Heroic versions of Underdark quests?

Hi all, I've really enjoyed adventuring in the Forgotten Realms with my capped characters but have been wondering something since the early days of MotU. Why weren't these quests done like Menechtarun, Carnival, etc where there are low-level versions accessible by everyone and epic versions accessible only for those of us who've been around for a while? I've had several friends express interest in DDO now that it has some Realms content, then get cold feet when they realized there's no low to mid level content in Eveningstar.

Because they were intended to be epic-level zones and quests only. You can't get into the King's Forest unless you're level 20. It appears that it would have been trivial to implement heroic versions, but we have no way to know that for sure. In the end, it doesn't really matter since the decision was taken that they are epic-level only.

Because that would have been more work for Turbine.

That is the simple answer and the most accurate one.

Turbine would have had to make a non-epic versions of the FR explorer zones (or just lifted the silly and dumb decision to only allow level 20+ toons in 'epic' yet super easy 'epic normal' or 'epic hard' content). The different settings on explorer zones would have been a new thing to code.

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Originally Posted by Cyr

Because that would have been more work for Turbine.

That is the simple answer and the most accurate one.

Turbine would have had to make a non-epic versions of the FR explorer zones (or just lifted the silly and dumb decision to only allow level 20+ toons in 'epic' yet super easy 'epic normal' or 'epic hard' content). The different settings on explorer zones would have been a new thing to code.

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This in and of itself tells us what the best solution would be for this situation. Allow lower levels into epic content.

Epic used to be a difficulty setting. Back then I understood why there was a cutoff line. It no longer is, and simply means "above level 20". Since epic now simply means above level 20, why am I not allowed to enter epic content on a level 18 or 19 toon? I can enter a level 16 quest on a level 14 toon if I want, but I cant enter a level 21 quest on a level 19 toon? The cutoff line is no longer necessary.

This would also help with the XP vortex that exists at those levels as well. A double TR needs exponentially more XP in the higher levels, yet those quests dont give as much XP for the most part. Turvine should allow the players to determine when their builds are ready for epic content, rather than enforcing a 3 year old absolute cutoff point from the days when the word "epic" had a completely different meaning that it does today in relation to DDO.

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Originally Posted by Chai

This in and of itself tells us what the best solution would be for this situation. Allow lower levels into epic content.

Epic used to be a difficulty setting. Back then I understood why there was a cutoff line. It no longer is, and simply means "above level 20". Since epic now simply means above level 20, why am I not allowed to enter epic content on a level 18 or 19 toon? I can enter a level 16 quest on a level 14 toon if I want, but I cant enter a level 21 quest on a level 19 toon? The cutoff line is no longer necessary.

This would also help with the XP vortex that exists at those levels as well. A double TR needs exponentially more XP in the higher levels, yet those quests dont give as much XP for the most part. Turvine should allow the players to determine when their builds are ready for epic content, rather than enforcing a 3 year old absolute cutoff point from the days when the word "epic" had a completely different meaning that it does today in relation to DDO.

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Fantastic idea, Chai!

If not implemented, level 19 will remain the level to skip.

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Originally Posted by Chai

Allow lower levels into epic content.

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I don't often agree with you, but yes, this. Absolutely.

beacuae they made what is in my opinion poor decisions regarding purple dragon knight favour, and epic elite dificulty.

if those quests were available with heroic options it would make getting this favour much much easier - id be in favour of this for what tis worth.

If epic elite is going to be designed with the intention of being superduper hard mode for the best of the best then frankly the rest of the comunity shouldnt have to play it - denying 95% of the comunity access to that favour, and associated rewards is a bad decision in my opinion.

Im totaly in favour of a super duper hard mode - but that should eb a challenge we choose to set our selves, not one we need to 'complete' to get access to any given peice of loot or reward. This cuts both ways because while ever this mode has any relevance to the majority for loot/rewards it will need to be kept atleast semi balanced, removing this critera would enable the devs to give those looking for challenege somehting to realy sink their teeth into.

For what its worth, I have completed several epic elites - i didnt find them fun tho, much like the old epics I find turning the guage up to 11 not to be the ideal solution to a request for challenge.

Thanks for the responses, all. I still have trouble seeing how MotU could be a gateway to bring Realms fans into DDO if it was designed to block newbies from quickly accessing that content, though. Am I wrong to think low and high level versions of the content would have been a better strategy?

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Originally Posted by jsaving

Thanks for the responses, all. I still have trouble seeing how MotU could be a gateway to bring Realms fans into DDO if it was designed to block newbies from quickly accessing that content, though. Am I wrong to think low and high level versions of the content would have been a better strategy?

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Ideally every quest or are could have multiple ranges that it would be available on, however that requires more work (balancing and testing) to have such available.

To really make this realm available to new players you need a Korthos equivilent area and content all the way up to 20. Hopefully they will get there at some point.

i think this area should stay above 20+, but what i would like to see is a lot more content added to fr from level 1 to 25. it will give us a lot more areas to play with. i know its a long term goal but honestly i have been capping my xp before even hitting iq reavers refuge on a 5th life tr. So i have no issue with this. of course if you do like slayer or farming then you might have a few issues.

why cant your friends just speed blast a toon to 20 and run the quests. first life xp is easily gained and really not that big a deal. plus you get the fun of building your charachter

i disagree with you totallly on the not getting rewards for running EE bear. If you have built toons capable of running that content then you should be rewarded for doing this. I love how nobody wants to work for things in this game just have stuff handed to them. I for one really like the challenge of epic elites. Snooze festing thru epic hards and getting all the loot spoon fed to me is not my idea of a challenge.

With how much easier these quests are on epic normal than slightly lower level heroic normal quests are (say Running With The Devils which is five levels lower on Normal yet significantly harder than most of Eveningstar), I see no reason at all to lock out level 13-19 characters.

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Originally Posted by Chai

Epic used to be a difficulty setting. Back then I understood why there was a cutoff line. It no longer is, and simply means "above level 20". Since epic now simply means above level 20,

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Your definition is correct, epic is now everything above level 20.

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Originally Posted by Chai

why am I not allowed to enter epic content on a level 18 or 19 toon?

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You can.
Dreaming Dark on hard is level 21, and you're allowed in with a level 19 character.


It's not an issue with the new definition, it's a problem that it only applies to certain quests. Anything below level 20 that can be made 'epic' through a harder 'heroic' difficulty is accessible, but anything following the old definition is not, as it's a separate difficulty portal.
A silly problem where they have changed the meaning of the word 'epic' yet don't apply it everywhere. I'm not for them blocking these quests to allow only 20+ when a 'heroic' quest goes above level 20, but they should really not have bothered changing the definition if they didn't want to change the mechanics.

I'd prefer they just scrap the two difficulty portals and have two separate selections, or even a drop down menu like they do for the challenges.

The realms does have sub 20 quests and adventures. I wouldn't mind seeing these get a heroic counter part that could be entered after completing the rift.. would make fore nice xp in that stretch for 3x+ lifers - seems like it should be easier then creating new material from scratch.

Should there be new high-level content for those of us who've stuck with DDO for years? Sure. Does MotU have a little bit of content for those who are just below 20th level? Yes. And is it possible for experienced gamers to speed-level and reach Eveningstar within a couple of days? Absolutely.

My concern, though, is mainly with people who don't currently play DDO but do like the Realms and could potentially have been persuaded to join the player base if they'd been able to immediately experience some of the new Realms content. In talking to people around my own gaming table who fall into this category, the two most commonly raised objections to DDO are 1) the Eberron campaign setting and 2) the lack of a narrative structure tying together DDO's various quests. They don't have any interest in creating a new character and then running unrelated quests until they can pick up the 40-60 ranks needed to get through the Demonweb and reach Eveningstar. But if the new content had been designed more like Carnival, where you can run the "baby" version at exceptionally low levels and then run the "real" content at cap, these kinds of players could immediately see that there's more to the game -- and more of a coherent narrative tie across quests -- than initially meets the eye as newbies are deposited in the Harbor and told to run toward the yellow door of their choice.

Maybe MotU has been more successful than I think at attracting new people to DDO, but it almost seems to me like it was designed not to. Which is a real shame, because the content is superb and could in my judgment have been a great "launching pad" for newbies if some different design decisions had been made along the way.

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Originally Posted by Chai

This in and of itself tells us what the best solution would be for this situation. Allow lower levels into epic content.

Epic used to be a difficulty setting. Back then I understood why there was a cutoff line. It no longer is, and simply means "above level 20". Since epic now simply means above level 20, why am I not allowed to enter epic content on a level 18 or 19 toon? I can enter a level 16 quest on a level 14 toon if I want, but I cant enter a level 21 quest on a level 19 toon? The cutoff line is no longer necessary.

This would also help with the XP vortex that exists at those levels as well. A double TR needs exponentially more XP in the higher levels, yet those quests dont give as much XP for the most part. Turvine should allow the players to determine when their builds are ready for epic content, rather than enforcing a 3 year old absolute cutoff point from the days when the word "epic" had a completely different meaning that it does today in relation to DDO.

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You make a very good point. I mean what the worst that could happen to a player over the head? They die. Oh well, someone toss him a rez.

It would be great for both levelling and grouping.

+rep

I met a coupla guys in the harbour today who had just bought the expansion and wanted to know how to get to the Forgotten Realms. I explained about the quests you need to do before you can get there. Turns out they were level 3 and Level 8! They were very disappointed that they would not be able to play it for some time...

Wonder how many others did the same and just went away after what they saw as a waste of money since they could not actually access the content for which they had paid? Don't suppose that matters to Turbine - a sale is a sale after all.

I assume it says that it is high level content only - I haven't looked to check - but I guess some people just see the Forgotten Realms tag and don't look any further. Buyer beware, I suppose, as always.

AJ

I don't know, I like it how it is--it is inline with all the other RPGs and MMOs that I play...There are simply areas that one must work on gaining access to either by quests or levels.

If you took this away, then that would be one of the last things left in this game to work towards.

However you can do quite a few quests out there starting at 16ish, as well as the challenges.

No. FR is a potato-head free zone. Keep all the potato-heads in the harbor. I want to see end game-geared stuff there, not some piece of balogna trying to sell me 7 greater essences.

Epic casual and normal quests are easier than almost every heroic quest from level 14-20 on hard or elite so this is an amusing conversation.

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Originally Posted by giggiddy

Epic casual and normal quests are easier than almost every heroic quest from level 14-20 on hard or elite so this is an amusing conversation.

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This is true, in fact, a lot of the 14-20 quests on elite are MUCH tougher than most FR epics on Hard even. Some of the old epics are still fairly tough on hard though.

I guess the 18-20 heroic xp is so bad because they want us to buy xp pots, but seriously, most of them are so bad that I wouldn't waste the time with an xp pot running to do them. An extra 20% of **** is still ****. I mainly do Vale and Reaver's until I'm capped. There is only about 4 L18-20 quests that I even bother doing.

So, after reading the thread and all accompanying posts, there are a few things I will remark on.

1) DO NOT LOWER MotU MIN LVL!!
It was mentioned that ALL heroic content can be accessed 2 levels lower than the min lvl. This is not true.
You can not step foot into Cannith Manufactury until lvl 15.
IQ is lvl 16 I believe.
Sands is LVL 8
There are plenty of examples of lvl required content and MotU should be no different.

2) Difficulty of MotU Enorm/hard vs Heroic.
The people who are talking like this are not using any perspective at all.
Heroic norm/hard is also a cake walk.
You are trying to compare at-lvl Heroic Elite to at-lvl Enorm/hard which gives an unfair comparison.
Try comparing Heroic elite to Epic Elite and it is a completely different monster.
Another issue in this is that most people running EE are running at lvl 25 which means that at least for MotU content, they are 2 lvls higher than the quest.

Most (I didn't say all and am not using this as a blanket statement) are not running EE at min lvl which is lvl 23 for most of it.

3) XP vs level.
The only reason it seems like the xp is exponentially better for the granted lvl is due to the fact that a TR does not have XP penalties past lvl 20 (THANK GOD). once they hit lvl 20, it takes the same xp for a 4th life TR as a 1st lifer.

This isn't to say that there doesn't need to be an across-the-board reassessment of the Heroic lvl XP...THERE ABSOLUTELY DOES!! There seems to be no rhyme nor reason behind the XP for most of the Stormreach content.

4) Also, getting to run MotU content should be something that you look forward to and are happy when you finally reach it...it really should be earned and worked toward.

I look forward every single life to finally hitting 20 and strapping on my MotU gear and going out in KF and raking in 120k in an hour doing messages and all the while being on a fresh ED.
It is a palate cleanser.

There is a time to grind and blaze into and through content for the end goal and their is a time to sit back and enjoy the end goal that you have worked for...sit back and enjoy it...don't rush it...you will be there soon enough. Waiting those 1 or two extra levels WILL NOT break your gaming experience...but having Turbine go back and recode all the MotU content so you can get in earlier just might...please DO NOT give them any ideas.....

Thank you for being patient with my unranty-rant.

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Originally Posted by Ushurak

Also, getting to run MotU content should be something that you look forward to and are happy when you finally reach it...it really should be earned and worked toward.

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I strongly agree, and strongly disagree, with everything you just said! :)

Strongly agree that the content as currently structured should be dumbed down so that low-level characters can do it, especially given the shortage of high-level content currently available. Also agree that the rewards available from running high-level and epic-level Eveningstar content (seals, holy symbols, etc) should remain available only to high-level and epic-level characters.

Strongly disagree that getting to see Eveningstar, and run low-level versions of its content with sharply reduced loot quality, should be considered a reward to be earned. When you produce an expansion that looks better than the rest of the game, has the best narrative structure in the game, takes place in the most popular pencil-and-paper setting, and captures the attention of non-DDO players in a way nothing else Turbine has tried over the last couple of years has done, it makes no sense to wall off that content and require newbies to prove themselves by grinding existing content -- the very content on which they had based their previous decision *not* to join the player base -- before they're allowed to try out the part of the game in which they might be potentially interested.