Will you remove that silly cap on dodge?
I'm going to assume it was an ad-hoc mechanism thrown in there while you had time to fix the ocean stance bug. Am I wrong?
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Will you remove that silly cap on dodge?
I'm going to assume it was an ad-hoc mechanism thrown in there while you had time to fix the ocean stance bug. Am I wrong?
The limit for dodge is intended to stay. We may add abilities that allow you to increase this limit for certain character builds.
I must have missed it, what is the dodge % cap?
25%Quote:
Originally Posted by trillea
Something really needs to be done for unarmored monk-splashed builds. It's not very fair that they should have to devote most of their gear slots, feats, and destiny/twists just to get half the damage avoidance of a generic fighter with a nice set of fullplate and shield, and little if any damage mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
http://standupforamerica.files.wordp...begninning.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
I have to ask, "Why?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
It's fairly difficult to get to the cap as it is, and getting beyond the cap requires a fairly significant devotion via feats, enhancements, class and destiny choices, and items, which makes it difficult to also achieve a high AC or PRR. That light- and no-armor wearers have had their AC potential reduced further emphasizes, to my mind, the unnecessary implementation of a Dodge cap.
My guess is that they don't want people to come up with builds of punks with > 25% (50%?) dodge; in combo with AC that can only be hit half of the time and put on displacement/blurry/ghostly items to make them almost cannot be hit by monsters.Quote:
Originally Posted by sephiroth1084
hit chance in that scenario would be = 0.5 * 0.5 * 0.5 * 0.9 ~= 11%
Tell ya what, keep the dodge cap but let me dodge spells and effects and we'll call it even :D
*Drow sorcerer casts finger of death*
DODGE!
Fair enough . . . would it be too much to ask that certain buffs . . . say a bard's Inspire Heroics (which is woefully weak right now) not be subject to that cap?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Don't suppose PRR is getting capped at 50 (25.67% mititgation) to make this fair for cloth armor...
Didn't think so.
In all seriousness, for me its not an issue. Because IMO dodge comes in such little amounts that its not worth investing feats or item slots. After you factor a 4% dodge item down by the AC/Incorporal/Shadow Fade/PRR./blur/displacement, the contribution to overall damage mitigation is not worth spending a slot/feat/twist on it.
Yes 25% dodge looks like a good number, and it would be if it came from two items that are also solid on their own like PRR does. At a cost of appproximately 3 feats and 3 or 4 equipment slots it is just to expensive. Moar DPS or improved crowd control from each of those feats or slots is likely to mitigate more damage than even a 4% dodge effect.
Which is still more than double what the theoretical minimum hit chance was before the update - which was 5%. Also, how is 11% almost unhittable? That's still more than 1 hit out of every 10 attempts. Or 11 hits out of every 100. Or 110 hits out of every 1000!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrande
25% Dodge as a BUG
Which will be fixed...
MUCH MUCH sooner than Broken Monk Die Step Increases.
Considering the dodge cap for cloth armor is higher than all heavy armor builds have access to your suggestion is a bit unreasonable. In addition most heavy armor wearers(i.e. dps that dont having fighter/dwarven armor mastery + mobility + SD max dex boosts) will be capped around approximately 1/4(1-7% vs. 25%) of the dodge that cloth armor builds can have.Quote:
Originally Posted by TPICKRELL
Cloth wearing monk based builds can get well more than the 25.67% mitigation from PRR that you are requesting with a PRR of 50 using current items/enhancements/etc. I did a number breakdown on the beta forums that shows that DARK PATH TANK MONKS have almost exactly the same mitigation as full sd3 heavy armor + tower shield builds from dodge+PRR+PrE features. The ability to get PRR is there, some people are just unwilling to make any effort and feel that monks should somehow exceed the defenses of other classes in a dps build.
If you feel like going through the post, its a long one, you can find it here.
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=93
Total breakdown of available PRR for anyone that wants to whine that monks are somehow shortchanged in overall mitigation. Nobody has been able to refute the numbers there, nor show afterwards how monks are in any way shortchanged by the dex cap.
Now if you don't want to build that way its your choice, but it seems odd to complain that the options aren't there for monks when they clearly are.
That right there pretty much sums up a lot of reasons I doubt I will be coming back to the game or ever paying again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
I have a pretty healthy chunk of light armor builds, along with my favorite monk dex/wis build. "Wear heavy armor, or else take a lot more damage than before"
I have rebuilt too many characters over the years, and I am done with it. 6 years of watching game mechanics getting broken for no good reason and then the inevitable, and predictable, problems, power creeps, and various 'halo' effects of doing things wrong and taking years to barely fix them have finally left a bad taste in the mouth.
Die steps aren't broken. They were fixed to work with the new [W]Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralthyrtiaq
Right! All we have to do is splash barbarian!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Let us do that and we'll call it even :)
That post is not a monk - it shows a 12 ftr/ with monk splash, and a couple very specific dark/earth paths that in no way do a single thing for the class as a whole, or anyone else in light armor who is not a ftr/darkmonk/earth stance build.Quote:
Originally Posted by orakio
In other words - completely meaningless for the argument in question.
I wasn't really making a suggestion, just making a point that PRR and Dodge are not equivalent and given a choice for my cloth armor types I consider PRR to be vastly superior.Quote:
Originally Posted by orakio
I'm not asking for or suggesting a nerf to PRR, just making a point.
I read you article when you first posted it and I agree with you that a TANK build monk can achieve close enough damage mitigation to be competitive with a TANK build FIGHTER.
My problem with dodge is not for a tank, but rather for your general purpose DPS/mitigation monk where Dodge is not very effective.
The post is a 12monk/6fighter/2 whatever AND includes the PRR values for a 20 monk directly below it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Riggs
Try again.
The point that you are missing is that BECAUSE those options are there for monks, and increased inherent defenses would cause them to exceed the mitigation that full blown non-evasion tank builds get which causes a whole seperate sort of balance issues. Any increases to monk as a baseline would likely have to come with tradeoffs to their top end mitigation as it is extremely competetive with fighter tanks and exceeding that of paladin tanks.
Your average dps in heavy armor is comparing ~16.4% mitigation from PRR versus 2-6% inherent dodge that monk based cloth wearing builds have. With a typical heavy armor dodge cap maxing at 7% (and more likely being 1-3%) the monk will need 10.6%(in the event of 1% MDB cap on the heavy armor)-21% mitigation from either stance or item selection to exceed it. Dodge is harder to get than PRR but you can utilize 1/2 of your stances to immediatley provide that mitigation difference(water or earth), or if you use ninjaspy I PrE(your primary dps PrE anyway) you can exceed it with no additional investment at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by TPICKRELL
The problem is the inherent versaitility of the monk class creates a ton of situation that are possible, but you don't need anywhere close to unreasonable investments in regards to feats/enhancements/gear to have more than acceptable mitigation compared to heavy armor.
And EVEN discounting that I can tell you many people would love the option to trade heavy armor proficiency on some of their dps classes for the imp evasion class feature. The discussion of mitigation is so much more complex than "cloth doesn't give PRR and heavy armor does".
I guess it hinges on what you consider to be reasonable or unreasonable investments.Quote:
Originally Posted by orakio
Heavy Armor inherently gives a fighter aprox (6+BAB) 26 PRR which is about 14% damage mitigation. The armor still has all of its effects to contribute to the gear set.
In order to get to 14% mitigation from equipment my monks would have to use 4+4+3+3 = 4 item slots. It takes 3 very hard to fill item slots dodge 4+3+3 to get dodge to be equivalent to the incorporal effect of a ghostly item. In my eyes that's way out of balance.
I have no problem with PRR, I have no problem with armor wearers getting decent damage mitigation. They need it and should have had it all along.
My point is that Dodge needs to be adjusted so that it is a reasonable mitigation route while still fitting into a reasonable gear set and feat allocation.
As soon as I find a way to get above 25% dodge without gimping a toon I might care more that there's a limit, but honestly the "gimp factor" serves as enough of a soft limit that we really should need one.
if you want to blow all your Twists and multiple gear slots on dodge where is the harm? There's a pretty big DPS loss that's the trade-off.
You need 2 item slots versus their 1. 6% inherent dodge so 2 4% items would cover you. Or 1 4% item and dodge feat for dark path. Or 1 4% item and any number of the ED's abilities that give 3% dodge.Quote:
Originally Posted by TPICKRELL
Could SOME things use a review of dodge provided... absolutely. Chattering ring for example has lost almost all of its use as an item imo. But any increases to dodge value don't need to be from increased dodge cap, or as inherent parts of the monk class, they should be analyzed on items and feats... things that are accessible to everyone.
The other thing is, believe it or not, full 20 monks have more AC before dex than heavy armor non-shield builds still assuming fairly reasonable initial stats and using new items.
14base wisdom+8item+2tome+2 shipbuff+2enhancement(4 with capstone) = 28 wis for +9 wis bonus to AC.
+9 armor item, +9wis to AC, +15 monk = 33 total AC.
Roughly a few points more than a mlevel 25 heavy plate as I believe those cap at +31 or +32 AC.
The tradeoff for cloth armor is IF you don't invest in the physical mitigation then your physical mitigation and hp is slightly lower and you have increased magical mitigation (hey evasion/imp evasion/best save progression in game). If you make the effort though with cloth you get the magical mitigation of light/cloth armor with better AC than a heavy non-shield and the PRR of a full SD3+ tower shield. Oh yeah, also best healing amp in the game as a melee.
Agreed. EXCEPT that I think you end up with WORSE DAMAGE MITIGATION. If you can twist in something like +6 stunning DC from Legendary or extra damage from Fury of the wild sense weakness... A stunning monk will kill the mob at least 10-15% faster from that single effect and avoid a lot more damage than 4% dodge could possibly give you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ape_Man
That's kind of my whole problem here, I get more damage mitigation by putting everything into my DPS output than I do by putting it into dodge.
It's time to go home, so I'm going to stop debating the details, as I'm pretty much aligned with this paragraph from your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by orakio
I made the PRR = 50 comment to make a point that this is now yet another way in which dodge is inferior to PRR. I don't care about the 25% cap, its symbolic at best. And I've never asked for more monk inherent mitigation.
All I've asked for is that dodge from items/twists/feats be rebalanced so that they have a reasonable damage mitigation for the investment they require. For my toons, 4 Dodge in the old AC system is way more valualbe than 4% dodge in the new system. And I agree chattering rings and iceys were premier damage mitigation items a couple of weeks ago and they are complete vendor trash today.
Wish granted! It's called Fury of the Wild, and it is awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by elg582
so why keep monks? Why not just replace them with sword sage from the book of 9 swords? You guys obviously don't want people to play monks and sword sages would solve EVERY problem monk has right now. Light armor + wis bonus to ac + cool little ki like special strikes, this would make every one happy + you can eliminate handwraps (ergo the bugs surrounding them.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Moral of the story, there is absolutely no reason to make one class vastly inferior to it's peers as a melee..let alone the gap between melee and caster.
OK, so my tank monk (12 monk/7 fighter/1 rogue), that used to have superior damage mitigation to make up for having fewer hp, can now match a fighter's damage mitigation (although I would like to see the numbers on a dwarf fighter's dodge + ac + incorporeal + blur + PRR; I can't see how any monk-splash build could touch that), if I give up all pretense of dealing damage which, since intimidate is not a monk skill, rules out actually being able to tank. Or dps. Or buff the party.
I suppose that I can sit in the back and use the /cheer emote; can we get an ability that lets us buff others that way? Maybe put some pom-poms and miniskirts in the store...
My Dervish of Death, can mix it up against casters with evasion, OR chuck on his best heavy armor for bonus AC and PRR if mainly a melee fight.
My standard dodge (just from bonus feats) is 7% -Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack
which i can easily fit on 1/2 plate with a tower shield (though i'm currently using a heavy with better DR and AC and lower ASF) should be able to fit 10-15%.
In my light armor (Parasitic breastplate with +10 REF crafted) i have great evasion but lose a tiny bit of AC and a chunk of PRR.
I have 1/2 rank umd so can easily use displace scrolls
Honestly i think the dodge cap should be lifted for monks if someone wanted to invest so hard into dodge they should be rewarded not capped. As it is rogues and barbs can easily reach same dodge levels as a monk and can do it in light armor with higher PRR.
I wrote a wall of text here. Then the browser ate it. My monk is 23/5, rocking everything she encounters, and plays fine. I don't know why your experiences have been so negative.
Can anyone confirm if the dodge cap applies to temporary boosts as well at static items and feats?
On my rogue with 14% base dodge, when I activate Improved Uncanny am I actually getting 64% or am I just getting boosted up to the cap of 25%?
Temporary effects like A Scattering of Petals and (Improved) Uncanny Dodge clicky go above the cap.
Does it give you uncanny dodge?Quote:
Originally Posted by whomhead
To me it seems that having an arbitrary cap is meaningless and does nothing but aggravate the customers (the players).
First, what is the point? If someone wants to devote their entire build to being a Dodge Tank, let them! This is based off D&D, right? Don't be that Nazi GM that says "no" to a build because you think it's OP. If someone can invent a better mousetrap, you should let them try it. Otherwise you end up with disgruntled players utilizing cookie-cutter builds and they don't try to reach for the stars. Just like has been discussed, it is possible to have the PRR and Dodge build, so why not just have the dodge build? Is it so terrible that someone creates a toon that is missed 60-70% of the time?
Second, what is missing from this conversation is the combination factor of AC + Dodge. Monks, with a high wisdom, are going to have a high AC. My AC right now on my 15 Cleric / 3 Monk is 43, a 39% miss chance, and I'm wearing a level 16 Frozen Tunic. Add in the 8% I'm supposed to get (as opposed to the 17% I'm getting now), I have a base "miss" chance of 47%. That's still getting missed half the time. Granted, I don't have PRR, but being missed half the time isn't a bad thing.
Third, what was the rationale for denying PRR to armor bonuses from cloth again? I mean, if heavy armor grants it because of the sheer bulk associated with the item (which makes sense), why wouldn't the force protection of magic items/mage armor bleed off even a little bit? When enemies are sneak-attacking you for 220 points of damage at level 18 (yes, I've been hit by that -- thanks Turbine for Fort Bypass), even 8% is 18 hp saved. I also don't understand why natural armor doesn't come into play, either. I know that with dodge, you need to maintain the balance, but wearing no "armor" seems like a slap in the face.
What about magical effects? Things like "Entropic Shield" should be there to assist against ranged snipes, and luck bonus should add to dodge (heck, you're lucky!). Why are these excluded?
I know the general intent behind dodge was to give wizards/sorcs some sort of defense against enemy attack, but they inadvertently hurt pure monk builds. I think that not only should there be no cap, but you should allow other items and spells should add where they currently don't.
The cap is understandable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
However, can we get a response on how having the dodge bonuses from Ocean Stance (and its GotF bonus) apply to the cap (rather than exceed it) makes Ocean Stance absolutely worthless, with Earth Stance being able to EASILY reach the low cap, while offering better health, armor class, and PRR?
Ok so I was skimming and swapped the 12 ftr for 12 monk.Quote:
Originally Posted by orakio
Either way - it is a multiclass with fighter levels. Not a pure monk, not a light monk (unless you are saying there should not be light monks?), and only earth stance allowed. Forget air/fire/water.
once again - one specific multiclass using only a very specific build does absolutely nothing for the class as a whole - or anyone else wearing cloth even that used to have a dex/wis AC build.
So still - invalid.
The scenario..Quote:
Originally Posted by dredre9987
Level 20 Monk 3.5[x]
Earth + JT .5[x]
Active Monk PL .5[x]
First Tier GMoF .5[x]
at 1d6 +30 I should be seeing top main damage numbers of 5*6 +30 = 60
The most I am seeing is 54
Something is not working properly....
Can we have dodge back to AC? The dex based toons are destroyed by this update. not only did the to hit calc's change, but we lost our dodge ac bonus as well. my 80+ ac ranger dropped and even wearing armor can't get close to where i was, much less the higher ac needed now with the to hit change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Your forcing everyone to go str builds and we want variety!
Active Monk Past Life is not working at the moment, I believe. Nor is Jidz'tetka, to my knowledge. Old diesteps are currently broken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feralthyrtiaq
Seems a little odd that a fighter in light armor (which provides significant AC and PRR) can obtain the same dodge as a monk in robes (which provides negligible AC and no PRR). Hopefully monks will be included in their next visit to this issue and provided with some means of having a balanced defense.
I wouldn't call 9 AC negligible by any stretch. Picking up the Sun Soul robes (I had no armored bonus item before u14) gave me a 7 or 8% bump in defense. I really don't understand people's problems with survivability of monks at the moment. Mine has (had, TRed to continue completionist run, returning to monk as final life) no issues whatsoever with risk of death, and I didn't even have shadowfade (just mabar cloak) or a blurry item.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chette
I asked every monk I grouped with if they felt more or less survivable. The only ones who said less were geared to the teeth, only-hit-on-a-20 characters in U13. Funny thing is, these characters were still hit on a 2 in almost all of the content that was relevant to them (old epics). Even the H-Orc Strength-focused monks I had played with told me they felt much more survivable now than they did pre-U14. 'I went from being hit on a 2 to avoiding 40+% of attacks!' was a very common theme amongst people actually playing the game instead of complaining on the forums.
my monk now has a spell resistance of 45,Quote:
Originally Posted by riexau
I don't even need to "dodge" spells :)
btw I tested switching between fire stance (8% dodge with my gear) and the bugged water stance (25% dodge)
and I can't really tell the difference in gameplay. I only can say that my survivability is pretty good in both cases.
that is on a grandmaster 5 with about 70 AC (~50% to be hit), blur and ghostly.
so from my personal experience I don't really care about the dodge cap...
While I don't think there should be a dodge cap (it really is dumb, especially as you mention a fighter with the right twists and AP can get the same in Leather as they can in cloth) I can't say I've seen monks (especially not Earth-Stance ones, and who isn't Earth-stance these days?) being defensively behind the other classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chette
There's a ton of defense out there if you twist right and take the right ED. Even the PRR can get to the diminishing returns point.
Built right monks are still the god-class Turbine intends them to be. Splashes on the other hand . . .
Once your AC gets about the 50% miss mark those points of dodge pay off more than they do as AC . . . and if your AC isn't in the ballpark needed to play they still pay off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thar
One of my toons was an 80ish AC "ranger" who is now about a 65 self-buffed and I can't say I feel defensively gimped at all.
You just cannot put all your eggs in the AC-basket for defense. 20+% dodge (In the Weeds FTW - such a shame twisting it is almost impossible because it's home ED is terrible), 10% incorporeal, and 20% blur result is a lot of misses. To test I went into Sins of Attrition on hard and I could literally stand with a zillion devils around me like I could at 70ish AC before U14. Could I do that on Elite? no, but I couldn't do that before do to the grazing hits tearing me apart.
And we actually have SOME defense now in epics where we had not before unless you were a 6 STR halfling that couldn't hurt a fly. Overall it's actually gotten better, it's just different.
Definitely get something that gives you 10% incorporeal . . . ring of the stalker or Epic Cloak of night. Keep yourself blurred, keep your dodge up, get some displacement clickies for long fights and UMD the scrolls for short ones.
If you're 10% incorporeal, 20% dodge, and displacement you have a 66% "miss" even if they'd "hit" you on a 2 (which they won't because all AC will get you some misses except if you're a babarian as the game is hard-coded that they get hit 95% of the time). it's why the spell was nerfed to self-only.
Ans since you mentioned you're a ranger if you don't already have these take advantage of those two additional feats and pick up Quicken and Maximize. You can get away with a stupid amount of wreckless behavior if you have those two feats :)
Things are just different now, no other way to put it. With that said the dodge cap is still silly and should be re-thought.