Let's Talk: Enhancements!

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

EDIT: See a mockup/explanation on page 29 of this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=578

I would do better with a visualization of the new UI. You guys may not have it ready, or have a mock up available though. Doesn't sound outrageous as you presented it.

I think people that still have the "Crit Rage" enhancement line are going to set fire to the forums when they find out about this. Good luck with that Madfloyd. :)

Thank you for the heads up sir!

Well, not sure if the thread is for this but Thanks a lot!

Also, a look at the new UI would be nice :D

Cheers

Zess

Oh no enhancment changes. We don't wanna lose you like we did Hsinclair.

Ok kidding aside. I think having a look at enhancments would be a good thing. Some new/better choices will be nice. More importantly rebalancing the costs of some is probably more important. Monks and pallys are hit especially hard but there's others too that have issues. Racial enhancments need a really good workover and this would be a great way to even out the racial discrepencies a bit. Would be awesome if this change came with a large investment in prestige upgrades also.

Hard to say a lot more without some more specific ideas on what kinds of changes we are looking at..

Curious what kind of time frame are we looking at on a revamp here?

Im sure there's some crit rage barbarians gonna be upset.

New UI? Fine.

I have no problem with the current one but if it means you're able to finish the PrEs, by all means, DO IT!!!

reduce pally ap costs plox. :)


Anyway, this all sounds pretty good to me so far..

Great news!

I recruited a lot of mewbies in my guild last month and most of them didn't know what a prestige was, inluding some 10+ charcters.

And yes, more option is better

Whatever you do, make sure game won't use so much time on resetting and acceping new enhancement setup, and give each enhancement a SEPARATE ICON, WHICH IS NOT USED ANYWHERE IN GAME.

Sounds interesting. I'd also like to request a mock-up of the proposed change, with all the usual "Subject to Change" disclaimers. The resulting input from posting one will probably help refine the design and ease people into the change, so that (at least forum-users) people won't be put off by the sudden change. :D

Yeah, trying to see all the available options at once is a pain and a half, add a nice face lift as well as some adjustments sounds good to me.

Can't wait to start seeing some of the changes. :)

Cautiously optimistic about this. The current Enhancement UI is certainly not ideal. Hopefully, we'll be seeing some serious love for the primary Melee classes, particularly in terms of DPS.

I do hope we don't see a proliferation of prereqs, to fit things into the tree. Pre-reqs are fine in moderation, but too many reduces build options. I think what we have currently is about right.

An ehnacement tree would be nice.

I'm not too concerned about the enhancements themselves changing. They've changed a ton since the game started, and this is just one more iteration. As long as the cost to reset them is sufficiently low (plat and 3 days is reasonable) then it should be all goodness.

do it, and the sooner the better

Resetting enhancements - Those of us that have been around long enough remember doing that when the Enhancement system was first done. I don't see this as a personal problem, but I also don't have a Barbarian with Crit Rage anymore. This change would be a true end of that Era. Also since I will adjust my AP every now and then to try new stuff I don't see having to do them all over again as a bad thing - especially if your giving me more options. Be sad if my current options cost more than they do now, that I would be sad about yep yep.

To (Pre's anyone?) - the answer is a resounding YES. Finish the current ones and give us the other ones we have been waiting for {closes eyes and chants Warpriest, Warpriest, please give us Warpriest}

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Hopefully, we'll be seeing some serious love for the primary Melee classes, particularly in terms of DPS.

I do hope we don't see a proliferation of prereqs, to fit things into the tree. Pre-reqs are fine in moderation, but too many reduces build options. I think what we have currently is about right.

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This is yes.

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs).

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A bit of a mind-dump, but what they hey, didn't see this one coming:

If balance is the intent, I'd personally advocate for higher, but non-stacking ones.

Say:

Progressing the +stat enhancements beyond level 10 to a full +6 by the end, alongside divorcing them from being locked into a pure class (one of my earliest disappointments when I started was seeing +dex for rogue and ranger, only to find out that they were an either/or. Progressing them to the full 20 would net 2 paths for that (pure, or mixed), and making it so its enhancements or itemization would give a 3rd, and free up an item slot if the game were balanced for that.).

Similarly, the elemental resistance enhancement lines for rogues, barbs, and rangers could progress to being the equivalent of having a permanent resist item/spell, which would yield the options for bring a caster, be in a guild, drink pots, wear items, or buy enhancements.


In a different vein, purely talking augmentation, it would be nice for an across the board enhancement rework for those classes that are inherently a mix of melee and casting, so that the limited SP pool and spell selection were the only real differences, and not the effectiveness of the spells as well (baring of course caster level). Say the cures of a paly, and the cures of a cleric, provided the same aps were spent, as an example. Doesn't give em heals, and surely wont last as long, but every bit helps there in differentiating the melee classes.

i got a bad feeling about this

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Originally Posted by enoach

to (pre's anyone?) - the answer is a resounding yes. Finish the current ones and give us the other ones we have been waiting for {closes eyes and chants warpriest, warpriest, please give us warpriest}

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yes!!

I think a facelift sounds awesome. Tree-style will make it a bit easier on newbs (not to be confused with noobs, who will still screw it up, but there's nothing to be done about that) and people less proficient at that kind of micro-management.

What I'm most excited about, MadFloyd, is the concept of NEW enhancements. For example, did you know that monks have no class enhancements at level 1 (aside from Improved [skill] I)? Did you know that many/most/maybe all light monks are just burning AP on stuff they don't want until they can hit that magic AP spent threshold (dark monks have it a bit easier because of the filler prereqs that Ninja Spy has)?

This could also be an excellent time to revisit some prereqs for enhancements, as some are ludicrous (Assassin PrE, Void 4), and in general, I look forward greatly to a vast "enhancement pass" like spells received in U9.

My big question: are we going to be losing enhancements, as well as gaining new ones? If so, could we get a heads up?

I like these Let's Talk threads, Mad! It's awesome to be notified about changes like this (especially big ones), and be given a chance to weigh in.

Hopefully this will lead to more options in the enhancements, as it is now, there are alot of cases where you are forced to take useless ones just to spend points, and there are alot that you just simply cannot, not take without gimping your character.

This is great news.

Please look at reducing certain AP costs (Pally, Monk) and/or giving us more AP while leveling or even past L20.

Actually gaining AP past L20 (as a massive XP requirement) would be awesome. Even an extra 5 or 10 AP would really help to flesh out and make our builds more unique.

One thing as a definite heads up, you will probably want to give out feat respecs/lrs etc. for characters with prestiges that require enhancements and feats.

That's something that I can see would cause harumphing if your feat/enhancement requires prevented you from reseting to what you were.

Agreed, the enhancement UI needs tree-based organization. Use as many levels as you can since they'll be easy to open and close.

Example (incomplete display for brevity, multi-classed toon):

- Class: Rogue
- Action Boost
- Haste Boost
Haste Boost I
Haste Boost II
...
- Prestige
- Assassin
Assassin I
Assassin II
Assassin III
+ Mechanic
+ Thief-Acrobat
- Skills
- Disable Device
Disable Device I
Disable Device II
....
+ Open Lock
- Class: Paladin
- Prestige
+ Hunter of the Dead
+ Knight of the Chalice
- Defender of Siberys
Defender of Siberys I
Defender of Siberys II
Defender of Siberys III
- Skills
- Intimidate
Intimidate I
Intimidate II
..
- Race: Half-Orc
- Extra Action Boost
Extra Action Boost I
Extra Action Boost II
...
- Stats
Strength I
Strength II
- Threat
Threat I
Threat II
...
- Toughness
Racial Toughness I
Racial Toughness II


My only other pet-peeve is the mutual exclusivity between class-based enhancements which makes some combinations of prestige enhancements imposssible. For example, if a prestige required Cleric Charisma and another required Paladin Charisma then you couldn't take both of those prestiges. Sorry I can't think of a real example right now, but I know for certain there are such cases.

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it.

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True words.

I approve of any change that makes the UI better.

You're not very descriptive about the planed changes, but I recommend taking a look at the AP costs of PrEs, and the utility / AP cost of abilities. All PrEs don't necessarily need the same AP cost for each tier, but the benefits should be on par with the cost.
Also keep in mind that the values have changed a lot since the level cap was 12. The benefits of Energy of the Scholar for example are a bit ridiculous now (+20/30 sp when wizards usually have around 2,000 sp is 1%).
It would be great if some imaginative enhancements were introduced, like a way for rogues to reduce fortification, or to eliminate epic mobs immunity to attribute damage, etc. You could play with enhancements to allow some character to bypass some immunities.

The current filters kind of suck. Sometimes they don't even work properly (try viewing enhancements, checking unavailable and unchecking trained - it usually doesn't filter your trained ones this way), and it is painful that the filters can't be set and locked. It is also frustrating to have to scan through the whole list of "unavailable" enhancements for every race and class to find the few that will eventually become available to the race and class you're currently playing.

I am really glad to hear about this UI change, and hope that some of these issues will be addressed (if not eradicated, due to a totally different interface)! :D

My concern would be with cost on trees where I cannot afford things that I have now because the prerequisites become too expensive. Meaning too many things in too many trees with too many prereqs.

BUT fixing --> having to remember what did I need for that enhancement and which was it for that one again ... search .... search ... grumle brumble .. oh there it is ..... again. <-- fixing that would be awesomesauce

Easier way to distinguish what is required to qualify for a pre would be nice. As it is now you have to scroll through tons of enhancements to find you pre (some of which you dont even qualify for, melee with spell dmg lines anyone) or look it up online.

As always not sure how much I'll like change. Guess we will see when more information is available.

I've liked every change you've made to enhancements so far - each has made my toons more interesting.

That said anything that makes the selection more intuitive - it took me 6 months to find the essential "show unavailable" bit - would be welcome.

Enhancements are a mixed bag in my mind. I would love a new UI (I have to use Imitating's enhancement planner every time I reset mines, or I get lost on the requisites), and I loved the new arcane lines. But on the other hand, there are a ton of "useless" enhancements that to nothing useful anymore. I mean, I doubt anyone ever buyed Sprint Boost IV. It just isnt worthy of 10 APs. Say the same for resist energy lines ( +6 resist is a joke), barbarian DR boost, or fighter/paladin Armor Boost

A complete revamp on the enhancements would remove a lot of useless things that were useful once, and isn't anymore. Eg, monk AP line still "thinks" you need to buy the first tier stances.

Since it's on topic, I'll give some ideas that probably someone will post while I type:

• Remove ability bonus enhancements. At all. The only thing they do is adding power creep. Instead, add more class/racial enhancements that cover the niche the ability was covering. Eg, rogues could get a reflex enhancement line instead of a dex enhancement line.
• Prestige enhancements should be visible all the time for anyone check pre-requisites without needing to check a box. The tree UI should help on this.
• Be sure to not hurt gishes. Not only fighter/wizard and such. Paladins and rangers can be considered "gishes" (Melee with a few magic support), but if they want to boost their magic power (like more SP, higher healing, extend spell, and so on), they lose a lot of melee power. Since the game actually is balanced towards the max hit barbarians/fighters, we have paladins and rangers not doing much against their non-favored enemies.
• Racial weapon enhancements should be rebalanced. Not much to think about it. 6 AP for +2 damage is too much.
• Remove the iron defender line. Now we have artificers.
• Show a screenshot of a quick draft of what you expect the new UI and new enhancements to be, so we can give more precise feedback.

~2¢

I'd like to see a reduction in cost for bard enhancements. Inspired Attack is outrageous.

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Originally Posted by Feithlin

Also keep in mind that the values have changed a lot since the level cap was 12. The benefits of Energy of the Scholar for example are a bit ridiculous now (+20/30 sp when wizards usually have around 2,000 sp is 1%).
.

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HOLY CR@P That's a good point. +1.

As part of the new Enhancements UI, I'd like to suggest an added feature that brings forth a popup under certain conditions saying something like, "Hey dumbass! You know you forgot to pick up Inscribed Armor?"

There have been several times when I would have found this useful... :)



As long as the changes to the Enhancements UI don't break Handwraps, I look forward to the update.

One thing I would like to see is the ability to swap out a few enhancements -- get rid of one or two things without having to re-do all of your enhancements... a perfect example is my air savant who is maxed out on his electrical spec and his cold spec, I'd like to be able to hop back and forth from air to water savant without having to re-do everything.

And well another nifty thing would be the ability to build from the top down... select say Frenzied Berserker 3 and work backwards...

Thx.

I don't care how it changes, practically anything else would be an improvement. Augmenting them as well will just be icing on the cake for me.
Ron & Co. may hate the extra work you're volunteering them for, but it will be worth it. ;)

Woot yay - I especially like the idea of the "hey dumbass" UI :)

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

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It is a very cumbersome interface and could certainly use an upgrade. So... Yay!

From several of the dev posts I've read recently, it seems you folks are excited about something. If that's any indicator, I'm looking forward to the next few updates!

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Originally Posted by Meat-Head

reduce pally ap costs plox. :)

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Please, this. Really.

Make DM reasonable, since at the moment the top tier generally requires both 1/8 of a paladin's total AP and a starting charisma of 18.

Make the exalted smite chain worth taking, maybe by giving each tier a reduction to the smite regen time (also adding this to KotC, ofc). Change the Extra Smite line to 1 AP per tier instead of ascending 1/2/3/4.

Make LoHs more powerful, regenerating, and generally more useful. With HElf monks running around with no fail heal scrolls and any caster class having pretty much endless self healing, this ability could use a bump (maybe allow it to function with Devotion effects, and Reconstruction effects for warforged. Both stacking, since HAmp doesn't boost a WF LoH).

Change KotC to something useful against all targets (maybe +3 to-hit/damage to non-goods at t1, +3 to-hit/damage to evils at t2, and +4 to-hit/damage to evil outsiders t3).

Do SOMETHING with HotD to make it worth taking for any situation beyond leveling up and bragging on HAmp builds.

Give Paladins a capstone that can't be passed out by artificers.

Any and all buffing is welcome.

I had just thought of a suggestion about the implementation...

Don't make it a hard forced change... let people have the option of keeping their enhancements the way they were for a bit (I know I know, but listen)...

The reason being, WHAT IF? What if it doesn't work as planned right away? Everyone will be ticked off. Instead if you allow players the option to switch one character over at a time to the new system (so they can enjoy the benefits) you'll still get feedback, but it won't be immediately forced on the entire community -- this allows for a margin of error...

I know that might be harder to implement, but it might be the wise way to go. At least until you are certain that all the kinks are worked out (and it's been implemented on live for several months).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by blkcat1028

It is a very cumbersome interface and could certainly use an upgrade. So... Yay!

From several of the dev posts I've read recently, it seems you folks are excited about something. If that's any indicator, I'm looking forward to the next few updates!

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The Devs were really excited about the challenges, and Maj's "Best Item EVAR" was a clicky that turned you into a kobold.

Expect dissappointment and you end up pleasantly surprised.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

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I don't expect anything more than grouping children horizontally and showing them as icons. But, that would mean to much icons, say for Sorcerer Glaciation I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII. Maybe you could have simple icons with hover tooltips explaining what icon means. That would conserve space vertically and wouldn't be so much scrolling needed.

Quote:

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We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

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Tree is a tree - it's just how you render it.

Functionality is more important than pretty colors. If I want pretty colors, I go surf the web.

Also, I don't understand why not implement tier III enhancements for classes which have tier II. It's just silly. I understand lack of the whole Prestige for one class, but lacking tier III is silly.
I hope you go all the way - no more "maybe yes, maybe no" attitude!!! (Occult slayer - maybe yes, but tier II only. :P )

Quote:

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It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

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People like changes in theory, but never in practice - no matter how blunt this sounds.
If you are getting new servers, consider giving Tempests their bonus to attack speed back, instead of double strike (same for paladin's zeal).

Also, core point revolving around building toons - FEATS. Please, review them:
-> Shoot on the run - doesn't apply to bow users while moving (borked!),
-> Whirlwind attack - to slow animation,
-> Slicing blow - useless - doesn't scale with character level or any stat modifier,
-> Cleave, Geater cleave, Whirlwind attack, Supreme cleave - all share the same animation - maybe change it to see a difference?
-> Improved shield bash - when attacking with a weapon and a shield (char has this feat) animation looks dorky. Consider making this an active feat so when clicked, it executes an animation like that Skeleton, which likes to dance a lot, does it.
-> Mobile spellcasting - if a caster doesn't have this feat, spells can't be cast while jumping and moving. Add a slow effect there or something. Make this feat viable.
-> Power critical - give me a break. Make it like a Seeker Competence bonus. It's a passive feat so not much fuss about changing it.
-> Rapid shot - no difference when using bows. Make this an active feat so it doubles the rate of firing arrows/bolts at the cost of -4 to attack.

There are also skills in the game which have little sense to take:
- Heal - do something with this feat. Allow using healer/repair kits on self. At least that.
- Hide/Move silently - that's a story for itself. Using an object breaks stealth. Sniper shot breaks stealth. Some love here, please.
- Listen - this skill is almost worthless. Spot is far better. At least use it in some quests as a part of dialog check (like bluff and spot are in Partycrashers).
- Swim - more gauntlets like Crucible with rushing water and stuff,
- Tumble - completely useless. First of all, to tumble you need to hold down shift and then press movement key. Change this so when a movement key is 'double pressed' (like in Unreal), toon does a roll. Also, try to adjust animation so it smoothly fits into attack sequence.

I love the sound of this because using the existing enhancement UI was one of the most frustrating things about learning the game.

I do hope you will usability test/play test the new UI extensively with real players before you commit to it, though.

This sounds promising.

As long as I can make my characters the way they are now.

I do feel some enhancements should be cheaper like the racial combat DC enhancements, racial armor enhancements. Pretty much the racial enhancements.

A class enhancement I feel is a bit expensive is the bard inspire bravery, mostly because this is just junk and eats up AP and my warchanter already had to spend 2 feats, 1 of which I could slot something better, on a feat starved build.

Prestige enhancements are vital part of DDO. It's a shame that they were neglected for 3 years and all was left on a promise. That aside, if you guys want to have the best thing out there for multiclassing so your Marketing department can brag about it in ads, focus yourselves on this AND the feats that come with it. I understand that not all feats can be useful at all times, but they should make a difference. Same goes for skills.

One thing that catches the eye of a newbie is that they read Path description and they think - wow... deepwood sniper, master of archery... I just like to try to snipe things... And after in the game they discover that it's total ****. And that it's unfinished. The first impression lead to disappointment. That's just astronomically so not cool! :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

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Looking forward to it :)

Can I suggest the following

Halfling encumbrance I: 0 AP, changes the halfling encumbrance penalty from 50% to 0%

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

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If the work translates into buffing some classes that need it and lays the ground work for more PrE's faster I would have a hard time not thing that is a productive use of development time.

On that note screenshot it or it didn't happen. :D

Can we get some information on the new enhancements or direction you are going with them so we can provide more focused feedback?

I don't mind a reworking of the enhancements UI - but it would be VERY nice if it incorporated the ability to cross-reference feats as so many PRe's have BOTH as requirements.

Actually, I would hope this change would be incorporated into an overall character planner. I can't believe there isn't one now to be honest - and I mean that with no offense to Ron's program, which I love. Given the game's complexity and many layered interactions between skills, equipment, feats, and enhancements, especially at level 20, there SHOULD be some way to really map out your character with 'official' sources. I am sure almost every DDO has lived in the Player's Handbook while playing pnp - I think it is a missing element to the UI now.

If this new interface expedites the release of new prestige class enhancements (Barbarian Occult Slayer, Favored Soul Divine Avenger, Monk Henshin Mystic, etc), I'm all for it.

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Originally Posted by Aashrym

On that note screenshot it or it didn't happen. :D

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All joking aside, could you maybe give us a picture of the new UI? I can totally understand if you can't, but a visual representation would be very helpful in formulating an opinion.

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Originally Posted by LeLoric

Im sure there's some crit rage barbarians gonna be upset.

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indeed

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

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What hurts is the points where it takes 6-AP to move an enhancement... that means sitting for 1-and-one-half of a level before getting to see character advancement. That is... depressing

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

...It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points....

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My only "problem" with this (OK, OK - maybe not my "only" problem) is the "AP spending pre-requisite" ("progress") for some of the enhancements (I personally think having the "you must spend 'x' APs before taking this enhancement" is...shall we say, "less than smart") - especially if these requirements have changed from the original taking of the enhancements. As an example, I am contemplating LR'ing my ranger, but in planning out said LR, there is currently no way for me to re-take only the enhancements I currently have WITHOUT taking a few 'extra' ones to satisfy the "AP progress" requirements (meaning that they have changed from the time I originally took my enhancements). So, if my enhancements are reset, AND there have been changes to the progress requirements (since I orginally took the enhancements), how can I be assured I can get the SAME set of enhancements I currently have? I may end-up being a few APs (maybe even just 1 AP) short because of the 'new' progress requirements.

Possible Solution #1: eliminate the "progress" requirements (go ahead and keep the class/toon level requirements and "must have 'this' enhancement" requirements).

Possible Solution #2: after the re-set, TEMPORARILY suspend the "progress" requirements until AFTER the enhancements have been re-taken (or for a definite amount of time, say, three weeks [just an arbitrary number] after the 're-set') to allow people to "get back what they had". (Of course, some will take this opportunity to completely redo their enhancements - but there is no 'perfect' solution.)

My preference would be possible solution #1 (for several reasons, not the least of which is that I can see possible solution #2 being much more difficult to implement).

{Hear's a can being opened, somewhere in the background...perhaps it contains...worms?}
;)

I like the idea of updating the enhancements UI, but if you force a reset, I will lose one of my favorite characters.

I have a Crit Rage II Barb. Before the ability to get additional character slots, I deleted him (cap was 14 at the time). The day that the ability to undelete characters came out, I paid to have him undeleted. I was then left with a 12 barb / 1 fighter / 1 ranger toon that I couldn't GR, and couldn't reset the enhancements on. I was ok with that, because I knew that I could still make a toon that I would enjoy playing if I was careful. That toon is now capped, with a 3 piece Abashai set and a +3 supreme tome (As I planned on never TRing him). I have been incredibly careful to ensure that I don't lose the enhancement, as it makes that character different to play, and that is what I find the most enjoyment in; making toons that people wouldn't normally make, and making them 'somehow' work.

With a forced enhancement respec, I lose what makes Ognwe- special.

A new treelike UI might be nice - though that mostly works in other games because they're a lot less dense with options... and don't have multiclassing.

Recosting enhancements and new enhancements will be nice. Tread carefully if you move enhancement levels... especially if moved upwards... or face the cries of a thousand multiclassed toons.

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Originally Posted by oberon131313

I like the idea of updating the enhancements UI, but if you force a reset, I will lose one of my favorite characters.

I have a Crit Rage II Barb. Before the ability to get additional character slots, I deleted him (cap was 14 at the time). The day that the ability to undelete characters came out, I paid to have him undeleted. I was then left with a 12 barb / 1 fighter / 1 ranger toon that I couldn't GR, and couldn't reset the enhancements on. I was ok with that, because I knew that I could still make a toon that I would enjoy playing if I was careful. That toon is now capped, with a 3 piece Abashai set and a +3 supreme tome (As I planned on never TRing him). I have been incredibly careful to ensure that I don't lose the enhancement, as it makes that character different to play, and that is what I find the most enjoyment in; making toons that people wouldn't normally make, and making them 'somehow' work.

With a forced enhancement respec, I lose what makes Ognwe- special.

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Maybe just incorporate crit rage into ravager and release that? Not a perfect solution but it may have merit.

I somewhat like the sound of this.

Here's a mockup of an idea for how enhancements could be displayed:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2...hancements.jpg

Note that this has a few made-up enhancements as well as real ones (or real ones as best as I can remember them). I used Comic Sans purely to be evil, if you don't like it, bite me :)

Game wide resetting of enhancements is fine, as long as you have a big warning on the main game screen, as well as a big screen after you've logged in. Otherwise people will flip out.

And please, PLEASE, release the new UI on Lamannia well in advance. Basically enough time for changes to be made, before it hits the live server, if things are as bad as when the game's UI was changed. Even if a Beta version is released a whole update before it hits the Live server (i.e. the UI is set to go Live for U14, put it on Lamannia for the U14 preview, but don't send it to Live until U15).

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Originally Posted by sirgog

I somewhat like the sound of this.

Here's a mockup of an idea for how enhancements could be displayed:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l2...hancements.jpg

Note that this has a few made-up enhancements as well as real ones (or real ones as best as I can remember them). I used Comic Sans purely to be evil, if you don't like it, bite me :)

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Nice, I like it!
But instead of saying 4 per level say each rank, except when you level up, as 4/level may lead to thinking that you get AP in moment of leveling.
Also, add in text search, and its how it could look in game! ;)

This doesn't sound bad so I have no real comments other than change is good, unless those changes suck.

More racial enhancements!

p.s. halfling sneak attack is 20 AP and half-elf sneak attack is 6?!

My Crit Rage II, Kensei I Dwarf just shed a tear :(.

Other than that, I'll welcome any improvements to the enhancement system.

Boo, all the crit rage bowbarians will be reset :(

More PREs please before other enhancements as well as finishing those already implemented :)

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

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This is excellent news! As someone who has helped many hundreds of folks build toons over the 6+ years I've been playing, I'm happy to see you revisit this and clear up some confusion for many (such as what enhancements are required for which PrEs). This should be very well received within the character builders on the forum. Any builder thats worth an ounce of salt will explain that knowing WHY you are making a build decision is paramount to that build's success. Your proposed changes sound like you will really be helping them out...

I would like to know length of time that will occur between rebuilding enhancements and the release of any new PrEs.

Thank you again MadFloyd for the excellent level of communication of late!

New prestiges are enhancements! do them too !

I certainly hope that changes regarding pre reqs for PrE tiers can be made more practical and applicable to our goals. Examples of this are fighter attack boosts and critical accuracy for kensai, or picking up inspired bravery for warchanters. Simply unnecessary stuff.

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Originally Posted by waterboytkd

My big question: are we going to be losing enhancements, as well as gaining new ones? If so, could we get a heads up?

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Some enhancements may perish in the name progress. We're definitely not far enough along to get into that kind of specifics yet. Now is a good time to be giving us general input, though.

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Originally Posted by GoRinNoSho

One thing as a definite heads up, you will probably want to give out feat respecs/lrs etc. for characters with prestiges that require enhancements and feats.

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Good point. We're definitely keeping feat requirements in mind.

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Originally Posted by BDS

Easier way to distinguish what is required to qualify for a pre would be nice. As it is now you have to scroll through tons of enhancements to find you pre (some of which you dont even qualify for, melee with spell dmg lines anyone) or look it up online.

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This is a big deal and we agree it's currently a problem.

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

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I'd like for existing PrEs to actually have a full line not just 1 or 2.

Edit: Spelling singer 3 is most important so do that one first.

Sounds like every other mmo in the world....kinda got a bad feeling about this but i guess time will tell. My biggest concern would be that it locks you into a tree path, meaning that you are now a "Tank" or "DPS" and cant be both. The best part of this game for me and my small, tight nit guild has been the ability to fill many roles and if this prevents that then booo-f'ing-urns.

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Originally Posted by LeLoric

Maybe just incorporate crit rage into ravager and release that? Not a perfect solution but it may have merit.

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I like this idea.

I'm really hardpressed to see how Ravager would have a different play feel to Frenzied Berserker, however.

- +1 crit range: Roughly equivalent to +1 crit multiplier on 19-20 for Khopesh/Greataxe/DorfAxe
- +2 crit range: Roughly equivalent to +3 crit multiplier on 19-20 for Picks

Ravager is IMO a very hard PrE to design, I don't want to see it mirror FB's "+20 damage per swing, +15% damage, gain Supreme Cleave" feel but would rather see it made more unique.

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Originally Posted by Anthios888

More racial enhancements!

p.s. halfling sneak attack is 20 AP and half-elf sneak attack is 6?!

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It's only 6, but they are such a heavy 6 it feels like 20 ;-)



A pass at enhancements to give a lift to some of the weaker racial options would be awesome. And PREs.

Can we do away with the ap spent requirement of enhancements? The level requirement should be enough to limit things as far as acquiring them at a certain time. All the ap spent does is create some rare situations where points must be spent on things that people just don't want or need just to hit a certain ap spent requirement.

I like the idea that the UI will be redone.

But as others have said, crit rage barbarians are going to be very sad (possibly very angry also). You let them keep their enhancements when you changed them as long as they didn't reset them. Its kind of cool to here about the builds running around still sporting these enhancements. It would be a shame to see investment in these characters destroyed not because of a decision that they needed to go, but as collateral damage from a UI change.

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Originally Posted by LeLoric

Maybe just incorporate crit rage into ravager and release that? Not a perfect solution but it may have merit.

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I'd find that to be acceptable. With the changes to Banishing, WOP, and the like, Crit Rage II isn't the overpowered mess it once was. It's great for flavor though.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

I like this idea.

I'm really hardpressed to see how Ravager would have a different play feel to Frenzied Berserker, however.

- +1 crit range: Roughly equivalent to +1 crit multiplier on 19-20 for Khopesh/Greataxe/DorfAxe
- +2 crit range: Roughly equivalent to +3 crit multiplier on 19-20 for Picks

Ravager is IMO a very hard PrE to design, I don't want to see it mirror FB's "+20 damage per swing, +15% damage, gain Supreme Cleave" feel but would rather see it made more unique.

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Many effects that were crit rage breaking have been changed/nerfed anyways (wop, banishing, etc.) A 13-20 esos is a bit concerning though. Also a 13-20 terror could be a bit strong too.

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Originally Posted by rodallec

New prestiges are enhancements! do them too !

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This!!! Please.

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Originally Posted by gloopygloop

As long as the changes to the Enhancements UI don't break Handwraps, I look forward to the update.

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Don' worry, im sure they will, as with everything else :)

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Originally Posted by nibel

bought Sprint Boost IV. It just isn't worthy of 10 APs.

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my ranger took it for at least 4 levels, so some... noobies... take it.

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Originally Posted by nibel

Since it's on topic, I'll give some ideas that probably someone will post while I type:

• Remove ability bonus enhancements. At all. The only thing they do is adding power creep. Instead, add more class/racial enhancements that cover the niche the ability was covering. Eg, rogues could get a reflex enhancement line instead of a dex enhancement line. Hmm. interesting idea. Do you really think they effect (or is it affect?) it that much? if they do, i would hope they still keep at least 1 tier of it, because i often use it to balance out a stat. However, that idea seems quite good.
• Prestige enhancements should be visible all the time for anyone check pre-requisites without needing to check a box. The tree UI should help on this.
  YES YES YES. Please. This is the major reason why i think the re-haul will wonderful. Whenever i do enhancements on my cleric, I always have to have another window open with the Radiant servant prereq's, which aren't the easiest to find (and other classes too)
• Be sure to not hurt gishes. That would be n ice, but are rangers really that under-powered vs Baraarians? I know my ranger, who is not that well equipped, and is a 28 point build, does some quite good damage
• Racial weapon enhancements should be rebalanced. Not much to think about it. 6 AP for +2 damage is too much.
• Remove the iron defender line. Now we have artificers.
  Very much agreed on these two.
• Show a screenshot of a quick draft of what you expect the new UI and new enhancements to be, so we can give more precise feedback. Please, if possible, or put it on Lamannia (Lammania?) well before releasing it, though i can see how you would be unable to do that.

~2¢

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~4¢ in Red!

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Originally Posted by red_cardinal

Tumble - completely useless. First of all, to tumble you need to hold down shift and then press movement key. Change this so when a movement key is 'double pressed' (like in Unreal), toon does a roll. Also, try to adjust animation so it smoothly fits into attack sequence.

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No. There are too many instances where this could go off unintentionally. Make it a key mapable toggle.

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Originally Posted by LeLoric

Many effects that were crit rage breaking have been changed/nerfed anyways (wop, banishing, etc.) A 13-20 esos is a bit concerning though. Also a 13-20 terror could be a bit strong too.

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Hmmm 13-20 X3 eSOS or 15-20 X6 eSOS?

You guys really need to advertise this on the log in (and possibly splash screen) pages when you get ready to do this so that people have a chance to take a screen shot of or write down their current Enhancements. Some players have altoholism and having to remember dozens of character's lists will be a chore.

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Originally Posted by bkasavan

That would be n ice, but are rangers really that under-powered vs Baraarians? I know my ranger, who is not that well equipped, and is a 28 point build, does some quite good damage

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Once upon a time, rangers were the best melee around. +10 damage! Tempest II for multiple attacks. Many skills. Tons of free feats. A dwarven tempest with dual daxes was a monster. Then come the great nerf of TWF.

Everyone agrees that archery is very low DPS compared with a equally-equipped melee. And TWF rangers were nerfed. Add to it more different mobs walking around on endgame (Evil outsiders, Aberrations, Giants, Contructs, Elementals, Undeads, Monstrous Humanoids, Gnolls, Animals... everything appears on epic quests and endgame raids) diminishing the value of Favored Enemy... yep, rangers need a big revamp to be useful again. The only benefit rangers bring to most raids today is a full +5 barkskin if the tank dont have an epic seal of earth.

Paladins are in a similar condition. When Vale/Amrath were endgame, Knight of the Chalice was a no-brainer for any paladin. A paladin on Cannith quests today dont bring much more to the table than a fighter or barbarian. Even less than a ranger (most good paladin buffs are self-only). Fighters are better tanks (because they have more feats, and tanking requires a lot of feats), and barbarians are better DPS.

Obviously, that's just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

The big one I would like to see:

The AP requirement done away with (class level is enough)

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Originally Posted by Chai

Hmmm 13-20 X3 eSOS or 15-20 X6 eSOS?

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Well, obviously 15-20/x6 would win, but that's not the actual comparison at hand.

For 13-20/x3 vs [15-18/x3 + 19-20/x6], the latter still wins. It's about 2 more multiples of base damage per 20 attacks.

Crit Rage is really not a good choice for any build, mechanically speaking. But it would be a shame to see it forcibly removed.

Be very careful how you go about this. It could have a more serious impact on the future of the game than anything we have seen. I cannot stress this enough. This will be a make or break thing for a lot of players.

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Originally Posted by Chai

Hmmm 13-20 X3 eSOS or 15-20 X6 eSOS?

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FB's get 15-18 x3 and 19-20 x6. That's higher in damage than 13-20 x3, but isn't anything like 15-20 x6.

Some on-crit procs do still exist and would favor crit rage over FB (Terror being the really potent one LeLoric pointed out, but at low/med levels even Bodyfeeder is relevant and thanks Voodoo for reminding me of Radiance 2 weapons), but nothing is like the old Crit Rage WoPbarians.


Edit: Oh and I hate grandfathering in old, no-longer-available enhancements like Crit Rage.
Either it is busted and needs to be nerfed (like the stacking tomes from level cap 10 days were, if the rumor is correct), or it is fine and newer players should be able to choose it. Don't leave newer players with forever less build options than vets have.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

FB's get 15-18 x3 and 19-20 x6. That's higher in damage than 13-20 x3, but isn't anything like 15-20 x6.

Some on-crit procs do still exist and would favor crit rage over FB (Terror being the really potent one LeLoric pointed out, but at low/med levels even Bodyfeeder is relevant), but nothing is like the old Crit Rage WoPbarians.

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Radiance would even be pretty hot for its general irrestibility, plus I want to make an epic Whirlwind now.

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Originally Posted by Chai

The big one I would like to see:

The AP requirement done away with (class level is enough)

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I haven't looked at a specific list, but those are there for a reason. Without them, it would be simple to take all of the enhancements you normally take at endgame without taking the low level ones first. While I agree that they should be lowered (any light monk who has to take Improved Concentratjon will probably agree), I don't think they should be done away with entirely.

I would love it if you can disable the sight of some enhancements with a reset option of course. I cant tell you how frustrating it is to constantly see enhancements you will never want.

Do people really take Improved Skill enhancements except when they are needed for something and maybe Intim? Wouldnt mind getting rid of alot of enhancements not just skills like caster bonuses for non-casting classes and melee bonuses for casting classes.

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Originally Posted by pasterqb

Do people really take Improved Skill enhancements except when they are needed for something and maybe Intim? Wouldnt mind getting rid of alot of enhancements not just skills like caster bonuses for non-casting classes and melee bonuses for casting classes.

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I got racial improved balance 4 on my WF wizard to reach the non-failure on titan balance. But I agree, there is few reasons to ever get improved <skill> in most builds. Very few skills really benefit from a +1~4 bonus (Mostly, Intimidate, Balance, and UMD for arties)

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

...We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work....

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Nods happily!

I don't post often, ..... but here it goes. Since certain Dev's have started to contribute, this game has been getting more and more like WoW, other MMO's, and basically being dumbed down. This is a serious issue with many of us who play this game precisely because it is NOT LIKE the above and it requires a bit of thought to play it well.

Given that it was already identified that you are fixing something that is not broke, it stands to reason that a rational person would ask, then why change it?

It is also getting **** discouraging to see things like this, that take a significant amount of resources from developers, being done when there is sooooooo much else that needs to be done. Why not complete the PRE's? How about fixing the bug reporting system? Or here is a novel idea!! How about making more high level content or launch some new epic version of the old content????

This is why people leave. Some of schedule significant amounts of our time to play this game. This is our enjoyment, hobby, whatever. I've been playing since launch, no breaks, dealt with every nerf/change/balance issue and here we go with another one. To say it is not a nerf, then tell folks some enhancements will change.....it is a nerf. You know it, we know it. Will you folks just quite with all this tinkering around the edges and spend some real time developing the future of this game! To spend all this time and significant amount of resources and something the game or the player base doesn't need or hasn't pestered you for for years is really mind boggeling.

This game is on the verge of becoming either completely irrelevant or something completely unique and enjoyable in the world of MMO's. Driving the development into the same UI and other things that are common everywhere else and not finishing the enhancements that are already in at the expense of content does not engender high hopes.

In short, I think this is another death nail in this game. I hope I'm wrong

Having played other games like WOW i think you could just do as they all do make 3 trees one for each pre that have what we MUST take and the an extra tree with the extras

Could we perhaps have categories for the enhancements?

For instance, say I'm working on your stereotypical halfling rogue. There are the racial enhancements, the skill enhancements, etc.
I think it would be sort of nifty if I could uncheck a box, and suddenly all of the skill point enhancements (both racial and class based) get minimized or hidden. Or, say, I pick the "Acrobat" prestige class and everything not related to it is hidden until I say otherwise. I feel that could really streamline things. Most people (IMHO) would probably like a button on their half-elves that makes arcane archer go away while they're under "show unavailable" planning out their characters. Just a thought. I'm excited to see what you guys come up with!

Good. Maybe you'll decrease the relative cost of some of the enhancements. Also, and I'm only speaking for myself here, if you screw this up, I'm fairly certain that it will be the last straw for me...for at least a month...ok a week.

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Originally Posted by pasterqb

I would love it if you can disable the sight of some enhancements with a reset option of course. I cant tell you how frustrating it is to constantly see enhancements you will never want.

Do people really take Improved Skill enhancements except when they are needed for something and maybe Intim? Wouldnt mind getting rid of alot of enhancements not just skills like caster bonuses for non-casting classes and melee bonuses for casting classes.

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This. This was why my mockup had different 'pages' for different categories of skills.

It's great that Warforged have the Brute Fighting enhancement, it's a useful build option (or it was in a previous endgame at least). It's just something I do not want to see in my way when selecting a Warforged Sorc's enhancement options.

Improved Skill enhancements could probably be merged somewhat. Spot and Listen, for example, could be combined into one enhancement that boosts both.

Whatever else you do, please don't take away rogue wand and scroll mastery. I've wanted this added for years, and it's finally here. :)

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ ....

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That would normally be me, but since 1) that UI is one of the "unfinished" things I dislike and 2) you cite augmentation to enhancements; I'm good!

Thank you, and do you have an approximate timeline?

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Originally Posted by mourne

Given that it was already identified that you are fixing something that is not broke, it stands to reason that a rational person would ask, then why change it?
<snip>
In short, I think this is another death nail in this game. I hope I'm wrong

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Wow... point missed. I think you are having a bit of a reaction to the idea of a "tree" structure for enhancements (which we already have, even if it is not a visible tree structure). Just because WOW and other games do it, doesn't make it bad.

The enhancement system may not be broken, but the interface, for lack of a better term, sucks major donkey appendage. In fact, I don't think there many people who would disagree with me there.

Furthermore, the Devs have been adding and modifying enhancements with every other content release since the enhancement system was introduced. It is a messy, frankensteined system that could use some reorganization.

We've been through this process once before with enhancements, and people screamed that it was going to make the game just like WOW and the game would die. The *actual* result was a significant improvement to the game.

I have my fingers crossed....

BUT, I have a feelign that if you guys screw the pooch on this one MANY players will walk... After the last 6-8 months of total and compelte mess... This will be the last straw for many.....

I really do hope this goes well.... :)