Dubbell O'Seven - casting/ranged focused artificer

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08-01-2012, 02:38 AM
CThruTheEgo

Dubbell O'Seven - casting/ranged focused artificer
Updated for U36.
If you need info from the pre-U36 version, see post #366 for a copy of the OP prior to U36 changes.

This is a casting/ranged/survivability focused artificer.

Dubbell O'Seven
Artificer 20
True Neutral Warforged
In-game name: Dubbell O'Seven on Sarlona

Stats
. . . . . . . .28pt. . .32pt. . .34pt. . .36pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .----. . .----. . .----. . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . .8 . . . .8 . . . .8 . . . .8. . . . . . . . 4: INT
Dexterity . . . 16 . . . 16 . . . 16 . . . 16. . . .+3. . . .8: INT
Constitution. . 15 . . . 16 . . . 17 . . . 18. . . . . . . .12: INT
Intelligence. . 17 . . . 18 . . . 18 . . . 18. . . . . . . .16: INT
Wisdom. . . . . .6 . . . .6 . . . .6 . . . .6. . . . . . . .20: INT
Charisma. . . . .6 . . . .6 . . . .6 . . . .6. . . . . . . .24: INT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28: INT

Skills
. . . . . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
Concent . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Repair. . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spellcr . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Disable . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Open Lo . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Search. . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Spot. . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
UMD . . . 4. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 1. 23
Balance . . . . . . . . . . . .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .½ .1 .1 .1 .1 .1 . 9
. . . . .------------------------------------------------------------
. . . . .32. 8. 8. 8. 8. 8. 8. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9. 9 10 10 10 10 10

Feats

.1. . . . : Point Blank Shot
.3. . . . : Rapid Shot
.4 Arti . : Precise Shot
.6. . . . : Empower Spell
.8 Arti . : Maximize Spell
.9. . . . : Spell Focus: Evocation
12. . . . : Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
12 Arti . : Improved Critical: Ranged
15. . . . : Improved Precise Shot
16 Arti . : Adamantine Body
18. . . . : Insightful Reflexes
20 Arti . : Quicken Spell
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Intensify Spell
26 Destiny: Epic Spell Power: Force
27 Epic . : Ruin
28 Destiny: Hellball
29 Destiny: Arcane Pulse
30 Epic . : Greater Ruin
30 Legend : Scion of: Plane of Earth

Spells
1. Repair Light Damage, Inflict Light Damage, Conjure Bolts, Enchant Weapons, Admixture: Cure Light Wounds, Resist Energy, Grease
2. Repair Moderate Damage, Inflict Moderate Damage, Elemental Weapons, Admixture: Cure Moderate Wounds, Byeshk Weapons, Toughen Construct, Reinforce Construct
3. Repair Serious Damage, Inflict Serious Damage, Flame Turret, Admixture: Cure Serious Wounds, Insightful Damage, Adamantine Weapons, Stoneskin
4. Repair Critical Damage, Inflict Critical Damage, Armor of Speed, Cold Iron Weapons, Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Protection from Elements, Thundering Armor
5. Prismatic Strike, Align Weapons, Silver Weapons, Radiant Forcefield
6. Blade Barrier, Tactical Detonation, Deadly Weapons, Reconstruct
Enhancements (80 AP)

Battle Engineer (41 AP)
- Battle Engineer, Infused Weapons, Infused Armor, Infused Weapons II, Infused Armor II, Master Engineer
  1. Crossbow Training, Field Scrapper III, Thaumaturgical Conduits III
  2. Crossbow Training, Caustic Shot I, Extra Action Boost III
  3. Crossbow Training, Intelligence
  4. Crossbow Training, Endless Fusilade, Shatter Defenses I, Agility Engine I, Intelligence
  5. Reconstructed Crossbows, Weapon Attachment, Thunder-Shock Weapon, Unlock Potential, Tactical Mobility
Harper Agent (23 AP)
- Agent of Good I, Intelligence, Agent of Good II, Intelligence
  1. Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness I, Strategic Combat
  2. Versatile Adept III, Know the Angles III
  3. Versatile Adept III, Intelligence
  4. Versatile Adept I
Warforged (16 AP)
- Improved Fortification, Warforged Constitution
  1. Mechanist III, Construct Toughness
  2. Warforged Tactics III
  3. Adamantine Durability III, Memories of the Last War: Arcane Slinger
  4. Memories of the Last War: Front Lines
Destiny (24 AP)

Legendary Dreadnought
1. Legendary Tactics III, Extra Action Boost III, Attack Boost I, Constitution
2. Damage Boost III
3. Critical Damage III, Haste Boost III
4. (none)
5. Advancing Blows, Devastating Critical
6. Master's Blitz
Twists of Fate (36 fate points)
1. Energy Burst: Acid (Tier 4 Draconic)
2. School Specialist: Evocation (Tier 2 Magister)
3. Precise: Evocation (Tier 2 Draconic)
4. Fey Form (Tier 2 Shiradi)
5. Stay Frosty (Tier 1 Shiradi)
Due to gear becoming outdated so quickly as well as the minimizing of power difference between named gear, lootgen, cannith crafted, and special crafting systems (e.g. slaver's), and me spending very little time playing at cap these days, I am no longer going to devise optimal final gear sets for any of my builds. I'll leave that work to others who are more familiar with final gear sets.

----------------------------

Adding the following quote here for safe-keeping in case the Lamannia forums aren't available when it's needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steelstar

The DC of Rune Arm spells is suppsed to be 10 + (Charge Tier + 1) + (INT modifier) + (Max Charge Tier - 1) + (Evocation Feat Bonuses). The Evocation Bonuses were not applying.

With this fix, bonuses from abilities like the Spell Focus: Evocation feat, Arcanotechnician's Evocation Focus enhancement, and the Evocation Specialist ability from the Magister destiny should all contribute to a Rune Arm's DC.

At the moment, item/augment based sources of Evocation DC bonuses do not affect the DC of Rune Arm shots.

As of U29, per the release notes:

Quote:

Artificer Rune Arm DC's now include all sources of Evocation DC Boosts.
08-01-2012, 05:50 AM
wax_on_wax_off

The long awaited build.
Feats:
Feat: (Selected) Point Blank Shot
Feat: (Selected) Rapid Shot
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Precise Shot
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Spell Focus: Evocation
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Evocation
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Selected) Improved Precise Shot
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Quicken Spell
Feat: (Selected) Insightful Reflexes
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Empower Spell
21) Epic toughness
24) ESF Evocation

I'd swap Empower Spell for Precision. Empower adds a set amount to your spells now, I saw someone post it at being about ~+75 damage added to Blade Barrier (0.75 of base BB damage - 15d6 - only comes out to ~40 so not sure where 75 comes from.), just doesn't seem worth it considering the alternatives and a somewhat restricted SP pool.

I'd consider swapping Insightful Reflexes for Adamantine Body. You get a nice chunk of PRR and AC from AB which might do more for survivability than a difference in reflex saves that might only be situational and could situationally be remedied with gear swaps (+10 reflex chaos docent, +4 insight, +8/+3 dex etc). To really know one way or the other it'd be best to work out what your reflex save will be and what sort of targets are reasonable (30ish was plenty in U13 but not sure how that's changed in U14 EE content).

I'd swap Epic Toughness for Combat Archery. +1[Weapon Damage] on Needle gives 20+ DPS extra which is quite considerable. The 2% dodge is decent as well. The cost is -2 intelligence for the +2 dex to qualify which will give you better AB (you need ~70 AB to keep 95% hit rate with precision against all foes) and better reflex (so skipping IR becomes more feasible). I don't think a warforged artificer needs Epic Toughness, you've got quickened reconstructs, evasion, a solid HP pool already and ranged combat style, perhaps instead focus on forms of aggro management (Shadowdancer provides quite a few possibilities). I'd even consider changing base stats to 8/18/14/18/6/6 to have your cake and eat it too (and lose a total of 90 HP).

For enhancements I'd look closely at Kinetic Casting and Deadly Kinetics. After the first rank in each you're getting only a little over +1% spell damage DPS per AP spent which isn't very cost effective. I'd definitely be wanting to have Wand and Scroll Mastery at least at rank III - realistically it should be IV. 1 rank in skill boost seems a no brainer (to get that resurrection scroll off to save the raid despite a death penalty or 3).

Gear wise Windhowler Bracers should be on wrist slot, currently your bracers aren't doing much for you. For cloak slot I'd be looking at swapping in either of the Stealth Strike cloaks situationally (Wretched Twilight from Abbot or Magewright Cloak). Not sure if Manslayer is working on the smoke goggles, possibly only in SA range, I do hear it works fine on Epic Stalker Ring though so might want to stick with that until it's fixed.

For the racial choice, I prefer helf or human myself but either works with its own set of pros and cons and you seem to have a good grasp on it. The bit that gets me is the +25% damage/Endless Fusillade combo with Versatility: Damage, it's just too good to miss.

I wouldn't use a stone on a pure arti, too easy to level already, perhaps pick up a ranger life instead and then TR to artificer?
08-01-2012, 06:26 AM
Skavenaps

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

The long awaited build.

I'd consider swapping Insightful Reflexes for Adamantine Body. You get a nice chunk of PRR and AC from AB which might do more for survivability than a difference in reflex saves that might only be situational and could situationally be remedied with gear swaps (+10 reflex chaos docent, +4 insight, +8/+3 dex etc). To really know one way or the other it'd be best to work out what your reflex save will be and what sort of targets are reasonable (30ish was plenty in U13 but not sure how that's changed in U14 EE content).

heavy armor its a bad choice for a shadowdancer...
08-01-2012, 07:07 AM
wax_on_wax_off

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skavenaps

heavy armor its a bad choice for a shadowdancer...

Oh true! Scrap that then. To think that I'd let myself be convinced of the value of AB on a WF Artificer without retorting with that gem :P

Edit: Mithral Body is still an option.
08-01-2012, 03:00 PM
CThruTheEgo

Thank you for the very extensive and detailed feedback Wax.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

I'd swap Empower Spell for Precision. Empower adds a set amount to your spells now, I saw someone post it at being about ~+75 damage added to Blade Barrier (0.75 of base BB damage - 15d6 - only comes out to ~40 so not sure where 75 comes from.), just doesn't seem worth it considering the alternatives and a somewhat restricted SP pool.

This build is first and foremost a casting focused artificer making empower a must have. If I find that I am burning through my SP too quickly or that empower is not doing much for me, I may switch it out for precision. To that end, I will probably switch empower and maximize so that I can more easily exchange empower if desired.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

I'd consider swapping Insightful Reflexes for Adamantine Body. You get a nice chunk of PRR and AC from AB which might do more for survivability than a difference in reflex saves that might only be situational and could situationally be remedied with gear swaps (+10 reflex chaos docent, +4 insight, +8/+3 dex etc). To really know one way or the other it'd be best to work out what your reflex save will be and what sort of targets are reasonable (30ish was plenty in U13 but not sure how that's changed in U14 EE content).

While I don't know exactly what the body feats offer with the recent changes (I'll have to look this up next time I'm in game since Wiki doesn't seem to have the changes yet), I'm fairly certain insightful reflexes will do more for the survivability of this build. This build is intended for EE content and extreme survivability is key for it. But let's do a reflex breakdown anyway.

Reflex Save:
8 base
8 dex26 (16 base +3 tome +7 item)
6 resistance item (stone heart)
4 GH
2 Good luck
28 base (did I miss anything?)

I'd rather not go up against EE casters with only a 28 reflex save. And while the gear swaps you suggest are fine for traps, they don't work for combat situations. As I showed in the OP, insightful reflexes will add 11 giving a base of 39 reflex save. I shouldn't have much trouble with a reflex like that. Adding in the gear swaps you suggest for traps will give another 10 for a 49 against traps. I'm pretty comfortable with those numbers. The only feat I give up for insightful reflexes is precision, which I think is well worth the sacrifice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

I'd swap Epic Toughness for Combat Archery. +1[Weapon Damage] on Needle gives 20+ DPS extra which is quite considerable. The 2% dodge is decent as well. The cost is -2 intelligence for the +2 dex to qualify which will give you better AB (you need ~70 AB to keep 95% hit rate with precision against all foes) and better reflex (so skipping IR becomes more feasible). I don't think a warforged artificer needs Epic Toughness, you've got quickened reconstructs, evasion, a solid HP pool already and ranged combat style, perhaps instead focus on forms of aggro management (Shadowdancer provides quite a few possibilities). I'd even consider changing base stats to 8/18/14/18/6/6 to have your cake and eat it too (and lose a total of 90 HP).

I don't understand how you get +20 dps. Do you have some numbers to back that up? I've haven't seen any new dps calcs. Also, as I've already mentioned, two of the primary goals of this build are extreme survivability and casting capability, and giving up epic toughness and -2 int for +1[W] isn't worth it imo. And you would lose 100 HP with the stats you suggest, which does make for more balance between survivability, ranged dps, and casting capability, but I chose greater survivability for a little less ranged dps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

For enhancements I'd look closely at Kinetic Casting and Deadly Kinetics. After the first rank in each you're getting only a little over +1% spell damage DPS per AP spent which isn't very cost effective. I'd definitely be wanting to have Wand and Scroll Mastery at least at rank III - realistically it should be IV. 1 rank in skill boost seems a no brainer (to get that resurrection scroll off to save the raid despite a death penalty or 3).

I know what kinetic casting and deadly kinetics offers, but there isn't really anything else that is a must have imo. I maxed these out because I had taken everything else I deemed necessary. If I decide to add in something else (electric line for Toven's for example), these would be the first to go for sure. Keep in mind also that these affect the rune arm as well, so that means more and bigger crits from both the rune arm and spells. One of the benefits of going WF, in fact, is being able to max these lines since WF have far fewer race enhancements that contribute to a build such as this. Wand and scroll mastery2 is enough imo. Skill boost isn't needed. This character was an artificer in his first life (which also adds a passive +1 to UMD) and the UMD was stupidly high, even a few deaths didn't matter. And I've played plenty of trappers before and skill boost is definitely not needed when you have the right gear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

Gear wise Windhowler Bracers should be on wrist slot, currently your bracers aren't doing much for you. For cloak slot I'd be looking at swapping in either of the Stealth Strike cloaks situationally (Wretched Twilight from Abbot or Magewright Cloak). Not sure if Manslayer is working on the smoke goggles, possibly only in SA range, I do hear it works fine on Epic Stalker Ring though so might want to stick with that until it's fixed.

I need at least 3 epic slots for the must haves: con6, GFL, and exc int1. It's nice to have good luck as well. The ring of the master artificer gives me con6 and GFL, so I have to keep either the cloak or bracers to fit in the exc int1. I don't really like having this on the cloak as there are some situations when I don't want fire shield hot to proc (though admittedly not very many) and would swap this out. But only losing 1 DC shouldn't be too much of a problem in those situations so it might be worth it to put exc int1 on the cloak and switch the epic wind bracers for the windhowler bracers. Though if I get Toven's then the epic wind bracers become more of a necessity. I don't think stealth strike is that much of a necessity. I'm not worried about pulling trash agro, and want to much of the time. And I didn't really have any problems with boss agro on my arti life before, even with human versatility damage boost and endless fusillade. Last I heard, manslayer on the smoke goggles was not working, but I have faith in Turbine :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

For the racial choice, I prefer helf or human myself but either works with its own set of pros and cons and you seem to have a good grasp on it. The bit that gets me is the +25% damage/Endless Fusillade combo with Versatility: Damage, it's just too good to miss.

For better balance between survivability, ranged dps, and casting capability, yes helf is probably the better choice, as I pointed out in my OP. But I chose to go with the best survivability and casting dps, which is WF. And I think I give up little crossbow dps (combat archery, precision, human versatility damage boost) for great gains in both survivability (HP, reflex saves) and casting dps (nearly max int and spell DC's, max force line). For me an artificer's primary dps is spells/runearm, not the crossbow. So imo, casting capability should be the arti's primary focus, not crossbow dps. At least that is the goal with this build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

I wouldn't use a stone on a pure arti, too easy to level already, perhaps pick up a ranger life instead and then TR to artificer?

The arti is fun and fairly easy to level, but I'm not a fan of the XP grind. To me, a 3rd lifer is a bit of a discipline and endurance test and I don't really enjoy it even with all the xp bonuses now. I've already gone through a 2nd life as a sorc just to get to a 36 point build to make epic toughness a viable option. And I wanted to use the stone on a 3rd lifer for the better xp gain from it. So there is no way I'm grinding out another life. I'm ready to be back at endgame as an arti and put this build to the test.

Thanks for the feedback Wax.
08-01-2012, 10:47 PM
FooWonk

Re: ED, Feats & Enhancements

I don't think Shadowdancer is the best destiny for a primary caster build. I'd suggest you try Red Dragon Initiate. The caster levels will help tactical detonation and prismatic strike.

With 28 caster levels, Empower is a big hitter (adding nearly 300 average damage to tactical detonation considering crits). With 6d6+13 SA, Precision becomes a big hitter against high fortification enemies. Try out both destinies as you need the Fate points, and decide on which feat based upon which destiny you want to play.

Until you decide, I'd keep Empower.

Consider dumping Quicken. Most everyone will disagree with me, but I have 3 multi-TR self-healing casters that do not use Quicken. I have it on the Favored Soul because Mass Heal is too slow to be useful.

Epic Toughness isn't useful on a ranged caster. Without it you'll be very robust.

I also recommend maxing out the Wand & Scroll mastery.
08-02-2012, 12:00 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooWonk

Re: ED, Feats & Enhancements

I don't think Shadowdancer is the best destiny for a primary caster build. I'd suggest you try Red Dragon Initiate. The caster levels will help tactical detonation and prismatic strike.

With 28 caster levels, Empower is a big hitter (adding nearly 300 average damage to tactical detonation considering crits). With 6d6+13 SA, Precision becomes a big hitter against high fortification enemies. Try out both destinies as you need the Fate points, and decide on which feat based upon which destiny you want to play.

Until you decide, I'd keep Empower.

Yeah I'll be maxing at least magister, draconic, and shadowdancer just to get the fate points I need to twist the evocation dc's. So I figured I will see how I like each of them and go from there. Though I have to say I really like the possibility of getting evasion on a pure arti.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooWonk

Consider dumping Quicken. Most everyone will disagree with me, but I have 3 multi-TR self-healing casters that do not use Quicken. I have it on the Favored Soul because Mass Heal is too slow to be useful.

Some say it isn't needed, but I have found it useful. I've died more than I prefer to due to failed concentration checks on my self-healing casters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooWonk

Epic Toughness isn't useful on a ranged caster. Without it you'll be very robust.

Epic toughness was a primary goal when I developed this build. And I'll admit it will be overkill for most content, but I'm looking to do EE with this build, and I certainly don't want to get there and find out I'm too squishy. If I find out it's overkill, changes can always be made.

Thanks for the feedback FooWonk.
08-02-2012, 12:38 AM
jakeelala

everyone keeps trying to say not to do this with my WF arty.

They are wrong. This is a fantastic build. I will work in a torc though since SP will be an issue in EE content. I also dont love empower. Its rare that i kite things in a BB and it isn't still spinning when they're dead. This means it's actually doing more damage than necessary for the SP cost. I'd rather kite them 2 or 3 more times through it and get to cast it more times on longer harder content. I think it's not a huge deal, just maybe a preference.
08-02-2012, 10:06 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeelala

everyone keeps trying to say not to do this with my WF arty.

They are wrong. This is a fantastic build. I will work in a torc though since SP will be an issue in EE content. I also dont love empower. Its rare that i kite things in a BB and it isn't still spinning when they're dead. This means it's actually doing more damage than necessary for the SP cost. I'd rather kite them 2 or 3 more times through it and get to cast it more times on longer harder content. I think it's not a huge deal, just maybe a preference.

Glad you like the build. I'm not 100% sure about empower either, which is why I'll take it in a regular feat slot in case I decide to switch it out. One thing I like about the gear setup is that the shaman's beads are an easy item to lose when you need to swap in the torc for SP gain. I have yet to get a torc (or toven's), but SP shouldn't be a problem once I do. Thanks for the feedback jakeelala.
08-02-2012, 11:56 AM
jakeelala

The party forum line is that Artificers aren't good at end game.

Exsqueeze me? With DC 46 Tactical and BB, and the most powerful BB in the game, this is not end game weaksauce. People just build them wrong most of the time. Xbow damage is just gravy. Plus with some of the better debuffing repeaters, crafted or looted this is just a silly POV by most people.

I have a really high level crafter and I just hit 20 on my Arty TR (eventual) completionist. He has 2 Ranger PL's which makes using a repeater a little more compelling. But I've got my +8 stone heart waiting. I made him some +4 Attack, Greater Evoc goggles with a large guild slot for HP. I may never take those off him.

I don't have an avi'thoul ring yet, so I'm using cove gloves for the sneak attack. When I'm torqing, I throw on DQ gloves for the greater spearblock. I do have a tier 2 manslayer, but no Master Arty ring yet. It looks great on paper, but is it as good as it seems?
08-02-2012, 02:01 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeelala

The party forum line is that Artificers aren't good at end game.

Exsqueeze me? With DC 46 Tactical and BB, and the most powerful BB in the game, this is not end game weaksauce. People just build them wrong most of the time. Xbow damage is just gravy. Plus with some of the better debuffing repeaters, crafted or looted this is just a silly POV by most people.

I have a really high level crafter and I just hit 20 on my Arty TR (eventual) completionist. He has 2 Ranger PL's which makes using a repeater a little more compelling. But I've got my +8 stone heart waiting. I made him some +4 Attack, Greater Evoc goggles with a large guild slot for HP. I may never take those off him.

I don't have an avi'thoul ring yet, so I'm using cove gloves for the sneak attack. When I'm torqing, I throw on DQ gloves for the greater spearblock. I do have a tier 2 manslayer, but no Master Arty ring yet. It looks great on paper, but is it as good as it seems?

Yeah an arti can be great for endgame. They've really got a lot of tricks up their sleaves. One of my favorite aspects about the arti is that it is not totally reliant on the blue bar and has a very respectable backup with the crossbow. As far as viability, I haven't played this build to cap yet. I just hit 20 on my 34 pt sorc life so I will be TRing into this probably within the next week (I figure I might as well farm out some epic destiny xp while I'm a new 20 again). A lot of the gear is certainly negotiable. It is primarily the int items which are must haves to keep DCs high.
08-04-2012, 01:58 AM
silvac

Fairly sure that Epic Toughness requires 21 Base con (Starting Con at level 1 + Level-ups) which your level ups are going into intelligence obviously. Also I'd suggest swapping out empower spell for something to increase ranged dps, maximize should be all you need, other than looks like an excellent build, very high DC's which I like. If you still really want empower then put it in where epic toughness was. Other than that it looks very solid, looking forward to seeing you level him up.
08-04-2012, 12:38 PM
nibel

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvac

Fairly sure that Epic Toughness requires 21 Base con (Starting Con at level 1 + Level-ups) which your level ups are going into intelligence obviously.

+3 tome with 18 base also give 21 Con.
08-04-2012, 08:14 PM
silvac

Quote:

Originally Posted by nibel

+3 tome with 18 base also give 21 Con.

Didn't catch that :p
08-04-2012, 11:52 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by silvac

Fairly sure that Epic Toughness requires 21 Base con (Starting Con at level 1 + Level-ups) which your level ups are going into intelligence obviously. Also I'd suggest swapping out empower spell for something to increase ranged dps, maximize should be all you need, other than looks like an excellent build, very high DC's which I like. If you still really want empower then put it in where epic toughness was. Other than that it looks very solid, looking forward to seeing you level him up.

Thanks for the feedback silvac. It is actually quite easy to qualify for epic toughness on this build with 18 starting con and a +3 tome, which is why it is so hard to pass up. But I decided 652 HP was a bit overkill and to take combat archery instead of epic toughness. To fit combat archery requires losing either 50 HP from epic toughness and 2 int to put 2 level ups into dex, or dropping starting con to 14 and increasing starting dex to 18 for a net loss of 100 HP. Dropping the DC's on this build is simply not an option for me. So I decided 552 base HP will be enough. With the con ship buff and a rage clicky I'll still have 602.

I will be keeping empower but will take it as a regular feat to swap it out for precision if I decide it is not needed. The only spell power boost from items for blade barrier will be the potency60 on the archaic device, so I'd like to keep empower for now and see how it performs. I may also swap precision in to see how I like that and decide after trying them both.

Updated the OP with the changes.
08-05-2012, 09:43 AM
chyribdus

For the record, Precision feat is a very POOR choice for this particular build. It triples spell cool down times and this build is designed at least partly around it's spellcasting ability just to get a 5% bonus to hit with your repeater. This would very much gimp this build
08-05-2012, 09:53 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by chyribdus

For the record, Precision feat is a very POOR choice for this particular build. It triples spell cool down times and this build is designed at least partly around it's spellcasting ability just to get a 5% bonus to hit with your repeater. This would very much gimp this build

The feat description is currently bugged. It grants 5% to hit and bypasses 25% fort. See this post by Eladrin:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...00&postcount=5

Eladrin's description says nothing about a spell cooldown increase.
08-05-2012, 07:38 PM
FooWonk

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

The feat description is currently bugged. It grants 5% to hit and bypasses 25% fort. See this post by Eladrin:

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...00&postcount=5

Eladrin's description says nothing about a spell cooldown increase.

The triple cooldown is only for defensive stances (combat expertise, resilience, etc.)

Precision is an offensive stance and does not increase cooldowns. I keep it on 100% of the time for my artificer with 9d6+13 SA damage.
08-06-2012, 12:38 PM
Loriac

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

Oh true! Scrap that then. To think that I'd let myself be convinced of the value of AB on a WF Artificer without retorting with that gem :P

Edit: Mithral Body is still an option.

Mithral body is a great option with shadowdancer, if you take lithe 2 or 3. With lithe 3 and dex of 30-32, you end up slightly ahead of adamantine body for the high end armors. Lithe mitigates the issue of high end docents not scaling for dex for wf (vs. fleshie light and medium armor which does scale). Its also something you'd take anyway for the +6 to reflex saves, so its not even an opportunity cost.

Its so good imo that I'd actually twist in lithe if I decided to use a different ED as my primary. Without it, you may as well not be wearing armor, with it you are competitive with other light/medium armor users.

You lose out on PRR, which ends up being BAB / 2 for wf I think, but the defensive capabilities from shadowdancer should help out a lot.
08-06-2012, 12:46 PM
Loriac

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

Thank you for the very extensive and detailed feedback Wax.
This build is first and foremost a casting focused artificer making empower a must have. If I find that I am burning through my SP too quickly or that empower is not doing much for me, I may switch it out for precision. To that end, I will probably switch empower and maximize so that I can more easily exchange empower if desired.

The only damage spell at end game that you'd use empower (or even maximise) for is BB; neither prismatic strike nor tactical detonation have useful damage beyond their cc capabilities. That said, the best case scenario for empower is as follows:

Blade barrier is 15d6, which using DDO weighted dice gives base damage of 75 (as its really 15d3+45). Assuming a 18% crit chance and 2.5x crit damage multiplier (i.e. a 7/6/6 ap spend + greater arcane lore slotted somewhere), you end up with base damage of 95, which means empower is worth 95*0.75=72 at most. I found I wasn't using blade barrier so much in the expac, unless I was solo'ing (in which case scaling more than makes up for the loss of using empower).

I don't think kinetic lore affects BB, hence greater arcane lore noted above. You could create an alchemical repeater with lacerating lore, however that seems to me suboptimal vs. making a dps based repeater instead.

As you're levelling, I could see a use for empower and maximise, but my preference would be to take maximise first; on my arti, I found that anytime I was using blast rod say, I wanted stuff around me dead fast (if this wasn't the case, then I'd just use my repeater / runearm to do the job slowly but steadily). At the levels you use the lower level nukes, maximise tends to be sufficient (particularly if you slot in something like iron beads or bracers of wind). Also worth noting that you can slot in the level 8 tier 3 bracers of wind at level 6 using masterful craftsmanship, this would make a level 6 maximised blast rod pretty potent I should think.
08-07-2012, 09:43 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

...snip...

Thanks for the feedback Loriac. The only other feat worth taking is precision. It can be argued that both are only of marginal benefit, so it's really a personal choice between better spell or ranged dps. I'm taking empower at level 12 as a regular feat so that I can swap it out for precision and decide between the two from my own experience, which is also why maximize is taken at level 20.
08-07-2012, 09:46 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by FooWonk

The triple cooldown is only for defensive stances (combat expertise, resilience, etc.)

Precision is an offensive stance and does not increase cooldowns. I keep it on 100% of the time for my artificer with 9d6+13 SA damage.

I didn't think the triple cooldown applied to precision, but I also did not realize it was only for defensive stances. Good to know for sure that this does not apply. Thanks FooWonk.
08-07-2012, 10:06 AM
wax_on_wax_off

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

I didn't think the triple cooldown applied to precision, but I also did not realize it was only for defensive stances. Good to know for sure that this does not apply. Thanks FooWonk.

With Shadowdancer you can have up to 6d6+13 sneak attack (34 average/hit) and temporarily remove enemies immunity to sneak attack if they have it on vorpal hits. Therefore, on any enemy with 25% or more fortification Precision will likely add 34*.25=8.5 sneak attack damage/hit. This applies to warforged, raid bosses, undead, constructs, elementals etc.

The additional crits are also important. Against 100% fort foes your crossbow goes from 23/20 critical profile to 19/20, with precision it goes back up to 20/20 which is a 5.3% DPS increase on your first number damage.

Finally, the +5% to hit will matter most of the time as AB is usually lower as you use Insightful Damage and don't have class/race based sneak attack bonuses to hit. It isn't affected by diminishing returns either as it moves the curve rather than slides along it much like proficiency and PBS bonuses.

Precision is a very important feat on any ranged character.
08-13-2012, 01:29 PM
jakeelala

So I wanted to throw out an update.

I have capped my WF Arty 20 (Deflection, on Khyber).

I bought a +8 Int Stoneheart of the AH for 300k plat last week (this week they're 1.5mil, what happened???)

Also my first run through the demonweb flagging quests I pulled a +3 Int Planar crystal. I've never had such luck in my whole life.

Anyway, I've now capped Draconic Incarnation, Shiradi Champion, and I'm wokring through Shadow Dancer.

My DC's are 44 to 45 for Tactical and BB and Prismatic. It's AWESOME. I am doing consistent CC in EE content everyday. I'm thrilled with the builds performance. I currently twist +3 Evo DC's no matte what ED I'm leveling from Magister. Since I still dont have a lot of fate points, I'm also twisting +6 reflex saves as well (Tier 1, magister or shadowdancer I think I cant remember).

If I had to sum up, I would say for XP zerging, or in a really good group, and challenges, draconic is the way to go. The burst DPS is INSANE. I am regularly bursting for 2-4k a pop. My energy vortex hits for 2-400 every few seconds, and draging breath seems to average 1500-2500. I've maxed Arty fire spell power, and put a point or two into the crit enhancement lines for fire too.

This gives me great damage on all my spells and ED abilities while in Draconic. When not in Draconic, I still get a great boost to Arty fire spell damage. With a cloak of flames, I'm extremely happy about damage. Also the wings are awesome, and the DC is 51 on the knowckdown. I do strongly feel the vortex and burst need their cooldowns lowered significantly. Wiz and Sorcs get SLA's that do as much damage and they can spam them like mad. I'm not asking for a 5sp SLA with all metamagics on a 2 second cooldown. But a minute or two between ED Draconic abilities is ridiculous. This is THE sorc destiny.

Moving on: shiradi is awesome too. I don't see it proccing that much on my Evocation spells which is disturbing. I like bunch mobs up and drop a BB and a tactical, and I'm not noticing the procs much compared to my repeater, but maybe I'm just not being thorough enough in checking. I think Shiradi is the Arty destiny for long, hard EE quests and raids. You'll run out of SP and dragon breaths in Draconic after abou 15-20 minutes, and they're hard to use on raid bosses or lots of red named like in Caught in the Web. Shiradi would shine in these instances I believe. But for good old room clearing in sane power, go Draconic.

This brings us to Shadowdancer. I'm sad to say I don't have a lot of experience with it yet. I'm only barely level 3. And it really gets good at level 5 with evasion and Consume. I guess this one is more like SHiradi: it 's SP-less benefits make it suitable for an Arty trying to do damage to A LOT OF MOBS over A LONG TIME. Again, longer EE quests and raids come to mind. Shiradi is general DPS increases, while Shadowdancer will increase your DC's (if you use the INT) and give you evasion. There aren't a lot of places where I feel like I NEED evasion with 40 reflex and 600HP, but I'm sure I just don't know what I'm missing. I'll report back once I've had evasion for a few a days.
08-13-2012, 02:46 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeelala

So I wanted to throw out an update...

Thanks for the update jakeelala. I TR'ed from sorc to arti last Friday but then came down with the plague and haven't played much. Still level 6 atm.

I've recently heard from another poster on here that the magister evocation specialist and draconic incarnation precise casting bonuses do not stack. Said they tried it on their druid and DC's were only showing the +3 from magister. I don't know yet if that was in the spell description or combat log, but further confirmation on whether or not these stack is still needed. Since heroic enhancements don't necessarily stack, it wouldn't surprise me if epic enhancements didn't either. But imo, epic destiny enhancements should all work together for the sake of variability and creativity alone, not to mention the amount of work required to gain the fate points to twist several different abilities. And after all, they are supposed to make our characters "epic," aren't they?

I've still got a ways to go before I'm able to test this myself so if you are able to, I'd be very grateful for some testing to confirm this. I'll probably start a new thread today to see if anyone has actually tested this and I'll update here if I find anything else out.

Thanks again for the update and glad you are enjoying the build.
08-13-2012, 03:20 PM
jakeelala

ill test it now. im pretty sure they're stacking

My BB DC at 25 in Shiradi with 42 Int, no Evo DC twists: DC 37

Draconic, 46 Int, and precise evocation: DC 41 (+2 DC Draconic and +2 DC from 4 Int)

Draconic, 46 Int, with precise Evo AND Magister Evo SPecialist (+3 DC) twisted: DC 44.

CONFIRMED: Stacking of Magister and Draconic DC.
08-13-2012, 10:39 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeelala

ill test it now. im pretty sure they're stacking

My BB DC at 25 in Shiradi with 42 Int, no Evo DC twists: DC 37

Draconic, 46 Int, and precise evocation: DC 41 (+2 DC Draconic and +2 DC from 4 Int)

Draconic, 46 Int, with precise Evo AND Magister Evo SPecialist (+3 DC) twisted: DC 44.

CONFIRMED: Stacking of Magister and Draconic DC.

Very good news! Thanks jakeelala. So if they stack when one is coming from the primary destiny, then there's no reason they shouldn't stack if they're both twisted. Thanks for testing this.
08-19-2012, 07:15 AM
Loriac

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeelala

So I wanted to throw out an update.

I have capped my WF Arty 20 (Deflection, on Khyber).

...

This brings us to Shadowdancer. I'm sad to say I don't have a lot of experience with it yet. I'm only barely level 3. And it really gets good at level 5 with evasion and Consume. I guess this one is more like SHiradi: it 's SP-less benefits make it suitable for an Arty trying to do damage to A LOT OF MOBS over A LONG TIME. Again, longer EE quests and raids come to mind. Shiradi is general DPS increases, while Shadowdancer will increase your DC's (if you use the INT) and give you evasion. There aren't a lot of places where I feel like I NEED evasion with 40 reflex and 600HP, but I'm sure I just don't know what I'm missing. I'll report back once I've had evasion for a few a days.

I'm very interested to hear your feedback on SD. My intention is to have my main be an Arti with 3xPL Sorc (working on the final sorc life atm), and after looking at the various EDs, I came to the conclusion that SD may well offer the best offense and defence for an arti. Specifically, whilst the SC dps increases look great (2d100 force per shot @ 7% likelihood etc) once you adjust for expected damage, you end up around 20-25 damage per shot. SD meanwhile gives 6d6 SA, plus the additional ranged damage for the epic moment. Overall, it seems to me that SD should in theory give a similar dps boost to SC, with each being better/worse than the other on a situational basis.

Where SD shines I think is in the defensive capabilities - shadow form, increased dodge, lithe (particularly good for wf artis imo). As far as I can tell, no other ED tree offers similar defensive benefits for the arti.

When I did a theoretical allocation of points into the tree, I came to the conclusion that I'd be able to afford at most 2 stat increases (and my preference would be to take just 1). I'd be interested to hear any feedback on consume, as I suspect that whilst it sounds better than the epic moment on paper, in practice its not really all that great (DCs etc. apparently quite low). The epic moment meanwhile, whilst being quite meh for a melee character, offers ranged characters an extra 3d6 aoe damage per shot for 30 secs - this looks like it adds up to a fair amount of damage, say around 150d6 to all mobs hit by the aoe in a best case scenario (not counting the 2d6 per shot to the primary target).
08-20-2012, 04:27 PM
Valiance

Looking forward to updates of this thread. Great info here.

One question I have; do the levels of artificer you get from Draconic and Magister add directly to rune arm damage? i.e. will I be doing a d25 on those if you have those epic destinies? If so then I don't see how Draconic can be beat.

V
08-21-2012, 03:53 PM
Valiance

Also what do you guys think about this gear layout for a Arti very similar to the one in the OP:

Goggles- Green Steel Conc Op
Helm- Green Steel +45 hp, hvy fort
Neck- Verik’s and swap (Noxious grtr arcane lore, torc)
Trinket- Litany
Cloak- Cloak of Wolf Exc Seeker 5, Dodge 4%, Attack +4 Diversion 20
Belt- Con 6 of Dodge 2% Large Guild slot (+80 sp) (Cannith Crafted)
Ring1- Stalker (seeker 6, exc sneak 2/4, manslayer, ghostly, exc int 1,)
Ring2- Seal of Avithol (Dex7, sneak 5/8, exc sneak 3/5, improve deception)
Gloves- Greater Evocation of good luck +2 (large guild slot +20 hp) (Cannith Crafted)
Docent- +8 int, res 6, protection 6, toughness
Boots- Rock boots (spr acid lore, stone guard, earth grab guard, acid res 10, grtr false life (slot), +1 exc con (slot))
Rune Arm- Corrosion 114, potency 76, rough hide 6, insight int 3

To me that gear layout should be incredible dps. Seeker +11, Sneak of 10attack/17dmg, very high int, and my guy has mithral body feat and it gives very nice AC as well.

My thought would be this character would switch back and forth between Draconic, Shiradi and Shadow Dancer. The improved deception allows sneak attack to work more often, and the combination of the new Acid Rune Arm with Rock boots should give great damage. I of course will use force rune arm as well situationally.

Thoughts?
08-22-2012, 03:33 AM
jakeelala

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valiance

Also what do you guys think about this gear layout for a Arti very similar to the one in the OP:

Goggles- Green Steel Conc Op
Helm- Green Steel +45 hp, hvy fort
Neck- Verik’s and swap (Noxious grtr arcane lore, torc)
Trinket- Litany
Cloak- Cloak of Wolf Exc Seeker 5, Dodge 4%, Attack +4 Diversion 20
Belt- Con 6 of Dodge 2% Large Guild slot (+80 sp) (Cannith Crafted)
Ring1- Stalker (seeker 6, exc sneak 2/4, manslayer, ghostly, exc int 1,)
Ring2- Seal of Avithol (Dex7, sneak 5/8, exc sneak 3/5, improve deception)
Gloves- Greater Evocation of good luck +2 (large guild slot +20 hp) (Cannith Crafted)
Docent- +8 int, res 6, protection 6, toughness
Boots- Rock boots (spr acid lore, stone guard, earth grab guard, acid res 10, grtr false life (slot), +1 exc con (slot))
Rune Arm- Corrosion 114, potency 76, rough hide 6, insight int 3

To me that gear layout should be incredible dps. Seeker +11, Sneak of 10attack/17dmg, very high int, and my guy has mithral body feat and it gives very nice AC as well.

My thought would be this character would switch back and forth between Draconic, Shiradi and Shadow Dancer. The improved deception allows sneak attack to work more often, and the combination of the new Acid Rune Arm with Rock boots should give great damage. I of course will use force rune arm as well situationally.

Thoughts?

With acid draconic that could be pretty nice. I really need noxious embers though because I still use lucid dreams for arcane lore. I've just recently twisted energy burst (fire + cloak of flames) because its just too good. Of course I don't have room for anymore twists but I don't really care. Your gear looks fine. Personally I prefer the new PDK set with raid Xbow for end gear though. +3/3 is rad.
08-22-2012, 12:54 PM
Valiance

Ya I really like the seeker 11 combined with the x3 crit of the new raid repeater. Also I don't want to use up my docent slot to try make the set bonus. It is nice but just uses up too many slots for me.

Do you know if the arcane destinies add 5 levels of dmg to rune arms or do they cap out at 20. I'll be able to test this pretty soon but am curious about that.
08-23-2012, 12:45 AM
jakeelala

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valiance

Ya I really like the seeker 11 combined with the x3 crit of the new raid repeater. Also I don't want to use up my docent slot to try make the set bonus. It is nice but just uses up too many slots for me.

Do you know if the arcane destinies add 5 levels of dmg to rune arms or do they cap out at 20. I'll be able to test this pretty soon but am curious about that.

I definitely bigger numbers on my rune in draconic vs shiradi
09-01-2012, 08:20 PM
CThruTheEgo

Sorry I haven't responded to the thread in a while. I've been busy leveling up the build and just hit 20 last night.

I used a stone of experience to level and noted previously that the feats may not be ideal for playing out those levels. So I updated the OP with what I would have done without a stone of xp since those are no longer available. Regarding enhancements, now that healer's friend is fixed and cheaper, I will be dropping toughness3 to pick up healer's friend1 and 2. The character planner does not yet reflect the cheaper cost of healer's friend so I just added a note below the build.

I also adjusted the gear a bit. The adamantine cloak of the dragon boosts blade barrier and rune arm spell power by 34 over what the previous gear layout offered, as well as providing spell focus mastery2 and stealth strike. This also frees up the neck slot. Dropping the epic cloak of flames means losing 2 epic slots, however. So I put the GS Min2 HP item in the neck slot and crafted a health6 of GFL belt with large guild slotted HP. The dragon cloak also trumps the spell power benefit of the archaic device, so I chose to use lucid dreams which gives arcane lore. All of this results in a net gain of 4 spell power to tactical detonation/prismatic strike (meh), 34 spell power to blade barrier/rune arm (yes please!), stealth strike, arcane lore, and 10 more HP after dropping toughness3 as noted above. It loses cha6, efficient metamagic maximize2, superior fire lore, insight AC4, fire absorption20%, fire shield hot, and inherent fire resistance10. IMO, the gains only further emphasize the strengths of the build while the losses are negligible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

I'm very interested to hear your feedback on SD. My intention is to have my main be an Arti with 3xPL Sorc (working on the final sorc life atm), and after looking at the various EDs, I came to the conclusion that SD may well offer the best offense and defence for an arti. Specifically, whilst the SC dps increases look great (2d100 force per shot @ 7% likelihood etc) once you adjust for expected damage, you end up around 20-25 damage per shot. SD meanwhile gives 6d6 SA, plus the additional ranged damage for the epic moment. Overall, it seems to me that SD should in theory give a similar dps boost to SC, with each being better/worse than the other on a situational basis.

Where SD shines I think is in the defensive capabilities - shadow form, increased dodge, lithe (particularly good for wf artis imo). As far as I can tell, no other ED tree offers similar defensive benefits for the arti.

I had a similar thought that the sneak attack damage of shadowdancer may be comparable to what shiradi offers, though I haven't gone through the numbers to really compare. And I would definitely agree with the defensive benefits of shadowdancer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

When I did a theoretical allocation of points into the tree, I came to the conclusion that I'd be able to afford at most 2 stat increases (and my preference would be to take just 1). I'd be interested to hear any feedback on consume, as I suspect that whilst it sounds better than the epic moment on paper, in practice its not really all that great (DCs etc. apparently quite low). The epic moment meanwhile, whilst being quite meh for a melee character, offers ranged characters an extra 3d6 aoe damage per shot for 30 secs - this looks like it adds up to a fair amount of damage, say around 150d6 to all mobs hit by the aoe in a best case scenario (not counting the 2d6 per shot to the primary target).

Regarding the stat increases, personally, one of the reasons I chose shadowdancer was to be able to max int. I intended this build to be very caster focused. DC's are not as important for blade barrier (though still very handy) as they are for tactical detonation, and I intended CC through tactical to be a key feature of this build. You do mention, however, that you will have 3 sorc PL's, so you can probably afford to not max int out and still keep your DC's quite high. As a side note related to the casting focus of the build, I think the lack of int enhancements in shiradi is a real weakness of that destiny for an arti, but again, with 3 sorc PL's you are probably in a much better position to use shiradi and not have your DC's suffer. Regarding the epic moment, keep in mind that it deals unholy damage which, according to wiki, only affects good aligned mobs. Given the number of good enemies in the game I have some serious doubts about the value of this epic moment. And yeah, last I heard consume works but is extremely ineffective. Hopefully something will be done about this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valiance

Do you know if the arcane destinies add 5 levels of dmg to rune arms or do they cap out at 20. I'll be able to test this pretty soon but am curious about that.

I haven't tested this myself yet, but I do have magister up to level 4 so I can let you know after I do some testing. Also Valiance, I don't have time atm to review the gear layout you posted. At a glance, it looks pretty good, but I will go over it in greater detail when I have more time.
10-14-2012, 10:59 AM
CThruTheEgo

update on the build

Just wanted to provide an update on the build, I'm loving it.

Epic Destiny: I have shadowdancer maxed out and enough fate points to keep evocation specialist and precise casting twisted in. I need one more fate point and I will twist in brace for impact to be able to use yugo pots with no fort penalty. I am still working my way over to shiradi so can't comment on that one yet, but I am very pleased with shadowdancer. The bonuses to int provide awesome DC's and being able to have evasion when needed is awesome.

Survivability: I tanked VoD elite last night with this build. Our tank said something about lag as soon as we got in and just stood there. A few others tried getting his agro but couldn't hold it once the other dps started on him. He kept coming after me so I just went with it. I pulled him into the corner, blasted the rune arm as fast as it would charge, and spammed quickened reconstructs on myself. I had no problem holding agro and noticed after we completed that shadowdancer threat reduction was active the whole time, so our dps was definitely weak, but I was able to keep myself alive enough to pull us through it. This is definitely an argument in favor of the superiority of quickened reconstructs over scroll healing. I have been in countless other situations where a quickened recon saved me and the party and a scroll would not have cut it at all. For epic elite content there is no way you are making a concentration check through that damage. So if ultimate survivability is your goal, WF and quickened recons are the way to go for this build.

Gear: Almost finished with the gear. The cloak grind is horrible. I realized that trading the smoke goggles and avithoul seal for tharne's goggles and the stalker ring with 7 dex slotted gave me true seeing, ghostly, spot15, and search15 while only giving up improved deception. Tharne's is the reason I have been running VoD lately. The new boots from U16 (if they make it to live) will negate the need to slot 7 dex in the stalker ring and save a lot of token grinding. I have not yet seen what higher level versions of these boots offer so they may change other gearing as well.

Max Force Enhancements: I'm also very happy I went the full 7/6/6 in the force line. Rune arm and blade barrier crits are very common. Force rune arm hits for 200-300 per shot with crits in the 400-600 range. Highest rune arm hit I've seen has been over 1000. Blade barrier hits for about 350 average with crits common for 600-800. Highest blade barrier hit I've seen was over 1300. With the high DC's even evasion mobs hit the blade barrier a majority of the time. I have heard great things about the level 24 version of corruption of nature runearm but do not have one of these yet to test it out.

Crowd Control: The CC is also great up to EH content, very little saves against it. I was in an EH devil assault once where our CC person was not cutting it. So I started throwing tactical detonations as needed and we managed to pull through. A problem I have noticed with the CC for this build is that it is not persistent like dancing balls are. One shot from tactical and if the mobs aren't dead by the time they get up, or if more mobs show up, you have to throw another one. So it works in a pinch but I don't feel like I could join a group to fill a CC role. It also does not work in EE content, you need higher DC's than this build can achieve.

That's it for now. Will update again when there is more to say.
10-14-2012, 11:48 PM
jakeelala

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

Just wanted to provide....

What are your tactical det DCs? I mines 47 in SD and I see it work a lot on EE, but certainly not 100%.

I am looking for a dragon cloak but the grind scares me. You will be jealous to learn that after 11 CiTWs I pulled a Needle :)

That Xbow is SICK.

Shiradi is huge fun but your defense sucks compared to 25% incorp and evasion with. 40+ reflex on sd. I like Shiradi for easy raids and easy content where damage incoming is low. EE I'm always in SD.

I have the lvl 23 rune arm and I'm not real impressed compared to tovens for AOE or targetting/force damage of lucid.
10-15-2012, 04:19 AM
Postumus

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

Max Force Enhancements: I'm also very happy I went the full 7/6/6 in the force line. Rune arm and blade barrier crits are very common. Force rune arm hits for 200-300 per shot with crits in the 400-600 range. Highest rune arm hit I've seen has been over 1000. Blade barrier hits for about 350 average with crits common for 600-800. Highest blade barrier hit I've seen was over 1300. With the high DC's even evasion mobs hit the blade barrier a majority of the time. I have heard great things about the level 24 version of corruption of nature runearm but do not have one of these yet to test it out.

This for sure. Maxing force lines when using a force rune arm like lucid dreams or the FR one can do a sick amount of damage if you can get the shots to hit what you are aiming at. You also see tons of big crits with BB, tactical det, and prismatic ray.

With the arcane lore in the lucid dreams and a 9% force crit line (or from a shard/item) you are looking at crits 15% of the time. And generally big crits.

If I pull a corruption of nature I might try respeccing to acid just to see how it looks, but I'll still probably stick with force in the long run just because it boosts all of my main offensive spells and there are a LOT fewer mobs resistant to force than acid.
10-15-2012, 05:54 AM
wax_on_wax_off

Quote:

Originally Posted by Postumus

This for sure. Maxing force lines when using a force rune arm like lucid dreams or the FR one can do a sick amount of damage if you can get the shots to hit what you are aiming at. You also see tons of big crits with BB, tactical det, and prismatic ray.

With the arcane lore in the lucid dreams and a 9% force crit line (or from a shard/item) you are looking at crits 15% of the time. And generally big crits.

If I pull a corruption of nature I might try respeccing to acid just to see how it looks, but I'll still probably stick with force in the long run just because it boosts all of my main offensive spells and there are a LOT fewer mobs resistant to force than acid.

How significant are those last 10 AP though? You crit, what, 5% more often for 0.5 more damage? I definitely agree that crits are fun and bigger crits are funner but I'm not sure that it's the best allocation of scarce resources. I'd be interested to see how much real DPS it provides in a raid situation (continuous rune arm firing).

Alternatively, you could take those 10 AP and push a second line like lightning (for Toven's Hammer) or acid (for Corruption of Nature) to 7/1/1. This lets you have a choice of targeting 2 saves rather than only using the lower base damage, will based save Lucid Dreams. You can also pick up the torc effect on the upgraded Toven's for SP regen. I'd imagine that 7/1/1 in Toven's/Corruption of Nature ~= 7/6/6 in Lucid as long as saves aren't an issue due to the lower base damage (happy to see maths to support or refute this). Toven's also has the advantage of AoE splash (which is a huge advantage in some quests).

Finally, I'd want Wand and Scroll Mastery at least at rank III, if not IV. Arti's are the best scroll healers in the game and can provide a good portion of their raid DPS while doing so. Seems a no brainer to take up this job even if it isn't the most fun.

Edit: also when comparing rune arms consider that you can get superior acid/lightning lore on boots, bracers or helm while can't think of many sources of superior kinetic lore that won't cost DPS.
10-15-2012, 06:46 AM
jakeelala

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

How significant are those last 10 AP though? You crit, what, 5% more often for 0.5 more damage? I definitely agree that crits are fun and bigger crits are funner but I'm not sure that it's the best allocation of scarce resources. I'd be interested to see how much real DPS it provides in a raid situation (continuous rune arm firing).

Alternatively, you could take those 10 AP and push a second line like lightning (for Toven's Hammer) or acid (for Corruption of Nature) to 7/1/1. This lets you have a choice of targeting 2 saves rather than only using the lower base damage, will based save Lucid Dreams. You can also pick up the torc effect on the upgraded Toven's for SP regen. I'd imagine that 7/1/1 in Toven's/Corruption of Nature ~= 7/6/6 in Lucid as long as saves aren't an issue due to the lower base damage (happy to see maths to support or refute this). Toven's also has the advantage of AoE splash (which is a huge advantage in some quests).

Finally, I'd want Wand and Scroll Mastery at least at rank III, if not IV. Arti's are the best scroll healers in the game and can provide a good portion of their raid DPS while doing so. Seems a no brainer to take up this job even if it isn't the most fun.

Edit: also when comparing rune arms consider that you can get superior acid/lightning lore on boots, bracers or helm while can't think of many sources of superior kinetic lore that won't cost DPS.

You can put superior lore on the rune arms themselves if they're craftable (which Lucid is)
10-15-2012, 08:52 AM
wax_on_wax_off

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeelala

You can put superior lore on the rune arms themselves if they're craftable (which Lucid is)

Can't craft superior lore.
10-15-2012, 12:49 PM
Niexist

This is an awesome build, and pretty much the guideline for my character. The only changes I've made is precision for empower. I'm also thinking I'll drop the ESF: evo in place of epic toughness because when I started my character I did a 18 con, 16 dex, 18 int starting build. I'm having to put my lvl 16, and 20 stats into dex to make the epic archery feat as well.

I really want to have that huge hit point pool from epic toughness so those full powered reconstructs can be hitting at about half life, and putting me to full. I went with precision because I see such a huge amount of my damage coming from my xbow while levelling, maybe when I'm all levelled up I'll change it out for empower, but I love having my xbow as maxed as possible, which is while I'll take the 1 pt hit to my evo DC for the combo of epic archery, and and epic toughness.
10-15-2012, 03:47 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeelala

What are your tactical det DCs? I mines 47 in SD and I see it work a lot on EE, but certainly not 100%.

Yeah I've got 47 DC on tactical detonation with ship buffs. This is just a rough estimate but I'd say it works maybe half the time in EE, which for me isn't nearly enough. If something saves against my spells in EH, I'm surprised. But in EE I usually won't even bother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeelala

I am looking for a dragon cloak but the grind scares me. You will be jealous to learn that after 11 CiTWs I pulled a Needle :)

That Xbow is SICK.

I just finished the cloak last night and am seeing blade barrier hits for more like 400 now with crits hitting for 800-900. I'd really like to work in an impulse item but haven't figured out how to swap the gear around yet. And yes, I am jealous you have a Needle. I actually just started doing CitW last week, but have already heard about the rarity of Needle. Hopefully I will have similar luck.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

How significant are those last 10 AP though? You crit, what, 5% more often for 0.5 more damage? I definitely agree that crits are fun and bigger crits are funner but I'm not sure that it's the best allocation of scarce resources. I'd be interested to see how much real DPS it provides in a raid situation (continuous rune arm firing).

Alternatively, you could take those 10 AP and push a second line like lightning (for Toven's Hammer) or acid (for Corruption of Nature) to 7/1/1. This lets you have a choice of targeting 2 saves rather than only using the lower base damage, will based save Lucid Dreams. You can also pick up the torc effect on the upgraded Toven's for SP regen. I'd imagine that 7/1/1 in Toven's/Corruption of Nature ~= 7/6/6 in Lucid as long as saves aren't an issue due to the lower base damage (happy to see maths to support or refute this). Toven's also has the advantage of AoE splash (which is a huge advantage in some quests).

Postumus had it right, it's all about synergy Wax. The force line affects not only the rune arm but also the three main offensive spells that an arti uses. I can see an argument for electric with Toven's because it also has the SP regen effect and offers another AoE option. But not a single arti spell does acid damage and it is the same type of shot as the force rune arms. Personally I think investing 9 AP for the benefit of only a single rune arm is a poor allocation of resources. I might think differently if/when I actually see that it does significantly more damage, but the fact would still remain that the acid line has very little synergy with the rest of the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

Finally, I'd want Wand and Scroll Mastery at least at rank III, if not IV. Arti's are the best scroll healers in the game and can provide a good portion of their raid DPS while doing so. Seems a no brainer to take up this job even if it isn't the most fun.

I have never been asked to scroll heal a tank even though I have offered many times. A few updates ago, I would probably have agreed that W&SM was worth fully investing in. But building an effective tank is a lot easier now and there are A LOT more tanks available. Overpowered epic destinies and better defensive capabilities for pretty much everyone makes this enhancement line not as valuable as it used to be. Again, investing AP into a line that doesn't get used also seems to me like poor resource allocation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

Edit: also when comparing rune arms consider that you can get superior acid/lightning lore on boots, bracers or helm while can't think of many sources of superior kinetic lore that won't cost DPS.

And kinetic lore does not affect blade barrier, you need to go with arcane lore really, as laceration lore does not affect force damage. Arcane lore is easily found on Lucid Dreams, but I do not like the -5% spell point reduction that is also found on it. I have not been able to fit in arcane lore or greater arcane lore anywhere else. This is also something I have been trying to figure out where to fit into the gear set.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Niexist

This is an awesome build, and pretty much the guideline for my character. The only changes I've made is precision for empower. I'm also thinking I'll drop the ESF: evo in place of epic toughness because when I started my character I did a 18 con, 16 dex, 18 int starting build. I'm having to put my lvl 16, and 20 stats into dex to make the epic archery feat as well.

I really want to have that huge hit point pool from epic toughness so those full powered reconstructs can be hitting at about half life, and putting me to full. I went with precision because I see such a huge amount of my damage coming from my xbow while levelling, maybe when I'm all levelled up I'll change it out for empower, but I love having my xbow as maxed as possible, which is while I'll take the 1 pt hit to my evo DC for the combo of epic archery, and and epic toughness.

Glad you are enjoying the build Niexist. I honestly haven't tried precision. I intended to swap it in and try it out but I've been too happy with the ridiculous blade barrier damage I get from both maximize and empower. But I can see an argument for either, it's a personal preference.

You will actually lose 2 DC's by taking epic toughness, 1 from not taking ESF evo and another from 2 level up points going to dex. But a 45 DC tactical detonation will still be very effective. I find the hit points I have without epic toughness and 14 starting con are actually enough, especially when I have evasion with shadowdancer active. But this is also a personal preference I would say. There are three things this build emphasizes: survivability, casting ability, and ranged dps. You can max out two of those with just a few alterations to the build, but you can't really max out all three. So you just have to decide what your focus is and adjust the build accordingly. I sacrificed a little survivability to max casting and ranged. The changes you describe max out ranged and survivability with a little sacrifice to casting. All variations are still very effective.
10-16-2012, 11:28 AM
sloejack

Since you have eaten a +3 tome, would it make sense to drop starting Dex from 18 to 17 (you should still be good from a feat qualification perspective I think) and raise Con to 16 and kick the last point to Wis for better Will save?
10-16-2012, 12:21 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by sloejack

Since you have eaten a +3 tome, would it make sense to drop starting Dex from 18 to 17 (you should still be good from a feat qualification perspective I think) and raise Con to 16 and kick the last point to Wis for better Will save?

You need 21 dex for combat archery, so 18 starting dex allows all level up points to go into int. You still end up with 562 base hp with a 14 starting con, which I have found to be enough.
10-16-2012, 12:21 PM
Nodoze

How would you adapt/modify for 1st Lifer doing EEs ?

I followed your previous thread and this one with interest.

Before they expired, I used a stone on another server to quickly get a level 16 WF (32point build with a full set of +3 tomes) to join some friends. My friends on this server run EE type content and zerg through quests (expecting everyone to be self-sufficent).

I am curious how would you adapt/modify for 1st Lifer (32point with all +3s) doing EEs & Raids with a group of experienced Zergers? In particular what stats would you adjust down?

I see from your Evo DCs that I would lose 1 DC for no Sorc past life. Without past lives will my DCs suffer too much to not be viable in EE?

In the end I like the idea of having Evasion via Shadowdancer without splashing.

Any thoughts/advice on gear differences and smart roles to play with a 1st lifer version of this build in a zerg group would be appreciated.
10-16-2012, 02:16 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodoze

I followed your previous thread and this one with interest.

Before they expired, I used a stone on another server to quickly get a level 16 WF (32point build with a full set of +3 tomes) to join some friends. My friends on this server run EE type content and zerg through quests (expecting everyone to be self-sufficent).

I am curious how would you adapt/modify for 1st Lifer (32point with all +3s) doing EEs & Raids with a group of experienced Zergers? In particular what stats would you adjust down?

I see from your Evo DCs that I would lose 1 DC for no Sorc past life. Without past lives will my DCs suffer too much to not be viable in EE?

In the end I like the idea of having Evasion via Shadowdancer without splashing.

Any thoughts/advice on gear differences and smart roles to play with a 1st lifer version of this build in a zerg group would be appreciated.

First off, I wouldn't change the gear as none of it is exceptionally difficult to obtain. Anything from the new content is easy enough to farm. The cloak is simply an annoying grind but not difficult. The two greensteel items are also a grind, but not if you either 1) already have ingredients on that server from alts or 2) your friends are willing to give you ingredients. If neither of those is the case, just do elite shrouds every three days and you should have what you need soon enough. You are going to want to do 20 shrouds anyway for the cleansing stone. If you don't have a crafter on that server, it should be easy enough to find one who can make you the belt. Tharne's is a luck based grind, not difficult. The cannith challenge items are easily obtainable.

I'm actually still undecided about the Tharne's/stalker ring combo vs the smoke goggles/avithoul seal combo. I do like the improved deception on the avithoul seal. The only things gained from the tharne's/stalker combo are true seeing (which can be scrolled as needed), ghostly (which I will probably be getting from the new U16 boots if they make it to live, and then just use propulsion boots as a swap), search15 (which can be swapped as needed), and spot15 (which I'd like to have on permanently, but I know where most traps are and will learn new ones quickly enough). So spot is the only thing that is really gained from the tharne's/stalker combo, and I'm not sure that's worth giving up improved deception for. I figure if I go with the smoke/avithoul combo I'll swap in spot goggles as needed and just lose out on the manslayer/seeker6 from the smoke goggles when I do.

Now onto 32 pt build considerations. You are right, you are only losing 1 DC from sorc past life, not a big deal. I don't find the CC aspects of this build to be sufficient in EE content anyway, personally. It works, but not as much as I'd like it to. If you lower the build's current DC's by 1-2, then I wouldn't even consider CCing in EE. Your blade barrier will still do significant damage even if mobs save against it so DC doesn't matter as much here. Keep in mind, however, that int also affects ranged dps when using insightful damage, so it's not just for spell DC's; and evocation DC determines rune arm DC as well. As I mentioned in my response to Niexist, this build emphasizes three things: casting ability, ranged dps, and survivability. With 36 pts you can max out two of those and only one has to suffer a little. But with 32 pts you can either max one and two have to suffer a little, or max two and one suffers a lot. Let's consider some possible starting stats:

str8
dex18
con10
int18
wis6
cha6
This allows all level ups to go into int so you only end up with 1 less DC (from no sorc PL) than the build in the OP. You can also take combat archery so your ranged dps is maxed out as well. But, you only end up with 512 hp, so you are really sacrificing survivability and I don't think I'd want to go into EE content with just over 500 hp.

str8
dex16
con16
int18
wis6
cha6
With these starting stats you will actually end up with 25 more HP than the build in the OP, so you will have slightly better survivability. You have two choices. 1) You can put all level ups into int and still only be out that one DC from sorc PL, but you lose combat archery also. 2) You could put two level up points into dex and take combat archery but lose a total of 2 DC's (one from sorc PL and one from two level up points). With the first option your ranged suffers, and with the second your casting ability suffers. But since I'm not entirely content with the casting ability in EE content as it is, and this is what you will be primarily running, I would probably go with the second option for your build. Your casting ability with the second option will still be sufficient for EH content if you ever run that. But you actually have a third option with this setup also. 3) Put two level ups into both dex and con to qualify for combat archery and epic toughness. You end up with a total of 4 less DC's than the OP (1 sorc PL, 2 level ups, 1 ESF evo), so you are really sacrificing casting ability to max out ranged and survivability. You would have a final base HP of 662. Personally I wouldn't want to sacrifice casting ability to this degree. The second option is a nice balance IMO, as casting ability is not completely useless, survivability is sufficient, and ranged dps is solid. I would say those are your options. You've just got to decide what will fit your goals and balance accordingly. Hope that helps.
10-17-2012, 03:13 PM
jakeelala

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

Yeah I've got 47 DC on tactical detonation with ship buffs. This is just a rough estimate but I'd say it works maybe half the time in EE, which for me isn't nearly enough. If something saves against my spells in EH, I'm surprised. But in EE I usually won't even bother.

I just finished the cloak last night and am seeing blade barrier hits for more like 400 now with crits hitting for 800-900. I'd really like to work in an impulse item but haven't figured out how to swap the gear around yet. And yes, I am jealous you have a Needle. I actually just started doing CitW last week, but have already heard about the rarity of Needle. Hopefully I will have similar luck.

PS: If I'm doing a lot of BB'ing (no other BB'er in the party or they aren't casting, solo'ing, etc) I put on my Impulse 102 hat of alertness. Big bubba BB's are fun.

Also, A LOT of people forget that the bracelet of madness from hound has Arcane Lore on it (and greater Evo Focus). It's basically a mini version of the dragon cloak if you have one laying around. This is mostly relevant to the discussion of not using Lucid Dreams, like in favor of Toven's for lots of AoE goodness
10-17-2012, 04:46 PM
wax_on_wax_off

Kinetic Lore does affect BB I'm almost certain, this was changed recently.

So, why no Toven spec? It's still the strongest rune arm in the game when you consider it does AoE shots and can be loaded with +2 ins int and sp regen. I mentioned corruption of nature as it seems all the rage at the moment.

I'd still look for at least 3 ranks in W&SM. If you're not using it enough that's your fault, not anyone else's, and fix that by looking for more opportunities such as running EE raids where scroll healing is more useful. Besides that there's no reason not to run any EH quest without a healer and just throw a scroll occasionally and have moderately self sufficient party members, I do this on my archer without qualms (even healed EH DA without scrolls by going healing specced with ED and twists).
10-17-2012, 07:30 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeelala

PS: If I'm doing a lot of BB'ing (no other BB'er in the party or they aren't casting, solo'ing, etc) I put on my Impulse 102 hat of alertness. Big bubba BB's are fun.

That's a good idea to swap to impulse as needed. I have both a ring and hat with impulse 102. Hat is a good swap slot for this because once you use up the sp, ConOp isn't a huge bonus. Although I do hate the UMD lag that always happens when I remove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jakeelala

Also, A LOT of people forget that the bracelet of madness from hound has Arcane Lore on it (and greater Evo Focus). It's basically a mini version of the dragon cloak if you have one laying around. This is mostly relevant to the discussion of not using Lucid Dreams, like in favor of Toven's for lots of AoE goodness

I was actually using the bracelet of madness before I got the dragon cloak. I've gotten around the -5% sp from Lucid Dreams by just swapping it out when I rest or before a quest. There is also the Mindfury Symbiont that drops from In the Flesh that gives greater arcane lore, this might be good to use with an upgraded Toven's as you would only lose one int point but gain greater lore.
10-17-2012, 08:42 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

Kinetic Lore does affect BB I'm almost certain, this was changed recently.

Got a link? This is the first I have heard of this change. I don't see anything about it on the wiki, but that isn't always 100% up to date.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

So, why no Toven spec? It's still the strongest rune arm in the game when you consider it does AoE shots and can be loaded with +2 ins int and sp regen. I mentioned corruption of nature as it seems all the rage at the moment.

No Toven's spec because no Toven's. I have seen this raid run maybe twice in the last few months so I'm not expecting to acquire one anytime soon. I've already said that I could see an argument for investing in the electric line for Toven's. The SP regen and an AoE shot would be nice, but the +2 insightful int is redundant and max DC's was a main goal of mine with this build. As I've mentioned before, if I get a Toven's I will probably respec to 7/1/1 in both force and electric. But until then, those points are better spent maxing out the force line.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

I'd still look for at least 3 ranks in W&SM. If you're not using it enough that's your fault, not anyone else's, and fix that by looking for more opportunities such as running EE raids where scroll healing is more useful. Besides that there's no reason not to run any EH quest without a healer and just throw a scroll occasionally and have moderately self sufficient party members, I do this on my archer without qualms (even healed EH DA without scrolls by going healing specced with ED and twists).

I think you misunderstand. It's not that I don't get use out of the enhancement line. It's that tier2 is enough. I never said that I don't ever throw scrolls. I have jumped into the healer role many times in both EH and EE when 1) the healer was down and needed a minute to get it together, 2) there was no healer and the group needed help to pull through a situation, or 3) the healer was simply doing a poor job of healing and the group needed more help. I have found myself in situations like this in both raids and regular questing. I enjoy adapting to the situation as needed, that's my playstyle, which is why I play a class as versatile as the artificer. In any situation where I have had to take the scroll healer role, W&SM2 did the job just fine. If it works well enough at tier2, why would I invest in it further?

I don't think we are going to agree on this, and that's OK because we are allowed to do what works for each of us. That is the beauty of this game, you can build your character to suit your personal goals and playstyle. If maxing out W&SM suits you, more power to ya. For me, higher than tier2 simply isn't necessary and max force line is a better investment.

An interesting coincidence actually, two nights ago I was asked to be the tank healer (first time ever!) in an EH LoB. A 1200 HP WF paladin was pretty easy to keep up. I only used a quickened recon once when he got out of range and was getting pretty low. I was throwing recon scrolls the rest of the time, which healed him for a little less than half his hp. And tier2 was sufficient enough to get me a compliment from him when we completed.
10-18-2012, 09:28 AM
Nodoze

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

... I would say those are your options. You've just got to decide what will fit your goals and balance accordingly. Hope that helps.

Wow. Very solid analysis and really appreciate you taking the time to give pros/cons & insights based upon actual playing of the build. I think I intuitively was already moving toward your balanced recommendation "2) put two level up points into dex and take combat archery but lose a total of 2 DC's (one from sorc PL and one from two level up points). With the first option your ranged suffers, and with the second your casting ability suffers. But since I'm not entirely content with the casting ability in EE content as it is, and this is what you will be primarily running, I would probably go with the second option for your build. Your casting ability with the second option will still be sufficient for EH content if you ever run that."

Since I made this guy 16 really quickly right before the stones disappeared I am not 100% sure where my level ups went to but my base stats (with level ups at level 16) currently are:
str8
dex17(16+1?)
con16
int21(18+3?)
wis6
cha6
==
I will plan on doing my remaining level up on Dex to get Combat Archery and try this route. Talking to the guys they also run EH&EN when short folks or group is missing key folk for EE so this seems to be a good balance. Either way no big deal as I believe I still have a free lesser reincarnate on this toon &/or can drop a heart on him. Thanks again (gave +1 rep) !
10-18-2012, 10:17 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodoze

Wow. Very solid analysis and really appreciate you taking the time to give pros/cons & insights based upon actual playing of the build.

Glad to help out. I should mention (in case you are not already aware) last I heard combat archery is currently broken. It only applies the 2 dodge. Given that LR's are also broken, however, I didn't want to risk losing ED xp so I just stuck with it. And besides, Turbine fixes stuff eventually, hehe.

Thanks for the rep and enjoy the build.

EDIT: Here is a link to the testing on combat archery if you are interested. I also did not see anything about this getting fixed in any recent release notes.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=391816
10-21-2012, 02:54 AM
Korban_Dallas

I read through most of the thread but I did see which Planar Focus you went with? there are two with Int. 3

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Planar_Focus_of_Subterfuge

or

http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Planar_Focus_of_Erudition

also, Thanks for this thread.
10-21-2012, 07:25 AM
Splotto

Hello:

Thanks for the build and the discussion. Thanks for all the replies.

I am getting ready to plow through my arti life now and I like this build alot. I like WF for the self-healing but I also like human/h-elf for some of my gear (frozen tunic, etc). I will probably go WF though.

I won't be staying at endgame with this build, just leveling. Are there any changes/tweaks anyone recommends for this build if getting to 20 is your only goal?

Thanks.
10-21-2012, 07:54 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Korban_Dallas

I read through most of the thread but I did see which Planar Focus you went with? there are two with Int. 3

I actually have both, but I do not yet have Needle. I figured I would keep erudition on before questing and shrining for the extra sp and then swap back to it when I expect to use a lot of blade barriers, but run around with subterfuge the rest of the time for the extra sneak attack damage and dodge. Also, Eardweller adds 25 psionic spell power for a total of three minutes, so if you plan on using that then erudition only offers a little extra sp. As with so many other aspects of this build it just depends on whether you want to emphasize casting or ranged ability.

Glad you are enjoying the thread. And awesome name btw, great movie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splotto

I am getting ready to plow through my arti life now and I like this build alot. I like WF for the self-healing but I also like human/h-elf for some of my gear (frozen tunic, etc). I will probably go WF though.

I won't be staying at endgame with this build, just leveling. Are there any changes/tweaks anyone recommends for this build if getting to 20 is your only goal?

This is definitely an arti built for endgame. I think I would make a lot of changes if I was going to TR immediately at 20. The playstyle of an artificer really changes throughout the leveling process. Ranged dps is primary through most of the heroic leveling process. Casting ability really starts to be effective when you get blade barrier, which is level 15 at the earliest. So with this in mind, I would probably go helf over WF. The extreme survivability that WF offers isn't really needed until late game. Cure/repair serious pots will be sufficient until you can effectively switch to scrolls, around levels 12-15, which will then get you through to 20. For most heroic content a quickened reconstruct (which is the biggest advantage that WF offers) simply isn't necessary. Helf, on the other hand, will provide better ranged dps from rogue dil. Since ranged is the primary focus, I would keep all of the ranged feats.

The casting ability of an artificer, which this build emphasizes, does not reach its most powerful until very late in leveling. If you are going straight from 18-20 and then TRing immediately, you will only have 2 level 6 spell slots. Blade barrier, tactical detonation, and deadly weapons are pretty much must haves for any arti with enough spell slots to have them all. Reconstruct is only useful for WF and again, isn't really even needed for heroic levels. So the first level 6 spell I would get at 15 would probably be blade barrier. The second spell obtained at level 16 would probably be switched between tactical detonation and deadly weapons as needed. I would probably keep maximize and empower for blade barrier. The spell focus feats are not as important during heroic levels but will still be of benefit, mostly from having mobs save less often against your damage spells. You get prismatic strike at the earliest at level 12 which offers a single target CC option and would also benefit from the spell focus feats.

Since TRing at 20 you don't need to build for epic feats, so you could adjust the starting stats as well. Insightful reflexes is also not really needed as your big boost to int happens from epic gear and epic destiny. And the dog is more useful at lower levels, in my opinion, so I would fit in augment summoning as well. I'll list below the starting stats and feat order I would take if building an arti just for a TR, assuming a 36 point build (adjust con down if a 34 or 32 pt build). Put all level up points into int, unless you do not have a +3 dex tome, then put one level up point into dex at level 12.

Half-elf
str8
dex16
con16
int18
wis8
cha8

Feats:
1 augment summoning
3 point blank shot
4a rapid shot
6 toughness
8a precise shot
9 maximize
12 spell focus evo
12a imp crit ranged
15 improved precise shot
16a empower
18 gr spell focus evo

I prefer to take the ranged feats as early as possible, though some would advocate maximize/empower sooner to use with blast rod. It just depends on your playstyle and what you want the character to do. I haven't used precision so I can't speak from experience with it, although I will say I have my doubts about its usefulness for heroic level content.

Anyway, I hope that helps. Glad you are enjoying the discussion.
10-21-2012, 08:34 PM
wax_on_wax_off

For leveling purposes I'd take quicken by 6 to lay down flame turret with greater ease.
10-21-2012, 09:13 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

For leveling purposes I'd take quicken by 6 to lay down flame turret with greater ease.

Yeah some would go for this option also, but I never found flame turret to be a problem without quicken, and I wouldn't bother with quicken on a non-WF personally. But if not building for endgame then you've got a lot of flexibility with feats so its not a big deal to fit it in.
10-21-2012, 09:17 PM
wax_on_wax_off

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

Yeah some would go for this option also, but I never found flame turret to be a problem without quicken, and I wouldn't bother with quicken on a non-WF personally. But if not building for endgame then you've got a lot of flexibility with feats so its not a big deal to fit it in.

If you don't take it you need to slot a concentration item - this is what I usually do but if it's just for a PL then quicken - at least until you get Blade Barrier (could swap it out for precise shot before leveling to 15 and taking IPS maybe) - is a definite win I think.
10-22-2012, 07:04 AM
Splotto

Thanks for the replies. I am looking forward to this life.

Thanks.
10-24-2012, 03:06 AM
QuantumFX

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

Got a link? This is the first I have heard of this change. I don't see anything about it on the wiki, but that isn't always 100% up to date.

For some reason the forum won’t let me quote THIS.
10-24-2012, 04:10 AM
wax_on_wax_off

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuantumFX

For some reason the forum won’t let me quote THIS.

Denied! (I am)
10-24-2012, 11:35 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuantumFX

For some reason the forum won’t let me quote THIS.

Thanks for the link, but I'm not quite sure what to make of it. For one, it's from the beta forums and I checked release notes since the expansion and didn't see any mention of this. Did this change not make it to live, or did I just miss it in the release notes, or was it just not in the release notes? Also, there is no mention of lore effects, which was the original concern. If laceration was changed to affect the same damage types as impulse then laceration lore would affect blade barrier. But there is no mention of kinetic lore and whether it was changed to affect blade barrier. I think I'll start a separate thread to see if anyone can confirm or deny this. Thanks for trying to get to the bottom of this QuantumFX, +1.
10-24-2012, 03:06 PM
Nodoze

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

Thanks for the link, but I'm not quite sure what to make of it. For one, it's from the beta forums and I checked release notes since the expansion and didn't see any mention of this. Did this change not make it to live, or did I just miss it in the release notes, or was it just not in the release notes? Also, there is no mention of lore effects, which was the original concern. If laceration was changed to affect the same damage types as impulse then laceration lore would affect blade barrier. But there is no mention of kinetic lore and whether it was changed to affect blade barrier. I think I'll start a separate thread to see if anyone can confirm or deny this. Thanks for trying to get to the bottom of this QuantumFX, +1.

I am pretty sure some of this has gone live... Specifically at least the first part "Impulse affects all force, physical, and untyped damage, including Blade Barrier. ..." as csivils confirmed here when using 'Blade Barrier' and 'Toss Boulder' while equipping the Holy Symbol of Lolth.

When I read the second part "...Laceration effects were turned into Impulse. ", I assumed that meant they renamed the items from Laceration to Impulse but don't know on that part and am now curious what we find.
10-24-2012, 04:11 PM
QuantumFX

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodoze

When I read the second part "...Laceration effects were turned into Impulse. ", I assumed that meant they renamed the items from Laceration to Impulse but don't know on that part and am now curious what we find.

I’m hoping that someone posts an updated screenshot of an Adamantine caster shield from LoB. I have no idea if the lore got renamed or not since I considered running the pre-U14 LoB to be akin to purposefully punching yourself in the testicles.
10-24-2012, 06:45 PM
CThruTheEgo

DarkForte confirmed that kinetic lore does not affect blade barrier in this post. So for blade barrier, impulse and laceration affect base damage, arcane lore and laceration lore affect crits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodoze

When I read the second part "...Laceration effects were turned into Impulse. ", I assumed that meant they renamed the items from Laceration to Impulse but don't know on that part and am now curious what we find.

I interpreted the second part to mean that laceration was simply recoded to affect the same damage types as impulse. If that is the case then alchemical adamantine tier2 would provide laceration lore. But if it was renamed, then alchemical adamantine has the same effect as crystal, which is impulse/kinetic lore. Unless the only thing they did was change the name and it provides impulse lore, which would just be too confusing.

Either way, I think I'm done hunting down an answer to all of this. I now know that kinetic lore does, in fact, not affect blade barrier. The burden of proof lies with the next person to claim otherwise.
10-29-2012, 11:38 PM
CThruTheEgo

Toven's Hammer is disappointing

So I got a Toven's Hammer a couple weeks ago, thanks to a generous pug group, and swapped enhancements to 7/2/1 force and 7/1/1 electric to try it out. Unfortunately, I'm not at all impressed. Trash does not seem to die any faster now that I have it. In fact, I feel less effective because of weakened blade barriers and Lucid Dreams. I see way too many saves with Toven's, a lot more than I see for tactical detonations and blade barriers. The difference makes me wonder what is not being added to rune arm save DC's. Wiki reports that evocation items are not added to the rune arm, but it does not mention epic destiny enhancements. The high rate of saves makes me think they are not added, but I will probably not be able to test this anytime soon to know for sure.

It does not work well with blade barrier kiting since you can only get a max charge of tier 3 while moving, which means less damage per shot and lower DC's (which means more saves and less damage). This is unfortunate as it would be great to have two AoE effects at once. Wax has mentioned the tactic of kiting trash, running into a corner, dropping a flame turret, and blasting away with lightning motes and Toven's. I didn't find this very effective as the turret is destroyed in seconds by endgame mobs and they save too often against Toven's. I find it a lot simpler and more effective to just kite them through a max force enhancement blade barrier a few times.

It is useful when fighting in narrow corridors where several shots from a force rune arm would normally just hit the walls. That is about the only place I have found it to be more effective than other available options. So I will be swapping enhancements again to 7/6/6 force and 1/0/0 electric for the occasional times that I swap to Toven's when in narrow spaces or need the sp proc (which I have yet to obtain). I never have a problem with my UMD score, even with multiple deaths, so I will drop improved UMD IV to get the 1 point for the electric line. If I get around to testing whether or not epic destiny enhancements are added to rune arm DC's I will post the results here, but real life issues will probably prevent me from doing so for quite some time.

EDIT: I still don't have a Corruption of Nature, but will post an update if/when i get one.
10-30-2012, 12:14 AM
Deathdefy

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

So I got a Toven's Hammer a couple weeks ago, thanks to a generous pug group, and swapped enhancements to 7/2/1 force and 7/1/1 electric to try it out. Unfortunately, I'm not at all impressed. Trash does not seem to die any faster now that I have it. In fact, I feel less effective because of weakened blade barriers and Lucid Dreams. I see way too many saves with Toven's, a lot more than I see for tactical detonations and blade barriers. The difference makes me wonder what is not being added to rune arm save DC's. Wiki reports that evocation items are not added to the rune arm, but it does not mention epic destiny enhancements. The high rate of saves makes me think they are not added, but I will probably not be able to test this anytime soon to know for sure.

It does not work well with blade barrier kiting since you can only get a max charge of tier 3 while moving, which means less damage per shot and lower DC's (which means more saves and less damage). This is unfortunate as it would be great to have two AoE effects at once. Wax has mentioned the tactic of kiting trash, running into a corner, dropping a flame turret, and blasting away with lightning motes and Toven's. I didn't find this very effective as the turret is destroyed in seconds by endgame mobs and they save too often against Toven's. I find it a lot simpler and more effective to just kite them through a max force enhancement blade barrier a few times.

It is useful when fighting in narrow corridors where several shots from a force rune arm would normally just hit the walls. That is about the only place I have found it to be more effective than other available options. So I will be swapping enhancements again to 7/6/6 force and 1/0/0 electric for the occasional times that I swap to Toven's when in narrow spaces or need the sp proc (which I have yet to obtain). I never have a problem with my UMD score, even with multiple deaths, so I will drop improved UMD IV to get the 1 point for the electric line. If I get around to testing whether or not epic destiny enhancements are added to rune arm DC's I will post the results here, but real life issues will probably prevent me from doing so for quite some time.

EDIT: I still don't have a Corruption of Nature, but will post an update if/when i get one.

Always good to read other people's experiences. I do agree that since Insightful Int + 3 items coming into existence, and Torcs being impractical on EE it's a less exciting weapon.

My favourite use of Toven's is as a follow up to a Tactical Detonation and Lightning Motes. If you're in a position (like soloing) to kite things through BBs, that's probably going to be superior every time though.

My understanding was that the DC of rune arms doesn't take into account Evocation items, just feats and int - haven't personally tested though. I also have no idea on EDs.
10-30-2012, 12:41 AM
wax_on_wax_off

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

So I got a Toven's Hammer a couple weeks ago, thanks to a generous pug group, and swapped enhancements to 7/2/1 force and 7/1/1 electric to try it out. Unfortunately, I'm not at all impressed. Trash does not seem to die any faster now that I have it. In fact, I feel less effective because of weakened blade barriers and Lucid Dreams. I see way too many saves with Toven's, a lot more than I see for tactical detonations and blade barriers. The difference makes me wonder what is not being added to rune arm save DC's. Wiki reports that evocation items are not added to the rune arm, but it does not mention epic destiny enhancements. The high rate of saves makes me think they are not added, but I will probably not be able to test this anytime soon to know for sure.

It does not work well with blade barrier kiting since you can only get a max charge of tier 3 while moving, which means less damage per shot and lower DC's (which means more saves and less damage). This is unfortunate as it would be great to have two AoE effects at once. Wax has mentioned the tactic of kiting trash, running into a corner, dropping a flame turret, and blasting away with lightning motes and Toven's. I didn't find this very effective as the turret is destroyed in seconds by endgame mobs and they save too often against Toven's. I find it a lot simpler and more effective to just kite them through a max force enhancement blade barrier a few times.

It is useful when fighting in narrow corridors where several shots from a force rune arm would normally just hit the walls. That is about the only place I have found it to be more effective than other available options. So I will be swapping enhancements again to 7/6/6 force and 1/0/0 electric for the occasional times that I swap to Toven's when in narrow spaces or need the sp proc (which I have yet to obtain). I never have a problem with my UMD score, even with multiple deaths, so I will drop improved UMD IV to get the 1 point for the electric line. If I get around to testing whether or not epic destiny enhancements are added to rune arm DC's I will post the results here, but real life issues will probably prevent me from doing so for quite some time.

EDIT: I still don't have a Corruption of Nature, but will post an update if/when i get one.

My mentioning of the use of Flame Turret should have tipped you off that this is a strategy to be used at a point in the game where said spell is still useful, namely before you get Blade Barrier. I hope I didn't specifically mention Toven's Hammer as part of this strategy because it would have been an error if I had.

The strategy was with Chimera's Breath or Arcing Sky depending on the level and remained very effective up until the point that Blade Barrier became available and allowed me to farm quests like Purge the Fallen Shrine almost as quickly as I have on any other characters even though Flame Turret was ineffective.

The strategy would also suit any build that either delayed Blade Barrier (due to a splash) or didn't get it at all (due to a past life grab or whatever else). Flame Turret is certainly not a necessity, the only real requirement is to survive which is very doable in anything but EE content with a combination of stoneskin, displacement, ghostly and other defenses.

I'm curious too if EDs affect rune arm DC. I'd imagine that they would but can't be sure.
11-13-2012, 12:41 PM
StrixAluco

Following this build with a couple of lives ahead of me I'm about to start crafting my GS, and with U16 out I just wanted to confirm that head and neck is still the way to go? And is there any specific reason to what goes where?
11-14-2012, 09:58 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrixAluco

Following this build with a couple of lives ahead of me I'm about to start crafting my GS, and with U16 out I just wanted to confirm that head and neck is still the way to go? And is there any specific reason to what goes where?

I would still keep GS in the head and neck slots. I use a Mask of Comedy for the good hope clicky so I'd probably prefer to keep the SP/ConOp in the head slot in case I forgot to swap it out after buffing. I don't think there is anything that I swap to in the neck slot. But it doesn't really matter much I suppose.

The only gear change that U16 has made for this build is using the Treads of Falling Shadow boots over the Cannith propulsion boots.

EDIT: Another reason to put ConOp in the helm slot is if you ever want to swap in an impulse item, which is available on helm and ring slots only AFAIK.
11-15-2012, 02:18 AM
StrixAluco

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

I would still keep GS in the head and neck slots. I use a Mask of Comedy for the good hope clicky so I'd probably prefer to keep the SP/ConOp in the head slot in case I forgot to swap it out after buffing. I don't think there is anything that I swap to in the neck slot. But it doesn't really matter much I suppose.

The only gear change that U16 has made for this build is using the Treads of Falling Shadow boots over the Cannith propulsion boots.

EDIT: Another reason to put ConOp in the helm slot is if you ever want to swap in an impulse item, which is available on helm and ring slots only AFAIK.

Thank you, that is truly helpful. I guess I better get started crafting then :)
I can think of swapping in a torc as needed, and during that there will be an issue slotting heavy fortification somewhere else, but apart from that the neck looks like a good slot. Right now I got invisibility and GH clickies in the neck slot, but I guess they can go somewhere else (though GH in belt slot doesn't help that much I guess). Having a possibility of slotting an impulse item as wanted also look attractive.
As for the boots the new ones looks really tasty though I guess the Cannith Propulsion ones will still be hot-swap for when ff is needed.
11-15-2012, 04:06 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrixAluco

Thank you, that is truly helpful. I guess I better get started crafting then :)
I can think of swapping in a torc as needed, and during that there will be an issue slotting heavy fortification somewhere else, but apart from that the neck looks like a good slot. Right now I got invisibility and GH clickies in the neck slot, but I guess they can go somewhere else (though GH in belt slot doesn't help that much I guess). Having a possibility of slotting an impulse item as wanted also look attractive.
As for the boots the new ones looks really tasty though I guess the Cannith Propulsion ones will still be hot-swap for when ff is needed.

Now that you mention it, I do remember reconsidering the GS HP item in the neck slot because of the torc, but the torc proc can also be found on an upgraded Toven's Hammer, so you don't have to be limited to the neck slot for that. And I still don't have a torc yet anyway (or the upgrade to Toven's for that matter). I do play this build with a very heavy casting focus, so some extra sp would be nice on occasion, not often, but sometimes.

If you are going with the torc and need to swap in heavy fort somewhere, I would suggest the ring slot. If you are torcing you aren't going to be getting sneak attack anyway and the new boots will make the dex from the avithoul seal redundant, so you aren't really losing anything.

I've got some lootgen bracers with 3 clicks of invis and I just use scrolls for GH which last 15 (16?) mins for an arti. I try to use either bracers or goggles for any swaps (clicky buffs, trap gear, etc.) since those items are not a huge loss if I don't swap them back. And yeah, I intend to keep the Propulsion boots as a swap for both feather fall and the propulsion clicky.
11-15-2012, 07:55 AM
StrixAluco

Thanks

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

Now that you mention it, I do remember reconsidering the GS HP item in the neck slot because of the torc, but the torc proc can also be found on an upgraded Toven's Hammer, so you don't have to be limited to the neck slot for that. And I still don't have a torc yet anyway (or the upgrade to Toven's for that matter). I do play this build with a very heavy casting focus, so some extra sp would be nice on occasion, not often, but sometimes.

If you are going with the torc and need to swap in heavy fort somewhere, I would suggest the ring slot. If you are torcing you aren't going to be getting sneak attack anyway and the new boots will make the dex from the avithoul seal redundant, so you aren't really losing anything.

I've got some lootgen bracers with 3 clicks of invis and I just use scrolls for GH which last 15 (16?) mins for an arti. I try to use either bracers or goggles for any swaps (clicky buffs, trap gear, etc.) since those items are not a huge loss if I don't swap them back. And yeah, I intend to keep the Propulsion boots as a swap for both feather fall and the propulsion clicky.

That sounds like a prefect way to go, and it may take a while to get there as I haven't got the torc of Toven's Hammer yet. Reassured it is a nice way to go I'd better start grinding for the stuff.

I noticed that you changed the equipment in the OP, and also noticed that the breakdown of the DC is not perfectly correct anymore as it includes "2 greater evocation item (epic shaman's beads)" though the result stays the same with the Spell Focus Mastery +2 of Adamantine Cloak of the Dragon.
11-15-2012, 12:44 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrixAluco

That sounds like a prefect way to go, and it may take a while to get there as I haven't got the torc of Toven's Hammer yet. Reassured it is a nice way to go I'd better start grinding for the stuff.

It is worth noting also that torc and Toven's sp procs should stack, although I'm not sure if this has been verified. The lightning strike from Toven's does stack with a Lit2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrixAluco

I noticed that you changed the equipment in the OP, and also noticed that the breakdown of the DC is not perfectly correct anymore as it includes "2 greater evocation item (epic shaman's beads)" though the result stays the same with the Spell Focus Mastery +2 of Adamantine Cloak of the Dragon.

Good catch, thanks for pointing this out. The shaman's beads were a part of the gear set, but the dragon cloak offers a lot more.
12-27-2012, 12:42 AM
Therigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

1826 Base SP
Somehow I end up with 1846 totally unbuffed sp though. I'm not sure where the extra 20 is coming from.

Doesn't Sorcerer past life give you 20 spell points that you've not accounted for?
12-27-2012, 01:20 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Therigar

Doesn't Sorcerer past life give you 20 spell points that you've not accounted for?

Great catch Therigar. That little mystery has been bugging me for a long time now. Thank you. Edited the OP.
12-31-2012, 03:45 AM
Singular

Quote:

Originally Posted by StrixAluco

Following this build with a couple of lives ahead of me I'm about to start crafting my GS, and with U16 out I just wanted to confirm that head and neck is still the way to go? And is there any specific reason to what goes where?

I've been wondering the same thing myself! It's a tough decision on an arty.

I decided to put my GS displacement clicky and +45hp item as a necklace and will be putting a GS Con/op on my belt since right now belt doesn't seem to be useful for anything.

Right now, I'm wearing the Purple Dragon set (I swapped out Insightful Reflexes for Heavy Armor), so that takes care of helm, gloves and armor, I have the Tinkerer's spectacles on (but may change it to the Magewright set, since I use that cape when my Mantlle is out of charges), Howler's bracers, Boots of the Woodsman, epic buccaneers's ring and ring of the stalker.

I choose the Purple dragon set for several reasons: it increases my hp by 40 (con+superior false life), my str so I can carry more and reach full speed and increases to hit and damage by +3.
12-31-2012, 11:01 AM
Nodoze

32point w +4 tomes variant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

... Now onto 32 pt build considerations [with +3 Tomes]. ...

str8
dex16
con16
int18
wis6
cha6

With these starting stats you will actually end up with 25 more HP than the build in the OP, so you will have slightly better survivability. ... You could put two level up points into dex and take combat archery but lose a total of 2 DC's (one from sorc PL and one from two level up points). ... your casting ability suffers. But since I'm not entirely content with the casting ability in EE content as it is, and this is what you will be primarily running, I would probably go with the second option for your build. Your casting ability with the second option will still be sufficient for EH content if you ever run that. ...

I hit level 20 & I ended up upgrading to a full set of +4 tomes & now I am looking to reincarnate before I start on my EDs. For a 32 pointer with all +4 Tomes (instead of +3's), with the recommended gear, would the following stats be optimal?:

str9+4t+7e=20
dex16+1u+4t+8e+3i=32
con17+4t+6e+2i+1n=30
int17+5u+4t+8e+3i+1x+3n+5d=46
wis6+4t+6e=16
cha6+4t=10

note: u=level Ups; t=Tome; e=Enhancement; i=Insightful; x=eXceptional; h=eNhancements; d=Destiny;

My thought was that this stat distribution should hopefully allow access to either (the still broken) Combat Archery or Epic Toughness with still only the loss of 2 DCs (sorc PL + one less int level up & 1 less int from the Destiny). Until they fix Combat Archery, my thought would be to take Epic Toughness and feat swap later (instead of reincarnating with ED risk) if/when they fix Combat Archery.

The net gains of the above (in addition to unlocking both CA & ET) is even overall stats & +1 str (while making str even) & it frees up 2 ED points to take something within Shadow Dancer. That being said, gear changes and I am not sure making my starting stats uneven like that is a good trade off for those gains...
12-31-2012, 11:35 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodoze

I hit level 20 & I ended up upgrading to a full set of +4 tomes & now I am looking to reincarnate before I start on my EDs. For a 32 pointer with all +4 Tomes (instead of +3's), with the recommended gear, would the following stats be optimal?:

str9+4t+7e=20
dex16+1u+4t+8e+3i=32
con17+4t+6e+2i+1n=30
int17+5u+4t+8e+3i+1x+3n+5d=46
wis6+4t+6e=16
cha6+4t=10

note: u=level Ups; t=Tome; e=Enhancement; i=Insightful; x=eXceptional; h=eNhancements; d=Destiny;

My thought was that this stat distribution should hopefully allow access to either (the still broken) Combat Archery or Epic Toughness with still only the loss of 2 DCs (sorc PL + one less int level up & 1 less int from the Destiny). Until they fix Combat Archery, my thought would be to take Epic Toughness and feat swap later (instead of reincarnating with ED risk) if/when they fix Combat Archery.

The net gains of the above (in addition to unlocking both CA & ET) is even overall stats & +1 str (while making str even) & it frees up 2 ED points to take something within Shadow Dancer. That being said, gear changes and I am not sure making my starting stats uneven like that is a good trade off for those gains...

Looks like a good option to me, especially for a first life. As mentioned previously the two DC loss will make a difference in EE, but not so much in EH. Being able to have the option of combat archery or epic toughness is very nice.

The even str doesn't really matter since the only thing str contributes to this build is carrying capacity. The two extra points to spend in shadowdancer, however, is a nice bonus. It would allow you to get shadow manipulation which is fun and handy.

I'm not sure what gear changes you would make with this setup so I can't really comment on that.

Overall I'd say it's a solid option for a first life.
01-04-2013, 05:13 AM
Loriac

Some further thoughts about this build:

It looks like my artificer is going to look similar to your build, except that I'm going with mithral body and precision, and dropping empower and combat archery to do so featwise. Combat archery is being hyped up, and this puzzles me to be honest (notwithstanding that its bugged atm) because at best you're adding one die of damage (say 6.5, assuming d12) which translates to around 12dps (1.8 bolts per second give or take). Whilst 12 dps is not insignificant, it doesn't qualitatively affect what the build can do - you might take a boss mob down a few seconds earlier than you would do otherwise, but beyond that it doesn't suddenly make other things possible.

One area where I have realised I was wrong before was on DCs - I now think the focus on maximising these, and taking +6 Int from EDs is absolutely the correct way to go with the artificer. This means that shiradi is pretty much out, unless one is willing to forego prismatic strike and tactical det in favor of pin and otto's whistler to replace cc capability. I'm also really not seeing whats in it for the arti - the xbow represents under 50% of an arti's dps, and he has no spells like magic missile that can take advantage of shiradi's proc per missile and spellpower boosts. I'll still fill out the destiny to get fate points, but I doubt its a good choice for the arti.

That leaves shadowdancer and draconic as the true go-to destinies for the arti, with draconic being brute force to shadowdancer's finesse. I suspect the most satisfying approach will be to adapt the build so that it can easily make use of either destiny, and ideally in less than a 3-day window (i.e. without re-speccing enhancements to do so). This opens up a problem with a pure force based arti - he won't be able to make use of draconic in the same way as one who has elec or acid as well as force.

I'm currently even toying with the idea of leaving all 3 lines available, with 7/1/1, 7/1/1, and 6/1/1 ap spends in force, acid, and elec respectively. The main reason for this is that ultimately, whilst lucid/archaic are good vs. bosses, corruption and tovens are probably much better vs. trash, especially if you have very high DCs. If one wanted to use draconic, one would need to pick up acid or elec in any case, so one could use the 8 points and make the chosen element 7/5/5 if one really did want to specialise. Further, I think that draconic will make it harder to get +6 int because of other options in the tree, but on the flip side a lot of the power is coming from nukes which are less reliant on absolutely maximised DCs.

For reference, my ap spend will end up being something like:

Battle Engineer + prerequisites 11ap; capstone 2ap; all runearm enhancements 16ap; Int III 12 ap; wand mastery III 6ap; healers friend II and racial toughness II 6ap. Leaving 27 ap, of which repair gets 1/0/0, and chosen elements get the remainder.

On defence, the impression I have with defensive capabilities and how they have evolved is that the devs are expecting characters to have multiple sources of defence that combine together in a whole is greater than the sum of their parts kind of way. I think what this means is that its a mistake to completely dump AC on an arti. With mithral body, lithe, and various self-buffs and items, I think its possible to hit AC of 70ish quite easily. Under the new system, this may mitigate say 15-20% of damage coming in. This on its own sounds low, but you can then factor in dodge (where getting to 10% or so is relatively easy for a shadowdancer) and incorporeal miss chance (25% for the shadow form). Dumping any (or all) of these sources of defense will quickly increase the damage taken. This is my main reason for putting mithral body ahead of combat archery - I suspect that it will make a qualitative difference in survivability. I still need to run this guy through epic content to test this assumption though.

One thing I will say - I did run my character as an arti on his 2nd life, with one PL as sorc. In that life, I hadn't max'd DCs, but I did have mithral body and a reasonable AC. My experience was that solo EH was completely doable, and I did all the U14 quests except CITW solo at that difficulty. However, in my final sorc life on this guy, I was running with the basic composite body, and the difference was brutal - where my arti had felt semi-resiliant, the sorc felt like he was made of tissue paper.

Finally, what I'm finding hardest about this build is itemisation. In particular, slotting in the elemental lore lines is tough, and you're likely to be reliant on the cannith challenge items. My current thinking is that I'll only be able to slot in one GS (probably head slot), and whilst it will be conc-opp, it will be unusual in that I'll do +25hp, +100sp in order to combine hp and sp on a single item. I guess you could build a full SP item that you then replace out with your HP item post-buffing, but in practice I find it incredibly easy to forget to change before you shrine. Arcane lore is also problematic if you're not using lucid. Whilst not a problem for the dubbel o7 build as written, you would need a source of arcane lore when not using lucid if you did take up an elemental line. My solution is to keep arcane lore on the body slot, and move +8int out to either the trinket or goggles.
01-04-2013, 05:36 AM
Loriac

Purely as an intial line in the sand, these are my thoughts on itemisation:

head: GS conc opp, 25hp, 100sp
goggle: +8 Int, +13 disable device
trinket: tier 3 spyglass with toughness slotted
neck: charisma +7, greater luck (+5 resists, +1 good luck) - if you can get a major luck version thats even better
bracers: wind tier 3 with exc. Int +1; swap out to convalescant of sup parrying if not using tovens
cloak: dragon cloak
belt: +8 dex, +13 balance
gloves: PDK
boots: rock tier 3, with exc. Con and GFL slotted
R1: master artifice tier 3 with Con +6 and Heavy fort slotted
R2: avithoul (+2 insightful dex variant)
body: fleshmaker's docent with arcane lore upgrade (gives 10% heal amp amongst other things)
runearm: archaic (I prefer not having a huge bug on my arm lol) / corruption epic hard / tovens

There would be situational swaps as necessary, e.g. slot in deathblock of superior stability docent if needed; slot in +8 Int trinket and blindness immunity goggles of eagle +13 if needed; and so on.

This set up gives you +10/11 on dex and int, +9 to con, and keeps your cha and wis up to help with saves and umd. You have superior lore in elec and acid, and can completely swap out the relevant item if not using it (if going down this route, you'd slot GFL in both the bracers and the boots, as you'll be wearing one or the other at any moment in time). Heal amp can hit a respectable (for a wf self healer at least) 20% or so, and you'd only carry heal [i.e. no reconstruction] scrolls (which you could use to self heal for around 290 a pop).

There are places where the gear could be better, e.g. major luck instead of greater luck. Also, I'm missing out on planar conflux and therefore 50sp, and probably a few other things as well. Conversely, this build can hotswap tovens, corruption of nature, and archaic in any quest and still retain 85-90% of theoretical maximums for the runearm, whilst at the same time being able to throw decent blade barriers (as arcane lore is slotted separately to the runearm) and top of the line prismatic and tac det.

There is an argument to swap the docent out to blue dragonscale for an extra 3% BB crit chance, but you're trading 3% extra damage on BB for the other benefits of fleshmakers in that case.

The +8Int / +13 DD may look a little odd, but the spyglass covers spot and search full time anyway, so this way you don't even have to swap gear to fulfil trapmonkey tasks.

I originally considered ring of the stalker, but I understand that manslayer doesn't work on ranged attacks, so you lose +5 sneak attack for seeker +6, which is a bad trade imo - sneak attack is worth 8 damage per shot, whilst seeker +6 is worth 2.4 per shot on repeater.

The reason for slotting +1 exc Int on the bracers is that you hit 48 Int when using corruption without the +1 -

18 base + 4 tome + 6 level up + 3 enhancement + 6 ED + 8 item + 3 insightful (from corruption EH version) = 48

For tovens, you only +2 insightful INT from the spyglass, but you gain +1 from the bracers, to get you back to 48. If you want to keep this DC using lucid / archaic, you have to keep the bracers on.
01-04-2013, 01:37 PM
CThruTheEgo

Some interesting thoughts Loriac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

Combat archery is being hyped up

I agree that combat archery atm is pretty useless. If it were working properly, however, I would say it is totally worth it. You would certainly get more out of it than precision, that is for sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

That leaves shadowdancer and draconic as the true go-to destinies for the arti, with draconic being brute force to shadowdancer's finesse. I suspect the most satisfying approach will be to adapt the build so that it can easily make use of either destiny, and ideally in less than a 3-day window (i.e. without re-speccing enhancements to do so). This opens up a problem with a pure force based arti - he won't be able to make use of draconic in the same way as one who has elec or acid as well as force.

I'm currently even toying with the idea of leaving all 3 lines available, with 7/1/1, 7/1/1, and 6/1/1 ap spends in force, acid, and elec respectively. The main reason for this is that ultimately, whilst lucid/archaic are good vs. bosses, corruption and tovens are probably much better vs. trash, especially if you have very high DCs. If one wanted to use draconic, one would need to pick up acid or elec in any case, so one could use the 8 points and make the chosen element 7/5/5 if one really did want to specialise. Further, I think that draconic will make it harder to get +6 int because of other options in the tree, but on the flip side a lot of the power is coming from nukes which are less reliant on absolutely maximised DCs.

I see a couple of problems with this way of thinking. The first has to do with quest difficulty. On EE you are not going to want a great deal of AoE damage (which also makes energy burst a dangerous ability to use in EE). EE is generally much more about picking off enemies one at a time and basically becomes a boss beatdown for every single mob. So the single target rune arms (Lucid Dreams/Archaic Device/Corruption of Nature) are better in this situation imo. On EH the extra damage from various AoE sources (Toven's/blast rod/energy burst) is not necessary because Ehard is just so easy. A maximized/empowered, fully force specced blade barrier is plenty sufficient to take out a group of trash mobs on EH. If there were not such a drastic difference between EH and EE, then I would say this way of thinking might be correct for whatever difficulty lies between them. But as the game stands I think the difference in difficulties dictates very different build requirements and playstyles between the two.

The second problem I see has to do with the DC on Toven's Hammer. Earlier in this thread I mentioned my experience with Toven's, in short, it was rather disappointing. I saw A LOT of saves when using Toven's, much more so than I did when using tactical detonation and blade barrier (all three of which are reflex based saves). This led me to believe (though I have not tested it as I don't have the time) that the twisted DC's are not being applied to rune arms. Far too often three of the four lightning balls from Toven's would hit below 100 damage, which is just pitiful. This alone is enough for me to rule out spending anything more than 1/0/0 in electric for Toven's.

That does, however, leave Corruption of Nature and the acid line as a possibility for Draconic. I still don't have corruption of nature yet, so I can't say how effective or ineffective this is. I do know that a fully force specced Lucid Dreams or Archaic Device, with the listed gear, hits for about 300 per bolt and crits for 800-900. I can't see corruption being that much better as to want to take away from this, but if/when I get one I will try it out. However, if it is the case that twisted DC's are not being applied to rune arms then I suspect that corruption of nature will suffer the same problems as Toven's since it is a fort based save (which is fairly high save for most mobs). The force rune arms are will based (which is generally the weakest trash save).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

On defence, the impression I have with defensive capabilities and how they have evolved is that the devs are expecting characters to have multiple sources of defence that combine together in a whole is greater than the sum of their parts kind of way. I think what this means is that its a mistake to completely dump AC on an arti. With mithral body, lithe, and various self-buffs and items, I think its possible to hit AC of 70ish quite easily. Under the new system, this may mitigate say 15-20% of damage coming in. This on its own sounds low, but you can then factor in dodge (where getting to 10% or so is relatively easy for a shadowdancer) and incorporeal miss chance (25% for the shadow form). Dumping any (or all) of these sources of defense will quickly increase the damage taken. This is my main reason for putting mithral body ahead of combat archery - I suspect that it will make a qualitative difference in survivability. I still need to run this guy through epic content to test this assumption though.

One thing I will say - I did run my character as an arti on his 2nd life, with one PL as sorc. In that life, I hadn't max'd DCs, but I did have mithral body and a reasonable AC. My experience was that solo EH was completely doable, and I did all the U14 quests except CITW solo at that difficulty. However, in my final sorc life on this guy, I was running with the basic composite body, and the difference was brutal - where my arti had felt semi-resiliant, the sorc felt like he was made of tissue paper.

My thoughts on the value of mithral body are also heavily influenced by the difference in difficulty between EH and EE. There is really a lot to be said (and it's been said) about the ease of EH and the insane difficulty of EE and why that disparity is a problem, but that is another thread entirely. I don't have any problem surviving on EH, whether solo or in a group. It's really kind of a joke. In EE, it's about not getting hit at all. In EE I'll die in 2-5 hits, depending on what is hitting me. Mithral body will slightly increase your chance of not getting hit, but when you do I suspect that with the PRR gained you might die in 3-6 hits. So I don't think it's really a huge gain. Since combat archery is broken I would say you could definitely dump this for mithral body, but I would not get rid of empower. In fact, now that I think about it, I might go swap out combat archery for mithral body just to see for myself how effective it would be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

Finally, what I'm finding hardest about this build is itemisation.

The gear does get a lot more complicated if you're trying to accommodate 3 different damage types. If you only go force and acid, however, you could easily swap the listed boots for the Rock Boots and not really lose anything. Then you would be fully force/acid specced by losing very little.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

I originally considered ring of the stalker, but I understand that manslayer doesn't work on ranged attacks

Manslayer does work with ranged, at least when using the Drow Smoke Goggles, and is very nice to have on a repeater build.

If you make any of these adjustments to the build, please provide an update as to how it works out for you.
01-04-2013, 04:31 PM
Loriac

Just a few thoughts:

Precision vs. combat archery - assuming shadowdancer, i.e. 5d6 sneak dice, and +13 from seal of avithoul, you're at 30 sneak damage per bolt. Precision reduces fort by up to 25%, so on mobs with fortification exceeding 25%, you're getting 7.5 per shot from precision (30 x 0.25). This is slightly ahead of combat archery, but I take your point that because combat archery is 'always on' (provided its working) it may be better. However, precision also gives you +5% to hit after all other calculations, so anytime you're not hitting on a 2, its adding 5% of your shot per bolt to your expected damage over time. This I think makes precision far stronger than even a working combat archery.

Edit - this also doesn't include the impact from needing 17 or 18 dex at creation, which costs you 3-4 con, and 50 hp at level 25, all other things being equal. Combat archery is great for purely (weapons based) ranged builds, but the artificer is not such a build. Combat archery imo strains other aspects of the build for what is, at the end of the day, around 12-15 dps on your repeater. This simply isn't worth it.

Re: EE - I don't have any experience as such of epic elites, and so I will take what you say as correct on this re: survivability. As I level my guy through his final life into epic, I will see how things go with mithral body. I've taken it at a relatively late level, so it would be easy to swap out with Fred if necessary.

As I level up (my arti is L16 atm), I intend to evaluate how the different runearms perform in the field (on paper, the elemental runearms are significantly ahead of force, largely due to superior lore), and if corruption of nature is worth investing the ap for.

Regardless of this however, the point I was trying to make was this: if one intends to go draconic (fully or partially) during endgame, one will have to choose an element to focus in; ap usage elsewhere means that at most you'll have 26-35 ap to spend on your damage lines (35 ap if you drop Int III and W+SM III say). Full force investment will take away from the benefit you get from going draconic.

In the end, what it seems to boil down to is, just how valuable is blade barrier at end game. In your build, you are spending 2 feats (max, empower) and an additional 10 ap into force almost purely for that one spell. The ap spend in particular is made necessary because blade barrier is only practically affected by arcane lore. One option you may want to consider is that if blade barrier is that important, creating a superior lacerating lore xbow via alchemical crafting may allow you to free up some ap from force (or conversely, make BB hit even harder).

On my build, I'm actually seriously considering the benefit of even maximise at this stage - if I was to drop it, I could fit in Great Intelligence as an epic feat, which would allow me to hit 50 Int unbuffed, and that would help out everything else on the build probably far more than a slightly better BB.

On itemisation - on your loadout, swapping out the boots leaves you 4 adrift on dex. This isn't build-breaking, but if you did want to mitigate this loss there'd be a fair amount of shuffling elsewhere. Additionally, your layout accepts the seal of avithoul as being your swappable ring; however, you'd now be fully reliant on that ring for all your dex bonus, so it would no longer be easily swappable. This probably has consequential impact if you then wanted to slot in deathblock situationally (neck is easy from the silver flame amulet, but on your layout you would then lose heavy fort, which would have to be slotted elsewhere etc). Your layout also makes the cloak slot important, as it powers your BB item spellpower, so its not easy to swap that out for say the mabar cloak either.

In other words, I think the itemisation changes are harder than they look at first glance.

This is why in my current thinking on layout, I have allowed for only 1 GS item, and I have reduced the importance of the docent slot by moving +8 Int elsewhere.

Finally, if manslayer does work on ranged, then I'd still not bother with the smoke goggles; instead, I would use seal of avithoul vs. all mobs except humanoids, and swap to tier 3 stalker ring for humanoids. The vorpal effect is worth 5 damage per shot in a worst case scenario, which isn't too far behind the 8 sneak attack damage lost from the +5 backstabbing on avithoul. In total, manslayer would yield 5 + 2.4 (for seeker) = 7.4 damage per shot vs. 8 damage per shot lost vs. avithoul. In return, you get the vorpal ability, which is worth the 0.6 damage lost per shot in my view.
01-04-2013, 08:17 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

Precision vs. combat archery - assuming shadowdancer, i.e. 5d6 sneak dice, and +13 from seal of avithoul, you're at 30 sneak damage per bolt. Precision reduces fort by up to 25%, so on mobs with fortification exceeding 25%, you're getting 7.5 per shot from precision (30 x 0.25). This is slightly ahead of combat archery, but I take your point that because combat archery is 'always on' (provided its working) it may be better. However, precision also gives you +5% to hit after all other calculations, so anytime you're not hitting on a 2, its adding 5% of your shot per bolt to your expected damage over time. This I think makes precision far stronger than even a working combat archery.

I have no problems hitting on this build, even in EE. When I'm up against tougher mobs I keep an eye on the dice and rarely do I notice that I'm not hitting on a 2 or higher. So the 5% bonus from precision is not necessary. Most mobs do not have any fort at all, and so at best, the fort bypass is situationally useful. This is why I conclude that the consistent bonus damage from combat archery is more beneficial overall than the situational value of precision.

BTW, shadowdancer does 6d6 sneak damage for an average of 21, +8 from avithoul, +5-8 from avithoul or planar focus subterfuge for a total of 34-39. These numbers don't change the points of my argument above however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

Edit - this also doesn't include the impact from needing 17 or 18 dex at creation, which costs you 3-4 con, and 50 hp at level 25, all other things being equal. Combat archery is great for purely (weapons based) ranged builds, but the artificer is not such a build. Combat archery imo strains other aspects of the build for what is, at the end of the day, around 12-15 dps on your repeater. This simply isn't worth it.

It doesn't really strain anything though. You are right that the artificer is not simply a ranged build. As far as I see it, a WF arti focuses on three build aspects: ranged, casting, and survivability. As a 36 pt build you can maximize 2 of these 3 aspects.

With survivability, you've got to find the sweet spot for your playstyle. There is obviously the possibility of too little survivability, but there is also such a thing as too much survivability. At some point it just becomes overkill, and where that point is will vary based on the player and playstyle. I find this build to be just perfect for my playstyle in terms of survivability. I had originally planned for this build to have epic toughness instead of combat archery. But wax_on_wax_off pointed out that a ranged build doesn't need the HP of a front-line melee. And after playing this build as it is listed in the OP, I have to agree with him. What I have is plenty and the extra hundred that 4 points of con and epic toughness would have gotten me would be overkill and that would have been a sacrifice that wasn't worth it. In both EH and EE content this build has just the right amount of survivability for my playstyle. You will have to find what works for you.

So with the survivability aspect at just the right spot, that leaves ranged and casting capabilities. The only ranged feat this build is missing out on is precision which, as I've already mentioned, doesn't seem necessary. And the ranged capabilities of the build do not interfere with the casting capabilities. All the casting feats are there, and the int is as high as it can be with the tomes I have available. So combat archery doesn't really take anything away, at least not for my playstyle.

This is all sort of a silly argument though since combat archery does not work and no one has any clue as to when it will actually be fixed. But LRing is also broke and does not seem like it is ever going to be fixed. So you can 1) build for combat archery and hope it gets fixed, 2) don't build for it and play Russian Roulette with your epic destiny xp when you LR, or 3) forget about combat archery altogether and sacrifice some of the ranged capability of the build (if it ever gets fixed of course).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

the point I was trying to make was this: if one intends to go draconic (fully or partially) during endgame, one will have to choose an element to focus in; ap usage elsewhere means that at most you'll have 26-35 ap to spend on your damage lines (35 ap if you drop Int III and W+SM III say). Full force investment will take away from the benefit you get from going draconic.

As I mentioned in my previous post, from my experience it is not worth it to spec for electric and use Toven's. That only leaves Corruption of Nature and the acid line. You can easily drop force to 7/2/1 and put those 9 extra points into acid for 7/1/1. If you're goal is to go with draconic, this is the best compromise and value for each imo. It's a little sacrifice to your force line (primarily affecting force rune arms and blade barrier) for a big gain to Corruption of Nature.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

In the end, what it seems to boil down to is, just how valuable is blade barrier at end game. In your build, you are spending 2 feats (max, empower) and an additional 10 ap into force almost purely for that one spell. The ap spend in particular is made necessary because blade barrier is only practically affected by arcane lore. One option you may want to consider is that if blade barrier is that important, creating a superior lacerating lore xbow via alchemical crafting may allow you to free up some ap from force (or conversely, make BB hit even harder).

The force line affects much more than just blade barrier. Synergy is a key point of this build and the reason I choose to not utilize the elemental lines and go fully force specced. If you invest in acid, the only thing that line will affect is Corruption of Nature. No arti spell does acid damage, so that's a pretty big investment for the benefit of only a single rune arm, imo. The force line affects the force rune arms as well as the 3 primary offensive spells an arti uses at endgame: blade barrier, tactical detonation, and prismatic strike. Tactical and prismatic can also be maximized/empowered and both do some serious damage when they are. While some arti's do this, I generally do not, preferring to use them primarily for CC to manage sp. The benefit of blade barrier over the other two is that it is a persistent AoE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

On my build, I'm actually seriously considering the benefit of even maximise at this stage - if I was to drop it, I could fit in Great Intelligence as an epic feat, which would allow me to hit 50 Int unbuffed, and that would help out everything else on the build probably far more than a slightly better BB.

Blade barrier is an arti's primary dps spell, and pretty much the only one. Tactical could be used as a dps spell but blade barrier works better for this purpose because it is persistent. So dropping both empower and maximize you will be sacrificing your main (and pretty much only) dps spell.

As far as an extra DC, I'm not sure if you've read through this entire thread or not, but I've already mentioned how the DC's on this build perform in both EH and EE. In EH nothing saves and in EE the DC's are about 50% effective. One more DC won't make much of a difference. On the other hand, blade barrier, while not something I use consistently in EE as it is generally one mob at a time, is the spell that saves a party wipe when things get out of control (just drop some blade barriers and start kiting while the rest of the group gets back up). Dumping empower, maximize, and going 7/1/1 in the force line you would lose 150 spell power, 5% crit chance, and 50% crit damage, which would significantly reduce the effectiveness of this tactic for saving a party wipe in EE.

This build is intended for EE performance. If you're only priority is EH then you can pretty much do whatever you want and you'll still succeed. But if you're goal is EE, then you're going to want maximize at least, and probably empower as well.

Also, as this build already has max int with a +3 tome, you would need to take both Great Int and have a +4 tome to raise the DC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

On itemisation - on your loadout, swapping out the boots leaves you 4 adrift on dex. This isn't build-breaking, but if you did want to mitigate this loss there'd be a fair amount of shuffling elsewhere.

I'm glad you reminded me of this, I've been meaning to change the OP. I actually find myself using the Cannith Propulsion Boots most of the time instead of the Treads of Falling Shadow. Running in shadowdancer with insightful reflexes means the only thing the Treads provide is +2 to attack, which is pretty insignificant tbh. I prefer the max jump and constant feather fall of the Propulsion Boots. So you're not really losing anything by dropping those 4 dex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

Additionally, your layout accepts the seal of avithoul as being your swappable ring; however, you'd now be fully reliant on that ring for all your dex bonus, so it would no longer be easily swappable.

I don't have any rings that I swap, so this is a non-issue for me. In fact, pretty much the only swapping I do is for buffs at the beginning of a quest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

This probably has consequential impact if you then wanted to slot in deathblock situationally (neck is easy from the silver flame amulet, but on your layout you would then lose heavy fort, which would have to be slotted elsewhere etc). Your layout also makes the cloak slot important, as it powers your BB item spellpower, so its not easy to swap that out for say the mabar cloak either.

In other words, I think the itemisation changes are harder than they look at first glance.

There are very few places at endgame (or the whole game for that matter) where a deathblock item is actually needed. And in the vast majority of those places, an unsuppressed pale lavender ioun stone (which is incredibly easy to farm now) is sufficient to get you through without a deathblock item. For the couple of quests/places where it is not sufficient, I just swap in Tira's Splendor (also relatively easy to farm) which has deathblock on it.

So changing the gear setup to spec for an element is pretty easy actually. If you want to go acid specced, just use the Rock Boots instead of the Propulsion Boots or Treads. If you want to go electric specced, just use the Bracers of Wind instead of the Wind Howler Bracers. If you want both, switch em both out. Clean and simple.
01-05-2013, 02:45 AM
Loriac

On the enhancements, do you use your dog enough to spend 2ap on uncaring master? Also, by level 25, can the 3 ap in UMD be freed up? On my build (which I'm only levelling to 24 unless I find some item with ML25 that I just can't do without) I can get to UMD of 38 before GH, which is enough to scroll GH and then no-fail cast ressurection / greater restoration etc without spending any ap on UMD. Your build hits around the same UMD I think due to your shroud +5 item.

Also, is the spend on xbow damage 2 worthwhile - 2ap for effectively 2dps? I leave mine at the base level to qualify for the PRE.

On my build, I'm spec'ing wand and scroll mastery III rather than II, on the basis that even as WF my preference is to scroll heal before dipping into the blue bar. I also have geared to achieve heal amp of around 20% (0.7 base x 1.1 x 1.2 x 1.3 heal amp items = 1.2) which means that I won't carry reconstruct scrolls at all, and will instead rely on heal scrolls. Heal scrolls would hit me for 150 x 1.6 x 1.2 = 288hp.

Edit: re shadowdancer 6d6, is that confirmed? The wording says 1d6 per level, and each ED has only 5 levels - the '6th' level is merely the capping of the destiny and doesn't e.g. contribute to fate points. I originally also read it as 6d6 sneak damage, but on review wasn't sure if thats actually what you get.
01-05-2013, 11:09 AM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

On the enhancements, do you use your dog enough to spend 2ap on uncaring master? Also, by level 25, can the 3 ap in UMD be freed up? On my build (which I'm only levelling to 24 unless I find some item with ML25 that I just can't do without) I can get to UMD of 38 before GH, which is enough to scroll GH and then no-fail cast ressurection / greater restoration etc without spending any ap on UMD. Your build hits around the same UMD I think due to your shroud +5 item.

Also, is the spend on xbow damage 2 worthwhile - 2ap for effectively 2dps? I leave mine at the base level to qualify for the PRE.

The ap really are not tight on a WF arti because they do not have many racial enhancements worth taking. On a human or helf they are much more tight and you have to make sacrifices. This is actually one of the strengths of a WF, being able to max the force line and not sacrificing anything else. Or, for your purposes, being able to go 7/1/1 in force and an element and not sacrifice anything else. It is much harder to do that on a human or helf and you are almost certainly going to have to sacrifice some of the racial enhancements that are what make going those races worthwhile.

Regarding the enhancements you mention specifically: I'd rather not take damage when the dog dies, and he dies a lot. No I don't really need the UMD, but why not? I think my UMD actually hovers around 50 iirc. And as I've mentioned before this build is casting AND ranged focus, I've tried to maximize them both, and there isn't much else worth taking over damage2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

On my build, I'm spec'ing wand and scroll mastery III rather than II, on the basis that even as WF my preference is to scroll heal before dipping into the blue bar. I also have geared to achieve heal amp of around 20% (0.7 base x 1.1 x 1.2 x 1.3 heal amp items = 1.2) which means that I won't carry reconstruct scrolls at all, and will instead rely on heal scrolls. Heal scrolls would hit me for 150 x 1.6 x 1.2 = 288hp.

I just use recon scrolls and they hit me for plenty, I don't know exactly how much but I use them when not in combat to save sp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

Edit: re shadowdancer 6d6, is that confirmed? The wording says 1d6 per level, and each ED has only 5 levels - the '6th' level is merely the capping of the destiny and doesn't e.g. contribute to fate points. I originally also read it as 6d6 sneak damage, but on review wasn't sure if thats actually what you get.

Every ED actually has 6 levels, but they are numbered 0-5. They all grant certain abilities at level 0. Check the in-game description of shadowdancer, I believe the passive ability granted at level 0 specifies that it grants d6 sneak die per level including this one.

EDIT: The "levels" are officially called "tiers," and there are six tiers to each destiny.
01-07-2013, 01:02 AM
Singular

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

On the enhancements, do you use your dog enough to spend 2ap on uncaring master? Also, by level 25, can the 3 ap in UMD be freed up? On my build (which I'm only levelling to 24 unless I find some item with ML25 that I just can't do without) I can get to UMD of 38 before GH, which is enough to scroll GH and then no-fail cast ressurection / greater restoration etc without spending any ap on UMD. Your build hits around the same UMD I think due to your shroud +5 item.

Also, is the spend on xbow damage 2 worthwhile - 2ap for effectively 2dps? I leave mine at the base level to qualify for the PRE.

On my build, I'm spec'ing wand and scroll mastery III rather than II, on the basis that even as WF my preference is to scroll heal before dipping into the blue bar. I also have geared to achieve heal amp of around 20% (0.7 base x 1.1 x 1.2 x 1.3 heal amp items = 1.2) which means that I won't carry reconstruct scrolls at all, and will instead rely on heal scrolls. Heal scrolls would hit me for 150 x 1.6 x 1.2 = 288hp.

Edit: re shadowdancer 6d6, is that confirmed? The wording says 1d6 per level, and each ED has only 5 levels - the '6th' level is merely the capping of the destiny and doesn't e.g. contribute to fate points. I originally also read it as 6d6 sneak damage, but on review wasn't sure if thats actually what you get.

I find that I use the dog when doing EHs or soloing, but not while doing EEs or raids. So I don't take the Uncaring Master for 2 APs - imo, they're better spent elsewhere, like in the spell lines.

I try to boost my xbow damage as much as I can. So, yes, I think it's absolutely necessary to get what you can out of it.

Regarding other parts of this conversation: I use empower, maximize and quicken on every damaging spell. I've maxed out the force line - 7/6/6 - and rely on blade barrier, tactical detonation and prismatic strike. Tactical is great for firing into mobs, then bb to surround yourself, and prismatic any casters to do quick and sudden damage. The quick casting is absolutely necessary for clearing mobs fast - I alternate between Endless Fullisade and spell use, using my rune arm whenever it can bring down a mob or if it's at full power. My secondary line is electric for the other CC aoe spell, lightning sphere (but it's only backup for when tac det is on timer, if I'm trying to do aoe damage quickly).

The thing is, it's more efficient to drop mobs then cast several spells. You want each spell to do the most damage it can produce as quickly as possible. If you don't use max/empower, then you'll be casting more spells and therefore losing more sp overall, while taking damage as the yet-living mobs attack you.
01-07-2013, 02:15 AM
Valiance

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

That does, however, leave Corruption of Nature and the acid line as a possibility for Draconic. I still don't have corruption of nature yet, so I can't say how effective or ineffective this is. I do know that a fully force specced Lucid Dreams or Archaic Device, with the listed gear, hits for about 300 per bolt and crits for 800-900. I can't see corruption being that much better as to want to take away from this, but if/when I get one I will try it out. However, if it is the case that twisted DC's are not being applied to rune arms then I suspect that corruption of nature will suffer the same problems as Toven's since it is a fort based save (which is fairly high save for most mobs). The force rune arms are will based (which is generally the weakest trash save).

I used to love force based rune arms...until I got an epic elite Corruption. Let's do some numbers:

The force rune arms are 8-26 plus 1d8 per level, or an average of 107 (level 20) per shot before spell power is added on. Corruption is 8-30 plus 1d10 per level, or an average of 129 (level 20) per shot before any spell power is added on.

Just from these numbers I can see where people might take the better save of the force rune arms. But the differences don't end there.

Most importantly, look at what happens to your damage when you use just one gear slot (boots) with your Corruption of Nature:

+3 int (rune arm) awesome
114 corrosion (rune arm) awesome
76 potency (rune arm)
Superior acid lore (rock boots)
18 if wanted from adamantine cloak of dragon (ok ok that's 2 gear slots)

Compare those numbers with your force layout:

76 potency
arcane lore (lucid dreams)
18 from cloak of dragon

Acid=132 potency, 12% chance to crit for .5
Force= 94 potency, 6% chance to crit for .25

So for a single level 20 shot the numbers are:

Force- 107*1.94= 207.58 + ((207.58 *.06) * 1.25))=223.14
Acid- 129*2.32=299.28 + ((299.28*.12) *1.5)) = 353.15

So 223 versus 353 with rune arm and gear only (leaving out enhancement bonuses which btw would favor acid because of bigger crits). Even if mobs save twice as often on the acid rune arm the average damage is still much higher.

Then the advantages just get better from there. I find Rock boots to be best in slot for their multiple guards, slippery surface immunity and 2 epic slots even before counting on their major acid lore. Getting that synergy is nice.

Also and most importantly, acid focused arti's get the most out of Draconic which I find to be (by far) the most powerful ED. Draconic offers the evocation focus, massive damage output potential, the opportunity for 30 more constant acid spellpower, as well as the short term possibility of 50 more spellpower during draconic fury.

TL;DR- Corruption of Nature, Rock boots and acid focused Draconic are crazy powerful.
01-15-2013, 02:14 PM
Loriac

Back at Level 20 now, and running around with Corruption of Nature (Epic Hard version), Archaic Device (which I prefer to Lucid dreams), and Tovens. I'm currently spec'd at 7/1/1 in all 3 lines, and have greater arcane lore slotted as well as superior lore for acid and elec.

I almost never use force shots.

Toven's is great on mobs which it works on (non-evasion, non-lightning immune). And by great, I mean its superb AoE damage which the artificer doesn't otherwise get. There are some mobs (spiders, evasive drow) on which it is unusable. For the rest, its a great weapon. The fact that its unusable even in explorer areas like King's Forest (my arti currently has 42 Int without ship buffs, so the DCs shouldn't be that bad) tells me that this isn't an issue with EE content only; evasion mobs will evade a lot of your shots regardless of difficulty. For raw dps, you can't beat Tovens if you're firing at non-evasion mobs that are clustered in groups.

Corruption hits hard. I compared shots against boss type mobs, testing both archaic and corruption against the same mob. Even where I thought the boss was making fort saves easily, I never saw Archaic damage come even close to corruption. To be honest, it surprised me a little, but if a mob is not immune to acid, corruption > archaic every single time.

Archaic is my backup. For example, its good vs. wisps which are immune to elemental damage. It also (possibly) has more reliable shots on mansize targets, where the acid blobs sometimes seem to orbit the target rather than hit it (although force shots are not immune to this behaviour).

The downside of 7/1/1 across 3 lines is that like-for-like, my arti will be about 10% damage behind a similar build who has spec'd fully into force or acid or electric. The upside is that I have 3 tools in the box, so not every problem looks like a nail to be hammered.

What is most glaring to me, particularly as I can hot swap the runearms in individual fights, is how much better elemental damage is when it works.

I will continue to play around with all 3 runearms as I fill out EDs and start hitting harder content, but at the moment I have to say that it seems like a mistake to me for an arti to specialise in the lowest damaging runearm type purely because its a catch-all that very few mobs are immune to.
01-15-2013, 11:51 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

Toven's is great on mobs which it works on (non-evasion, non-lightning immune). And by great, I mean its superb AoE damage which the artificer doesn't otherwise get. There are some mobs (spiders, evasive drow) on which it is unusable. For the rest, its a great weapon. The fact that its unusable even in explorer areas like King's Forest (my arti currently has 42 Int without ship buffs, so the DCs shouldn't be that bad) tells me that this isn't an issue with EE content only; evasion mobs will evade a lot of your shots regardless of difficulty. For raw dps, you can't beat Tovens if you're firing at non-evasion mobs that are clustered in groups.

This is precisely the problem with Toven's. For most current endgame content, it simply doesn't work on those mobs. If you're not concerned with that content, and with only doing EN, then it's a fine option. But this build is specifically designed for the hardest content, which means Toven's is a poor choice for it.

And arti's get one of the best AoE spells in the game: blade barrier. That is one of the most effective tools in an arti's arsenal. I understand not everyone is into using blade barrier all the time, but it is an excellent AoE option for an arti nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

Corruption hits hard. I compared shots against boss type mobs, testing both archaic and corruption against the same mob. Even where I thought the boss was making fort saves easily, I never saw Archaic damage come even close to corruption. To be honest, it surprised me a little, but if a mob is not immune to acid, corruption > archaic every single time.

Valiance's math in his post above certainly intrigues me. I've been maxing out Dubbell's favor for the last few weeks so I haven't been grinding any gear. But I'm nearly at max favor and will resume the gear grind once I get there. Corruption of Nature is at the top of my list and I'll respec once I get it to see for myself how effective it is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

The downside of 7/1/1 across 3 lines is that like-for-like, my arti will be about 10% damage behind a similar build who has spec'd fully into force or acid or electric. The upside is that I have 3 tools in the box, so not every problem looks like a nail to be hammered.

The value of this greatly depends on the type of content you are interested in playing. If you are not interested in playing the most difficult content, then this is a fine option and adds a great deal of versatility to the playstyle. But if you're interested in the most difficult content, which this build is designed for, then you really need to specialize. You have to give something else up to spend 27 points in the damage lines, which weakens you in other areas. That is spreading yourself just a little too thin in my opinion. If you just want 3 tools for fun, go for it. But you really don't need 3 tools and putting more emphasis on 1-2 of them only makes them more effective. At most I would say 7/1/1 in two lines, and those would have to be force and acid since electric doesn't really work in the harder content. Again, this depends on your goals with the character. I'm speaking specifically about the build in the OP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loriac

What is most glaring to me, particularly as I can hot swap the runearms in individual fights, is how much better elemental damage is when it works.

I will continue to play around with all 3 runearms as I fill out EDs and start hitting harder content, but at the moment I have to say that it seems like a mistake to me for an arti to specialise in the lowest damaging runearm type purely because its a catch-all that very few mobs are immune to.

As I have said before, specializing exclusively in force is not just about the rune arm. It also affects all three of the arti's primary offensive spells, most notably one of the most powerful AoE spells in the game, blade barrier. In more difficult content being able to do a few things very well is more valuable then being able to do a lot of things kinda well. The build in the OP is designed to do a few things very well, but those few things can allow you to tackle nearly any obstacle you face, which is why you don't need a large variety of tools. Admittedly this limits the playstyle, but that is the sacrifice for being able to do the hardest content. It just depends on your goals.

Also, for the hardest content (and apparently much easier content since you mentioned it not working in King's Forest), Toven's is the lowest damage rune arm since it doesn't work.
01-16-2013, 08:31 PM
Loriac

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

The value of this greatly depends on the type of content you are interested in playing. If you are not interested in playing the most difficult content, then this is a fine option and adds a great deal of versatility to the playstyle. But if you're interested in the most difficult content, which this build is designed for, then you really need to specialize. You have to give something else up to spend 27 points in the damage lines, which weakens you in other areas. That is spreading yourself just a little too thin in my opinion. If you just want 3 tools for fun, go for it. But you really don't need 3 tools and putting more emphasis on 1-2 of them only makes them more effective. At most I would say 7/1/1 in two lines, and those would have to be force and acid since electric doesn't really work in the harder content. Again, this depends on your goals with the character. I'm speaking specifically about the build in the OP.

You're missing the point I'm making. Lets assume you have an arti with 7/1/1 across 3 lines vs. one who has 7/6/6 in force. There are 3 scenarios:

1. Against mobs that don't evade and are vulnerable to lightning:

Tovens >> Corruption > Lucid

Tovens, as well as being AoE so better for trash clearing, has a lightning strike proc that stacks with LitII and adds 9 damage per bolt, plus it imbues 2-16 damage vs. Lucid's 2-12 (i.e. 2 damage per bolt higher). The 7/1/1 spend outdamages 7/6/6 because of superior lore vs. greater arcane lore

2. Against mobs that evade or are not vulnerable to lightning (but are vulnerable to acid):

Corruption > Lucid > Tovens

Corruption is far better damage than Lucid, even with a 7/1/1 spend. Again, the 2-16 imbue outdamages the extra 1 damage from xbow damage II.

3. Against mobs immune to lightning and acid

Lucid >> Corruption or Tovens

The only situation that your 'specialised' build comes out ahead is the few mobs that are lightning and acid immune at end game. Even in those situations, the difference is around 10% of runearm damage, plus the additional 1 damage per bolt from xbow damage II.

Now, looking at ap, my post a while back above was intended to highlight that you have 7ap spent on your build that could be spent elsewhere: 2 for uncaring master, 3 for UMD, and 2 for xbow damage II.

Lets say instead of spec'ing 7/6/6 force, your build changed to 7/1/1 force, 7/1/1 acid, 6/1/1 elec (i.e. 26 points total, with the 7 additional ap coming from the changes noted) it would do greater runearm/xbow damage in the majority of situations. Your blade barriers, on a like-for-like basis would however hit for around 10% less damage. That is the trade off, and its why I keep saying that your build emphasises blade barrier and is built around that spell.

I've said what I wanted to on this thread, and to avoid further derailment, I'll post any future findings / thoughts I have on runearms and damage lines for artis in a new thread. I think we don't see eye to eye on this, and I don't really want to belabour the point.

Quote:

As I have said before, specializing exclusively in force is not just about the rune arm. It also affects all three of the arti's primary offensive spells, most notably one of the most powerful AoE spells in the game, blade barrier. In more difficult content being able to do a few things very well is more valuable then being able to do a lot of things kinda well. The build in the OP is designed to do a few things very well, but those few things can allow you to tackle nearly any obstacle you face, which is why you don't need a large variety of tools. Admittedly this limits the playstyle, but that is the sacrifice for being able to do the hardest content. It just depends on your goals.

Fwiw, this discussion has been very useful for me because I had originally held blade barrier in less regard as I thought it generally requires kiting in groups (I've never played cleric or fvs toons). However, after reading your points, I do find myself building more heavily toward having a solid blade barrier to throw up when the situation warrants.

Quote:

Also, for the hardest content (and apparently much easier content since you mentioned it not working in King's Forest), Toven's is the lowest damage rune arm since it doesn't work.

But as noted above, when you're fighting specific mobs that are vulnerable to Tovens, it totally outclasses all the other options. This isn't an EE vs. EN question; its really a which mob do I use which runearm on question.
01-21-2013, 04:40 PM
G_Lich

Thanks for all the detailed information on this, I just got done with my 3 sorc past lives to boost up my arti dc's (so I've got the past life rog, past life arti, and 3 sorc, and a +4 supreme tome as a firm basis).

Last arti life was helf and the sneak dice were mean in mid to mid-high levels but petered out in EH/EE Content (and this was using radiance GS repeater for blind) and I found myself wanting bigger beef in my reconstructs. I'm in the CThru camp when it comes to quicken - when I need an emergency button it 100% has to work, concentration is nice to keep a bb or tacdet from failing, but that reconstruct is enough reason to keep quicken.

I have a high-action playstyle so I create emergencies for myself more often than not (FPS gamer, I like making many things angry and running around in a controlled clicky fueled panic until stuffs dead) and this is why my reroll as arti will now be WF - Helf is immune to speed of reconstruction which is nice in a pinch as I've learned in my sorc playthroughs.

I'll be using this build as a base though because everything up to 18 makes perfect sense and it's the epic feats and runearm/enhancement choices that are really up in the air here.

I'll post my findings, but thanks for building a real "meat and potatoes" discussion here.

-Lich = G-land
02-26-2013, 12:29 PM
CThruTheEgo

I've been planning a new gearset for Dubbell based on the gear from U17 and would appreciate any feedback on it. Here is what I've come up with so far:

Armor: Epic Blue Dragon Docent (major arcane lore/potency80/elec res40/blue slotted PRR14/set artifact spell power15)
Goggles: Dream Visor (attack5/dmg5/ghost touch/spot20/yellow slotted con7)
Helm: Helm of the Blue Dragon (int8/green slotted HP35/yellow slotted exc int1/set artifact spell power15)
Neck: GS HP Min2 mee/mep/meep (45HP/con skills6/heavy fort/protection5)
Trinket: Planar Focus of Erudition (insightful int3/set psionic spell power15/wizardy10)
Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Dragon (implement spell power18/potency76/SF mastery/stealth strike)
Belt: GS SP ConOp mon/eep/eepn (blindness immunity, disease6/wis6/diplo10/150SP/cha skills5)
Ring swap: Seal of House Avithoul (dex7/exc sneak3/sneak attack5/imp deception)
Gloves: Purple Dragon Gauntlets (str7/insightful con2/heal amp30)
Boots: Cannith Boots of Propulsion (striding30/feather fall/jump15)
Ring: Epic Ring of the Stalker (exc sneak3/ghostly/manslayer/seeker6/colorless slotted exc con1/yellow slotted deathblock OR cha7)
Bracers: Bracers of Twisting Shadow (search20/disable20/blurry/exc seeker5/resistance7)
Quiver: Quiver of poison (ranged 1d10 poison)

SLOTTED: PRR14, con7, HP35, exc int1, exc con1, deathblock OR cha7 (I'm leaning toward cha7, although neither are really necessary)
NET GAIN: major arcane lore, elec res40, PRR14, spell power19, attack5, dmg5, ghostly, spot25, search20, disable20, blurry, exc seeker5, resistance1, deathblock OR cha7, d10 poison
NET LOSS: attack2, dmg1 (These are from the Windhowler Bracers and I'm not sure if these would stack with the Dream Visor), shrieking bolt, HP10, good luck2, protection1, gr auto repair, repair systems, superior repair lore, reconstruct10

Overall, that is a pretty insignificant loss for a very significant gain. Any suggestions or feedback is welcome.

I'm not sure which rune arm I'll be using. I've got Corruption of Nature and have been loving it. It is a definite improvement over Lucid Dreams/Archaic Device. I plan to acquire all 3 from Tor and the Glass Cannon from Cove to try them all out and see how effective they each are. I will update when I have more info on these.

Thanks in advance for any feedback on gear.
02-26-2013, 12:34 PM
QuantumFX

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Dragon (implement spell power18/potency76/SF mastery/stealth strike)

Start getting red slots on your crossbows and slot a force spell power crystal there. You can get your implement bonus that way and get your cloak slot back.
02-26-2013, 01:04 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by QuantumFX

Start getting red slots on your crossbows and slot a force spell power crystal there. You can get your implement bonus that way and get your cloak slot back.

I didn't realize that slotting spell power would also add the implement bonus. I realize it's based on the weapon's enhancement bonus but just assumed it had to be built into it already. That's good to know. Although I'd have a hard time not slotting good damage onto Needle to make it essentially an all-purpose weapon. Any suggestions for an alternative cloak?
02-26-2013, 01:42 PM
QuantumFX

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

I didn't realize that slotting spell power would also add the implement bonus. I realize it's based on the weapon's enhancement bonus but just assumed it had to be built into it already. That's good to know. Although I'd have a hard time not slotting good damage onto Needle to make it essentially an all-purpose weapon. Any suggestions for an alternative cloak?

I kind of like the Jeweled Cloak - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Jeweled_Cloak_(Level_24)

And the Ghost Waking Cloak - http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Ghost-W...oak_(Level_24)

And you always have the greensteel option as well.
02-26-2013, 04:27 PM
Nodoze

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

I've been planning a new gearset for Dubbell based on the gear from U17 ... Thanks in advance for any feedback on gear.

I am now 23 and made a ton of progress on the previous gear list just to have it outdated... Always something new to strive for I guess...

I am very interested in your take on the Glass Cannon. I like the way Lucid (and other "shot" arms actually hits what I have targeted verses having to use the reticle like a FPS). If "Exploding Shot" works like "Shot" and does AOE and is Force then I think that may end up being the best of all worlds...
02-26-2013, 05:27 PM
CThruTheEgo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodoze

I am now 23 and made a ton of progress on the previous gear list just to have it outdated... Always something new to strive for I guess...

LOL! I can empathize. I collected the final piece of gear that I wanted for Dubbell about 2 weeks ago, the Epic Silver Slinger (the drop rates for that chain SUCK!). So my sense of completion and accomplishment was very short-lived.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodoze

I am very interested in your take on the Glass Cannon. I like the way Lucid (and other "shot" arms actually hits what I have targeted verses having to use the reticle like a FPS). If "Exploding Shot" works like "Shot" and does AOE and is Force then I think that may end up being the best of all worlds...

I am anxious to try out the Glass Cannon as well. It looks basically like Strinati's Hand Cannon for higher levels. I used Strinati's when leveling and loved it. I am wondering if force enhancements will affect the fire damage on it also (the same way single enhancement lines affect all damage types on regular spells with multiple damage types). If that is the case then it will be a force based AoE rune arm, and I can't see much beating that.

I am most hopeful about the Glass Cannon, but I'd still like to try all the new rune arms. I just hope they are all effective, which would give arti's a variety of options instead of the two we have had to choose from so far.
02-26-2013, 05:43 PM
Nodoze

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

LOL! I can empathize. ...
I am anxious to try out the Glass Cannon as well. It looks basically like Strinati's Hand Cannon for higher levels. I used Strinati's when leveling and loved it. I am wondering if force enhancements will affect the fire damage on it also (the same way single enhancement lines affect all damage types on regular spells with multiple damage types). If that is the case then it will be a force based AoE rune arm, and I can't see much beating that.

I am most hopeful about the Glass Cannon, but I'd still like to try all the new rune arms. I just hope they are all effective, which would give arti's a variety of options instead of the two we have had to choose from so far.

I read a few threads that did the preview and Lamina and most also likened it to Strinati's (which I have never tried). Personally I really like the homing targeting of the Force rune arms and don't like the reticule method. I often solo with my pet and panther and having to use the reticule while casting heal scrolls isn't much fun but but I guess I will do what I got to do if it is much better... In groups I often need to cast Raise Dead or Heals so the current tab targeting with homing makes it easier to still be doing some damage.

It will be very interesting if the force line boosts both types of damage (like how some of the spells use the highest boost line for all types). One thing that concerned me was that I was reading something about reflex saves & evasion mobs avoiding all damage and that is very concerning in some areas as my Force arm is very reliable & I like not having to switch all the time...
02-26-2013, 08:15 PM
QuantumFX

Quote:

Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

So my sense of completion and accomplishment was very short-lived.

It’ll do better when you step into Fall of Truth.

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