So can a dev tell me why to play a savant now?

Ok since we're giving up half an element for a small buff and a few *free* long cooldown and most of them are pretty crappy spells.... can i get an official response on what the thought prossess is that will get people to play savants?

Pre's are supposed to make your characters better, not worse. When compared to any other pre, the downsides arent even close. Some pres have a few downsides, but usually not much, and none of them have downsides that make them hamstring a class to the point where the players have to look at it and go, hmm is it even worth it.

You dont run into a barb and go are you a frenzied berzerker, you dont run into a fighter and say do you have a pre, you dont run into a wiz any more and wonder if they're using one of the 2 pres. With sorcs, it'll be pretty obvious what pre they are, and im gonna go out on a limb here and guess that half the sorcs running around wont have one.

So I'm asking for a direct answer, no mumbo jumbo, no double speak... just a direct answer on why the pre is useful, and how they think it stacks against any other pre. I dont believe this is to much to ask for someone whose been playing on and off as long as I have, and who now is sorely tempted to delete every character I have so that I have no temptation to ever return to this game.

/signed, need explanations!

Meh, just do like everyone will do and don't get the PrE, thats all.

I mean, they just don't care, or don't seems to.

They're answering to peeps saying : '' OmG!!111!!1 I didn't tests it on Lama but savants are op! Didn't do a raid, but OmGgg They can own Harry! . All this based on the fact that a 5 man ToD was done. So they nerf the spells and, after not being sure if its enough, they nerf the curse.

Bah, time to TR into a wizard: DEv wasted time.

In fact, its just like the ice storm pre nerf: OMG ITS NICE!!!111!1!1eleven!!! *Two days later* Dev Nerf

Devs could remove the penalty to opposing element, lower the level boost by 2, and we'd have something useful, although less interesting than when first built on lama

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaxx

Ok since we're giving up half an element for a small buff and a few *free* long cooldown and most of them are pretty crappy spells.... can i get an official response on what the thought prossess is that will get people to play savants?

Pre's are supposed to make your characters better, not worse. When compared to any other pre, the downsides arent even close. Some pres have a few downsides, but usually not much, and none of them have downsides that make them hamstring a class to the point where the players have to look at it and go, hmm is it even worth it.

Snip

---

PrE's are supposed to allow you characters to choose amongst options that make them different than other characters of the same class and level if you choose.

The question you should be asking is why play any of the PrEs, not just this grouping. I do agree this set is pretty bad, but lets look at other PrEs currently available:

Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker
Bard - Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter
Cleric - Radiant Servant
Favored Soul - New PrEs
Fighter - Kensai, Stalwart Defender
Monk - Ninja Spy, Shintao Monk
Paladin - Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice
Ranger - Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest
Rogue - Assassin, Mechanic, Acrobat
Sorcerer - Savant (x4)
Wizard - Archmage, Pale Master


In the exisiting PrE one PrE really outshines the other choices in each class in terms of playability and usefulness at the end game. There is an exception but it makes the assumption that something works that currently is problomatic. As a cleric right now why wouldn't you be a Radiant Servant? Why not be a Warchanter. Sure the other PrE's provide interesting choices but I keep scratching my hear why on earth would you consider X for Epic or TOD on Elite.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaxx

So can a dev tell me why to play a savant now?

---

While I have no doubt they can... I also have no doubt they won't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoldyGopher

PrE's are supposed to allow you characters to choose amongst options that make them different than other characters of the same class and level if you choose.

The question you should be asking is why play any of the PrEs, not just this grouping. I do agree this set is pretty bad, but lets look at other PrEs currently available:

Barbarian - Frenzied Berserker always worth taking, even with a bad feat prereq
Bard - Spellsinger, Virtuoso, Warchanter all of them add to bards, and have their place (virt mostly no feat prereq)
Cleric - Radiant Servant always worth taking, doesn't even have any unpleasant prereqs afaict
Favored Soul - New PrEs worth taking regardless of whether you want melee or caster or even healing/buffing/piking FvS
Fighter - Kensai, Stalwart Defender kensei is only benefits, SD is situationally worthwhile; so long as you're making a tank, it's always good.
Monk - Ninja Spy, Shintao Monk the only 'disadvantage' to either of these is that it doesn't let you take the opposite PrE easily, and which is available is based on a class feat at level 3. both are strong PrEs.
Paladin - Defender of Siberys, Hunter of the Dead, Knight of the Chalice all have their place. DoS is always good if you're taking, HotD is amazing for heal amp builds and provides some nice utility, KotC adds to the most common enemy in the end game. all are good, though not quite as universally good as some other PrEs.
Ranger - Arcane Archer, Deepwood Sniper, Tempest AA is always good for a ranged ranger, DwS is admittedly garbage (but only has first part), tempest is always worthwhile for a melee ranger.
Rogue - Assassin, Mechanic, Acrobat assassin is highest DPS in game and is pretty much always good unless you only fight zombies or something like that, mechanic is not that great but is also pretty near the only way to make an even remotely effective ranged rogue, acrobat has some great abilities that even TWF builds are tempted by over assassin.
Sorcerer - Savant (x4) and here we have the disconnect. see below.
Wizard - Archmage, Pale Master both provide strong choices that add a lot to a wizard.


In the exisiting PrE one PrE really outshines the other choices in each class in terms of playability and usefulness at the end game. There is an exception but it makes the assumption that something works that currently is problomatic. As a cleric right now why wouldn't you be a Radiant Servant? Why not be a Warchanter. Sure the other PrE's provide interesting choices but I keep scratching my hear why on earth would you consider X for Epic or TOD on Elite.

---

comments in red.

none of the other PrEs are nearly so restricting to the character. when you choose a kensei and choose khopesh, you don't get assigned penalties to using scimtars, rapiers, heavy picks, etc. when you choose an assassin and get bonuses to sneak attacks and some death effects, you don't take a penalty to non-sneak attacks. when you choose pale master and gain necromancy abilities and summons, you don't lose your normal summon ability or the ability to use spells from other schools effectively. when you make a KoTC, you don't take any penalties when fighting things other than evil outsiders.

heck, most PrEs go out of their way to give you some more generic bonuses.

what does savant get? low-level damaging SLAs, which i never needed before because until U9 my regular spells worked anyways. a tiny bit of stacking elemental resistance. a tiny improvement to DPS on one enemy every 20 seconds, while still not having the stamina to actually last a full boss fight with meaningful DPS anyways so who cares. oh, right... i almost forgot about the brutal nerfing of opposing element spells, costing you in pretty much every case loss of access to some very nice spells.

about the only savant that doesn't lose out majorly is earth savant (with the exception of losing out on the cyclonic blast spell, which is not nearly as powerful or common to use and can be replaced elsewhere anyways).

assuming i stay sorcerer, my new plan is to ignore the savant PrE entirely. i guess i'm going to have to retire my sorcerer entirely from the harder epics as well, and frankly i probably just won't play the character much in general. i'll probably take the force damage enhancements to whatever point i can work myself up to caring about, and leave all the other elements at zero. oh, and i'll wait for a day when sorcerers get a PrE that isn't an overpriced, worthless pile of suck. maybe some day i'll even be able to apply to challenging epics without getting laughed at... who knows what the future may bring? all i have to do is wait for turbine to take away all the useful abilities of other PrEs and add huge drawbacks to them instead. at the rate things are going, i doubt i'll even have to wait very long.

I was looking forward to acolyte of the skin pre anyway. looks like i still am.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaxx

and who now is sorely tempted to delete every character I have so that I have no temptation to ever return to this game.

---

You can always get them back via character un-delete. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trillea

/signed, need explanations!

---

Because it makes fire casters useless ... the only reason for this change is to nerf fire wall which is stupid because right now end game has no place for fire wall anyway.

Anyone who goes fire sorc is gimped for most of the high level content.

But dispite how horrible the small cost spells are .... the spell pass if it works against raid bosses makes lighting spec and cold spec casters stupidly over powered.

And force spec'd pale masters are gods. I can do a 1280 point disintegrate on lama... and chain missile and magic missile are ******** could have sworn i saw a crit the other day for over 600. The wind spells are also often untyped ...
now if they would only add neg energy to the force manipulation line and there would be no reason to play anything but a pale master wizard ever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaxx View Post
and who now is sorely tempted to delete every character I have so that I have no temptation to ever return to this game.

---

I feel you brother ... i used to play 3-6 hours every night ... since my last stunt on lama last weekend ... i have played a total of 2 hours all week. Already looking for a new game to play ... its sad when i hate playing my favorite game so much that i am more willing to play champions online then DDO.

its a sad day for this game. Of course when they drop to the brink of bankrupt again ... they can always turn the game free to play .. .oh wait they already did that .... ??? what are they gonna do this time to bring the game back from the dead?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Drfirewater79

Because it makes fire casters useless ... the only reason for this change is to nerf fire wall which is stupid because right now end game has no place for fire wall anyway.

Anyone who goes fire sorc is gimped for most of the high level content.

But dispite how horrible the small cost spells are .... the spell pass if it works against raid bosses makes lighting spec and cold spec casters stupidly over powered.

And force spec'd pale masters are gods. I can do a 1280 point disintegrate on lama... and chain missile and magic missile are ******** could have sworn i saw a crit the other day for over 600. The wind spells are also often untyped ...
now if they would only add neg energy to the force manipulation line and there would be no reason to play anything but a pale master wizard ever.



I feel you brother ... i used to play 3-6 hours every night ... since my last stunt on lama last weekend ... i have played a total of 2 hours all week. Already looking for a new game to play ... its sad when i hate playing my favorite game so much that i am more willing to play champions online then DDO.

its a sad day for this game. Of course when they drop to the brink of bankrupt again ... they can always turn the game free to play .. .oh wait they already did that .... ??? what are they gonna do this time to bring the game back from the dead?

---

I'm actually toying with the idea of looking at Everquest 1 again just for old time's sake. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Memnir

While I have no doubt they can... I also have no doubt they won't.

---

Oh i highly doubt I'm to receive an answer either, but i feal I'm owed one, along with the rest of us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Quarterling

You can always get them back via character un-delete. :)

---

I've spent the last 5 years on and off forkin over money to turbine, I dont think I'll be doin that if I decide to go

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoldyGopher

PrE's are supposed to allow you characters to choose amongst options that make them different than other characters of the same class and level if you choose.

The question you should be asking is why play any of the PrEs, not just this grouping. I do agree this set is pretty bad, but lets look at other PrEs currently available:

In the exisiting PrE one PrE really outshines the other choices in each class in terms of playability and usefulness at the end game. There is an exception but it makes the assumption that something works that currently is problomatic. As a cleric right now why wouldn't you be a Radiant Servant? Why not be a Warchanter. Sure the other PrE's provide interesting choices but I keep scratching my hear why on earth would you consider X for Epic or TOD on Elite.

---

The thing is all those pre's make their classes better (except perhaps deepwood, and even deepwood makes them slightly better), they all have a good upside and a slight downside be it feat cost, ap cost. There really isnt any of them that take away from a character (the am sla's do, but you have a choice about taking them).

Savants all but eliminate an entire element choice for you. Now this was just fine with the decent and fast slas and the ramping up curses, but now... Yes the curse is powerful, but it takes a while to ramp up by yourself... and lets not forget MASSIVE DOWNSIDE in the opsite element, combine that with high ap cost and a feat cost on a sorc...

The posatives barley cover the negatives, and thats not what the pre's have been about, so why is this done to the sorc, and lets not forget the hit that the AM sla's took. I'm not even getting into the spell changes, thats not what I'm talking about here. I simply think we deserve to know why the devs think that this pre is good for the class. Why we should take it, stacked up to the other pres its worthless.

So once again, I've come and gone from this game over the years, 6 months here, 3 months away, 4 months here, 5 months away, 6 months back... etc. I've kept comming back for one reason, I've always enjoyed the basics of the game. While I've railed at some of the changes over the years.. many of the changes over the years, and I've left the game for a time over these changes in the past this just seems different. The way the games been going recently just doesnt seem right to me. I still enjoy the ACS (active combat system), and ease of loot restrictions. I dont mind raiding but replacing gear every 4 months can get anoying. I'm really on the verge of just up and going, and never retruning, and I know for a fact I'm far from alone in these thoughts with the way this has gone on lamania.

I want to know why they think this is a good addition to the class. I think that we're owed that. I also want to see if the devs are still on a track that will continue to evolve this game or if its headed off down these new tracks it seems to be on.

I highly doubt that this will receive any answer, and even if it does it will be something along the lines of *read by a dev* which doesnt help in the slightest. This is simpy a question that needs asked and answered. If they cant answer it, I think we know where the pre stands then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaxx

and lets not forget MASSIVE DOWNSIDE in the opsite element, combine that with high ap cost and a feat cost on a sorc....

---

Xaxx on your sorc now on live what spells do you have/use? I only ask this because I don't see a massive downside in the opposite element being that big of a deal. I don't know too many sorcs that dable in all 4 elements. Especially with the way the spells are now.

I can definitely see not taking fire because it is basically worthless at end game where water is much better. On the flip side I don't see too many people taking water and gimping the few fire spells they do use...but you never know.

That leaves air and earth. Taking one to gimp the other and still being able to do decent damage in fire/cold doesn't seem to be a big deal. How many sorcs or even wizards are there on live that truly use acid or electric spells? Maybe there will be more now that the spells have had some overall but then again I highly doubt it.

IMHO we are going to see air/earth savants (mostly air for the abundant step) and they are going to just continue to use their fire/cold spells similar to what sorcs do now.

It is truly remarkable how badly they mucked up, what was originally, a great addition. The Savants were creating a rich diversity of Sorcs. I was just bragging to a friend the other day how awesome it would be to have three different Sorcs in a group and they all could of been totally different. When have we every been able to say that about a class in DDO? Yes, there were a few spells that needed balancing but to utterly obliterate the Savant was not the solution. It was obvious that some spells were overpowered but to nerf an entire line obsolete is just poor game management.

The first mistake was the total overhaul of the arcane spell system while also adding new arcane PREs. It is hard to find balance and synergy when you are mucking up both ends of the balance beam at the same time. Amateur move! Given how long Turbine has been doing this they should have known better. **** poor planning by someone. Tsk tsk!

Now that they have made a huge mess of everything they are trying to overcompensate. Acid spells a little too powerful? Let's nerf the entire lot! Reduce damage, increase spell cost, AND increase cooldowns! It is a sad statement that the only comments about these updates that the devs listen to are Youtube videos of a few power gamers displaying their impressive aptitude for playing DDO.

**Note to Devs: Just because a few people are able to do something does not mean everyone can. Just because a few people are able to BRIEFLY stack spell buffs (that should and have been fixed) does not mean everyone can or will. It would be far wiser to model and balance a game that fits the play style of the majority of players. If a few elite players wish to ruin their experience thru meta-gaming and power playing, LET THEM! And I say this not to disparage those power gamers; More power to them! I only say it because if the devs always try to find balance with extremes they will find that most everyone has been knocked down in the constant shuffles.

Im not a dev but I have a reason why you should take the PRE.

Everyone says they want more of a challenge and less easy buttons right? Well here you go. Fire Savant is the "Hard" button for endgame. DOOO EEEEET!!!!! Take the challenge!

The savant rage in this thread is hilarious. Seems like some people have spent too much time quintuple stacking curses onto those crystals for 6 figure damage, and think it should apply to the rest of the game too.

omg, my opposite element is DESTROYED!

How many of those opposite elements do you actually have on your spelllist, ignoring Fire Wall and Polar Ray?

Hmm, whatever element you are using most is getting a substantial upgrade.
Your ToD sets are giving an actual bonus.
The requirements are things that you probably already have, aside from redoing enhancements because of the new layout.
Maybe you even get to branch out into some new spells that you hadn't tried before.
The curse can't be stacked! You'll just have to muddle through somehow while inflicting 15% more damage than before.

Every sorc has firewall. Every sorc has polar ray. How boring. With Savants, maybe we'll finally see some variety.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matuse

How many of those opposite elements do you actually have on your spelllist, ignoring Fire Wall and Polar Ray?

Hmm, whatever element you are using most is getting a substantial upgrade.
Your ToD sets are giving an actual bonus.
The requirements are things that you probably already have, aside from redoing enhancements because of the new layout.
Maybe you even get to branch out into some new spells that you hadn't tried before.
The curse can't be stacked! You'll just have to muddle through somehow while inflicting 15% more damage than before.

Every sorc has firewall. Every sorc has polar ray. How boring. With Savants, maybe we'll finally see some variety.

---

I have(had before I TR'd into wiz to specifically get ready for this PrE) a LOT:

Polar Ray and Firewall notwithstanding, I have:

Scorching Ray and Frost Lance
Cone of Cold and Delayed Blast Fireball
I also carried Incindiary Cloud though I considered myself ice-specced.

As for the curse not stacking, it should, otherwise it is a waste of time and SP. The 15% extra damage that it provides is heavily outweighed by other spells that you could throw into the rotation - as it is, it is a wasted possibility.

Add into this that the ToD sets are apparently NOT working as intended, this is a complete FAIL of an update for those that were heavily looking forward to this PrE such as myself.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoldyGopher

PrE's are supposed to allow you characters to choose amongst options that make them different than other characters of the same class and level if you choose.

The question you should be asking is why play any of the PrEs, not just this grouping.


In the exisiting PrE one PrE really outshines the other choices in each class in terms of playability and usefulness at the end game.

Sure the other PrE's provide interesting choices but I keep scratching my hear why on earth would you consider X for Epic or TOD on Elite.

---

Not everyone is focused on running epic level content. Newer folks like to have different choices and builds that just won't be effective for epics as they currently are, but are a lot of fun to play levels 1-19.


One of our newest static group members was excited to make his paladin a Hunter of the Dead. At first I thought "What??? But EVERYONE on the forums thinks that pre either stinks or is much worse than KotC!" I bit my tongue and said nothing. And now that we have been running more than half of our quests in Necropolis and none involving devils or demons, he's loving his decision and really enjoying his character.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Postumus

Not everyone is focused on running epic level content. Newer folks like to have different choices and builds that just won't be effective for epics as they currently are, but are a lot of fun to play levels 1-19.


One of our newest static group members was excited to make his paladin a Hunter of the Dead. At first I thought "What??? But EVERYONE on the forums thinks that pre either stinks or is much worse than KotC!" I bit my tongue and said nothing. And now that we have been running more than half of our quests in Necropolis and none involving devils or demons, he's loving his decision and really enjoying his character.

---

I used HotD because I liked have 20% healing amp from being human (first two enhancements), and another 10-20% healing amp from HotD (10% per tier). I also liked being immune to energy drain and having an sp-free Restoration that I could toss out to conserve the Cleric's blue bar a tiny bit (pre-RS). I switched to KotC as I got into the later levels, and started farming Shroud.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaxx

who now is sorely tempted to delete every character I have so that I have no temptation to ever return to this game.

---

Heh, after five years.... THIS is the change that's going to make you quit?

Let's offer some feedback to the devs without going crazy...

They probably swung the pendulum too far in one direction... Let's see if we can get them to swing it back a little...

They've been pretty responsive to feedback for the last couple of weeks on Update 9... let's offer some more without going ape-**** crazy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matuse

With Savants, maybe we'll finally see some variety.

---

The variety will be that sorcs will be tring into wizzies, melees or being deleted. The playerbase always gravitates towards the effective, which a caster with low dc's and limitied ability to cast opposing school spells with no significant benefit will not be.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darkrok

I'm actually toying with the idea of looking at Everquest 1 again just for old time's sake. :)

---

We should all log onto one of the zek servers and have it out.

Then join some time period based guilds who are still raiding content from the old expansions, suspending their xp so they can still play in that specific time period / expansion with the same gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thrudh

Heh, after five years.... THIS is the change that's going to make you quit?

Let's offer some feedback to the devs without going crazy...

They probably swung the pendulum too far in one direction... Let's see if we can get them to swing it back a little...

They've been pretty responsive to feedback for the last couple of weeks on Update 9... let's offer some more without going ape-**** crazy

---

I, for one, agree this is the straw that broke the camel's back. I just cancelled my VIP sub, and if this goes live as-is, I may stop playing altogether. This is the PrE that I have been looking forward to since they announced what the PrEs for the classes would be. This is what I wanted to make my main character, and while I don't necessarily want her to be OVERpowered, I don't want her to be nerfed either, and that's what this PrE as it stands is.

Well... lets see....

You get discounts to a few basic spells.

This is strictly a benefit

You get a debuff that grants you additional damage on your spells

Quote:

---

This is strictly a benefit

---

You gain additional spell like powers not available on the spell list

Quote:

---

This is strictly a benefit

---

You gain additional caster levels with various spells

Quote:

---

This is strictly a benefit

---

You loose caster level on spells of an opposing element

Quote:

---

This can be avoided by not using spells of that element so it is effectively a reduced spell selection, a penalty but one all sorcerers essentially wrestle with since they have a mostly fixed spell list.

---

So there you go, if you want those benefits you spend the AP on them, if not, then you don't. I suspect nearly every sorcerer that wants to do damage casting will select one of these.

The notion that you would quit because you don't want to take a PRE strikes me as crazy.

I would've been fine with a tiny nerf to a few savants, but something like this wrecks the whole PRE

Yes, the new savant PrEs are terrible, but guys, the devs don't have to stop and respond to every single rage thread on the boards. If you don't like them, don't take them. Go ahead and clearly explain in one of the many MANY pre-existing threads what you think is wrong with the PrEs, but threads like this are completely unnecessary, and frankly, a bit rude.

...people say they're quitting because a new thing was nerfed before it became live? What if you were told that Savants let you cast a single curse that doubled incoming elemental damage, then they changed their mind to balance it and lowered the debuff before they even coded it?

The product was modified before it was made available. That's a process of developing. This happens all the time. The only change is that players knew about and tested it before hand. And hey, based on new player input, they might raise the debuff but still disallow stacking. Like one tick of 25% vulnerability (that's my suggestion btw).

So stop nerdraging about getting a neat new toy that could be better. And consider that you still get:-

• Ability to cast CL 28 Polar Rays
• 15% increase in damage before all other maths are taken into account
• Low cost SLA's
• Earthgrab
• Burnination
• Abundant step
• Jack Frost's Molestation
• Higher party DPS with elemental weapons (LitII. 75% increase in LitII meant and Air Savant could have completely replaced a bard on lower-DR bosses. Now it can't)
• And everything the wonderful post above me said

So stop the /cry and play with your new toy. It's not as good as the old one, but you can still enjoy it if you try. There's a lot of boring PrE's that are still good, and this is one that at least has some fun features.

Debuff should be a bit higher though, or at least have a far lower cooldown.

And remove echoes of power after level 12 so SLA's don't have to be nerfed. Absolute worst change in what is IMO a good update.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by memnir

while I Have No Doubt They can... I Also Have No Doubt They won't.

---

+1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sigtrent

You gain additional caster levels with various spells

---

If they ever fix this to apply to all the spells it should then we are golden...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chette

Yes, the new savant PrEs are terrible, but guys, the devs don't have to stop and respond to every single rage thread on the boards. If you don't like them, don't take them. Go ahead and clearly explain in one of the many MANY pre-existing threads what you think is wrong with the PrEs, but threads like this are completely unnecessary, and frankly, a bit rude.

---

I must ask how this is rude to you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kamo

I must ask how this is rude to you?

---

Because there are already multiple threads on savants, yet people seem to think they are owed a personal response from a dev for every complaint that they have. Maybe the devs would be better off spending their time assessing the classes strengths and weaknesses than responding to umpteen different threads.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chette

Because there are already multiple threads on savants, yet people seem to think they are owed a personal response from a dev for every complaint that they have. Maybe the devs would be better off spending their time assessing the classes strengths and weaknesses than responding to umpteen different threads.

---

While this is true, I still see how this offends you personally. Although the complete lack of Dev response AT ALL is ticking me off more than a little.

Yo dawg, i herd you like nerfs...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trillea

While this is true, I still see how this offends you personally. Although the complete lack of Dev response AT ALL is ticking me off more than a little.

---

I never said I was offended.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chette

I never said I was offended.

---

Most people don't say something is rude unless they are offended.

This pretty much sums it up right here...

http://i.imgur.com/bVeE4.jpg
(via Reddit)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trillea

Most people don't say something is rude unless they are offended.

---

Really? I am perfectly capable of observing when I believe somebody is being discourteous to another. It need not be directed at me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chette

Because there are already multiple threads on savants, yet people seem to think they are owed a personal response from a dev for every complaint that they have. Maybe the devs would be better off spending their time assessing the classes strengths and weaknesses than responding to umpteen different threads.

---

They need only respond to 1. We are but giving them options to choose from.
They wont respond any and we know this. They like having a job more than giving us a stright answer.

It is more a nerf than anything else lets give you -9 lvls on all opposing spells that works perfect lets give you the +3 lvls to element x is not working for every 1% gained a 2% loss would be fair IMHO but now its 3% for 10%

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chette

Because there are already multiple threads on savants, yet people seem to think they are owed a personal response from a dev for every complaint that they have. Maybe the devs would be better off spending their time assessing the classes strengths and weaknesses than responding to umpteen different threads.

---

The devs would definitely be better off if they discussed the changes with the player base. DDO is a collaborative effort - without devs we may as well be in a chat room, without players they may as well be in a comp sci class. If you want to talk about rudeness, the message that players' concerns aren't even worth a forum post in response is extremely rude.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Qezuzu

...people say they're quitting because a new thing was nerfed before it became live? What if you were told that Savants let you cast a single curse that doubled incoming elemental damage, then they changed their mind to balance it and lowered the debuff before they even coded it?

The product was modified before it was made available. That's a process of developing. This happens all the time. The only change is that players knew about and tested it before hand. And hey, based on new player input, they might raise the debuff but still disallow stacking. Like one tick of 25% vulnerability (that's my suggestion btw).

So stop nerdraging about getting a neat new toy that could be better. And consider that you still get:-

• Ability to cast CL 28 Polar Rays
• 15% increase in damage before all other maths are taken into account
• Low cost SLA's
• Earthgrab
• Burnination
• Abundant step
• Jack Frost's Molestation
• Higher party DPS with elemental weapons (LitII. 75% increase in LitII meant and Air Savant could have completely replaced a bard on lower-DR bosses. Now it can't)
• And everything the wonderful post above me said

So stop the /cry and play with your new toy. It's not as good as the old one, but you can still enjoy it if you try. There's a lot of boring PrE's that are still good, and this is one that at least has some fun features.

Debuff should be a bit higher though, or at least have a far lower cooldown.

And remove echoes of power after level 12 so SLA's don't have to be nerfed. Absolute worst change in what is IMO a good update.

---

Sorry but no dice Lamania is a PREVIEW server they have said this many times it is not a test server thats what mourlands is for why should we continue to test things for them they should have this figured out right? if lamania isn't a "Test" server.

How do all these things make it to the Preview server and don't get fixed or changed before then? Whats the point of a test server if they don't test things but we do on lam and live?

Preview is for checking out content catching any glaring bugs in quest design so they don't make it to live which they tend to do anyway.


I was mad about the intimidate changes because my intimisorc that doesn't swing a weapon would be screwed people talked about it and convinced me that the Savant will allow me to do enough damage to maintain aggro. Now they screw the saving grace of my fav char again i have very low hopes that my char will beable to keep aggro with just one curse and most of the good damage spells besides polar ray being negated by mantles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lifespawn

Sorry but no dice Lamania is a PREVIEW server they have said this many times it is not a test server thats what mourlands is for why should we continue to test things for them they should have this figured out right? if lamania isn't a "Test" server.

How do all these things make it to the Preview server and don't get fixed or changed before then? Whats the point of a test server if they don't test things but we do on lam and live?

Preview is for checking out content catching any glaring bugs in quest design so they don't make it to live which they tend to do anyway.

---

So if devs are made aware that LitII+Air Savant curses make a broken weapon even more broken, they're not allowed to change it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Possible Future Response

They should have thought of that before they put it on the test server.

---

Well they didn't. It's either not being able to change the update because "it's supposed to be a preview server" and releasing the update now, or fix it beforehand and keep the game more balanced.

And:

Everyone, whether or not Savants were better before, the PrE still gives you a considerably higher amount of spell DPS and sustainability. Your DPS is as high if not higher than melees, and you can keep it up in the long haul.

I'm still puzzled by why they gave Pale Masters even more power and abilities in an update that was supposed be dedicated to Sorcs. Seriously Pale Masters have gotten more powerful with every update since they've come out. And now they can one shot stuff in epics with their necro dcs. Pretty obvious what class the Devs play. Savants better get the same treatment over the next 7 updates. Instead of adding more Pale Master Forms you guys should be adding elemental forms for Sorcerers.

Because you can?

All the shrouds from the PMs will lag out the server and cause madness, UTTER MADNESS

has everyone overlooked this line in the savant pre?

Your electrical resistance grows to 10 points and you now BYPASS! 10 points of electrical resistance of opponents.

so unless they remove this line i still think savant is pretty good now 5-15 dmg my sound like very little but when you use any dmg over time effects like firewall or acid you will be doing more dmg with every tick

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vengeance777

I'm still puzzled by why they gave Pale Masters even more power and abilities in an update that was supposed be dedicated to Sorcs. Seriously Pale Masters have gotten more powerful with every update since they've come out. And now they can one shot stuff in epics with their necro dcs. Pretty obvious what class the Devs play. Savants better get the same treatment over the next 7 updates. Instead of adding more Pale Master Forms you guys should be adding elemental forms for Sorcerers.

---

Sorcs can also one shot many of the same epic mobs on lammania. The weakness had nothign to do with this.

To most everyone overeacting in this thread:

Those saying they would not take the savant prestige are being completely childish about this. I'm not gonna drive the new car you just gave me because you told me it was gonna be a better car kinda responses. It is still a large increase in damage output to your spells. Weakness stacking was only beneficial in a few fights in the game anyways and for those fights it was OP allowing for extremely high dps numbers, it does very little to make the pre less powerful in 90% of the game.

Responses like those in this thread are unproductive. How many of those complaining have even tested them. These are just kneejerk reactions that cause devs to not want to release information early so it's not held over their heads when they decide to change it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeLoric

Those saying they would not take the savant prestige are being completely childish about this. I'm not gonna drive the new car you just gave me because you told me it was gonna be a better car kinda responses.

---

If I have a Audi (TR'd wiz), and for a long time you have been saying that you would be buying me a Lamborghini (PrE as it was before the nerf) but you end up buying me a Yugo (PrE as it is now), you expect me to use the Yugo?

No.

But considering you dont have a car now...(if you are a sorc)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaxx

Ok since we're giving up half an element for a small buff and a few *free* long cooldown and most of them are pretty crappy spells.... can i get an official response on what the thought prossess is that will get people to play savants?

Pre's are supposed to make your characters better, not worse. When compared to any other pre, the downsides arent even close. Some pres have a few downsides, but usually not much, and none of them have downsides that make them hamstring a class to the point where the players have to look at it and go, hmm is it even worth it.

You dont run into a barb and go are you a frenzied berzerker, you dont run into a fighter and say do you have a pre, you dont run into a wiz any more and wonder if they're using one of the 2 pres. With sorcs, it'll be pretty obvious what pre they are, and im gonna go out on a limb here and guess that half the sorcs running around wont have one.

So I'm asking for a direct answer, no mumbo jumbo, no double speak... just a direct answer on why the pre is useful, and how they think it stacks against any other pre. I dont believe this is to much to ask for someone whose been playing on and off as long as I have, and who now is sorely tempted to delete every character I have so that I have no temptation to ever return to this game.

---

I take it you weren't here when the Pale Master prestige was first released?

For a moment, I thought I was necro'ing a thread from then...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n

But considering you dont have a car now...(if you are a sorc)

---

Yes you do, and it's better than the Yugo, because it's more versatile. You give up a LOT of versatility for this Pre, and in its current state you do not get enough back to make up for it. Sorcs would be better off with 1 more update with no PrE than the current version.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by B0ltdrag0n

But considering you dont have a car now...(if you are a sorc)

---

on the contrary, my sorcerer worked perfectly fine before this update. by which i mean, before they took away my shorter cooldowns, and made my save DCs which were previously good enough instead become worthless in any difficult epics. right now, i can go into pretty near any epic quest on my sorcerer and contribute. next patch? you seriously think there's a lot of people standing around thinking "you know what i need? unsustainable DPS, with a side of really pathetic sustainable DPS! yeah, that's it! and also, i sure hope whoever hits this LFM can't CC worth ****, too!"

between all the changes they've made, my sorcerer is going to be less useful than before the patch. at least when we had the savants, there was some chance people would be glad to have me along because i'd be able to nuke the boss down, and maybe even the occasional nuke while questing so long as i'm careful to [edit: not] run out of SP.

instead, the simple fact is that now my CC is [edit: not] going to be good enough to run the same content i'm running right now, my sustainable damage is only moving up at all because previously it consisted of casting a single persistent AOE per fight and now there's an option to have SLAs (provided you don't mind gimping your options), and my DPS vs single target is basically unchanged from what it could be before this update.

if i gave a **** about 26d6 polar rays, i would already have 25d6 polar rays. right now, it simply isn't worth investing the effort into getting the gear to boost your spell DPS, because it just doesn't do enough DPS for long enough to matter. in the new update... guess what... it still won't be worth the effort. when we had full elemental weakness curse, there was a lot of promise, because it was a big deal. it was something that would actually allow us, after 80 seconds of prep time, do some real damage. it was something that would actually maybe cause people to let more than 2 arcanes into their raids ever.

instead, my previous sustainable DPS is being nerfed, and in order to get the new sustainable DPS i have to take a PrE that costs way too much and adds way too little, and my previous CC is becoming less valuable.

the *actual* situation is more like we previously had a car that was working just fine, then the rules changed and the car was no longer street legal, but we were promised a new car that was different but still awesome to compensate. then, they took away both our old car and our new car, and gave us a scooter. and apparently, according to some, we're supposed to be happy about that.

simply put, the one thing that was actually going to be left to sorcerers (barring the ones with 3 wizard past lives and a bard past life and every last scrap of DC-improving gear in the game) after U9 was released was significantly powerful spell DPS. now they're taking that away too, leaving us with... err... oh. nothing... that's right. we get to be second-class citizens to the wizards.

we got promised new toys because our old ones were getting thrown in the garbage, and instead we're getting crappy versions of our old toys that won't work as well. **** right i'm ****ed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Qezuzu

So if devs are made aware that LitII+Air Savant curses make a broken weapon even more broken, they're not allowed to change it?



Well they didn't. It's either not being able to change the update because "it's supposed to be a preview server" and releasing the update now, or fix it beforehand and keep the game more balanced.

And:

Everyone, whether or not Savants were better before, the PrE still gives you a considerably higher amount of spell DPS and sustainability. Your DPS is as high if not higher than melees, and you can keep it up in the long haul.

---

ya so lets just scrap the whole savant curse thing because of one weapon? how about they just make lightning strikes not get enhanced?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaid314

on the contrary, my sorcerer worked perfectly fine before this update. by which i mean, before they took away my shorter cooldowns, and made my save DCs which were previously good enough instead become worthless in any difficult epics. right now, i can go into pretty near any epic quest on my sorcerer and contribute. next patch? you seriously think there's a lot of people standing around thinking "you know what i need? unsustainable DPS, with a side of really pathetic sustainable DPS! yeah, that's it! and also, i sure hope whoever hits this LFM can't CC worth ****, too!"

between all the changes they've made, my sorcerer is going to be less useful than before the patch. at least when we had the savants, there was some chance people would be glad to have me along because i'd be able to nuke the boss down, and maybe even the occasional nuke while questing so long as i'm careful to [edit: not] run out of SP.

instead, the simple fact is that now my CC is [edit: not] going to be good enough to run the same content i'm running right now, my sustainable damage is only moving up at all because previously it consisted of casting a single persistent AOE per fight and now there's an option to have SLAs (provided you don't mind gimping your options), and my DPS vs single target is basically unchanged from what it could be before this update.

if i gave a **** about 26d6 polar rays, i would already have 25d6 polar rays. right now, it simply isn't worth investing the effort into getting the gear to boost your spell DPS, because it just doesn't do enough DPS for long enough to matter. in the new update... guess what... it still won't be worth the effort. when we had full elemental weakness curse, there was a lot of promise, because it was a big deal. it was something that would actually allow us, after 80 seconds of prep time, do some real damage. it was something that would actually maybe cause people to let more than 2 arcanes into their raids ever.

instead, my previous sustainable DPS is being nerfed, and in order to get the new sustainable DPS i have to take a PrE that costs way too much and adds way too little, and my previous CC is becoming less valuable.

the *actual* situation is more like we previously had a car that was working just fine, then the rules changed and the car was no longer street legal, but we were promised a new car that was different but still awesome to compensate. then, they took away both our old car and our new car, and gave us a scooter. and apparently, according to some, we're supposed to be happy about that.

simply put, the one thing that was actually going to be left to sorcerers (barring the ones with 3 wizard past lives and a bard past life and every last scrap of DC-improving gear in the game) after U9 was released was significantly powerful spell DPS. now they're taking that away too, leaving us with... err... oh. nothing... that's right. we get to be second-class citizens to the wizards.

we got promised new toys because our old ones were getting thrown in the garbage, and instead we're getting crappy versions of our old toys that won't work as well. **** right i'm ****ed.

---

Your sorc will be better with the prestige. You will have significantly powerful dps. The stacking weaknesses was the least of the tools that gave that except in very rare situations.

Sorry, I can be really blinded here, but I don't understand how Savants are a bad choice in their current state.

Lets say I choose Earth Savant. I get some free acid resistance, bypass acid resistance, get a few cheap spells (if you don't like the spells, just don't use them), deal more damage with most acid spells, get a stronger Flesh to Stone, get bonus hp, and also get a nice hold with a high DC. The downside? Not casting electricity spells. Who cares? I think I can go well with only acid+fire+cold.

Sure, we can complain the nerfs were unnecessary, the SLAs have too long cooldowns, curses do not stack anymore, etc. But this really makes the prestige a bad choice? Take a look at my list above. The prestige is still seriously powerful IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trillea

Yes you do, and it's better than the Yugo, because it's more versatile. You give up a LOT of versatility for this Pre, and in its current state you do not get enough back to make up for it. Sorcs would be better off with 1 more update with no PrE than the current version.

---

Not even close. You gain dps with one element and get to choose another of three and could even do a 4th but it's pretty weak due to being opposite element. Before you had 2 elements but no choice as to which ones you preferred. The fact that fire/cold were by far the best is irrelevant you had no choice. Spell changes have made any of the element lines as well as force line good viable dps routes. Versatility comes from choices and you now have that. I've tested three of the 4 savants on lammania pretty extensively now and never really used the weakness ability and it's pretty clear to me that versatility of sorcs has gone up extensively.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lppmor

Sorry, I can be really blinded here, but I don't understand how Savants are a bad choice in their current state.

Lets say I choose Earth Savant. I get some free acid resistance, bypass acid resistance, get a few cheap spells (if you don't like the spells, just don't use them), deal more damage with most acid spells, get a stronger Flesh to Stone, get bonus hp, and also get a nice hold with a high DC. The downside? Not casting electricity spells. Who cares? I think I can go well with only acid+fire+cold.

Sure, we can complain the nerfs were unnecessary, the SLAs have too long cooldowns, curses do not stack anymore, etc. But this really makes the prestige a bad choice? Take a look at my list above. The prestige is still seriously powerful IMO.

---

^ this. well said man +1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lifespawn

ya so lets just scrap the whole savant curse thing because of one weapon? how about they just make lightning strikes not get enhanced?

---

One very, very common weapon. It's not just about the LitII's either. 75% increase in damage instantly with 5 sorcs is just huge. Should be put to 25% non stacking.

But it doesn't matter. The curse still gives you 15% damage. You still get higher damage from CL increases. You still have SLA's. You still have the TierIII abilities.

And Sorcerers are not Wizards. If you want high DC's roll wizard, and if you want better, more sustainable spell DPS go Sorc. But Sorcerers can still get high spell DC's if they tried, they do give up a lot more though.

The PrE is very powerful. Just forget about the curses for a moment and look at everything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trillea

If I have a Audi (TR'd wiz), and for a long time you have been saying that you would be buying me a Lamborghini (PrE as it was before the nerf) but you end up buying me a Yugo (PrE as it is now), you expect me to use the Yugo?

No.

---

I think expecting the lamborghini versus something more similar to the audi is the problem most people have here. Yes this pre is comparable to either wizard one. They do different things but in terms of power they are all there. Sorc savant prestige is still a large boost in power versus what they have currently.

And I have a TRed Wizard, from bard, which I vow to TR again into Wizard if I get a +4 INT tome to max my DC's (sans completionist). But now I'm inclined to TR into Sorcerer if I get a +4 CHA tome...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeLoric

Your sorc will be better with the prestige. You will have significantly powerful dps. The stacking weaknesses was the least of the tools that gave that except in very rare situations.

---

no, my sorcerer *won't* be better with the prestige. my sorcerer will be better with not having to blow a feat on something useless. my sorcerer will be better with not taking a -9 CL to opposing spells, and yes it is a significant cost (water and fire should be obvious to anyone, air savant loses flesh to stone vs anything with SR, earth loses the least (cyclonic blast is the specific spell i'm looking at), but also gains very little.

heck, if i don't take the savant, i don't even have to blow all those AP on maxed out crit enhancements that aren't worth it. 9 AP will max out an entire elemental line as far as i care to bother with, leaving me with lots of other options for using my AP on things that *don't* cost me versatility and options. the whole reason being able to trade spells and having more spell slots on a wizard was never a big deal is specifically that lack of options; losing even more options gives me even *less* useful stuff to load up my spell slots with. that's just not something i'm looking for in a sorcerer right now.

the DPS vs trash on a sorcerer is going to be drastically overshadowed by the DPS of a melee vs trash, unless i blow everything on the trash and have nothing left for the meaningful encounters (which i suppose is fine, because honestly the DPS i'm dealing is nothing special in boss fights anymore either).

so, you go play your savant (if you even *have* a sorcerer). you can be content with your damage that is sub-par to melees, and keep on applying to raids as DPS and see where that gets you. but it doesn't interest me; i'm going to go try something that actually has the tools needed to deal with trash, since the one option casters briefly might have had for dealing with challenging bosses is no longer there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kinerd

DDO is a collaborative effort -

---

That is very much a misconception. DDO is a commercial product. Yes the fans have input but only in the same way movie critics have input. We do not actively collaborate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sigtrent

Yes the fans have input but only in the same way movie critics have input. We do not actively collaborate.

---

That's incorrect too. Although game design is usually far from ordering at a deli, the developers here are over 1000 times as responsive to player feedback than a movie director is to critics. Even if the director wanted to shift in accordance to the public response, the lead time of the publishing model doesn't allow that option.

For example, the Awaken Vulnerability feature under discussion here originally came from a suggestion by a player on this forum.

Quote:

---

my sorcerer will be better with not having to blow a feat on something useless.

---

Which feat would that be?

Maximize?
Empower?
Spell Focus: Evocation/Conjuration?

Which one of those is useless again?

Quote:

---

heck, if i don't take the savant, i don't even have to blow all those AP on maxed out crit enhancements that aren't worth it.

---

There might be an exception here or there, but as far as I've read, EVERY PrE requires the character to invest AP (or genuine garbage feats, like Tempest III) where they ordinarily wouldn't. Radiant Servant wants enhancements spent in the healing skill boost....for a PrE that gives infinite healing via regenerating bursts. Better tell clerics to not bother investing in that garbage! At least when you take those "unwanted" crit enhancements, they are directly improving your damage. Heal skill enhancements are flushed down the drain completely, providing no benefit of any kind.

Quote:

---

since the one option casters briefly might have had for dealing with challenging bosses is no longer there.

---

How many of these bosses even exist? Horoth, Suulo, epic Lailat, and a few high HP (but generally very low threat...see Malicia) epic quest end bosses. So the stacking curse is only useful on perhaps .00001% of all monsters in the game. This is a reason to get all peeved? You're still getting your damage boosted by 15% against them, since you can effectively keep the curse up indefinitely. Woe is you.

To say nothing of the fact that the PrEs all have identical feat requirements. If you want, you could swap enhancements and go to a completely different element every 3 days just to suit your whim. No other class has that kind of PrE flexibility. They need reincarnates to do it...assuming they even HAVE the option of a second PrE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Matuse

Which feat would that be?

Maximize?
Empower?
Spell Focus: Evocation/Conjuration?

Which one of those is useless again?

---

The spell focus: evo/conj is the odd man out there. It does have some value, but is not a feat most would take in our all too short list of available feats. The net gains from Evoc/Conj spell focus later in the game is nearly negligible, as it only effects 2-3 of the spells you'd actually use (if even that) in 95% of scenarios.

Spell Focus: Necromancy/Enchantment however are typical choices which actually provide some real benefit at later game.

Heck, I can't even think of a single conjuration or evocation spell I use where 1 more (or even 2 more) to the DC (if it even has one) would make even a measurable impact in 99% of situations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rodasch

The spell focus: evo/conj is the odd man out there. It does have some value, but is not a feat most would take in our all too short list of available feats. The net gains from Evoc/Conj spell focus later in the game is nearly negligible, as it only effects 2-3 of the spells you'd actually use (if even that) in 95% of scenarios.

Spell Focus: Necromancy/Enchantment however are typical choices which actually provide some real benefit at later game.

Heck, I can't even think of a single conjuration or evocation spell I use where 1 more (or even 2 more) to the DC (if it even has one) would make even a measurable impact in 99% of situations.

---

Then why would players think the wizard higher DC's have a measurable impact in those situations relating to damage?

Sorcs do more damage than a wizzie flat out using damage spells. Even with a mass hold on the sorc capstone damage bonus is a better deal. Mass hold + 150% is less than 120% + 120%. That's ignoring any caster level bonus the sorc might be getting too.

By the time the bonus from the mass hold catches the wizzie up any 15 sec debuff is gone or the targets are already dead. And if there is a debuff added to land the mass hold better a 3rd damage spell could have been applied for a bigger differential to catch up to.

Add the new SR check required for mass hold now. That does impact the ability to land it in some places. Epic drow particularly. Direct damage spells don't have issues with spell penetration, and the chosen element has bonuses to help with spell penetration.

The complaint that the higher DC's on wizards is an issue is not realistic. CC spells are shorter now and prepping them with debuffs is time consuming, not to mention more expensive. Instant kill spells have longer cool-downs than before and if they turn out to be an issue the cooldown timers are the easiest way to balance them. Both CC and instant death still cost plenty of SP while damage spells had a reduction in SP. It's easily more sustainable than CC or instakilling. That's worth considering when sorcs do have more SP to work with.

While leveling up the bonus casters levels do make a difference and they open up multi-classing options that didn't exist before. There's some room to splash without impacting caster level as much as before U9.

The PRE just doesn't look like junk at all. I think Turbine did over-do cutting back on some of it. If the curse were and AoE that would be better and maybe 20%. Any spells not working correctly should be corrected. But again, I just don't see it as junk.

And if someone says expensive? Well......arcane PRE's seem expensive by default. I pay 50 AP just to to have reasonable inspire courage and meet my pre requirements before even trying to add anything else. Expensive happens. I don't see an huge issue with the feat costs. Even war chanters need to waste a feat on weapon focus.

It's just not that bad losing the curse stacking.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aashrym

Then why would players think the wizard higher DC's have a measurable impact in those situations relating to damage?

---

Wizard higher DC's doesn't come into play for the damage spells as much as it does for the control spells (where the vast bulk of your save throws matter).

The only evocation spells that even have a save throw use reflex for half, and with the low reflex saves on most monsters (other than evasion type monsters) you're seldom in a situation where 1 or 2 more DC will make a measurable impact on performance. As for conjuration spells, anyone relying heavily on conjuration for damage (acid spells in particular) might surely want the feat to boost their dcs, but the vast majority of sorcerers are not going to be relying that heavily on acid spells, especially not air savants who will cast them at -9 levels, or water savants who have much more effective ways to lay down damage that is in their elemental specialization.

Wizards get a LOT more feats than sorcerers, and already get a boost to ALL DC's by virtue of their +2 to casting/DC stat in their capstone. This effects the spells that really matter and makes having to take a less useful feat to qualify for a PrE much less difficult for them.

I'm not saying they should remove the feat requirements from the savants, but they need to remember the down-sides they built in when they start reducing the benefits, and perhaps consider reducing the costs and penalties commensurate with the reduction in gains.

The people that like the Sorc PrE's seem to be defending them in a very isolated manner. If NOTHING ELSE in the game was changing, sure, the PrE's as they stand now would still be a major boost to Sorc DPS (though not as good as they first were when Lam came online for U9). The problem is, and it seems most are forgetting this, that the Spell Pass, Spell Enhancement Lines and Epic Minion changes are also going into effect AT THE SAME TIME!

It's not so much that the sorc PrE is horrible by itself, it's that all of these other changes make it horrible in combination. As others have stated in the thread, my sorc is perfectly fine as it is. Maybe I can't do CC in epic sands or Chrono, but my damage and CC are just fine for all other epics, as well as ToD and every other high level raid/quest. After the changes? It's debatable, but I don't see my sorc being improved by the changes, and I don't see the new sorc PrE lines making up for those changes at all. I've posted these things in a Spell pass thread as well, but they're just as relevant here.

-----

1) Replacing enhancement lines and not even leaving the old ones in place for those that already have them will effect ALL casters. It's going to be much more expensive just to stay at where your sorc/wiz is at already, enhancement-wise.

2) Spell changes will have an effect on ALL casters, regardless of whether they take a PrE or not. The spell costs, duration/extend and damage changes will effect every caster, not just those with the PrE's. The added saving throw chances on a bunch of spells, the changing of how damage is applied upon entering cloud/AOE effects and the lack of Extend on all of the damaging spells will change how the game works for arcane DPS in major ways. Testing on Lamannia is mostly showing a small subset of people doing things in ridiculous ways with overpowered toons who got a bunch of free respecs for AP/spells and could afford to gimp themselves in ways they NEVER WOULD on Live, just to test out max-DPS scenarios. But we get changes based on it anyway, which is further reducing the usefulness of many damaging spells. The first U9 build had Acid Rain as a good alternative/addition to Firewall which might actually let people make some choices at spell level 4 and maybe develop different play styles. There was a bunch of spells that had great potential in the same way/ 2 Lam patches later, and we're back to the exact same spell list as Pre-U9, just with much less damage and we still have a higher AP cost (and in some cases SP cost) than before U9. If this alone isn't proof of an overall nerf, I don't know what else you would need.

3) PrE's give no real advantages over other, similar non-PrE choices. I'm not even going in to the cost for the PrE versus the benefits, because the benefits just aren't there. The +CL is wasted on 99.99% of all damage spells and almost as many non-damage spells. The SLA's are a complete joke, especially with the new longer cooldowns on them. I can max out my fire and ice line (more expensive to do now, mind you) and be just as good post-U9 as I was Pre-U9, damage wise (which honestly, wasn't bad to begin with), and much more versatile than any savant will hope to be.

4) Epic changes mean no sorcs in end-game content. A melee DPS build is DPS. A Sorc is backup damage, at best, compared to that. Sorcs have to be able to fill the role of wizards, or they simply won't be taken. Bards can mass CC and buff, Wizards can mass CC and buff, Sorcs can buff and... Single-DPS half as well as a newly capped barb for a limited amount of time at huge cost. Plus, we'll still get yelled at if we can't self-heal in the middle of fighting mobs, which no melee will ever have to deal with.

-------

That's how I see it, anyway. I wasn't really planning on using the curses that much to begin with (except maybe on a few Raid bosses to help with DPS), so it's not even an issue for me. The general hate on casters who aren't Pale Masters does bug me though. The game changes outside of the Sorc class make a Sorc PrE needed even more than it was before. The PrE they're giving us isn't even as good an option as we had before the update AND they're taking away the option to stick with what we had before the update.

The best thing I could do post-U9 with my sorc is either 1) Try to emulate my previous build as closely as possible with the new enhancement lines, or 2) TR into a Wizard and take one of those PrE's to make a useful toon that is actually fun to play.

I don't like either option very much.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by altrocks

Single-DPS half as well as a newly capped barb for a limited amount of time at huge cost.

---

yeah, sure...

ridiculous claim is ridiculous

Has the OP even logged his sorc onto the test server yet? If you can't see how much of an improvment Savant is over standard sorc, then you really are doing it wrong ... period.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaxx

on what the thought prossess is that will get people to play savants?

You dont run into a barb and go are you a frenzied berzerker

---

1. easy answer. "You make the choice to play one. The choice is yours." They are not going to force you one way or the other. They are just providing a few more toys if you choose to want to play with them. It is an enhancement, not a class. If you wish to enhance a particular elemental damage, you have the ability to do so now.

2. Nope, still not an FB. And look at the change to helplessness. Emm...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sigtrent

That is very much a misconception. DDO is a commercial product. Yes the fans have input but only in the same way movie critics have input. We do not actively collaborate.

---

This analogy only works if the movie critics were also the actors in the movies they were criticizing, and were also volunteer actors.

The point is, movies can exist without movie critics. Games can't really exist without players, they're just programming exercises otherwise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aashrym

The PRE just doesn't look like junk at all. I think Turbine did over-do cutting back on some of it. If the curse were and AoE that would be better and maybe 20%. Any spells not working correctly should be corrected. But again, I just don't see it as junk.

And if someone says expensive? Well......arcane PRE's seem expensive by default. I pay 50 AP just to to have reasonable inspire courage and meet my pre requirements before even trying to add anything else. Expensive happens. I don't see an huge issue with the feat costs. Even war chanters need to waste a feat on weapon focus.

It's just not that bad losing the curse stacking.

---

As it stands, it is junk.

In another thread, calculations were done that put a complete mana dump for an ice sorc (BEST single target DPS) in 1 minute with eardweller going at under 1k dps. This is unacceptable, because this means that sustainable DPS is *significantly* lower than this. As this PrE is the *DAMAGE BASED* PrE, the damage output should be MUCH higher than this.

Fix it, devs! Give us back our curses

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trillea

In another thread, calculations were done that put a complete mana dump for an ice sorc (BEST single target DPS) in 1 minute with eardweller going at under 1k dps. This is unacceptable, because this means that sustainable DPS is *significantly* lower than this. As this PrE is the *DAMAGE BASED* PrE, the damage output should be MUCH higher than this.

---

Do you have a justification for the idea that the highest-damaging of the Sorcerer specialties should do over 60,000 damage in 60 seconds?

How much damage do you think an Assassin or Frenzied Berserker can do in 60 seconds?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

Do you have a justification for the idea that the highest-damaging of the Sorcerer specialties should do over 60,000 damage in 60 seconds?

How much damage do you think an Assassin or Frenzied Berserker can do in 60 seconds?

---

I have no less justification that sorcs should do over 60,000 damage in 60 seconds than anyone else may have that any melee does that their favored PrE is not doing enough damage - except this. My damage is finite. Melee is not, as long as they are getting heals. If I choose to blow it all at once, I should be able to, and woe to the one I choose as my target. Since I have the possibility of running out of SP, I should be able to maximize what that SP does in a short amount of time, or alternatively spread the damage over a whole dungeon. There are times for both, but we as casters are severely lacking in the quick-nuke. In fact, I would LOVE it if as a caster I had the option of blowing EVERY SPELL POINT I HAVE in a single spell, if the damage scaled per spell point spent. Although an option like this would probably only be available to a warlock.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trillea

I have no less justification that sorcs should do over 60,000 damage in 60 seconds than anyone else may have that any melee does that their favored PrE is not doing enough damage - except this. My damage is finite. Melee is not, as long as they are getting heals.

---

That can support why a damage-oriented Sorcerer specialty should do high damage in 60 seconds, but why 60,000 high?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

That can support why a damage-oriented Sorcerer specialty should do high damage in 60 seconds, but why 60,000 high?

---

Because it is not as much above what melee damage can put out as it should be. Say a very well-geared melee can put out a consistent 550 DPS (feasible). This, over 60 seconds is 33,000 damage. A comparably-geared ice sorc in that same 60 seconds, blowing mana like there is no tomorrow, is not getting even twice that. A spellcaster that chooses to spend all their mana on 1 target should be able to do at LEAST 3x the damage to that one target as a melee, since they are not able to keep it up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xaxx

Ok since we're giving up half an element for a small buff and a few *free* long cooldown and most of them are pretty crappy spells.... can i get an official response on what the thought prossess is that will get people to play savants?

Pre's are supposed to make your characters better, not worse. When compared to any other pre, the downsides arent even close. Some pres have a few downsides, but usually not much, and none of them have downsides that make them hamstring a class to the point where the players have to look at it and go, hmm is it even worth it.

You dont run into a barb and go are you a frenzied berzerker, you dont run into a fighter and say do you have a pre, you dont run into a wiz any more and wonder if they're using one of the 2 pres. With sorcs, it'll be pretty obvious what pre they are, and im gonna go out on a limb here and guess that half the sorcs running around wont have one.

So I'm asking for a direct answer, no mumbo jumbo, no double speak... just a direct answer on why the pre is useful, and how they think it stacks against any other pre. I dont believe this is to much to ask for someone whose been playing on and off as long as I have, and who now is sorely tempted to delete every character I have so that I have no temptation to ever return to this game.

---

Hmm... good point.

Fire Savant is good to use Firewalls. But when you are in a Quest like Enter the Kobold?
Ice Savant isn't good, you will lost Firewall damage and lots of good fire spells.
Air Savant... careful, they fly! D:
Earth Savant is useless.

This is the Sorcerer, while Rangers do 500 damage, Fighters get 8 Str and etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by altrocks

The people that like the Sorc PrE's seem to be defending them in a very isolated manner. If NOTHING ELSE in the game was changing, sure, the PrE's as they stand now would still be a major boost to Sorc DPS (though not as good as they first were when Lam came online for U9). The problem is, and it seems most are forgetting this, that the Spell Pass, Spell Enhancement Lines and Epic Minion changes are also going into effect AT THE SAME TIME!

It's not so much that the sorc PrE is horrible by itself, it's that all of these other changes make it horrible in combination. As others have stated in the thread, my sorc is perfectly fine as it is. Maybe I can't do CC in epic sands or Chrono, but my damage and CC are just fine for all other epics, as well as ToD and every other high level raid/quest. After the changes? It's debatable, but I don't see my sorc being improved by the changes, and I don't see the new sorc PrE lines making up for those changes at all. I've posted these things in a Spell pass thread as well, but they're just as relevant here.

-----

1) Replacing enhancement lines and not even leaving the old ones in place for those that already have them will effect ALL casters. It's going to be much more expensive just to stay at where your sorc/wiz is at already, enhancement-wise.

2) Spell changes will have an effect on ALL casters, regardless of whether they take a PrE or not. The spell costs, duration/extend and damage changes will effect every caster, not just those with the PrE's. The added saving throw chances on a bunch of spells, the changing of how damage is applied upon entering cloud/AOE effects and the lack of Extend on all of the damaging spells will change how the game works for arcane DPS in major ways. Testing on Lamannia is mostly showing a small subset of people doing things in ridiculous ways with overpowered toons who got a bunch of free respecs for AP/spells and could afford to gimp themselves in ways they NEVER WOULD on Live, just to test out max-DPS scenarios. But we get changes based on it anyway, which is further reducing the usefulness of many damaging spells. The first U9 build had Acid Rain as a good alternative/addition to Firewall which might actually let people make some choices at spell level 4 and maybe develop different play styles. There was a bunch of spells that had great potential in the same way/ 2 Lam patches later, and we're back to the exact same spell list as Pre-U9, just with much less damage and we still have a higher AP cost (and in some cases SP cost) than before U9. If this alone isn't proof of an overall nerf, I don't know what else you would need.

3) PrE's give no real advantages over other, similar non-PrE choices. I'm not even going in to the cost for the PrE versus the benefits, because the benefits just aren't there. The +CL is wasted on 99.99% of all damage spells and almost as many non-damage spells. The SLA's are a complete joke, especially with the new longer cooldowns on them. I can max out my fire and ice line (more expensive to do now, mind you) and be just as good post-U9 as I was Pre-U9, damage wise (which honestly, wasn't bad to begin with), and much more versatile than any savant will hope to be.

4) Epic changes mean no sorcs in end-game content. A melee DPS build is DPS. A Sorc is backup damage, at best, compared to that. Sorcs have to be able to fill the role of wizards, or they simply won't be taken. Bards can mass CC and buff, Wizards can mass CC and buff, Sorcs can buff and... Single-DPS half as well as a newly capped barb for a limited amount of time at huge cost. Plus, we'll still get yelled at if we can't self-heal in the middle of fighting mobs, which no melee will ever have to deal with.

-------

That's how I see it, anyway. I wasn't really planning on using the curses that much to begin with (except maybe on a few Raid bosses to help with DPS), so it's not even an issue for me. The general hate on casters who aren't Pale Masters does bug me though. The game changes outside of the Sorc class make a Sorc PrE needed even more than it was before. The PrE they're giving us isn't even as good an option as we had before the update AND they're taking away the option to stick with what we had before the update.

The best thing I could do post-U9 with my sorc is either 1) Try to emulate my previous build as closely as possible with the new enhancement lines, or 2) TR into a Wizard and take one of those PrE's to make a useful toon that is actually fun to play.

I don't like either option very much.

---

So true..:(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trillea

As it stands, it is junk.

In another thread, calculations were done that put a complete mana dump for an ice sorc (BEST single target DPS) in 1 minute with eardweller going at under 1k dps. This is unacceptable, because this means that sustainable DPS is *significantly* lower than this. As this PrE is the *DAMAGE BASED* PrE, the damage output should be MUCH higher than this.

Fix it, devs! Give us back our curses

---

I don't think it's junk while leveling or providing a better splash option because of the caster level boost. I do think there is room for improvement.

The other thread with the damage calcs was off, but I do see some strong potential with damage and it is ranged damage. The risk factor is lower than melee range kiting spell damage. Not bad for the damage either.

I still think mages should have more damage than melees and look at it as protector/glass cannon roles but several players do have a valid point that right now mages are not really at risk needing the tanks much of the time.

It's also cheap SP cost damage compared to CC or instakill and bypasses SR for the most part while some spells still have no save.

Once we get some more elemental spells in we'll be cooking with fire.

The curse is the point of contention for a lot of ppl now. AoE is the way to improve that.

I'm looking forward to updates coming down the road and expect to see improvements in the works.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Heleen

Hmm... good point.

Fire Savant is good to use Firewalls. But when you are in a Quest like Enter the Kobold?
Ice Savant isn't good, you will lost Firewall damage and lots of good fire spells.
Air Savant... careful, they fly! D:
Earth Savant is useless.

This is the Sorcerer, while Rangers do 500 damage, Fighters get 8 Str and etc.

---

I'd have to dissagree here
Fire savant good till you hit about 16 but ya crappy end game

Ice savant is freaking brutal Ice has the best single target Damage spell period in polar ray and it gives up 4 a tick before mods on fire wall, nothing on scorching ray, and nothing on meteor swarm. unless you were spamming DBF your really not losing much to amp up the #1 damage spell.

Air Very little in the game is even resistant to this element But giving up longer Cloud kill and FTS Spell pen is rough but I'm sorry KD immunity and wings are awesome It does blow that the leap is on a longer cooldown but the Oh **** button is still full on win.

Acid is kinda meh in my opinion kinda cool to get the unlimited range earth grab but whatever really.

all that said I'd like to see the cool down on SLA's go back, and possibly up the curse to 20% stacking curse was kinda ridiculous though IMHO. the whole echoes of power SLA nerf is silly SLA's were fine before and if they aren't fine now then fix Echoes or remove it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolflordnexus

Air Very little in the game is even resistant to this element But giving up longer Cloud kill and FTS Spell pen is rough but I'm sorry KD immunity and wings are awesome It does blow that the leap is on a longer cooldown but the Oh **** button is still full on win.

---

as currently implemented, you actually lose spell pen *and* save DC on your flesh to stone. which is a shame, because it has typically been the one spell you can expect to work when there are blanket immunities to everything else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaid314

as currently implemented, you actually lose spell pen *and* save DC on your flesh to stone. which is a shame, because it has typically been the one spell you can expect to work when there are blanket immunities to everything else.

---

Hmmn you shouldn't be loosing save DC DC has nothing to do with CL I'd bug report that if you haven't already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolflordnexus

Hmmn you shouldn't be loosing save DC DC has nothing to do with CL I'd bug report that if you haven't already.

---

Well, this is debatable. At CL11, you shouldn't be able to cast FtS at all. As it is, it's 'heightening' to L5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wolflordnexus

Hmmn you shouldn't be loosing save DC DC has nothing to do with CL I'd bug report that if you haven't already.

---

An Air Savant is treated as a level 11 caster for earth/acid based spells. All of the DCs are based on this via heighten. Spell pen is the same (treated as a level 11 caster).

My DC on FTS is actually 1 higher with heighten turned off.

The savants Pre's are really crappy as they are now. At least if you didn't had to waste a feat to get, I would probably use it.

But it's not something to /ragequit about either.. luckily there are several options in this game. IF the savants go out as they are now, I for one will be TR'ing into a wizard. Not saying im happy about this... just saying that there are other options. Like roll a normal sorc, or a wiz, bard, fighter, etc etc etc...

Hopefully they'll fix it before it goes out. Maybe change the feat prereq to SF echant/necro, or make the curses stack again, or make the SLA's at least a tiny bit useful

I noticed a problem with Transmutation spells DC on live servers, when having both Scepter of the Fleshweaver + Heighten active. It may be a similar problem here, with nothing to do with Air Savants. I also didn't notice it lower the real DC of the spell, just the one in the description.

Mg, it looks like FtS is worth it on these forums... Players who plays casters using it so rarely, but everybody cares about it...:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by domecek1

Mg, it looks like FtS is worth it on these forums... Players who plays casters using it so rarely, but everybody cares about it...:D

---

I have a level 20 sorc and I use it in epics on casters (after neg levels have been applied), I also use it on ToD orthons in part 3. This is pretty sop on Orien.

Not to de-rail the thread, but if you don't use FTS on the orthons what do you use? o.O

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsith

I have a level 20 sorc and I use it in epics on casters (after neg levels have been applied), I also use it on ToD orthons in part 3. This is pretty sop on Orien.

Not to de-rail the thread, but if you don't use FTS on the orthons what do you use? o.O

---

I carry it on my Sorc on Khyber for the same reasons, but I end up rarely using it. In all the non-Sands and non-Chrono epics, I can Mass Hold with no problem. In ToD we have monks/rangers/assassins usually taking care of the trash. Very rarely do I have to actually use FtS on the orthons, but when I do, it's nice to have.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsith

I have a level 20 sorc and I use it in epics on casters (after neg levels have been applied), I also use it on ToD orthons in part 3. This is pretty sop on Orien.

Not to de-rail the thread, but if you don't use FTS on the orthons what do you use? o.O

---

full hands with recon WFs..:oP

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by domecek1

Mg, it looks like FtS is worth it on these forums... Players who plays casters using it so rarely, but everybody cares about it...:D

---

well, it's the best spell at what it does, but you have to understand what exactly it does before you grasp why it's so important.

it isn't that it's the best general-purpose crowd control spell. it's that it's the best crowd control spell that actually works in many situations. if there weren't so many blanket immunities in the game, flesh to stone wouldn't be nearly as important. (basically, there are no blanket immunities to it, and it works on anything with flesh)

it also happens to be (as an added benefit) the best spell from the perspective of keeping a target occupied (but not dead) for extended periods of time. this is especially important whenever a dead target is undesirable for some reason (casters in echrono bloodplate fight respawn, but not if petrified; spiders in let sleeping dust lie end fight can be petrified so they're out of the way, but not dead. acolytes in inferno of the damned can be locked to a specific location and made helpless, but not dead so the transfer to other side won't take place. orthons in ToD will be replaced if killed, but not if petrified. and so forth). add in that it has a much longer time between saves than hold spells do, and you get something that can CC a target for a long, long time.

between those two things, flesh to stone is actually a very useful spell. it isn't as widely applicable as mass hold monster has been, but it is still a very good spell. you can certainly run without it, but running with it can make several difficult situations a lot easier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Arctigis

Well, this is debatable. At CL11, you shouldn't be able to cast FtS at all. As it is, it's 'heightening' to L5.

---

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Heighten_Spell

Ok I would bug report it then as read it should be heightened to the highest spell level you can cast I could see this being an issue for them to fix though as It's probably coded of of Caster Level instead of Spell level. Are we sure it's not just a bugged spell tool tip could anyone test? I could honestly see this one just slipping by decent QA guys these are the kind of kinks we should expect to be working out not X5 curses decimating Raid bosses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaid314

well, it's the best spell at what it does, but you have to understand what exactly it does before you grasp why it's so important.

it isn't that it's the best general-purpose crowd control spell. it's that it's the best crowd control spell that actually works in many situations. if there weren't so many blanket immunities in the game, flesh to stone wouldn't be nearly as important. (basically, there are no blanket immunities to it, and it works on anything with flesh)

it also happens to be (as an added benefit) the best spell from the perspective of keeping a target occupied (but not dead) for extended periods of time. this is especially important whenever a dead target is undesirable for some reason (casters in echrono bloodplate fight respawn, but not if petrified; spiders in let sleeping dust lie end fight can be petrified so they're out of the way, but not dead. acolytes in inferno of the damned can be locked to a specific location and made helpless, but not dead so the transfer to other side won't take place. orthons in ToD will be replaced if killed, but not if petrified. and so forth). add in that it has a much longer time between saves than hold spells do, and you get something that can CC a target for a long, long time.

between those two things, flesh to stone is actually a very useful spell. it isn't as widely applicable as mass hold monster has been, but it is still a very good spell. you can certainly run without it, but running with it can make several difficult situations a lot easier.

---

So you think, taking greater trans focus because of higher epic saves in U9 is worth it? I dont want cc spell, which I will be able land like 50% times... This is why I decided to web+solid fog tactic with my sorc+greater conjur focus, because CC is much more important then dps even with half hp monsters. So you can FtS casters, and rest of monsters? They can running around and killing your group? CC means crowd control, no one person control btw...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by domecek1

So you think, taking greater trans focus because of higher epic saves in U9 is worth it? I dont want cc spell, which I will be able land like 50% times... This is why I decided to web+solid fog tactic with my sorc+greater conjur focus, because CC is much more important then dps even with half hp monsters. So you can FtS casters, and rest of monsters? They can running around and killing your group? CC means crowd control, no one person control btw...

---

i wouldn't take greater transmutation focus, no, but i would definitely use it on appropriate targets.

and sometimes your crowd includes one character that is resistant to your main form of crowd control. at those times, it's nice to have a second option, such as flesh to stone. furthermore, on a sorcerer at least, flesh to stone has a very short cooldown and can typically be used to crowd control by spamming it.

like i said, it's not the best choice for general use, but it definitely is the best spell for certain specific uses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rodasch

Wizard higher DC's doesn't come into play for the damage spells as much as it does for the control spells (where the vast bulk of your save throws matter).

The only evocation spells that even have a save throw use reflex for half, and with the low reflex saves on most monsters (other than evasion type monsters) you're seldom in a situation where 1 or 2 more DC will make a measurable impact on performance. As for conjuration spells, anyone relying heavily on conjuration for damage (acid spells in particular) might surely want the feat to boost their dcs, but the vast majority of sorcerers are not going to be relying that heavily on acid spells, especially not air savants who will cast them at -9 levels, or water savants who have much more effective ways to lay down damage that is in their elemental specialization.

Wizards get a LOT more feats than sorcerers, and already get a boost to ALL DC's by virtue of their +2 to casting/DC stat in their capstone. This effects the spells that really matter and makes having to take a less useful feat to qualify for a PrE much less difficult for them.

I'm not saying they should remove the feat requirements from the savants, but they need to remember the down-sides they built in when they start reducing the benefits, and perhaps consider reducing the costs and penalties commensurate with the reduction in gains.

---

I was planning on responding to this sooner so I apologize for waiting.

CC spells are more expensive to cast than damage spells now and was nerfed all around. Instant Death has longer timers now, effectively a nerf to it as well pre epic, also more expensive to cast than damage spells. A higher impact less often in a quest with no more sustainability doesn't equate to better. The damage spell option can also be used on targets CC and instakill cannot. 1 higher DC on the save for evocations or conjurations can still make a difference.

The nerfing of CC durations and instakill timers was put in place in conjunction with cheaper damage spell costs in order to enable those spells for better usage. That aspect alone helps sorcerers, savant or not.

The save changes for mobs in epics are the only place sorcs will see an impact from the changes to saving throws. Everywhere else sorcerers are better off than they were, and in epic the only issue I see is with CC saves compare to pre-U9 (which is nerfed all around) because no one was using instant killing there before that in epics. Use a hypno for a quick -3 and you are almost where you were before, just like everyone else. It's great that wizzies can wail in epics now but that is still on a longer timer without a cheaper cost, and doesn't change the gameplay balance from before epic between both mage classes.

Your comment about an air savant not wanting to use acid spells works the other way too. Going earth means the player will be more likely to use those spells, still have the fire spells for area, still have the cold spells for single target damage. Giving up air isn't that bad. Going water savant and using acid to stack with cold doesn't isn't so bad either.

I think the comparison between sorcs and wizzies is quite reasonable. When all else fails with DC's, energy drain. :D

I see more players worried about filling a DPS slot compared to a melee DPS because of sustainability. The range and area available make up for that IMO, but that would be more of the direction to be looking at tweaking it, not a comparison to wizzies at this point.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aashrym

I was planning on responding to this sooner so I apologize for waiting.

CC spells are more expensive to cast than damage spells now and was nerfed all around. Instant Death has longer timers now, effectively a nerf to it as well pre epic, also more expensive to cast than damage spells. A higher impact less often in a quest with no more sustainability doesn't equate to better. The damage spell option can also be used on targets CC and instakill cannot. 1 higher DC on the save for evocations or conjurations can still make a difference.

The nerfing of CC durations and instakill timers was put in place in conjunction with cheaper damage spell costs in order to enable those spells for better usage. That aspect alone helps sorcerers, savant or not.

The save changes for mobs in epics are the only place sorcs will see an impact from the changes to saving throws. Everywhere else sorcerers are better off than they were, and in epic the only issue I see is with CC saves compare to pre-U9 (which is nerfed all around) because no one was using instant killing there before that in epics. Use a hypno for a quick -3 and you are almost where you were before, just like everyone else. It's great that wizzies can wail in epics now but that is still on a longer timer without a cheaper cost, and doesn't change the gameplay balance from before epic between both mage classes.

Your comment about an air savant not wanting to use acid spells works the other way too. Going earth means the player will be more likely to use those spells, still have the fire spells for area, still have the cold spells for single target damage. Giving up air isn't that bad. Going water savant and using acid to stack with cold doesn't isn't so bad either.

I think the comparison between sorcs and wizzies is quite reasonable. When all else fails with DC's, energy drain. :D

I see more players worried about filling a DPS slot compared to a melee DPS because of sustainability. The range and area available make up for that IMO, but that would be more of the direction to be looking at tweaking it, not a comparison to wizzies at this point.

---

I didn't start the wizzy comparisons, my only comment was that requiring a less useful spell focus for the PrE has more impact on a Sorcerer than it would for a wizard, since wizards get bonus metamagic feats anyway. It was asked which feat was the "weak" one and I answered. Prior to update 9, you can count on one hand the Sorcerers on any given server who picked SF:evoc or SF:conj as one of their precious few feats. Think about it. If you could only pick 7 feats total for your caster, what would they be...would you consider +1 dc to 3 spells you actually use which are reflex saves worth one of those slots?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rodasch

I didn't start the wizzy comparisons, my only comment was that requiring a less useful spell focus for the PrE has more impact on a Sorcerer than it would for a wizard, since wizards get bonus metamagic feats anyway. It was asked which feat was the "weak" one and I answered. Prior to update 9, you can count on one hand the Sorcerers on any given server who picked SF:evoc or SF:conj as one of their precious few feats. Think about it. If you could only pick 7 feats total for your caster, what would they be...would you consider +1 dc to 3 spells you actually use which are reflex saves worth one of those slots?

---

Sorcs should be swapping extend for that feat requirement not anything that they needed to achieve workable dc's so that shouldn't change.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rodasch

I didn't start the wizzy comparisons, my only comment was that requiring a less useful spell focus for the PrE has more impact on a Sorcerer than it would for a wizard, since wizards get bonus metamagic feats anyway. It was asked which feat was the "weak" one and I answered. Prior to update 9, you can count on one hand the Sorcerers on any given server who picked SF:evoc or SF:conj as one of their precious few feats. Think about it. If you could only pick 7 feats total for your caster, what would they be...would you consider +1 dc to 3 spells you actually use which are reflex saves worth one of those slots?

---

My question was actually a bit rhetorical. D'oh, my bad for not being clear.

I would consider the fact that most sorcerers currently don't use a lot of those spells because they are limited in the number of spells available and because currently direct damage isn't popular based on cost efficiency.

Cost efficiency is changing and we have dev confirmation that elemental spells are a priority.

We might want to look at it even more closely. Taking evocation focus now comes into play a lot more just for the SLA's. It will be used more often just for that reason. Fire savant has 3 SLA's; dbf, wall of fire, and likely chain lightning, meteor swarm, cyclonic blast, and maybe greater shout (for the stun DC, which looks a bit better now that shorter CC appears to be the norm) to look at with evocation. That's more than 4 and off the top of my head.

If I am building a character with a feat requirement like that I have some incentive to take as many spells as I can get away with to take advantage of that requirement.

I would also take it with a grain of salt if you still don't like taking either feat because taking a feat that wouldn't normally be taken is a common cost for a PRE. War chanter with weapon focus is a prime example. It's not realistically of great use even tho it can help the hit ratios, but it's still there and bards aren't any less feat starved than sorcs, for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeLoric

Sorcs should be swapping extend for that feat requirement not anything that they needed to achieve workable dc's so that shouldn't change.

---

Why? I am currently running a lowby about where the haste is 2 min and it sucks and yes I have haste shroud clickies on the character. I am not swapping out extend on my sorc no way. You go right ahead..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by maddmatt70

Why? I am currently running a lowby about where the haste is 2 min and it sucks and yes I have haste shroud clickies on the character. I am not swapping out extend on my sorc no way. You go right ahead..

---

Already have and don't look back.