with the new feat changes, free up completionist already!

As I'm sitting here contemplating these feats, specifically the massive 5 feats required to get whirlwind, I'm repeatedly bumping into that completionist feat. For crying out loud, can you guys just free up that thing? Its such a nuisance, now that I'm contemplating fitting in all these new feats, or just flat out switching classes. In either case, this feat is causing a constant problem.

As powerful as all of our new abilities are, the completionist feat dwindles in comparison. If you devs are so keen on rewarding your dedicated players, this is the way to do it.

Thanks in advance.

Given that it now takes a minimum of 13 lives to gain, and it has such a minor boost relative to the effort to get, I agree. Give those willing to go that far a bone, especially since many end on feat starved classes. Give Completionist for free.

/signed

I think it should be an automatic feat.

It would be easier to turn off when the players no longer qualify since we wouldn't have to see Fred.

There are also quite a few classes to have to go through at least once, with probably more to come.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Durnak

As I'm sitting here contemplating these feats, specifically the massive 5 feats required to get whirlwind, I'm repeatedly bumping into that completionist feat. For crying out loud, can you guys just free up that thing? Its such a nuisance, now that I'm contemplating fitting in all these new feats, or just flat out switching classes. In either case, this feat is causing a constant problem.

As powerful as all of our new abilities are, the completionist feat dwindles in comparison. If you devs are so keen on rewarding your dedicated players, this is the way to do it.

Thanks in advance.

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Even though I find the grind through even a few back to back TR boring and repetative (as I am sure some of the TR crew find end game) They have slogged through it and deserve to get it for free and should have from the start.

/signed -couldn't agree more.

oh what the hell
/signed :p

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Originally Posted by Jay203

oh what the hell
/signed :p

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I'd go even further tbh and make ONE Active Past Life Free at character creation each life {after the first of course}

1st TR - Active Past life = FREE
2nd TR - Choose between Active Past Lives
3rd TR - Umpteenth TR - Choose Between Active Past Lives
Completionist - Lose Active Past Life for Completionist OR Keep Choice of Active Past Life - It's up to you.

/signed and i hate sign threads

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

I'd go even further tbh and make ONE Active Past Life Free at character creation each life {after the first of course}

1st TR - Active Past life = FREE
2nd TR - Choose between Active Past Lives
3rd TR - Umpteenth TR - Choose Between Active Past Lives
Completionist - Lose Active Past Life for Completionist OR Keep Choice of Active Past Life - It's up to you.

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nah, no need for that
just the freebie completionist is enough :D:D:D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

I'd go even further tbh and make ONE Active Past Life Free at character creation each life {after the first of course}

1st TR - Active Past life = FREE
2nd TR - Choose between Active Past Lives
3rd TR - Umpteenth TR - Choose Between Active Past Lives
Completionist - Lose Active Past Life for Completionist OR Keep Choice of Active Past Life - It's up to you.

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Thats an interesting suggestion.

As I'm thinking about it, it would provide quite a bit of extra flavor to characters if we'd have a bonus feat slot solely for a single free active past life feat (which includes completionist). This would benefit EVERYONE, not just completionist folks.

I actually really like this idea, nicely done! +1

A free active past life (and/or completionist) would be great. I've never been a fan of how completionist is a pretty meh feat for feat starved builds, at best slightly better than the next best option (say on a non-human pure paladin).

I feel like this is a thread for people who already have Completionist. 14ish epic feats without any cost, to the current life of the character, sounds like some major power creep. The feat itself is balanced because of the massive grind it takes, and the fact that it still costs a feat. We don't need more power creep in this game.

Sorry, /notsigned

V

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

I'd go even further tbh and make ONE Active Past Life Free at character creation each life {after the first of course}

1st TR - Active Past life = FREE
2nd TR - Choose between Active Past Lives
3rd TR - Umpteenth TR - Choose Between Active Past Lives
Completionist - Lose Active Past Life for Completionist OR Keep Choice of Active Past Life - It's up to you.

---

This would be fantastic, /signed :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masadique

I feel like this is a thread for people who already have Completionist. 14ish epic feats without any cost, to the current life of the character, sounds like some major power creep. The feat itself is balanced because of the massive grind it takes, and the fact that it still costs a feat. We don't need more power creep in this game.

Sorry, /notsigned

V

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a free completionist feat does not help the power creep as much as the out-of-control stacking increases in stats or damages we have now

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masadique

I feel like this is a thread for people who already have Completionist. 14ish epic feats without any cost, to the current life of the character, sounds like some major power creep. The feat itself is balanced because of the massive grind it takes, and the fact that it still costs a feat. We don't need more power creep in this game.

Sorry, /notsigned

V

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Actually, all my TRs are only on their second lives, though my Fighter was going to go to Rogue, until work scheduling changed those plans. One will go to Druid, and one to Wizard possibly, depending on expansion, but I will likely never get a completionist.

It's balanced by being a massive grind, the feat tax is unnecessary. +1 to hit and damage, +1 DC, 20hp, +1 to all saves, while powerful, isn't as good across the board as more specialized feats, and amounts to very little in the grand scheme of things. The same character has vast amounts of power from their gear and passive past lives that more than outstrip that.

In fact, you get pretty much the same benefits, more or less, simply by having 13 completed lives. More if you go 3 lives on everything but Druid, which has a past life so bad that you lose power every time you stack it.

I feel Completionist should be passive free feat, bestowed automatically for each TR, but granting +1 to stats/skills each 5 or 6 classes done. This way, its not only free, but when new class is added, people will not have to curse Turbine because they must grind out new class, whats more, with a smaller reward for in-between, there would be more people willing to try, and maybe even buying hearts from the store ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masadique

I feel like this is a thread for people who already have Completionist. 14ish epic feats without any cost, to the current life of the character, sounds like some major power creep. The feat itself is balanced because of the massive grind it takes, and the fact that it still costs a feat. We don't need more power creep in this game.

Sorry, /notsigned

V

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I'm curious about the part where you wrote "...14ish epic feats without any cost, to the current life of a character, sounds like some major power creep..."

I suspect that maybe there's some confusion with regard to what I'm asking, and what folks are /signing on. I apologize if I understood you incorrectly, but:

I'm not asking for 14 feats "without any cost," I'm merely asking for the most time intensive accomplishment currently in effect to become a non-conflicting attribute with respect to character planning.

Giving a +1 bonus modifer to each stat and 3 across your skills is not going to be responsible for any real power creep. The to-hit benefit is completely insignificant with respect to the new combat changes, and the extra damage and 1 DC provided by +2 str isn't game breaking. The 1 extra DC they grant casters seems trivial compared to the +8 stats, and rather huge potential provided by destiny's, the extra build point at level 24, major necro focus item, and whatever other raid items that may contribute even further.

The stats don't qualify for base stat requirements as far as feats are concerned either.

In the end, the game mechanics are changing so radically, that the original class that you built around the completionist feat may no longer be your preferred class after these changes become implemented. But, how can you pursue your more desired class if the completionist feat causes a conflict in that new classes feat selection? Would you just discard 13 lives worth of work and decide to just not pick it up?

I would think that the previous posters suggestion of allowing a bonus feat slot to exist on every TR'ed character that would accept a single Active past life feat (with completionist falling into that category) allows every player to benefit, not just the ones who gained the completionist feat. Feat starved classes earn an extra bit of elbow room with teh barbarian past life for instance, so they can qualify for toughness easier- although toughness would still grant 8 or so hitpoints more if it was purchased the traditional way. I think it would be pretty balanced and fun for everyone alike.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay203

a free completionist feat does not help the power creep as much as the out-of-control stacking increases in stats or damages we have now

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It is a stacking stat/damage feat...

I won't throw a fit if Completionists get this for free. They deserve it after all the lives they put in. I did try to think of a feat that is better than +1 attack/damage, +2 stats, and +1 saves. None really came to mind.

As I said, I don't think this is necessary, but it also won't matter to me if it were to become free. I suppose I am just against freebies, I know this is not "free" in the sense that it is easy to acquire, and increasing power in general.

V

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masadique

It is a stacking stat/damage feat...

I won't throw a fit if Completionists get this for free. They deserve it after all the lives they put in. I did try to think of a feat that is better than +1 attack/damage, +2 stats, and +1 saves. None really came to mind.

As I said, I don't think this is necessary, but it also won't matter to me if it were to become free. I suppose I am just against freebies, I know this is not "free" in the sense that it is easy to acquire, and increasing power in general.

V

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well, completionist is +2 all stats and skills
which is essentially +1 damage, +1 attack, +1 all saves, and +3 all skills
if it was granted as a freebie, that means it can count towards stat requirements for feats and enhancements <3
that much i like :p
as for the free active past life feats, i feel that's going overboard =\

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jay203

well, completionist is +2 all stats and skills
which is essentially +1 damage, +1 attack, +1 all saves, and +3 all skills
if it was granted as a freebie, that means it can count towards stat requirements for feats and enhancements <3
that much i like :p
as for the free active past life feats, i feel that's going overboard =\

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I think I can see a problem with it counting toward stat requirements. That essentially saves characters build points for TWF feats and epic feats, which opens up a can of worms that I would personally rather leave alone.

All i ask is to eliminate its position as an obstacle to changing your character, Which is why placing it in a separate feat slot would still maintain its separation from any sort of stat requirement relations.

It's more than that.

Its +1 DC's ALL spells (this alone is unbalancing).

+1 hit/+1 dmg
+1 all combat DC's
+1 all skill checks
+1 skill point/lvl extra
+1 all saves
+20 HP
+~20 or so SP

To achieve the equivalent in passive/active past lives you would need:
1 fighter PL
1 monk PL
2 barb PL's
1 cleric or sorc PL
1 wizard ACTIVE PL
1 arti PL (+1 UMD),
even with this you would be short by the +1 to all saves and +1 to the rest of your skill checks.

Pshhhh....my personal opinion is if your willing to grind out that many lives you deserve it free.

I'll soon be going onto my fourth and final life...all four as a PM and the only only only reason at all I am doing the 4th life is because I made it to 16 my current 3rd life without getting ninja stoned and I will get 8 free levels......the ones I really get bored with easily....for free next life.

I would never go through having to have the optimal gear needed, the inventory madness.....etc....you would have to go through to level 13 classes....not to mention grind out legendary experience that many times.

No TY....I have been playing this game 5 years as it is and there are a lot of quests I just simply can't take anymore....like literally this game often puts me in a sedated state as soon as I login because I know things can get unstimulating really fast LOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crazydamage

Its +1 DC's ALL spells (this alone is unbalancing).

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You realize that ONE past-life does that exact same thing as an active feat already? Right now, especially after the expansion, completionist needs a bit of help considering it's the hardest feat in the game to get... totally /signed for making it passive (as someone who will probably never have a completionist).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crazydamage

It's more than that.

Its +1 DC's ALL spells (this alone is unbalancing).

+1 hit/+1 dmg
+1 all combat DC's
+1 all skill checks
+1 skill point/lvl extra
+1 all saves
+20 HP
+~20 or so SP

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Actually, it doesn't give you extra skill points, much like int enhancements don't give you extra skill points. Also, half of those bonuses are useless for casters and vice versa for melee. Most of those bonuses are marginal: +1 skill check isn't going to break any character.

On the dawn of my 40th TR, I've come to realize even with the effort (more like patience really, the effort level required to play a video game is pretty low) completionist takes giving away as a free feat is too much. I used to be in the give it away for free camp but seeing the expansion feats & destinies has changed my mind.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Durnak

Thats an interesting suggestion.

As I'm thinking about it, it would provide quite a bit of extra flavor to characters if we'd have a bonus feat slot solely for a single free active past life feat (which includes completionist). This would benefit EVERYONE, not just completionist folks.

I actually really like this idea, nicely done! +1

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Yes, this has been suggested in another thread somewhere ages ago.

I agreed with it then. Agree with it now - still a great idea! :)

1 Free Past Life Feat Slot for all TRs! :D

/not signed

If you were going to change it at all I think it should work just like all past life feats, I think it should be 1 part passive, 1 part taken.

Skills boost passive, Stats part active. +2 all stats and all that comes with it should not be a gimmie for the growing number of players who have accomplished this feat, it is balanced by having to choose.

With that said, I think that certain pre-reqs (both for enhancements and feats) are too limiting feat wise but the devs know this and are taking steps to fix this in the enhancement pass.

Plus, we just got two more feat slots in the expansion anyway.


On a side note: I do think that completionists should get 1 more pixel taller and have a golden glow as opposed to the blue one of standard TR.

/signed.

No one deserve to be treat like this after spendind all his/her youth TR... :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by crazydamage

Its +1 DC's ALL spells (this alone is unbalancing).

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With a DC cap of around ~45 on live (not counting cookies, store pots, house d pots, and DCs that benefit from passive pastlives like sorc/clr), it's pretty powerful, although hardly unbalancing (compare to wiz PL active or sorc/cleric PL passive).

Now consider the balooning DCs we'll get with EDs, +1 here or there doesn't really seem that big of a deal any more.

I'm in favour of this idea. I have never personally having TR'd even once, but I have aspirations. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Durnak

I think I can see a problem with it counting toward stat requirements. That essentially saves characters build points for TWF feats and epic feats, which opens up a can of worms that I would personally rather leave alone.

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Not to mention existing characters suddenly having invalid feat choices when a new class is released...

/signed by a completionist.

i considered going for completionist. in the end, i decided against it due to playing a feat starved class(paladin). honestly, i decided it would be more beneficial to me to take a more focused approach. (3 pal, 3 fighter, 3 barb lives with a couple others mixed in) than to bother with the completionist. however, if the feat was free and would not interfere with my building, i could see completionist as a desirable feat.

and yes, that is a LOT of work and it should not cost a feat slot. so...


/signed

I am nowhere near having completionist and I support this idea and I dont think I will ever get there.

I do not now nor ever will I have a completionist and I feel this so be a free feat for those who are crazy enough to have earned it.

/make it so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

I'd go even further tbh and make ONE Active Past Life Free at character creation each life {after the first of course}

1st TR - Active Past life = FREE
2nd TR - Choose between Active Past Lives
3rd TR - Umpteenth TR - Choose Between Active Past Lives
Completionist - Lose Active Past Life for Completionist OR Keep Choice of Active Past Life - It's up to you.

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At first look I was against it but after thinking it through it seems to be a good idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Masadique

I feel like this is a thread for people who already have Completionist. 14ish epic feats without any cost, to the current life of the character, sounds like some major power creep. The feat itself is balanced because of the massive grind it takes, and the fact that it still costs a feat. We don't need more power creep in this game.

Sorry, /notsigned

V

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I am only on my 5th live on my main tr and doubt I will ever finish and I think its a good idea and I dont think it really adds much if anything to the power creep

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FranOhmsford

I'd go even further tbh and make ONE Active Past Life Free at character creation each life {after the first of course}

1st TR - Active Past life = FREE
2nd TR - Choose between Active Past Lives
3rd TR - Umpteenth TR - Choose Between Active Past Lives
Completionist - Lose Active Past Life for Completionist OR Keep Choice of Active Past Life - It's up to you.

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This would be a bit too easy.
1st gives 34pt build
2nd gives 36 point build

I prefer my my post in another thread long gone silent....

1st Completionist-Free Completionist Feat (13+lives)
2nd Completionist-Free Active Past Life Feat (26+lives)
3rd Completionist-Free open Feat (39+lives)

Theres motivation for 3x Completionist.
Everyone who thought they were done with 15 TR's would now be eyeing up the supergrind (except Star he is already super uber).


Completionist should have granted the completionist feat for free, it really puts a hardship on tight feat classes, forcing many to splash monk/fighter so they can get the extra feat into their builds.

Disagree, with all of it.

/signed
completionist free passive past life

/signed

absolutly ok,im barbarian in "final" life and personaly i have some problem for put completionist in my build,this is a problem that I have for some time.sorry my english i hope it's understundable what i mean.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by acrone

/signed

absolutly ok,im barbarian in "final" life and personaly i have some problem for put completionist in my build,this is a problem that I have for some time.sorry my english i hope it's understundable what i mean.

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yes, barbarians and rogues have serious problems to put this feat

I would like to see something like this:

Add pastlife feats for races.
When you are TRing, you choose to have the Race or Class count (only one), and if you are already 3 in one, you get the other one automaticaly.

When you have done each class once you get free feat: + 1 stats
On each Twice, free feat: + 1 skills
On each Thrice, free feat: + 1 stats

When you have done each race once you get a free feat: + 1 saves
On each Twice, free feat: + 1 skills
On each Thrice, free feat: + 1 saves

This will get peeps to buy races that they don't use.
More likely for peeps to TR (increasing some sales of True Hearts)

We get new passive and active Race past life feats.

Fun All Around, and a reason to play FOREVER.

So Total, for completely all (not counting the individual ones) is +2 Stats, +2 Skills, +2 Saves, as free feats.

As much as I love the idea of one free past life feat, I think that wizard and barbarian PL are probably a bit too good to give away free. It's too bad they did such a shoddy job with some of the PL (active and passive), a few are borderline too good (NOT asking for a nerf, that would be terrible), while others are pointless (I seem to collect the pointless ones :( ).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarnind

yes, barbarians and rogues have serious problems to put this feat

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try squeezing it in on a paladin. lol

/signed

by a completionist.

/signed

By someone whom will never have a completionist but its well deserved IMHO.

Apply the Completionist Boosts to Skills/Stats pre-character creation so they can count towards Feat qualification.

Especially with a 25 Base Required Wis for one of the Epic Monk Feats...and base 21 for others...

Would be a nice acknowledgment of the time and dedication of those who earned completionist and a worthier goal for those currently on the path.

As it stand right now in the face of Diminishing Returns...

Your RETURN at higher levels for your INVESTMENT is quickly DIMINISHING (but who can STILL be Uber in WW)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Feralthyrtiaq

Apply the Completionist Boosts to Skills/Stats pre-character creation so they can count towards Feat qualification.

Especially with a 25 Base Required Wis for one of the Epic Monk Feats...and base 21 for others...

Would be a nice acknowledgment of the time and dedication of those who earned completionist and a worthier goal for those currently on the path.

As it stand right now in the face of Diminishing Returns...

Your RETURN at higher levels for your INVESTMENT is quickly DIMINISHING (but who can STILL be Uber in WW)

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aye , completionist it does not work for the prerequisites of the feat

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

/signed

Do it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

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Agreed... it should not be free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

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With an insane pre req tied to # of lives, still should be auto granted feet similar to passive past life.

Think of the insane amount of Turbine Point$ spent by the less than 1% of population that meet the pre-req to get the feat, it should be the black American Express VIP treatment - Granted Feat. Or go one further to continue to drive sales and create the star package, on having 3 of all past lives then becomes auto grant until a new class is released.

I postulate with ED's you'll see less players TRing anywhere near as much anyway so the future impact would be negligible.

Synopsis:

Pros:
-Small impact in game dynamics to make the change
-Limited code updating equates to low over head from developer time.
-Positive PR value
-Carrot and Stick strategy drives more Turbine point purchases aka revenue making the "carrot" slightly more attractive could draw previously uninterested players toward attaining the goal.

Con:

Far less than 1% of the population that are already powerful with multiple past lives basically get the feat slot back enabling them to take 1 feat previously used for Completionist.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

---

While this is true, the problem is that there are feats that are semi-required for many characters because they have unique effects, and we have feat prerequisites for enhancements, PrEs and other feats to consider.

The result is that Completionists' final lives typically have at least a few levels of monk, fighter, ranger, artificer, or wizard in order to gain enough bonus feats to cover the essentials and still fit in Completionist. Bards, Barbarians, Clerics, Favored Souls, Paladins, Rogues and Sorcerers are all rather feat-strapped with things that are roughly necessary for their characters.

What if True Reincarnated characters were granted a bonus feat slot at level 3 that can only select a Past Life feat or Completionist?

This would make it easier to fit in the PL and Completionist feats on characters with few/no bonus feats, but wouldn't be free per se; if you have more than one class in past lives, you likely will have a few different options for sticking in there and will have a decision to make, but won't have to give up an important standard feat.

This is particularly beneficial for the poorer PL feats like Cleric, Favored Soul, Fighter and Ranger that simply aren't worth a feat slot for most characters.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

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And how many people do you expect to take those great ability feats? How many people take skill focus feats that aren't required for a PrE?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

What if True Reincarnated characters were granted a bonus feat slot at level 3 that can only select a Past Life feat or Completionist?

This would make it easier to fit in the PL and Completionist feats on characters with few/no bonus feats, but wouldn't be free per se; if you have more than one class in past lives, you likely will have a few different options for sticking in there and will have a decision to make, but won't have to give up an important standard feat.

This is particularly beneficial for the poorer PL feats like Cleric, Favored Soul, Fighter and Ranger that simply aren't worth a feat slot for most characters.

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nah, just make Completionist able to fulfill some feat/enhancement requirements and we're golden :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

While this is true, the problem is that there are feats that are semi-required for many characters because they have unique effects, and we have feat prerequisites for enhancements, PrEs and other feats to consider.

The result is that Completionists' final lives typically...

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Guess its the choices we have to make on the characters:
Get splashes with 2 feat rich class(es),
Be human for the extra feat,
or be pure and find another way from level 21, 24 and ED.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

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/Fail.
It is powerful, but is not a feat persay, It is an achievement... and should not be forced into a feat selection.

It still unduly punishes feat tight classes especially ones with expensive PRE's.
Paladin/Rogue/Ranger/Barbarians are often forced into splashing monk/Fighter to benefit from a hard earned XP Grind.

surely is a very strong talent, but it requires an extreme effort which would creating award-winning status as a talented free Completionist

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

What if True Reincarnated characters were granted a bonus feat slot at level 3 that can only select a Past Life feat or Completionist?

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-totaly agree.

agree whit JOTMON too

Maybe it should cost TP...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

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I'm sorry guys, but I have to...

Called it!

V :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

What if True Reincarnated characters were granted a bonus feat slot at level 3 that can only select a Past Life feat or Completionist?

This would make it easier to fit in the PL and Completionist feats on characters with few/no bonus feats, but wouldn't be free per se; if you have more than one class in past lives, you likely will have a few different options for sticking in there and will have a decision to make, but won't have to give up an important standard feat.

This is particularly beneficial for the poorer PL feats like Cleric, Favored Soul, Fighter and Ranger that simply aren't worth a feat slot for most characters.

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Maybe put this on the +3rd live to give players an incentive to TR more then once.

No matter how hard you work, they will always keep the rewards low so that newbies don't get their feelings hurt that your character is soooo much more powerful than theirs.

/signed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tyrande

Guess its the choices we have to make on the characters:
Get splashes with 2 feat rich class(es),
Be human for the extra feat,
or be pure and find another way from level 21, 24 and ED.

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For any of the other PL feats that sounds reasonable, but for Completionist, which takes a ****-load of time and effort, it seems rather ridiculous to me that you're kind of locked into certain builds and combinations.

/signed.

As a completionist myself I know very that it's truly unfair for some classes. On my wizard life it's not a problem I have an abundance of feats; on my sorc life it was significantly more difficult to juggle feats. Likewise for a fighter it would be a non-issue while on a barbarian not nearly as easy.

Besides, after 13+ lives: one feat that gives a bunch of goodies is well deserved. Over-powered or not, they earned it.

It's just that we don't all have the same number of feats which makes it unfair. Make it a free feat, please.

Maybe add a shrine to the airship amenities that is for completionists only and grants all the benefits of the feat, but with a one hour duration that lasts until death like every other shrine. That way, those that burn a feat get it permanently, but there would be an option for those that don't have the feat slots for it. Completionists are uber, they wouldn't die and lose it anyway. ;)

The main reason that the completionist feat should be free is simply because the classes were not all created equal in terms of feat requirements and access to feats. \

Assuming that all melee characters have power attack, toughness, improved crit and their three weapon style feats (twf or thf):

A pure khopesh wielding non-human rogue hasn't a single free feat slot, and if they do, it's probably spent on improved sunder.

A pure non-human barbarian hasn't a single free feat slot, and a pure non-human khopesh wielding barbarian usually has to drop toughness.

A non-human pure TWF warchanter bard can't take a single metamagic feat (no extend, no quicken, no maximize).

There are I'm sure many more examples like this (Paladin comes to mind).

The completionist feat simply does so much more for a wizard, fighter or monk than it does for any other class. For some of the examples mentioned it may not even be worth taking, as it prevents them from taking feats which are core to their class. For this reason, and this reason alone, it should be a free feat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

---

/fail
good work eledrin , the only thing you can do is help crybabies and power up the casters

/signed

Feat slots are highly dependant upon build. That means that rewards based upon them are inherently flawed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

---

I'm rather shocked that you have this perspective.

You're equating the power that this feat provides to a character with the acquisition of every skill focus and two of every "epic great ability" feat.

First fundamental problem- Skills

You are handwaving the actual impact 99% of these skills have on any character. Would you ever spend a feat slot on a skill focus feat in anything besides UMD or intimidate across all characters? Even when skill focus feats are taken, from my experience, this happens temporarily on a newer build until they acquire the gear necessary to do without it. Chances are a completionist already has that gear anyway.

Second, "epic great ability" sounds very fancy and powerful. Bring that description back down to reality, its an extra stat modifer in each stat. Casters use some, melee use others, some hybrid builds sample a different set. No real build has gamebreaking results from every stat getting bumped up a modifier.

You're an experienced developer Eladrin, and you are doing a wonderful job with expanding this great game. But, as far as this topic is concerned, I expect a better objective evaluation from you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Durnak

I'm rather shocked that you have this perspective.

You're equating the power that this feat provides to a character with the acquisition of every skill focus and two of every "epic great ability" feat.

First fundamental problem- Skills

You are handwaving the actual impact 99% of these skills have on any character. Would you ever spend a feat slot on a skill focus feat in anything besides UMD or intimidate across all characters? Even when skill focus feats are taken, from my experience, this happens temporarily on a newer build until they acquire the gear necessary to do without it. Chances are a completionist already has that gear anyway.

Second, "epic great ability" sounds very fancy and powerful. Bring that description back down to reality, its an extra stat modifer in each stat. Casters use some, melee use others, some hybrid builds sample a different set. No real build has gamebreaking results from every stat getting bumped up a modifier.

You're an experienced developer Eladrin, and you are doing a wonderful job with expanding this great game. But, as far as this topic is concerned, I expect a better objective evaluation from you.

---

Dude ... srsly. :confused:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

---

...and it was meant to be a joke and never in game.

Here is the deal. Since it is not a free feat, players that aquire the ability to spend a feat on it are very driven to play a Wizard, Fighter, or Monk. Rangers, barbarians, and Divine also can afford
If if forced.

But Paladins, Rogues, Sorcs, Bards.....forget about it.

My end build is feat rich as a Half-elven Pale Master/Monk Shadowdancer so is not an issue for me. But if after 18 lives (wanted max spell pen) my 360th leveled avatar could not be the class I wanted due to feat constraints......I'd be disappointed.

I'll bet 80%+ of all competionists end up as Wizards, Fighters, or Monks. Seams broken to me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

---

I appreciate the response, even if it's not what we wanted to hear.

/signed

+3 to all skills. It's 'nice', but not worth spending a feat on unless I need that +3 for a specific application. Trap monkeys appreciate this.

+2 to all stats. Unless you suffer from MAD, you're only really using 2 of these stats. Everyone can use the con, and one stat. A few misguided characters could use more stats, but now it's much less important because the dex/wis AC build is not as worthwhile anymore.

So it's a toughness feat with your primary stat +2. Not bad, but hardly game breaking. Consider how many hours someone has to put in to get it. Weigh it against the other feats on a limited feat build-- look at barbarians. Do you want to give up an epic feat (50 hp or another cleave) for +2 strength and 20hp? Maybe?

It's the best feat at level 1, but with the changes to AC and epic levels, it's not the best feat at level 24.

Not that it's going to happen, but it always struck me as cheap that it wasn't given out for free. That's a lot of work and true-heart buying.

/signed

Just cuz.

Turbine look the positive side, Completionist feat op = more grinding, more potion xp, more money for u

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

---

Sad to hear this. Completionist is also getting worse with the expansion, because of the changes to "to hit" and "AC". +2 to STR will not translate into +5% to hit anymore at all.

Completionist is no more and no less than +2 to all stats and +2 to skills. That is all, nothing else than that. Now, if theoretical maximum to a stat would be 20, +2 is very powerful, but if max stands around 50, it's a lot less, and if it stands a 70, even less.

What do players look for with their builds? Power. What is power? The ability to deal more dps (or kill more/faster/reliablier) and surivavility. So +2 to all stats seems amazing, but in terms of power for casters it's close to +1 DC and some 20 hp and to melees it's insignificant increase in to-hit, insignificant increase in damage and 20 hp. What is better, Greater Two Handed Fighting or completionist in terms of increasing damage? GTHF, no analysis even needed. You have to analyze what is the opportunity cost of this feat, and in most cases (most builds) it's absurd.

Also, Completionist is not free at all, it costs around 200$? 13 True Hearts of wood + 130 xp pots? Last time i checked that was lots of TPs. And most of all (let's better not put prices there) over a thousand hours.

If it's the consensus that it's too good to give in exchange of the aforementioned effort, sure, go on with that. But the consensus on the playerbase seems to be another. A bit surprised though nobody over there sees this as an opportunity to make this a long term rising star -> milking cow opportunity.

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Originally Posted by SableShadow

Dude ... srsly. :confused:

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what?

Completionist should be like an auto past life feat. Such a very small percentage of players get it. Why not?

OP < Rewarding that grinding



To put it another way, if you are a completionist you have probably spent HIGH RL$ in the turbine store, speculatively significant revenue.

Who would be opposed?

/nosigned...

However I personally think its time to embrace the pathfinder system and increase feats to every odd level!

yes please make a free feat

not saying those that do not have completionist are not dedicated players (they may have 10 36 point builds played regularly )

but I can say that a completionist certainly has weathered through the years of minimal xp and most likely spent a lot of real coin, as I have so far, In working towards that completionist goal

yes yes yes - please

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Originally Posted by Durnak

No real build has gamebreaking results from every stat getting bumped up a modifier.

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Heh, then why do you guys work so hard to get completionist if the feat sucks so much?

It's +1 DC to all spells, 20 hps (basically an extra toughness feat), +1 to all saves, +1 to hit/damage, +3 to all skills, +1 to combat tactics

That's a pretty freaking awesome feat.

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

Heh, then why do you guys work so hard to get completionist if the feat sucks so much?

It's +1 DC to all spells, 20 hps (basically an extra toughness feat), +1 to all saves, +1 to hit/damage, +3 to all skills

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Because they are completionists, DUH!

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Originally Posted by AtomicMew

Most of those bonuses are marginal: +1 skill check isn't going to break any character.

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It's +3 to all skills

Everyone gets:

• 20 hps is an extra toughness feat
• +3 to all skills is equal to ALL Skill Focus feats combined
• +1 to all saves is equal to the Luck of the Hero feat

Casters get:

• +1 DCs to ALL spell schools is huge, that's equal to 7 feats (normal spell focus feats only give +1 to a single school)
• You may only care about 2-3 schools, but still equal to 2-3 feats.

Melee get:

• +1 to hit/damage (don't tell me you powergamers don't want every single +1 you can get)
• +1 Combat DCs
• Possibly more AC

I do agree it's unfair that feat-starved classes can't use this feat (or other PL active feats) easily. But I don't think it should be free... Maybe cost APs (but then there are AP-starved classes).

Maybe use an equipment slot? (heh, I kid I kid)

It's a feat like any other feat. You have to make a choice if it's worth it to you. If GTHF is a better choice for a barbarian than completionist, then the barb should pick GTHF... If there are 9 other feats better for a pure barbian than completionist, than a barbarian probably shouldn't go for completionist. Different classes get more or less feats for a reason. It's part of the balance.

You guys are all expert at evaluating the trade-offs of different build choices. You knew how completionist worked before you started down that path.

It should not be free. It's too strong for that. In almost all cases, it's worth a feat slot. Fit it in. Or not. Just like every other feat. Make a choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

Heh, then why do you guys work so hard to get completionist if the feat sucks so much?

It's +1 DC to all spells, 20 hps (basically an extra toughness feat), +1 to all saves, +1 to hit/damage, +3 to all skills, +1 to combat tactics

That's a pretty freaking awesome feat.

---

That's nice. Let's actually talk about where this feat is useful though because that is how the game works, you don't really care AT ALL about most of those things on a particular build.

So let's take a DC caster (it's a wizard because OW feat slots become more of an issue)...

• +1 DCs
• +3 Concentration
• +20 HP
• -1 Feat Slot
• Few more SP from higher base casting stat
• +1 to All Saves

Not so bad I agree. However, instead the same person could have done 2 Barb lives, 2 Wizard lives, and 2 FvS Lives. (They cut out monk, fighter, rogue, ranger, pali, cleric (this build does not care about that school) NOTE: they also could cut druid/artificer/bard for three less times around the treadmill). They would have the same hp bump, +6 Spell Pen (which is frankly more powerful), some SP bump from FvS. For that they lost no feat slot so they can throw a feat into the Focus they actually care about (it's usually necro/enchant with one so high it is irrelevant in most cases). They also saved two more feat slots for spell pen feats and 6 AP. The second build is actually alot better off then the first one.

Every incentive is about what could be done instead. In this case, well a player could just plain get more effective PL for their build.

Let's take another build now...we will say fighter (because a pali, rogue, barb...they all are so tight on feats that the slot is a major sacrifice)...

• +20 HP
• +1 to hit
• +1 tactic DCs
• +1 damage
• +1 to all saves

Not bad at all, but those skills yeah the fighter could care less...maybe intim IF they are a tank build. So instead of leveling up an artificer, ranger, druid, cleric, bard, FvS, wizard, sorc they go 2 barb, 2 fighter, 2 monk, 1 Rogue more for equal lives. You will note that the past lives grant almost nothing for the a melee fighter that are given up. They end up with the same HP, +2 to hit, +2 tactics DC, +2 damage, +1 sneak attack damage, one more feat slot, and one less to saves (luck of heroes if they really wanted for equal).

Jeez, that second one is a complete no brainer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

I do agree it's unfair that feat-starved classes can't use this feat (or other PL active feats) easily. But I don't think it should be free... Maybe cost APs (but then there are AP-starved classes).
~
It should not be free. It's too strong for that. In almost all cases, it's worth a feat slot. Fit it in. Or not. Just like every other feat. Make a choice.

---

ITs not even really free, Grinding to completionist takes time and resources, 260+epic tokens and/or DDO store points, XP pots(turn-ins or DDO Store) access to all classess (Favour, VIP,DDO Store), Bank space, more bank space(DDO Store)... Turbine is profiting from those thant grind out completionists.

It is an achievement to get to completionist and yet a feat has to be spent to get the benefit of completionist, a forced respec happens anytime a new class is released.

it is worthwile farming as the Completionist does offer a great benefit, but ultimately it forces a feat sacrafice choice that really shouldnt have to be made. All classes are not feat balanced, AP is not a choice either as many classes are AP challenged as well.

It should be Freely granted for the achievement.

It is like farming out silver-flame favor for the pots and finding out that you have to spend a feat to be able to drink those pots and if any new Silver flame quests come out you have to re-run all the favor again... twice...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

No changes are planned for the Completionist feat. It's quite powerful and quite worthy of a feat slot.

It's like two copies of every epic Great <ability> feats and Skill Focus: Everything wrapped into one.

---

So what percentage of DDO characters can actually take this feat? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000? Seriously, its not overpowered because hardly anyone can actually take it. I always figured it not being free was a bug that would be fixed one day (tech limitations or some thing).

Between the bait and switch tactics for the wail nerf and this response, my respect for you has dropped several notches. At least answer the question on whether the copy and paste of implosion to wail will still have implosions bugs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cyr

That's nice. Let's actually talk about where this feat is useful though because that is how the game works, you don't really care AT ALL about most of those things on a particular build.

So let's take a DC caster (it's a wizard because OW feat slots become more of an issue)...

• +1 DCs
• +3 Concentration
• +20 HP
• -1 Feat Slot
• Few more SP from higher base casting stat
• +1 to All Saves

Not so bad I agree. However, instead the same person could have done 2 Barb lives, 2 Wizard lives, and 2 FvS Lives. (They cut out monk, fighter, rogue, ranger, pali, cleric (this build does not care about that school) NOTE: they also could cut druid/artificer/bard for three less times around the treadmill). They would have the same hp bump, +6 Spell Pen (which is frankly more powerful), some SP bump from FvS. For that they lost no feat slot so they can throw a feat into the Focus they actually care about (it's usually necro/enchant with one so high it is irrelevant in most cases). They also saved two more feat slots for spell pen feats and 6 AP. The second build is actually alot better off then the first one.

Every incentive is about what could be done instead. In this case, well a player could just plain get more effective PL for their build.

Let's take another build now...we will say fighter (because a pali, rogue, barb...they all are so tight on feats that the slot is a major sacrifice)...

• +20 HP
• +1 to hit
• +1 tactic DCs
• +1 damage
• +1 to all saves

Not bad at all, but those skills yeah the fighter could care less...maybe intim IF they are a tank build. So instead of leveling up an artificer, ranger, druid, cleric, bard, FvS, wizard, sorc they go 2 barb, 2 fighter, 2 monk, 1 Rogue more for equal lives. You will note that the past lives grant almost nothing for the a melee fighter that are given up. They end up with the same HP, +2 to hit, +2 tactics DC, +2 damage, +1 sneak attack damage, one more feat slot, and one less to saves (luck of heroes if they really wanted for equal).

Jeez, that second one is a complete no brainer.

---

Yep, I agree with your analysis... which is why I would never go for completionist. Hitting 7 or so caster lives for your caster and 7 or so melee lives for melee pays off a lot better than completionist.

And people KNEW this before they started down the completionist path.

It's still one heck of a single feat, and (this is important) people can get it AND all those extra past lives you posted above. So you have to look at its power alone, not in comparison with those other past live feats.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JOTMON

ITs not even really free, Grinding to completionist takes time and resources, 260+epic tokens and/or DDO store points, XP pots(turn-ins or DDO Store) access to all classess (Favour, VIP,DDO Store), Bank space, more bank space(DDO Store)... Turbine is profiting from those thant grind out completionists.

It is an achievement to get to completionist and yet a feat has to be spent to get the benefit of completionist, a forced respec happens anytime a new class is released.

it is worthwile farming as the Completionist does offer a great benefit, but ultimately it forces a feat sacrafice choice that really shouldnt have to be made. All classes are not feat balanced, AP is not a choice either as many classes are AP challenged as well.

It should be Freely granted for the achievement.

It is like farming out silver-flame favor for the pots and finding out that you have to spend a feat to be able to drink those pots and if any new Silver flame quests come out you have to re-run all the favor again... twice...

---

You could make the same argument for ALL the active past-life feats... All of them have to be taken to get any benefit, and feat-starved builds have a harder time fitting them in.

Should all active past-life feats also be granted freely?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vordax

So what percentage of DDO characters can actually take this feat? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000? Seriously, its not overpowered because hardly anyone can actually take it.

---

I don't get that logic. Something can be overpowered even if only 1 person gets it. It doesn't matter how many people can get it (and besides those people are the last people in the game who need a free bonus - they are already way ahead in power over the other 99.999%)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

You could make the same argument for ALL the active past-life feats... All of them have to be taken to get any benefit, and feat-starved builds have a harder time fitting them in.

Should all active past-life feats also be granted freely?

---

Not really, Completionist is a great generalist benefit for farming out 13+lives, but not all the perks benefit all the classes.
A FVS/cleric has no need for any extra skill points, non-combat versions dont even need the DC's..
A rogue may(or not.. many rogues are skill point maxxed) benefit from a some of the skill points, but has no use for caster + DC's and struggles with the feat cost.
A paladin would benefit greatly from completionist as they rely on more than 2 stats and yet are one of the most feat starved classes, what do they give up.. shield mastery.. toughness.. or splash and lose capstone.

Individual past life feats offer specific benefits to the past life being taken, almost all the active past life feats are worthless to any specific build, the ones chosen give specific benefits to the build and would replace a feat... like Wiz greater spell pen replaced by wiz active past life +1 to DC's is comperable upgrade.
Barbarian active past life qualifies for toughness enhancements so you could trade up toughness feat.

On a feat starved class a feat progression or PRE chain is likely broken to take Completionist, or that build has to splash to a feat rich class like Monk/Fighter losing capstone to take the feat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vordax

So what percentage of DDO characters can actually take this feat? 1 in 10,000? 1 in 100,000? Seriously, its not overpowered because hardly anyone can actually take it. I always figured it not being free was a bug that would be fixed one day (tech limitations or some thing).

Between the bait and switch tactics for the wail nerf and this response, my respect for you has dropped several notches. At least answer the question on whether the copy and paste of implosion to wail will still have implosions bugs.

---

Besides the attempt to derail the thread with a caster nerf complaint......
The % doesnt really matter.. the game 3 years from now if it is still going will have more completionists....
There is not a time limit on how long you take to get it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by quijenoth

/nosigned...

However I personally think its time to embrace the pathfinder system and increase feats to every odd level!

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Pathfinder is a spinoff by Paizo based on 3.0 ruleset that mimics 3.5 in some ways..
Pathfinder is interesting but soo much different that it is not even relevent to the topic.
DDO is no where close to being able to encompass the pathfinder differences..6 more classes, mounts, combat manouvers...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

You could make the same argument for ALL the active past-life feats... All of them have to be taken to get any benefit, and feat-starved builds have a harder time fitting them in.

Should all active past-life feats also be granted freely?

---

Kind of.

I find it highly inappropriate for half (or more) of the payoff that comes from the effort of TRing a character to be tied up in another mechanic (feats) that differs significantly from one character to the next.

I'd prefer for all PL feats to just get wrapped up with the passives and auto-granted, but the "feat" portion would only be given once, or give all TR'ed characters a bonus feat slot at level 3 that can only hold a PL feat or Completionist. I think the latter is a reasonable solution, but still suffers from the same problem, albeit less so. Fighters, wizards, artificers and monks (and to a lesser extend, rangers, especially if their feat prereqs get lessened with the enhancement update) can fit multiple past life feats and/or Completionist more easily than anyone else, but at least the rest of the characters can fit some of their PL feats.

Completionist takes too much effort to be something only certain characters can pick up easily once they've unlocked it.

It would be like if the number of AP we received via the enhancement system was different from one class to the next based on the number of feats that class gained. It makes some sense, but it would have been very unfair. Past Lives are a different system, but got tied to feats, which is already a somewhat unbalanced and limited system--it didn't need more being tied to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Completionist takes too much effort to be something only certain characters can pick up easily once they've unlocked it.

---

But to play devil's advocate... a big part of character planning is accounting for limitations like feat slots.

There's a lot of feats that only certain characters can pick up easily.

Anyone going for completionist should have an end-build in mind, and they can decide AHEAD OF TIME if they're going to have enough feats. Splashing for extra feat slots is a big part of many builds, why not a completionist build?

Quote:

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Past Lives are a different system, but got tied to feats, which is already a somewhat unbalanced and limited system--it didn't need more being tied to it.

---

Are feats an unbalanced system? Fighters get a ton of feats because they don't get innate powers like rage or spells or LoH or smites, etc.

Wizards get a ton of feats because they cast slower, and get less SP than sorcs

Extra feat slots are used to balance out the classes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

But to play devil's advocate... a big part of character planning is accounting for limitations like feat slots.

There's a lot of feats that only certain characters can pick up easily.

Anyone going for completionist should have an end-build in mind, and they can decide AHEAD OF TIME if they're going to have enough feats. Splashing for extra feat slots is a big part of many builds, why not a completionist build?
.

---

I call nonsense on this one.

Completionist is a very time consuming path to take. So time consuming that by the end of the road the builds have often changed...perhaps multiple times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by quijenoth

/nosigned...

However I personally think its time to embrace the pathfinder system and increase feats to every odd level!

---

i hate that system
makes character building ********

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

But to play devil's advocate... a big part of character planning is accounting for limitations like feat slots.

There's a lot of feats that only certain characters can pick up easily.

Anyone going for completionist should have an end-build in mind, and they can decide AHEAD OF TIME if they're going to have enough feats. Splashing for extra feat slots is a big part of many builds, why not a completionist build?

---

Yes, part of the game revolves around character planning, but it also relies on different systems for this. Spells are separate from feats are separate from skills are separate from enhancements. Past lives shouldn't have been made into feats, because they added a separate system, with completely separate parameters to an already over-taxed system.

My point is that Completionists shouldn't feel forced into a smaller subset of possible builds just because the ability they worked so long and hard for is a feat that most characters can't fit. Other than the fact that it was made a feat first, can you present an argument for why it should be a feat?

Quote:

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Are feats an unbalanced system? Fighters get a ton of feats because they don't get innate powers like rage or spells or LoH or smites, etc.

---

The problem with that logic si that not all class abilities are worth a feat, and fighters do gain class features now in the form of enhancements. Sure, everybody gets them, but they remove some of that issue. And limiting feats feels more penalizing to everyone than it does beneficial to those that have them. In PnP, where these designs come from, characters were mostly picking up prestige classes for their power, and there was little reason to stay in a particular class for very long, so for many characters, splashing for a feat was very much worthwhile.

In DDO, we have BIG draws to going pure, or mostly pure, and splashing for feats becomes less and less attractive with every update.

Quote:

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Extra feat slots are used to balance out the classes.

---

It would be better to add unique class features to the classes currently using feats to give them power, and to then give other classes some bonus feats. Part of the problem on the fighter side of things especially is that feats don't scale very well with level, so while some other class is getting a class ability suitable to a level 15 or 20 character, fighters are still selecting feats from level 1-6 for the most part, or small upgrades to feats from those levels. This is a little less true for wizards, only because metamagics become more useful when you have higher levels of spells and more spell points/slots to play with.

If you were to take away a fighter's enhancements and compare them to a ranger without enhancements, the ranger wins for power. They are close to barbarians. They are probably weaker in DDO than paladins. If you take away wizard and sorcerer enhancements and compare them, wizards probably end up stronger than sorcerers with more spell options, better DCs, the same damage per spell, and not too many fewer spell points after Improved Mental Toughness. Feats aren't a very good balancing tool.

Fighters make up for their lack of class features in their enhancements. Much of the power of non-spellcasters comes from enhancements. Heck, even a lot of a spellcaster's power comes from AP.