Animal Form Abilities should not be blocked by rage

Hey so I thought it would be a great idea both mechanically and flavorfully to add some Barbarian into my Dwarven Druid/Fighter (and later take FotW ED) . I just liked the the idea of a raging Bear Barbarian...a Bearbarian if you will...or is it Barbearian?

Anyways after throwing it into Lvl 7 vet status to test a few things (I plan on playing from Lvl 1 to learn the class) I learned that rage blocks the use of the animal form abilities...is this a bug or WAI, If it's WAI I can understand not being able to use actual spells like vigor or splinterbolt but why can't I use Rend, Relentless Onslaught, Pack Presence, Roar, Shred...basically any of the abilities that require you be in Bear form (or Wolf for that matter)

These should are be changed to abilities that get granted based on druid level (each at the same level as the"spell" would be available) and just be active abilities a-la cleave, stunning blow, etc. with it being categorized under the relevant form like this:

-Wild Shape
+Bear/Direbear

click bear

-Bear(Lvl 2 or 5)/Dire Bear (Lvl 8 or 11)
Maul (Granted at Druid Lvl 1)
Roar (Granted at Druid Lvl 3)
Pack Presence (Granted at Druid Lvl 3)
Shred (Granted at Druid Lvl 5)
Rising Fury (Granted at Druid Lvl 7)
Animal Growth (Granted at Druid Lvl 9)
Pack Aptitude (Granted at Druid Lvl 9)
Tenacious Pack (Granted at Druid Lvl 11)
Relentless Onslaught (Granted at Druid Lvl 13)
Unstoppable (Granted at Druid Lvl 15)
??? (Granted at Druid Lvl 17)

Same with wolf but you get the idea (fire/water elly don't count as they cast actual spells)

Alternatively if they insist on keeping them as "spells" than just class them as a new spells school either "Innate Attack" or like "Wolf School" and " Bear School" and change their coding or the coding of any rage affect to allow these "spells". I prefer the former though as this is likely to cause some bugs and it doesn't make sense for these abilities to be "spells"

Side note: Whos genius idea was it to class these as spells in the first place their clearly NOT spells. Theres no reason that my Bear shouldn't be able to tear someones face off because he's in an Anti-Magic cone.

totaly agree, they shouldnt be spells.

Infact failed legend ive been thinking about this my self - and as per previoius threads it seems we think on similar lines ;)

heres my 'version'.

Each wild shape(and in future polymorph forms) to gain a set of abilities based on the characters casterlvl or BAB or character lvl.

so for example bear form would gain:
maul, shred, rising fury, relentless onslaught, unstopable.


now for how my vision differes from yours. - HOTBARS!.

each character would gain a X feats, probably 10. these feats would be called:
shapeshift ability 1 thru shapeshift abiltiy 10.

these feats can be dragged to a players hot bar and by default would do nothing at all, however when the player assumes an alternate shapeshifted form they would auto fill in (the same way monk finishing move does).

This is a better implementation because some one who speciaises in taking on multiple forms could hotkey these abilites and slot them on hot bars far easier.

so when in bear form hotkey 1 may do a shread manouver, but in wolf form it may do baiting bite and in fire ele form it may do a fireball.

If treated as feats rather than spells they would work in antimagic.

So something like this?

________________________________________________
======|==Bear==|===Wolf===|=Water Elly|=Fire Elly==|
---------------------------------------------------------------------
==#1==|=Maul==|=Takedown=|=Merfolk's :P|Produce Flame|
---------------------------------------------------------------------
==#2==|=Roar==|=Pack Pres==|=Creep Cold|=Fire Sphere=|
---------------------------------------------------------------------
==#3==|==etc==|==etc.===|===etc.==|====etc.====|
---------------------------------------------------------------------

So their context sensitive to whatever form your in...right?


Sidenote: It does kind of suck for spellcasters that they don't get their elly forms until much later I'd like to see "Lesser" elly forms like animal forms get.

Edit: Dammit why does this forum hate my spacebar...it looked nice before it gets posted

Insofar as the spacebar goes, it's a feature of the forums which inhibits some ASCII art and general spamminess.

Sadly, though, it can bite in the rear. This is one of those times.

I didn't have much play time back when druids were on Lama, I can;t have been the first person to call foul on these things being spells...even just for the fact that they "steal" spell slots. What were the dev responses on it...I can't find much but my search-fu might just fail

What is even worse atm, you can no longer use these "spells" in public. I used to be able to use em to take down a target dummy faster, then one day( around u16 iirc) all of a sudden, nope, can not cast this in public. So that sucked and made the dummy unnecessarily hard to kill. But yeah, they should not be spells even if they consume blue bar, just makes no sense. Heck I still dont understand why I cant maul your face off because I ran out of magic juice :p

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Originally Posted by LordRavnos

What is even worse atm, you can no longer use these "spells" in public. I used to be able to use em to take down a target dummy faster, then one day( around u16 iirc) all of a sudden, nope, can not cast this in public. So that sucked and made the dummy unnecessarily hard to kill. But yeah, they should not be spells even if they consume blue bar, just makes no sense. Heck I still dont understand why I cant maul your face off because I ran out of magic juice :p

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Goodberry also does not work in public which makes it useless since it disappears upon logout and can only be used in a tavern. So you have to enter a dungeon, make a bunch of them THAN go to the tavern...its so dumb.

I wish we could get some dev insight about the above issues are they WAI, an oversight no one thought of or just bugs to be fixed "soon"

Short Version:

- Animal form Abilties being blocked by rage (IOW why can't an angry raging bear roar...if anything it would cool/make sense to see bear form get some sort of extra bonus when raged)

- Animal form abilities not working in public places...why? I can cleave, intimidate, diplomacy, bluff,etc all in town why can;t I roar

- Goodberry...cannot use in public places...which includes taverns...but can only be used in taverns?

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Originally Posted by Failedlegend

Goodberry also does not work in public which makes it useless since it disappears upon logout and can only be used in a tavern. So you have to enter a dungeon, make a bunch of them THAN go to the tavern...its so dumb.

- Goodberry...cannot use in public places...which includes taverns...but can only be used in taverns?

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An alternative is to make them upon entering your first quest or wilderness area. Then, you've got them for if you get killed. Took a little training on my part to remember this, but certainly saves a lot of time over your method.

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Originally Posted by Coyopa

An alternative is to make them upon entering your first quest or wilderness area. Then, you've got them for if you get killed. Took a little training on my part to remember this, but certainly saves a lot of time over your method.

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It's still a pointless PITA...mind you the main issue is animal form abilities being spells...its limits a bunch of combos that should work fine and makes no sense

I remember a dev saying Flame Blade should work in public...when I last played my druid about 2 weeks ago, it didn't work :(

actually I believe it was the 3E OH that had a PRC called something like the bear rager. It required you to have the wild shape ability, and gave you rage abilities similar to a barby. When you raged youd automatically assume the form of a bear for the duration of the rage.

Frankly Id love to see them get rid of frenzy berserker from the barbs and give them something like this. Make them less kamikaze mana sponges and more visually interesting during their rage time.

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Originally Posted by Failedlegend

It's still a pointless PITA...mind you the main issue is animal form abilities being spells...its limits a bunch of combos that should work fine and makes no sense

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You do know that it could all be for balance reasons right? Druid is already a powerful class and the forms could easily push it into OP if they had greater flexibility.

hey! Quit hogging the lines and let me trip out to.

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Originally Posted by Karavek

You do know that it could all be for balance reasons right? Druid is already a powerful class and the forms could easily push it into OP if they had greater flexibility.

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Did you not get the memo? They are an udder failure. They cannot heal as good as a cleric or FvS, cannot cast DPS spells as good as a Wizard or Sorc, cannot melee even close to a fighter or a Barb. :D

I do agree though that the animal abilities should be usable in rage, might make splashing a barb a decent path.

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Originally Posted by ZeebaNeighba

I remember a dev saying Flame Blade should work in public...when I last played my druid about 2 weeks ago, it didn't work :(

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IMO flameblade should be made into Elemental Blade allowing for you to make it all four elements...Fire, Water, Lightning, Rock...otherwise functions exactly the same as it does now...might make for some cool Elf based builds.

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Originally Posted by Karavek

actually I believe it was the 3E OH that had a PRC called something like the bear rager. It required you to have the wild shape ability, and gave you rage abilities similar to a barby. When you raged youd automatically assume the form of a bear for the duration of the rage.

Frankly Id love to see them get rid of frenzy berserker from the barbs and give them something like this. Make them less kamikaze mana sponges and more visually interesting during their rage time.

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Actually I'm fine with them keeping Frenzied no reason to remove it...that would just anger people...on the other hand I can't wait for Occult Slayer to be added....I always love to make Barbs Anti-Mage types...they'd charge threw (or over) the defensive line and gut the spell caster whilst others would handle the front line.

As for "Bear Rager" or w/e it's actual name is that would be a cool Hybrid PrE *see below for quick example) that requires Druid and Barbarian Levels.

Tier 1 Bonus: Druid1/Barbarian1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Druid2/Barbarian2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Druid4/Barbarian4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Druid5/Barbarian5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Druid6/Barbarian6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Druid7/Barbarian7 CL 18
Capstone: Monk8/Barbarian8 CL 20

ie.: A Druid18/Barb2 (or Barb18/Druid 2) could only Take up to tier 2 but a Barb15/Druid5 could take Tier 4

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Originally Posted by Karavek

You do know that it could all be for balance reasons right? Druid is already a powerful class and the forms could easily push it into OP if they had greater flexibility.

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Your kidding right...it's a really nice class and all but in general it's 2nd Banana in each class...Melee, Tanking, Offensive Casting and Healing...talk about a jack of all trades master of none. There's no reason to limit multi-classing...all it allows is specialization in a single area to become more of a master of one ok of all.

To clarify their not bad their just best in slot at anything let alone OP...except style...HUGE style points everything they do LOOKS cooler...ie. Bear Intimidate and Cleave

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Originally Posted by Failedlegend

IMO flameblade should be made into Elemental Blade allowing for you to make it all four elements...Fire, Water, Lightning, Rock...otherwise functions exactly the same as it does now...might make for some cool Elf based builds.



Actually I'm fine with them keeping Frenzied no reason to remove it...that would just anger people...on the other hand I can't wait for Occult Slayer to be added....I always love to make Barbs Anti-Mage types...they'd charge threw (or over) the defensive line and gut the spell caster whilst others would handle the front line.

As for "Bear Rager" or w/e it's actual name is that would be a cool Hybrid PrE *see below for quick example) that requires Druid and Barbarian Levels.

Tier 1 Bonus: Druid1/Barbarian1 Character Level 3
Tier 2 Bonus: Druid2/Barbarian2 CL 6
Tier 3 Bonus: Druid4/Barbarian4 CL 9
Tier 4 Bonus: Druid5/Barbarian5 CL 12
Tier 5 Bonus: Druid6/Barbarian6 CL 15
Tier 6 Bonus: Druid7/Barbarian7 CL 18
Capstone: Monk8/Barbarian8 CL 20

ie.: A Druid18/Barb2 (or Barb18/Druid 2) could only Take up to tier 2 but a Barb15/Druid5 could take Tier 4



Your kidding right...it's a really nice class and all but in general it's 2nd Banana in each class...Melee, Tanking, Offensive Casting and Healing...talk about a jack of all trades master of none. There's no reason to limit multi-classing...all it allows is specialization in a single area to become more of a master of one ok of all.

To clarify their not bad their just best in slot at anything let alone OP...except style...HUGE style points everything they do LOOKS cooler...ie. Bear Intimidate and Cleave

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So far I would have to say that if they are built with a purpose in mind that they are very, very powerful indeed. Firewall, Ice storm, Storm of vengenance, sunburst, sunbeam are all very powerful spells. Toss in an earthquake, sleet storm+FOM and it is a melee's wetdream.

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Originally Posted by Mubjon

So far I would have to say that if they are built with a purpose in mind that they are very, very powerful indeed. Firewall, Ice storm, Storm of vengenance, sunburst, sunbeam are all very powerful spells. Toss in an earthquake, sleet storm+FOM and it is a melee's wetdream.

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ummm...I never said to make all the spells abilities only the bear and wolf abilities

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Originally Posted by Coyopa

An alternative is to make them upon entering your first quest or wilderness area. Then, you've got them for if you get killed. Took a little training on my part to remember this, but certainly saves a lot of time over your method.

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If Turbine really wanted to make them useful...
Have the goodberries creatable anywhere, usable in quests and tradeable(maybe).
Have them disappear on login like conjured bolts.
Effect: Grants a bonus(type TBD) to health recovered when using a shrine (or in a tavern works as is).
Maybe add's the Druid's caster level, when the berries are created, to the users heal/repair skill when calculating their health recovery from shrining. Or maybe just add a flat amount of recovery based on some formula like 1 point for every 2 Druid Caster levels. Either way it would go up as the character levels to keep it relevant and not be overly powerful.

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Originally Posted by CMPetro

If Turbine really wanted to make them useful...
Have the goodberries creatable anywhere, usable in quests and tradeable(maybe).
Have them disappear on login like conjured bolts.
Effect: Grants a bonus(type TBD) to health recovered when using a shrine (or in a tavern works as is).
Maybe add's the Druid's caster level, when the berries are created, to the users heal/repair skill when calculating their health recovery from shrining. Or maybe just add a flat amount of recovery based on some formula like 1 point for every 2 Druid Caster levels. Either way it would go up as the character levels to keep it relevant and not be overly powerful.

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I'm not to picky as long as they make it do something even mildly useful w/o being a giant PITA

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Originally Posted by Mubjon

Did you not get the memo? They are an udder failure. cannot melee even close to a fighter or a Barb. :D

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I fight next to fighters and barbarians daily. There's no minimum distance.

Joking aside...
Unless I'm in a party with uber TR players that have epic weapons and greensteel, I'm leading killcounts with random lootgen weapons, even in parties with barbarians and fighters. Should get better when I do my first TR to fix my build, finish my lit II and get some epic weapons built.

In an average pug, a properly built wolf druid will dominate kill count, unless there's a competent arcane caster or FvS in the group.

The only failure with this class is people that don't understand how to play a druid, trying to build a jack of all trades, then complaining about them on the forums and spreading misinformation. To get the most out of this class you need to specialize in something (either melee dps, melee tanking, arcane offensive casting or healing) and stop expecting to be able to do everything at once. There are no other classes that can do that, why should druid be able to?

Example, if you are a wolf druid and have any meta magic feats, or took mental toughness, your build is a failure.

A wolf druid feat list should look like:
rogue dilletante
toughness
shield mastery
improved shield mastery
3x natural fighting

There is no room for personalization here. If you aren't maxing out sneak attack and doublestrike, your build, as a wolf form dps build, is a failure.

This is just an example. You can extrapolate this to other types of druid builds. Like if you went evoker and took natural fighting? Fail.

There are some bugs, I agree, but none are crippling or more than mildly irritating. The biggest issue with this class is bad information.

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Originally Posted by hermespan

In an average pug, a properly built wolf druid will dominate kill count, unless there's a competent ANYTHING in the group.

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Fixed that for you, all things equal druids fall behind...sure a great druid will out kill a crappy barbarian...but all things equal the druid will lose...so yeah there's no "balance" reasons for making a bear roaring a "spell" nor is their a logical reason that a bear roraing is a "spell"...it's laughably dumb that a raging bear can't roar (among other bear form abilities that an enraged bear should be BETTER at)

Healing: Cleric are WAY better, FvS are better...bards are probably about equal..druids MAY be a bit better than bards
Melee: Druids are better than um...wizards and sorcerors unless their Gish type builds
Offensive Casting: Druids are definitely better than Barbarians at this...that's something...right...RIGHT!?!

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Originally Posted by hermespan

There is no room for personalization here.

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Thats a REALLY bad thing...and also needs to be fixed