished. This is a good 3-4 seconds unlike bluff which applies the debuff immediately and most of the animation you can skip. Waiting for an animation is cumbersome and annoying, please make it the same way bluff is.
Nimbleness
I can understand why you put Assassinate as a Tier 5 ability and this as the level 12 core ability instead. Not everyone who splashes into the assassin tree is going to want to assassinate. But this ability seems... out of place. It feels more like an acrobat ability. I'm not sure what you would put here instead but this ability seems lost and confused. Although it is a nice boost to defense in the middle of a fight.
Tree Abilities
Poison Strikes (Cooldown 6 seconds, duration 20 seconds, stacks up to 5 times)
Heartseeker Poison: On Damage: -1 fortitude save; on Crit: 1d6 Con damage; on Vorpal: -5% HP (lasts for 10 seconds)
Ice Chill Poison: On Damage: - 1 Reflex save; on Crit: 1d6 Dex damage; on Vorpal: Paralysis (Fort DC 10 + 1/2 Rogue level + Int mod negates, 25% chance for an additional save when the affected creature is damaged)
Soulshatter Poison: On Damage -1 Will save; On Crit: 1d6 Wisdom damage; on Vorpal: Shattermantle (-100 spell resistance for 10 seconds (Will DC 10 + 1/2 Rogue level + Int mod negates)
A nice change. Making them dedicated strikes gives them power and adds to their appeal and versatility. However, they are lacking.
Heartseeker Poison – the 5% HP reduction is only a debuff and the mob gets their HP back after 10 seconds. I would suggest just making this pure damage. 5% is really not all that much.
Ice Chill Poison: 1d6 dex on crit kills this one. Dex damage is only really effective against oozes. I would suggest changing it to -10% attack and movement speed or something similar. It gives added flavor and versatility.
Soulshatter Poison: 1d6 wis on crit is hard to say whether it's useful or not since the High Priestess dagger is the only weapon with this effect. I will have to reserve judgement as far as its effectiveness until I test it further. I will say that I would prefer something like On crit -2 spell resistance or something similar.
Because of these reasons, I only see people ever taking Heartseeker at the moment. The on damage save debuffs are good (especially because they cans tack, -1 to a will save doesn't seem like much but making them stack adds value) and Vorpal abilities are good the way they are (really just cherries on top, to unrealiable to depend on them) but the crit abilities need work.
I would also make the poisons share a cooldown. Spamming poison attacks because you can and getting lucky on a vorpal seems like lazy play to me, not tactical. Also, poison stacks are are proccing on off-hand attacks, is this WAI?
Shiv
-2 save on poison is ok... if the poison attacks were to proc more reliably. Right now, they're only applied on a Vorpal. Sky Flouish in the acrobat tree adds more. To make this worth it, change poisons to be more useful or change the -2 Fort against poisons to something else, maybe add a crit effect (+1 crit multiplier?).
Bleed them out
Just as useful as the Tempest ability. I'm not sure why this now generic ability has found a way to ugly 2 trees but they really need to go. Not only does the bleed effect adds no meaningful damage, it doesn't even tell you how little damage it does in the description/tooltip.
Venomed Blades
Good flavor, good cost/damage ratio. I also like that I can be in both precision and poison stance at the same time. I think this ability is 100% spot on.
Shadow Dagger
At first this ability looked like fodder to me, but when I stopped to think about it, it can actually be very helpful. I see this more as a low-mid level set-up ability that will help a Rogue get sneak attacks, especially after some good tactics (like a Bluff pull) and even help get an assassinate. The reduced cooldown and increased DC of later ranks make it a good ability to take for leveling.
Execute
I'm still torn on this. Not only is this a copy/paste of Hunter's Mercy from deepwood stalker, it has 2x the cooldown and you don't have the option of using it at range. HOWEVER, with smart play and good tactics and decisions, this ability can increase DPS by quite a bit. I just can't shake the feeling that it should be different somehow... I'll update after further testing.
Measure the Foe
Thank you thank you thank you thank you THANK YOU for this ability. Oh it is so perfect. The flavor of thinking of an assassin just waiting in the shadows, studying his opponent, crafting his moment of attack to improve his chances of an instant kill make me want to hug someone. Not only that, it gives a much needed boost to the DC of assassins since EpicGH came out. I sincerely hope that assassins don't take this ability too far and do nothing but stay in sneak the whole time. Rogues, if you do this, I will find you, no matter how sneaky you are. You are instakillers AND DPS. Don't neglect the DPS between the instakills.
Knife Specialization
I had problems swallowing this ability at first. The ability fits well, but... remember when I said Dagger in the Back was great because it added diversity? Well my first impressions of this ability was that it took that diversity right back out. With this ability, any knife or a kukri becomes 1d4 18-20 x3. This out DPS's any of the other options made available to you with Dagger in the Back (eg Shortwords or Rapiers). However, while wielding 2 Agonys on Lamannia against kobolds may make this seem OP, in reality, there is not always going to be a dagger that best fits your situation and you're lucky to have 2 Agony's in the first place. In that respect, if you do have 2 Agonys you deserve the boost. I still think this tilts the Dagger/Kukri wielding assassin into the “almost always better and you are gimp if you're not” category though. I can't think of a solution to remedy though...
Other thoughts
The trees are designed very well. The “essential” abilities (Haste Boost, Faster Sneaking) are all easily reachable. To reach some other abilities, I have to make decisions on what I have to sacrifice (eg I'd have to sacrifice my assassinate DC a bit in order to take No Mercy or Improved Defensive Roll). So good job on the AP costs. I've always said in games like this, when the decision is hard, the design is good. Good job on encouraging some hard decisions devs :D.
Will post later with my thoughts on the rest later after I LR my rogue to better fit the other prestiges.
For Assassins, the tier of Wand and Scroll Mastery is too high, and there are no must-abilities in Tier 1&2 of Mechanic tree.
Unlike the Acrobat tree, the Fast Sneaking is a must for assassins and Sly Flourish/Charming are also good abilities, then they will have access to Attack Speed Boost and Subtlety.
I forgot my other suggestion on increasing the Sneak Attack damage for Acrobats and Mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by nibel
The Devs should add a Sneak Attack die to the 4th tier of Staff Training and Crossbow Training. This would also help these Prestige classes with the loss of the Sneak Attack capstone. With the sneak attack damage added on there, it's a deep investment (8 AP) on their preferred weapon. Acrobats and Mechanics won't be able to get the extra damage when using some other weapon, so it's not an across the board sneak attack increase.
Full commentary in this thread.
What I'm perceiving acrobats lost:
- The promise of actual 20% staff alacrity
- 4d6 SA capstone
- Dexterity mod to sneak attack damage
- Enhancement to run/walk speed--where did that go?
- Showtime clicky. Mostly useless only the dex portion stacked and it consumed a haste boost, which is 99% more useful
- A whopping 4% dodge, unless you count a -30% fortification debuff and +3% dodge a net gain. It's not.
- THE OBVIOUS SYNERGY BETWEEN STRENGTH-ACROBATS AND TACTICAL DCs, OVERWHELMING CRITICAL QUALIFICATION, EASY-TO-ACQUIRE STRENGTH BOOSTS, LEGENDARY DREADNOUGHT, AND POWER ATTACK THF 1.5(DAMAGE).
That's huge. That's terrible. That's really crappy. Shame on you, devs. The only way to rectify this is to craft an enhancement that allows dex to be used if it's higher than strength for to-hit and damage, the use of dex for 1.5 damage with power attack, and the use of dex for all tactical abilities--particularly stunning blow and trip. The cost of the dex to-hit/damage that people shouldn't be forced to purchase anyway should be cut in half or autogranted.
They gained:
- Vault, which is neat
- No Mercy (except almost no ability to induce helplessness themselves)
- Snazzier defensive roll (though I suspect most won't train this)
- Ephemeral post-tumble buffs (which are functionally useless since you're reducing your DPS to pause forever and tumble, reposition relative to enemy, and take advantage of the nanosecond of buff that you get from tumbling)
Why you don't want quick disable, +3 to skills, or skill boost?Quote:
Originally Posted by arcattaii
I don't think a general class tree is needed. You just dip into the other trees as needed. My assassin focused rogue was easily able to dip into mechanic and acrobat to pick up those "general" items (haste boost, disable boosts...). It may be more useful to indentify those items that should be generally used and make sure they are not too high up the tree so they can be accessed.Quote:
Originally Posted by SableShadow
Does it force you to use DEX or is it like the special named weapons where it uses the higher bonus?Quote:
Originally Posted by SealedInSong
Yes, quick disable is nice ability, but it's not necessary ability for an assassin, even not for a rogue.Quote:
Originally Posted by nibel
Rogue is always an AP-tight-class, so I won't spend AP on them if I have better choices.
I'd also like to know, but from the wording I am not encouraged.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qezuzu
If it's as I suggested and uses the higher of str or dex it's still relevant though, as I have to purchase junky core enhancements that don't benefit me at all.
100% agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by SealedInSong
4d6 SA is Ok, since you get +1 range/multiplier for QStaff instead, but Acrobats still lose a lot of damage compared to live.
The attack speed change is another lame example of Turbine just changing the ability description for their obvious bug lol.
Cartwheel Charge is very very poor, you may just drink a Rage pot for 1:30min morale bonus 2STR/CON buff, so this ability will just give you 2DEX for 6 seconds actually.
Followthrough is also not good except the passive +2STR/DEX part.
Then maybe you (or someone) should go test that.Quote:
Originally Posted by SealedInSong
I didn't even see the morale bonus type.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcattaii
Jesus. H. Christ. That ability is such a trap. You gain like 1 damage on your next hit (two if you're lucky) at the expense of not hitting for the entire duration of your crappy tumble, which is likely putting you farther away from your enemy.
Updating OP.
Thank you for pointing this atrocity out.
'Sweeping Strikes': i ALWAYS wanted this, its like they read my forum post where i suggested long ago :3
'Quick Strike': i loved the short the 25% double strike. BUT i was really expecting it to be more permanent than just temporary. But of course, while only weilding staves.
'Staff Lunge': loved the new animation, good work. BUT i would suggest this special ability to count as tumble action triggering "Cartwheel charge" and "Followthrough" same as adding a chance for all (yes, ALL) tactical feats including the new acrobat ones to trigger the same effects of above (like a 50% for cleave, 80% for great cleave, 100% for 'Staff Lunge', and u can fill in the rest).
*PS: 'Vault'? They MUST have read mi post :3 i love it...
'Acrobatic': dont get me wrong, i love its effects and i WILL use it... but putting them available for someone with just 1 rogue level to access the 15% staff alacrity is not the way to go. 5% in tier 1 is good, tho probly should go in tier 2, the 10% in tier 3 and 15% in tier 4... Oh and a 20% in tier 5!!! :) . And put a minimum rogue level prerrequisite to AP spend in each tier. someone with just 1 rogue level SHOULD NOT be able to access any rogue capstone.
Also, i would like to suggest to forget the "half rogue level" for determinating the tactical feats's DC, just give it the full class level for it to be really usable in epics, and even low, mid, high level, its only way to make not only usable but effective when playing elite quests at level, for example.
My acrobatic 2 cents <3
I really don't what the devs have done here for the most part, we got the faster search/disable people have wanted for a long time but for some strange reason we also got Measure the Foe. So I get to sit in sneak mode for 10 secs if I want to maximize my chance of assassinating an EE monster?
Execute, Poison Strikesx3, Bleed Them Out, Shiv, Assassin's trick, Sly Flourish are all one off attacks from what I can tell, add in Sweeping Strikes and Staff Lunge for staff users. Way too many clickies on a squishy melee class that's more reliant on positioning than others.
The 3 tree limit really hurts here, like others in this thread I want scroll mastery/haste boost/SA damage on any mostly rogue build but now it'll block me from any other class tree. The push to make pure rogues a strong choice over the last few years I think has gone a little too far now, lots of abilities that scale only with rog level and usually int but sometimes dex, strong capstones and now this three tree limit. Going to have to wait for the other classes to come next week to really get a feel for things but deep multiclassing of rogues doesn't look all that enticing anymore.
The weapon pigeonholing isn't cool either, tier 3 core in assassin or acrobat trees before I get something that doesn't buff normally terrible weapons. And the trees themselves are littered with buffs to them, I wouldn't mind if it was a big buff to say daggers and a smaller one to other weapons which wouldn't be too hard to do espescially if you want to add back in some sneak attack to-hit/dmg to all prestiges.
Too many abilities using HALF ROGUE LEVEL for their DC, let's make a calculation:
Let's estimate 58-60 is a reliable number, then DC = 10(base) + 10(half rogue level) + 38(INT modifier), that means you need 86INT to reliably land your rogue abilities to EE mobs.
The Toxin/Venom line from Assassin is a joke, because bosses will probably immune to these effects. And mobs will usually die in seconds, why shall we use the venom?
The Alchemical Grenade is a joke too.. IMO, the reason is still the ridiculous low DC.. they should all use your Disable Skill for DC
Someone refresh me on the core abilities. If I purchase all the core abilities in Assassin, can I get knockdown immunity from Acrobat?
and Lama routinely crashes for me. But yes, I would love to if I could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qezuzu
Clearly I'm living vicariously by doubling my post count in the forums, shrieking at devs for their incompetence with the divine trees.
EH should be our benchmark for whether DCs are viable at all, and it's still not viable for those.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcattaii
I'm okay with EEs being extremely tough but not impossible for DCs to land.
They should alternatively consider just taking the DC away for some of the abilities that are weaker, or even nerfing some of the abilities but taking away the save.
At least that way you know that's it's not going to be 100% useless for 90% of all rogues.
If you mean "instantly, without much investment on the acrobat tier", no.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qezuzu
If you mean "I can have other core abilities besides the one I have a capstone", then yes.
The knckdown immunity ability requires 20 points spent on the acrobat tree. So, you just will be left with 16 AP for your third tree and racials if you also want Deadly Shadows from assassin tree.
I don't think it says you have to stand still. So if you're just moving down a hallway or something, you'll be good to go for your Assassinate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayseifn
If you weren't already using Kukri (Epic Midnight's Greetings) and dagger (Agony), you were doing it wrong. Improved deception is a must.Quote:
The weapon pigeonholing isn't cool either, tier 3 core in assassin or acrobat trees before I get something that doesn't buff normally terrible weapons. And the trees themselves are littered with buffs to them, I wouldn't mind if it was a big buff to say daggers and a smaller one to other weapons which wouldn't be too hard to do espescially if you want to add back in some sneak attack to-hit/dmg to all prestiges.
Having mechanics do this faster makes them unique and separates them from the melee rogues. And, yes, that kind of IS the point of being a mechanic; an expert with trapping, high saves vs traps, and enhanced trapmaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by sephiroth1084
Spoken like an assassin on live that says 'I can get traps without being a mechanic'. Seriously? With this being on tier 1, ANY class that splashes a level or two of rogue can instantly do traps. That's bogus in and of itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by oradafu
I would put skill boost on a lower tier, as every rogue tends to use that. Mechanics need something that's unique to them and not constantly being shat on by other rogues and artificers like they are on live. Putting this ability on tier 1 will do nothing but make people say 'Hey, I think mechanic looks like fun--oh wait, I can just put an expendable 3 points in the tree and do instant trapping and go assassin and still zerg in quests.'
Once again, you too speak like the typical assassin on live. "Screw mechanic, give me my wand/scroll/umd boost and fast trapping so I can spend my points in the assassin tree."Quote:
Originally Posted by Qezuzu
And therein lies the problem with live right now; there really IS no benefit to going mechanic, because assassins -- and to a slightly lesser degree, acrobats -- can do traps just as well. Add in the fact that artificer completely made mechanics obsolete and trap-making is next to useless past the harbor levels and it's even worse.
None of you made a mechanic on live, did you? I'm wiling to bet all three of you are either an assassin or acrobat junkie. I am sure you never heard 'Why are you a mechanic? Just go artificer.' or "Why mechanic? Assassins are sooo much better."
There's an almost social stigma surrounding mechanics (even more so when artificers arrived). Putting a great ability like this on tier 1 is pretty damaging to anyone wanting to be a mechanic (like myself) as there is just nothing special about them aside from crossbows and having an almost guaranteed no-fail trap skill. Their saves-vs-traps ability (another strong point for mechanics) is also tier 1. Basically everything that makes a mechanic a mechanic is very easy to get.
If it sounds like I'm lobbying/advocating for mechanics, it's because I am. This enhancement pass, which I was hoping would make mechanics viable, seems to be doing the exact opposite. All they did was make them easy to exploit for faster trapping and a few boosts and gave them some next-to-useless grenade abilities that have useless DC's. I am not impressed.
The Alpha version of Thief Acrobat would totally break my rogue build. Heh, any of the trees would break my rogue build, completely. She has been my favorite character for a long time. If this pigeon holing goes live...chances are I may finally quit. I've rolled with a lot of the changes that have come to the game but the loss of freedom to build how I want isn't one I'm willing to live with.
So is Bill Roper the new exec producer? Coz that's what it feels like.
How would it break your build, and how does it pigeon-hole?Quote:
Originally Posted by FunnyCide
She's a STR based TWF Thief Acrobat that duals scimitars.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qezuzu
Except that you are doing it in different ways. I have rogues of each prestige, and I think I'm if anything most biased towards my acrobat. That aside, the arguments seem to be:Quote:
Originally Posted by HastyPudding
1) Make trapsmithing the core of mechanics. Mechanics need that to distinguish them.
2) Trapsmithing should be innately easy for mechanics, but not their highlight. Their highlights should be: ______.
Personally (and from some other responses here), I'd prefer for that blank to be filled with lots of ranged and trap damage.
I think you are arguing for the former point, but the points are not mutually exclusive. Everyone wants mechanics to be appealing and flavorful and powerful, the former camp (you) just wants trapsmithing to be a highlight whereas the latter group wants the ranged, grenade effects, and trap setting abilities of the mechanics to be their most powerful ability with trapsmithing as a bonus.
That is because, as you said, we can all do traps just fine regardless of being a mechanic.
I do not think that the faster disabling/whatever trapsmithing abilities should be tiered higher. If anything, I think it should remain just where it is and all the offensive capabilities should be somewhere on the order of doubled in their power. Yes, doubled. :] I do love my mechanic.
C'mon Q...let's promote creativity here. "You were doing it wrong" is such a sad statement to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qezuzu
First of all, iDeception comes from plenty of offhand sources like Backstabber's Gloves, Ring of Lies, Ring of Deception, Golden Guile, and Seal of House Avithoul. Those are all great items to have on a rogue, too--you can fit them into gear sets without wasting anything.
Just because eMG and Agony work great for you doesn't mean that's what everyone should aspire to--if anything, you should encourage other and be happy for them doing something different and equally effective.
Off the top of my head, dual (even unupgraded) Balizardes and Celestias do quite a bit more damage than eMG/Agony considering Balizarde's crit profile and Celestia's DR-breaking + radiance effects. I've seen a player with dual Vacuum shortswords completely mow down mobs over my eMG-wielding character. Stars of Day can work pretty nicely as well.
I know someone that uses a Cormyrian rapier with life stealing in main hand and a simple Petrifying Hooked Blade for the limbchopper+petrifying to really great effect.
Let's say the devs pulled something out of the crazy hat like they did for the Protection Tree and said, "Assassins now get bonuses when they use axes only" with no buff to kukris/dagger/shuriken.
Wouldn't you be a bit peeved and confused if someone said, "If you're not using dual axes of adaxus, you're doing it wrong."
Anyway, I only pull out eMG for EE when I know my DC absolutely must be shored up--any other content and it's utterly redundant. As for Agony, I use that on a melee wizard...