Crafting Viability

Ok, I have come to terms with the whole spend TP for easier crafting levels, don't like it but if the money does help support the game then fine, lets deal and move on.

Earlier I decided to make a +1 holy mace to test the crafting viability for future unbound items. I did this without using TP at all other than the fact that I leveled crafting using Lamma TP.

Starting from scratch with the appropriate crafting levels, I had to deconstruct 23 various weapons that give up good ingredients, plus 4 efficacy scepters, to even have the amount of ingredients needed to make the lowly +1 holy mace. I know this is the preview server but is this WAI? Some of these where level 6 ability weapons. :confused:

The amount of ingredients from the deconstruct is really bad, add to the fact that they are random, which means that no amount of planning, ex...i must breakdown 15 of these items to make this one can be done.

Now as some of yall know, I have been looking so forward to real crafting finally being in DDO ever since it was mentioned at PAX that it was coming in U9. :D When watching the interview I know that he must have kinda misspoke when he mentioned that you can pull one ability from an item and put it on another. At no point have I seen that you can pull a "paralyzing shard" from an (read this as one) item and put it on another item.

Assuming (I know what this means but has to be used) that Paralyzing is level 90+ due to it being a "big 10" ability we can guess that with the amount of ingredients needed for those mystical levels, with level 75 items needing 2048, that it is possible with the progresson x2 not x4 as earlier levels then we could possibly see the need for 8000+ ingredients needed. That would mean that just using paralyzing like the PAX example you would need around 200 paralyzing weapons, since you only get around 35 ingredients from deconstructing them and this is from level 6 ability, to even have the ingredients need to craft said paralyzing weapon.

Now maybe it is not 8000+ but a semi-reasonable 1024 x2/x3/x4 progression in which case the above example is still rather unreasonable with having to deconstruct around 100 paralyzers just to make the one that you want. Point is using the PAX example with the crafting system they have given us, if you can't find the paralyzer you want with going through 100+ paralyzing weapons then the random loot system has failed in the first place.

To summarize this rather long post. To get the paralyzer you want you need to either break down 100+ items to make it, sell 50 of them to buy the one you want on the AH, trade a couple for it, or buy the ingredients with a couple hundred turbine points, lol. Which IMO seems like the crafting system as is, is kinda a failure. :(

I am up for discussion and willing to see other points of view on this topic. :D

The same thing has occurred to me. I've spent ~8000 Lammania TP to get to level L39 Arcane and L35 divine. Given
the raw material costs of recipes to progress beyond this level, I don't see how you can reasonably do it without
the store. A lot of recipes around that level require upwards of 256 of the smaller reagents (not to mention
harbor/marketplace collectibles - yuck). I de-constructed a boatload of weapons and didn't have 256 lesser
reagents of any category. Well, at least the decent shards are BTC... (holy, lawful outsider bane etc.)

You need to get more reagents from deconstruction IMO (and maybe some crafting XP).

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

On Lamannia noone runs quests to get this loot.

On Live, we'll spend a lot more time in quests than on deconstruction.


I'm not certain how the drop rates will turn out, but it's too early for 'DOOM AND GLOOM' imo. The store only blank trinket, OTOH, is very poor form.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

The store only blank trinket, OTOH, is very poor form.

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qft

/signed.

I like the potential of the crafting system but it's a hot mess. It really is. What would make it a little bit better is to be able to crunch leveling shards for mats. You will have stacks and stacks of those in the progress of leveling.

Plus there's no reasoning between what you get and the cost. I understand that you're going to lose some in translation - that when you deconstruct something you get less than what it cost to make, but the difference is not on the order of 30-40 percent - it's on the magnitude of 90+ loss. That's steep. Plus the level of the item and what you get doesn't make sense.

Here's how it should work. 3 ways to deconstruct - take enhancement bonus, make blank or get mats for all its powers. And mats according to level of the power removed, not where level 3 mat gives you 10 and where level 5 and above give you 30. Make it 10 plus 1d6 per level. Or 1 of the larger mats plus a 1d2 per level. You don't pick and chose the power - you get for all the power. That way if the power is a level 8 I get more than if it's a level 5 - because level 5 seems to be a good standard (gives you many times around 30 of the smaller mats) but you don't seem to get that much more above 5.

And if you deconstruct the shard you should get mats according to the level of the shards for that school. You lose compared to making shards, but the loss are kept manageable and you can actually feel like you're getting something for the process.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

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Yep, I've had several drops. It's generally extremely low rent versus what you will need to craft anything
useful though.

Once you get the crafting levels it won't be so bad; the raw material costs to make something moderately
useful aren't terribly prohibitive (though Greater Twilight costing 4096 minor ingredients might be a stretch!).
Advancing crafting levels will be very slow without the store due the costs and the XP decay on successful
recipes. Crafting leveling through deconstruction and loot will take a very long time IME.

I really don't see this crafting style being a first life first character sort of thing.

Since crafting xp doesnt reset on TR. I doubt anyone will be making anything real nice for quite awhile. Just due to the xp and materials needed.

Next life tho... You could make some wicked stuff for your twinking.

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Originally Posted by Arctigis

Yep, I've had several drops. It's generally extremely low rent versus what you will need to craft anything
useful though.

Once you get the crafting levels it won't be so bad; the raw material costs to make something moderately
useful aren't terribly prohibitive (though Greater Twilight costing 4096 minor ingredients might be a stretch!).
Advancing crafting levels will be very slow without the store due the costs and the XP decay on successful
recipes. Crafting leveling through deconstruction and loot will take a very long time IME.

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I expect that it will be a long-term project for most players; probably something to do while levelling a TR - amass lots of garbage equipment, deconstruct it, add this to all the ingredients you've looted this life, and use that to level crafting and maybe even make occasional useful twink gear.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

On Lamannia noone runs quests to get this loot.

On Live, we'll spend a lot more time in quests than on deconstruction.


I'm not certain how the drop rates will turn out, but it's too early for 'DOOM AND GLOOM' imo. The store only blank trinket, OTOH, is very poor form.

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Unfortunately I do realize that part. But with the amount of different types of ingredients that will drop unless noted that certain ingredients drop in certain quest then it still remains up to decontructing an "insane" amount of stuff to make even the simplest stuff, not to mention something really powerful.

I really hope that the current version that is on Lama isn't the version that will go live in a few weeks.

I am trying to remain optimistic, I am a Founder and have played steadily for 5+years, I truly love and enjoy this game. Will this make me quit, not even close, but this current craft system has finally put a level of disgust in the game that has me really upset. Especially after blatantly misleading us at PAX. I truly hope that this is really just a beta crafting system cause as is, I don't think it is going to work.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

On Lamannia noone runs quests to get this loot.

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I did run quests on Lamannia to try and get crafting Ingreediants. The funny thing is that I ran the entire new quest chain and not ONE ingreediant dropped in the quest. I was offered something as end reqard I believe, but nuthing in the quest chests.

On the other hand, I ran Eyes to get some items to deconstruct, and got ingreediants from those chests.

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Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy

I really don't see this crafting style being a first life first character sort of thing.

Since crafting xp doesnt reset on TR. I doubt anyone will be making anything real nice for quite awhile. Just due to the xp and materials needed.

Next life tho... You could make some wicked stuff for your twinking.

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this is my impression too ,it looks like something your not supposed to max in a week and is supposed to be something you work on your whole time as a charachter . Using vendor trash to fuel your crafting skills .

Dont agree / disagree .

I personally would like it to be pretty hard work to create a +5 holy silver khopesh of greater evil outsider bane .

And although its lower level a +1 Holy Greataxe eg is still pretty fancy bit of kit at the right level

A system of find any silver khopesh , find any +5 weapon , find any greater evil ouitsider bane weapon . Get your +5 holy GEOB . Would be too cheap for me

Recyle is inefficient. You need 1000 ings for shard and you get 30 ings by recycling the same effect. 3% rate. Should be 30%, 10x time more. Did devs misplaced decimal point?

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Originally Posted by dakkon75

Unfortunately I do realize that part. But with the amount of different types of ingredients that will drop unless noted that certain ingredients drop in certain quest then it still remains up to decontructing an "insane" amount of stuff to make even the simplest stuff, not to mention something really powerful.

I really hope that the current version that is on Lama isn't the version that will go live in a few weeks.

I am trying to remain optimistic, I am a Founder and have played steadily for 5+years, I truly love and enjoy this game. Will this make me quit, not even close, but this current craft system has finally put a level of disgust in the game that has me really upset. Especially after blatantly misleading us at PAX. I truly hope that this is really just a beta crafting system cause as is, I don't think it is going to work.

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Let me put it like this, I don't believe anyone will want anything to do with the crafting system if it's launched as is. People would rather buy from the AH, or rely on drops/end-rewards for decent loot. Considering that this new system (as it is now) is rather hostile to non-TR's and players who don't have a boatload of platinum to waste, I am thinking most players would rather make Greensteel, or go after raid loot than to sit around for hours trying to progress a crafting level.

The system really needs to be reworked.

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Originally Posted by Ziindarax

Let me put it like this, I don't believe anyone will want anything to do with the crafting system if it's launched as is. People would rather buy from the AH, or rely on drops/end-rewards for decent loot. Considering that this new system (as it is now) is rather hostile to non-TR's and players who don't have a boatload of platinum to waste, I am thinking most players would rather make Greensteel, or go after raid loot than to sit around for hours trying to progress a crafting level.

The system really needs to be reworked.

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Is it really that intensive or is it not just something you can use rather than the vednor for clearing out trash ?

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Originally Posted by bryanmeerkat

Is it really that intensive or is it not just something you can use rather than the vednor for clearing out trash ?

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Considering the horrid return from deconstruction, I would find it better to simply sell it to vendors to get platinum to use toward purchasing shroud mats from the auction house. As another person wrote, he got 30 good beams from deconstructing a holyburst weapon, and yet it costs 1,000 good beams to make that same holy burst effect; yes, it really is that intensive, illogical, and unreasonable.

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Originally Posted by Ziindarax

Let me put it like this, I don't believe anyone will want anything to do with the crafting system if it's launched as is. People would rather buy from the AH, or rely on drops/end-rewards for decent loot. Considering that this new system (as it is now) is rather hostile to non-TR's and players who don't have a boatload of platinum to waste, I am thinking most players would rather make Greensteel, or go after raid loot than to sit around for hours trying to progress a crafting level.

The system really needs to be reworked.

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I didn't do much research about crafting...

Actually I though that crafting would, among other things, allow new players to obtain needed basic equipment in reasonable time for their first characters, given the fact that they might miss the plat which is needed to buy things from AH. I mean things like at-level GFL, Stat+6, basic DR-breakers, etc.

As I understand from this thread this isn't the case? Crafting not really viable for new players? Just asking...

Thx,

Infant

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Originally Posted by Infant

I didn't do much research about crafting...

Actually I though that crafting would, among other things, allow new players to obtain needed basic equipment in reasonable time for their first characters, given the fact that they might miss the plat which is needed to buy things from AH. I mean things like at-level GFL, Stat+6, basic DR-breakers, etc.

As I understand from this thread this isn't the case? Crafting not really viable for new players? Just asking...

Thx,

Infant

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Not when you consider how inefficient the system is when it comes to deconstructing items; you get faaaaar less (as much as 90% fewer materials) than what you put in to imbue the effect you are removing from said item. That said, chest-loot and end-rewards alone (which is what newbies will be getting mostly unless they got someone giving them money) will not even scratch the surface of this new crafting system; to imbue anything reasonable, they would need to buy additional weapons/armors/what-have-you just to get to a level where they could craft a decent effect for their level.

With the exorbitant prices charged on both the auction house and by players, as well as the expected increase in prices on everything that can be sold on the auction house in light of this new crafting system, newbies would not be able to utilize the crafting system to the same degree as a wealthy veteran player without buying thousands of points to use toward purchasing crafting materials from the DDO store.

On the other hand, if the dev's fix/set the crafting mats to drop in a frequency comparable to dragonshards, then newbies will be able to participate just fine assuming that the craftable trinket and general crafting materials on the DDO store is a Lammania-only set-up to expedite testing and quality assurance.

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Originally Posted by Ziindarax

Considering the horrid return from deconstruction, I would find it better to simply sell it to vendors to get platinum to use toward purchasing shroud mats from the auction house. As another person wrote, he got 30 good beams from deconstructing a holyburst weapon, and yet it costs 1,000 good beams to make that same holy burst effect; yes, it really is that intensive, illogical, and unreasonable.

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You are basically combining about 100 items together to get a highly powerful piece of endgame loot. (~30 items with higher-tier Good affixes such as Greater Ardor 6, ~30 with higher Arcane effects like Superior Efficacy 6 for the +4, and ~30 items with Chaos-aligned effects for Greater Lawful Outsider Bane).

Vendoring 100 min level 12-18 items won't get you enough plat to buy a greensteel blank, let alone a decent item.

The leveling of crafting may be bad, but the actual amount of materials required to make something truly top-notch - in this example a +4 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of GLOB is pretty fair, IMO.

My opinions might change once we see what's required to level crafting in practice. If levelling 1-75 requires materials from 1000 deconstructions, I can live with that. 10000 - nope.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

You are basically combining about 100 items together to get a highly powerful piece of endgame loot. (~30 items with higher-tier Good affixes such as Greater Ardor 6, ~30 with higher Arcane effects like Superior Efficacy 6 for the +4, and ~30 items with Chaos-aligned effects for Greater Lawful Outsider Bane).

Vendoring 100 min level 12-18 items won't get you enough plat to buy a greensteel blank, let alone a decent item.

The leveling of crafting may be bad, but the actual amount of materials required to make something truly top-notch - in this example a +4 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of GLOB is pretty fair, IMO.

My opinions might change once we see what's required to level crafting in practice. If levelling 1-75 requires materials from 1000 deconstructions, I can live with that. 10000 - nope.

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I would ask you to consider this from the perspective of a newbie - I know vets like you or me could easily afford 1,000 deconstructions, but what about the newbie who is on his first character (presumably 28-point build)? The newbie is not going to get one thousand weapons of a consistent crafting school from end-rewards and chest-loot through-out the life of their character, much less from buying things from the auction house.

New players wont have a stock of higher loot to provide raw materials to craft with at a greater rate than their lowbie trash items.

New players wont have the time to burn sitting in the crafting hall for hours. Not when they could level up in half the time needed to gain enough crafting xp... assuming they had the materials to craft and get xp... to make an item for a level they passed days ago.

Its SO not geared to new players.

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Originally Posted by Ziindarax

I would ask you to consider this from the perspective of a newbie - I know vets like you or me could easily afford 1,000 deconstructions, but what about the newbie who is on his first character (presumably 28-point build)? The newbie is not going to get one thousand weapons of a consistent crafting school from end-rewards and chest-loot through-out the life of their character, much less from buying things from the auction house.

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Maybe it isn't intended to be for newbies? I assumed that it could/should be helpful for them, but it's not given. IMHO, it would be nice to see a system which allows new people to craft gear which is considered to be basic and necessary by many, rather then include an "easy button" for the geared-out people out there. Ideally it would allow both easy crafting basic equipment and more time-consuming for powerful equipment for vets. Dunno what the developers' idea behind it was...

Infant

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Originally Posted by Ziindarax

I would ask you to consider this from the perspective of a newbie - I know vets like you or me could easily afford 1,000 deconstructions, but what about the newbie who is on his first character (presumably 28-point build)? The newbie is not going to get one thousand weapons of a consistent crafting school from end-rewards and chest-loot through-out the life of their character, much less from buying things from the auction house.

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The newbie won't be making a +4 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane anytime soon, correct.

They might, however, be able to craft a +3 Holy Silver Khopesh of Lawful Outsider Bane in a reasonable timeframe (we'll need to see on that). That weapon will out-DPS a Mineral 2 against Elite Horoth. Or even if that is out of the question, they should at least be able to craft a +2 Silver Khopesh of Righteousness (which will break DR post-U9) to use for a while.

Hi Sirgog,

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Originally Posted by sirgog

Or even if that is out of the question, they should at least be able to craft a +2 Silver Khopesh of Righteousness (which will break DR post-U9) to use for a while.

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how difficult/time-consuming/plat-consuming would that be? If that could be obtained by a newbie (who did his research) "on-the-way-to-20", then that'd be already nice.

Thx,
Infant

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Originally Posted by dakkon75

Starting from scratch with the appropriate crafting levels, I had to deconstruct 23 various weapons that give up good ingredients, plus 4 efficacy scepters, to even have the amount of ingredients needed to make the lowly +1 holy mace.

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I know I am quoting myself here but if you look at the types of vendor fodder I had to use to make even a lowly +1 holy, I should have just sold them and bought one off the AH.

I love the idea of this system but in reality the numbers and xp needed, need to be looked at in a very serious manner.

As I stated in my OP, if I need to deconstruct even close to the amount needed to make items it would just be better off vendoring them and buying them at the AH.

Which would straight out destroy the whole reason the crafting system should be in the game in the first place.

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Originally Posted by fuzzy1guy

New players wont have the time to burn sitting in the crafting hall for hours. Not when they could level up in half the time needed to gain enough crafting xp

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Assuming they are interested in levelling up.
When you start implementing crafting in a game, you are adding a whole new dimension.
Maybe they are not levelling up in character levels, but they are still levelling up.

Problem here is, you can't hit wilderness to farm for raw ingredients, such as ores of tin and copper or rowan/ash branches.
This kind of crafting is still tied to some traditional questing.

But a player could choose to devote some time to questing and some time to crafting.
This game does not feature a true end game; when you hit 20, you either reincarnate or farm epics.

Stopping longer at lower levels does not make you necessarily weaker.
Actually, it might give you a marginal edge, when you can craft some low level gear, to farm quests with.

Actually a wilderness area would be a good easy place to farm.

Rares. They have stuff to deconstruct too. And better rates than some quests for time/items.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

On Lamannia noone runs quests to get this loot.

On Live, we'll spend a lot more time in quests than on deconstruction.


I'm not certain how the drop rates will turn out, but it's too early for 'DOOM AND GLOOM' imo. The store only blank trinket, OTOH, is very poor form.

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I had to Run quest and outdoor area's just to get items to deconstruct and the Scarcer drops where far and few really not worth it.
By the way AH and venders are all sold out on the test server right now.

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Originally Posted by Ziindarax

Considering the horrid return from deconstruction, I would find it better to simply sell it to vendors to get platinum to use toward purchasing shroud mats from the auction house. As another person wrote, he got 30 good beams from deconstructing a holyburst weapon, and yet it costs 1,000 good beams to make that same holy burst effect; yes, it really is that intensive, illogical, and unreasonable.

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This is my assessment as well.

I understand why the crafting system requires so many ingredients. The idea is to prevent everyone from making 'Super Kickass Great Sword 3.0(tm)' right out of the gate. A logical concern. The problem, however, is that the crafting system ignores efficiency. Essentially, in order to craft the items you want, you will have to deconstruct every bit of random loot your find. This means that you will surrender a large part of your characters income for a lower return. Instead of selling my ToD loot for ~25-75k platinum I will be deconstructing the loot for ~100 random ingredients (if even that much).

I am most curious to see what this does to the vendor/AH market.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

The newbie won't be making a +4 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane anytime soon, correct.

They might, however, be able to craft a +3 Holy Silver Khopesh of Lawful Outsider Bane in a reasonable timeframe (we'll need to see on that). That weapon will out-DPS a Mineral 2 against Elite Horoth. Or even if that is out of the question, they should at least be able to craft a +2 Silver Khopesh of Righteousness (which will break DR post-U9) to use for a while.

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I'm L39 Arcane and L36 Divine. I've just managed to make a holy shard, a +4 shard and a LOB shard (GLOB and
Holy burst are much higher level). I've spent 8000TP - swigging + xp elixirs and liberally using +15% items.
Those shards are also all BTC. Now I just need to be lucky enough to loot a silver Khopesh or pay the 200K
plus price for one from the AH... You need to be ~L35+ in _both_ divine and arcane to craft holy and lob.

I'm not disagreeing with you regarding the quality of this item, I've already said that it does provide the
opportunity to create some nice items. The issue is how long it would take you to get there should you only
rely on deconstruction and loot. It's more efficient to farm Shroud or Amrath for large ingredients. There are
a few highly desirable and/or interesting effects (blood rage, life stealing, greater foci, meta enhancers etc.)
diluted by +skill, +stat, +potency etc. 'flavour' (flavour being my opinion only)

To pick up one of you're earlier points, I'd estimate the deconstruction required to level 1-75 would be
much closer to 10000 items (perhaps more) than 1000 e.g. if you deconstructed the prefix off a holy
weapon you'd get approximately 5% of the reagents required to remake it. That's 20:1 for a single recipe.
Greater Twilight requires 4096 Arcane Charges. 4000 arcane charges would cost you 2000TP in the store
or you could break down approximately 250+ items to get those. Extreme example but most shards around
that level use at least 256 of the minor reagents.

I actually like the system, it just needs tweaking to be less grindy (IMO of course).

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Originally Posted by Infant

Hi Sirgog,



how difficult/time-consuming/plat-consuming would that be? If that could be obtained by a newbie (who did his research) "on-the-way-to-20", then that'd be already nice.

Thx,
Infant

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It righteousness a craftable suffix? I didn't notice it. Pure Good is higher level than Holy.

Personally I probably won't craft anything on Live, not too impressed by the crafting. I want my vorpal paralyzing icy burst flaming burst longsword of righteousness darn it. :P


I get 2 hours a week to play if I'm lucky. Not enough time to make trying to craft something worthwhile.

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Yep, I've had several drops. It's generally extremely low rent versus what you will need to craft anything
useful though.

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I noticed that as well; I get 6 or so materials from completion of quest but can deconstruct one of the random items in the same loot table for more. Very wacky. I suggest giving at least about 100 for quest completions

I think the component return on deconstruction should get a bonus based on your crafting level for the particular 'school' you are deconning.

EG:
You are level 35/35/50. You go to break down a +1 holy warhammer of bone breaking. You need good comps, so you choose to take the prefix apart. When you do, your experience in dealing with divine enchantments is soo good, you extract more of the beams and possibly some of the (insert higher tier good element here) components from it as well.

What should the ratio be? Well you could take your Crafting Level vs the level of the prefix (in this caase), and drop a 1% bonus per level above the items prefix in the return of comps.

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Originally Posted by sirgog

They might, however, be able to craft a +3 Holy Silver Khopesh of Lawful Outsider Bane in a reasonable timeframe (we'll need to see on that). That weapon will out-DPS a Mineral 2 against Elite Horoth. Or even if that is out of the question, they should at least be able to craft a +2 Silver Khopesh of Righteousness (which will break DR post-U9) to use for a while.

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Probably not.

Not due to crafting difficulty, of course, but rather the difficulty in finding a silver khopesh blank. Those have already begun, and are likely to continue, to fetch exorbitant prices on the AH.

-Kernal

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Originally Posted by Seikojin

I think the component return on deconstruction should get a bonus based on your crafting level for the particular 'school' you are deconning.

EG:
You are level 35/35/50. You go to break down a +1 holy warhammer of bone breaking. You need good comps, so you choose to take the prefix apart. When you do, your experience in dealing with divine enchantments is soo good, you extract more of the beams and possibly some of the (insert higher tier good element here) components from it as well.

What should the ratio be? Well you could take your Crafting Level vs the level of the prefix (in this caase), and drop a 1% bonus per level above the items prefix in the return of comps.

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This is what I was thinking. The more skilled at crafting you are the more stuff you should be able to pull from an item.

Thanks for all the feedback - it's very helpful. The balance is still a work-in-progress. If you think it's stingy now, you should have seen it last week. :-)

I'm not on Lam, so this is only based on what I've read on the forums.

It sounds to me like a new player will have to choose between trying to get some platinum for his characters or getting crafting xp and mats. The amount of deconstructing sounds like a new player would have to deconstruct everything he loots to be able to craft anything usable. Therefore, he would hardly be selling any items, meaning he is just covering repair costs for his adventuring?

I suspect new players will not be crafting much. That's a shame, IMO, as getting the gear is perhaps the hardest part for new players. And experienced players don't need this as much; they're typically fairly well geared, so this will allow them to tweak their gear.

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

If you think it's stingy now, you should have seen it last week.

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^^^
See?
They are erring on the side of caution.

...

If you gents could add ways to crunch shards back into essences, without having to burn through blanks, it would be nice... but I see good reasons not to, too...

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Thanks for all the feedback - it's very helpful. The balance is still a work-in-progress. If you think it's stingy now, you should have seen it last week. :-)

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Any comment on whether the ingredients in the store are simply to speed up previewing on Lamannia, or if we should expect to see them on Live?

A lot of my balance concerns rest on the answer to this question.

That, and silver shouldn't be essentially free, given how much potency it adds to some weapons.

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Thanks for all the feedback - it's very helpful. The balance is still a work-in-progress. If you think it's stingy now, you should have seen it last week. :-)

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Thanks for the feedback - if you only balance it to make sense, where you get the equivalent mats for the material level (say 4) instead of 1-4 being something, and 5-8 being all the same (30ish) it would make more sense.

Let me feel like I'm crunching all those items for a reason - not just to get a piddle. Plus what's been said about the shards already.

Also - make end rewards dole out more mats than it's worth for me to pick one of the items and crunch it instead.

I love the system tho so I hope you won't restrict what we can craft; only make it feel like an accomplishment. I get that you need to make money (you're a business) but selling the mats in the store and making the ingame grind stingy cheapens the accomplishment.

I have 10 mules full of stuff; lets not make it feel like I'm recycling soda pop cans for the effort.

Oh tiny request; let us deconstruct named items for mats only. I have tons I will never use but I hate to simply destroy them because I need space.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Thanks for all the feedback - it's very helpful. The balance is still a work-in-progress. If you think it's stingy now, you should have seen it last week. :-)

---

thank you floyd. i already posted several places that this HAS to be a test setup given the powers of two numbers we were seeing(2/4/8/16/64/128/256/1024/2048/4096, not sure where 32/512 got lost but clear binary bit values in larger types), or below seems like as good a place to start as any.

further given eladrin's once upon a time comment on the ml values for the ioun stones(just mashed numbers at random) as a past approach, well with a testbed this massive that makes sense, just toss something out there and see responses, then start doubling or halving values until things fit.

actually i'm pretty sure that's the recommended initial test and balancing approach from one of LaMothe's game development books. s.o.p. right there for balancing.

would it be safe to assume that what effect is what crafting level is also a WIP? and the store item stack size/pricing/availability of materials.?

one can assume the special adventure pack only drops are less likely to change, as they already have their strings nicely put together in full.

Perhaps if it takes a ton of resources and a serious amount of time to make those uber items that people are referring to as The End of Ebberon as We Know It, then it won't be so horrible...

Quote:

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Perhaps if it takes a ton of resources and a serious amount of time to make those uber items that people are referring to as The End of Ebberon as We Know It, then it won't be so horrible...

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I think the reason why people object is because deconstructing gives you trivial amounts and that you can buy the mats in the store.

There has to be a balance of time and effort for anyone who want to do this in game as suppose to take a short cut and buy themselves crafting levels.

how about instead of crafting gems back into essence we can just crush the gems into the exp they would have given? I think that would still give the result they want, while not having to run back and to craft it onto a blank, remove the effect, then craft it back on it 100 times.

I agree that the number of materials needed to level up is too great. Either the system needs to give back more via deconstruction, or the recipes need to cost less.

I'm not looking for an easy button- after doing some math with my BF and trying it out, it will be an insane grind once it goes live.

I enjoyed it, but that's with 4K "Llama" TP worth of crafting mats put in. I can't imagine getting all those materials through weapon deconstuction in a time-frame anywhere near fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Any comment on whether the ingredients in the store are simply to speed up previewing on Lamannia, or if we should expect to see them on Live?

A lot of my balance concerns rest on the answer to this question.

That, and silver shouldn't be essentially free, given how much potency it adds to some weapons.

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If an item is made of silver why should it be taken off? Its part of the base item. Its not free. Just like Darkwood bows ect. The base item is made of it.

I does seem like the number of items required to deconstruct is too great. It does make sense that you would need a few items to create a desired effect, eg not 1 paralyzer but maybe like 10+...

In any case as someone mentioned it seems like you either have to make a choice between selling your items for plat, versus deconstructing them for crafting. Now, if you could become a master crafter and earn an income off your trade that could help offset the income loss a little from not vendoring... For example if people could hire you to make items, or you could sell top notch items on the AH. I understand that you can sell/trade shards, so that's something, but if you could also sell/trade finished items that would be pretty cool and might help to justify the time and loss of income from building a master crafter. Be a pauper today, but have some increased earning capacity down the road from your trade...

so crafting xp doesn't reset upon tring? great! i actually have a reason to tr after update 9 then. can i get some conformation?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SirShen

If an item is made of silver why should it be taken off? Its part of the base item. Its not free. Just like Darkwood bows ect. The base item is made of it.

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Because it's hugely imbalanced that the difference between +4 Holy and +4 Holy Silver is negligible given the massive difference in potency of those two weapons. It's simply bad design.

Silver weapons (except wraps) are so common that Silver might as well be free.

If taking the Silver off bothers you so much, add an extra cost to disjuncting Silver weapons. Just say that disjuncting weapons with special materials is exceptionally difficult.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by doubledge

so crafting xp doesn't reset upon tring? great! i actually have a reason to tr after update 9 then. can i get some conformation?

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tr'ed saturday, exp and levels of craft skill stayed. got exp grant back to 20 sunday(thank you thoon), now if i can just get someone to sticky this info in this subforum.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by steelblueskies

tr'ed saturday, exp and levels of craft skill stayed. got exp grant back to 20 sunday(thank you thoon), now if i can just get someone to sticky this info in this subforum.

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thank you so much for conformation. +1

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

The newbie won't be making a +4 Holy Burst Silver Khopesh of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane anytime soon, correct.

They might, however, be able to craft a +3 Holy Silver Khopesh of Lawful Outsider Bane in a reasonable timeframe (we'll need to see on that). That weapon will out-DPS a Mineral 2 against Elite Horoth. Or even if that is out of the question, they should at least be able to craft a +2 Silver Khopesh of Righteousness (which will break DR post-U9) to use for a while.

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Not sure if every be able to craft a +4 holy burst lower then 20th level p..
Reading the + on the shards for a item like that it equals 13,
Dont know if the read out is bugged but look it up last night I did.

+4 holy burst
+4 greater bane
+5 + weapon
13 total= 1 for first 24 for next twelve from what I can tell so far. I hope this a bug and we can make weapons at +4 or that just listed wrong when look up through the machine.

Even if make it +11 that would make it 21 level weapon under the current addition in the system. +5 weapons have min. lvl 9 current.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Because it's hugely imbalanced that the difference between +4 Holy and +4 Holy Silver is negligible given the massive difference in potency of those two weapons. It's simply bad design.

Silver weapons (except wraps) are so common that Silver might as well be free.

If taking the Silver off bothers you so much, add an extra cost to disjuncting Silver weapons. Just say that disjuncting weapons with special materials is exceptionally difficult.

---

This is completely way way way off......the metal a weapon/armor/accessory is made of is by no means at ALL a magical property and SHOULD NOT be stripped.

Silver, Byeshk, Mithral, etc is much more rare than standard items.

It's complete luck if you happen to get an item made of a rare metal...I suppose next you'll say the person that gets the rare loot they want from quests very quickly because they are lucky should have it taken away from them because it unbalances the game.

Okay....that said and no longer replying to this quote, I think the crafting system works well now, I really do not think it was meant to be a way to REPLACE rare and powerful loot but rather a different and extra option to get nice gear. I think it's really meant to be done more casually so as you go along your merry way questing you can do something interesting with your vendor trash instead of just cashing it in.

Now for the new players....wow...cry me a river....with the addition of hirelings and dungeon scaling this game no longer comes close to the plight of the new player back in the day...seriously how much plat do you really need these days to level a first life toon even a 28 point from 1-20......not much at all.

If you find yourself that desperate for potions and extra coin then break barrels.

Honestly I think a lot of this is being viewed from level 20 or soon to be TR'ed toons who want their new toys and want them now.

I would think coming from the perspective of a new player this would be a nice addition. They do not drool over the +4 holy burst silver khopesh of greater lawful outsider bane which seems to almost be what everyone is basing this whole discussion around.......what can be made to quickly replace raid, rare, epic items through crafting as quickly as possible. Rare loot can take a very long time to get...why should craftable loot of the same power be any different?

To me I think a lot of people jumped the gun about how the system was going to be from the PAX interview.....I mean come on....everything super powerful in any MMO including this one is time consuming.

IMO...this is just another option......it's not meant to be an easy button to replace acquiring "raid-like" loot in a quicker manner.

Flame away :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sirgog

You realise that the scarcer ingredients drop in chests and as end rewards right?

The store only blank trinket, OTOH, is very poor form.

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Was this not like 5TP? I see this coming up a lot and I'm like 5TP. Seriously 5....and people complain because....you get 5 tp from running quests in no time. I do not mean to offend anyone but I just dont get it. :(

I'm bothered that you basically have to buy a crafting bag to do any serious crafting, but ok. Turbine put in a good crafting system and I'm prepared to pay 5 bucks to participate. (about 500TP)

I used a silver greatsword from the store - which is craftable - and created:

+4 Holy Silver Blessed Greatsword of Lawful Outsider Bane. Decent devil boss beater I guess (effectively 6d6 + 6
I think). It's ML15 in case anyone is interested.

Personally I thing the crafting system has a lot to offer.

Suddenly +1 items with a rare metal/guild slot suddenly become more valuable. This means that newbie’s (who are given a little guidance) can sell the on the AH to give them some starting cash.

Much like the discussions over wealth the argument for crafting would be not to worry about it till you hit GH and above and you are getting inundated with vendor trash weapons. In the meantime newbie’s should be able to sell on more low-level vendor trash/good crafting items and in general be richer for it.

For vets it introduces an element of choice for their vendor trash items.
- Vendor them as you do now.
- Deconstruct them for crafting
- AH/Sell ‘good’ crafting items (metal/guild/highlevel prefix/suffix items)

A +1 adamantine ghost touch khopesh of lesser construct bane can now provide a good khopesh blank, crafting materials or some cash.

The reduction in the amount of trash weapons sold, along with the increase in AH trade will be a huge plat sink and redress the U8 plat boost.

Finally when the rare DR beaters and perfect twink weapons can be crafted their value will drop, meaning that a newbie may be able to afford to buy the occasional half decent weapon/item.

The plat rich can strip the vendors/AH for raw materials, the TP rich can buy there way to success and the time rich can farm/grind their materials. If you don’t fit into those categories you benefit from the economic boost and sell to the plat rich and buy your crafted items.

Whilst I would love to see craftable trinkets as a rare drop, currently they are almost the same as half-elves or monks; readily available to VIPs, affordable to premium players and difficult to obtain if you aren’t giving turbine any cash what-so-ever.

This is a big change and almost everyone will loose out in one way or another, but overall I think this will be a big plus to the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Thanks for all the feedback - it's very helpful. The balance is still a work-in-progress. If you think it's stingy now, you should have seen it last week. :-)

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How about not selling top tier gear for money. We told you this would happen years ago when the store first came out.

You have done a fairly good job at avoiding it so far, but this just goes too far.

There is a reason that people that play the game more have better things.

Against the giant swipe my credit card easy win button :mad:

SO I guess the point of the game now wont be about getting gear... its sure as hell not about end game content... so that leaves me with what reason to play anymore?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The_Phenx

How about not selling top tier gear for money. We told you this would happen years ago when the store first came out.

You have done a fairly good job at avoiding it so far, but this just goes too far.

There is a reason that people that play the game more have better things.

Against the giant swipe my credit card easy win button :mad:

SO I guess the point of the game now wont be about getting gear... its sure as hell not about end game content... so that leaves me with what reason to play anymore?

---

We're selling top tier gear for money now? Not to my knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something though - my thread skimming skills vary from day to day.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

We're selling top tier gear for money now? Not to my knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something though - my thread skimming skills vary from day to day.

---

What people are saying is that they can buy everything needed to make top tier loot with the new crafting system. Also, the fact that the trinket is store only doesn't help your position.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bradleyforrest

What people are saying is that they can buy everything needed to make top tier loot with the new crafting system. Also, the fact that the trinket is store only doesn't help your position.

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You still need collectibles. Turning the question on it's head, what do you expect to be for sale in the store?
Just content, cosmetics and the like?. Personally, I like the store making available materials which obviate grinding
content. All the crafting materials seem to be available from loot or from deconstructing items. All the store is
doing is providing a short cut to those whose time is worth more to them than the $ replacement. They do have
balance issues with this IMO but the fundamental principle is sound.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arctigis

You still need collectibles.

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Trivial to acquire collectibles. They're in small quantities, and very plentiful. Essences are clearly the limiting factor in crafting.

This is like saying selling Large Devil Scales is OK, because you still need to get energy cells.

Quote:

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Turning the question on it's head, what do you expect to be for sale in the store?
Just content, cosmetics and the like?.

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Yes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Trivial to acquire collectibles. They're in small quantities, and very plentiful. Essences are clearly the limiting factor in crafting.

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For crafting the final item, agreed. For leveling, I think you're underestimating the amount you'll need.
I don't mind this so much as it's a good way for new players to make money. A deferred grind is always good! ;)

Quote:

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This is like saying selling Large Devil Scales is OK, because you still need to get energy cells.

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Not exactly. LDS are only available in a few places and are reasonably rare drops. Crafting materials
can be made from virtually any random drop. The problem is the sheer quantity of items you are going
to need to crunch to make progress. I don't object to the store providing a method to bypass some of this
for those who have the $$. None of the materials are store exclusive. I agree that the trinket is a bad idea.
Random thought: Anyone tried to deconstruct a Pearl of Power?

Quote:

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Yes.

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Fine, but I don't think it will happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

We're selling top tier gear for money now? Not to my knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something though - my thread skimming skills vary from day to day.

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I posted a thread about this here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=310081

In short: by selling the primary limiting ingredients of the crafting system in the store, a crafting system capable of generating top-tier gear, you are effectively selling said top-tier gear. It's even worse for the Trinket, as there is no way to earn it in-game, short of boring and mindless favor grind.

I'm hoping the ingredients in the store are Lamannia only, to facilitate previewing, and will not be available on Live.

Think about this: would you be comfortable selling Large Devil Scales in the store? Why are the essences any different?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arctigis

You still need collectibles. Turning the question on it's head, what do you expect to be for sale in the store?
Just content, cosmetics and the like?. Personally, I like the store making available materials which obviate grinding
content. All the crafting materials seem to be available from loot or from deconstructing items. All the store is
doing is providing a short cut to those whose time is worth more to them than the $ replacement. They do have
balance issues with this IMO but the fundamental principle is sound.

---

I think having the comps to craft on the store is fine too. But I think having a glaring disparity between what you get when you invest time versus TP is the thing to look at.

I think a good solution would be to offer an increasing gain of comps from decon based on your crafting level. At least here, there is a measurable goal that gives you something noticable in game. Like earning TP; people can do it if they invest all the time to do the quests over and over... On every server... With as many slots as they have... The TP gains from doing so seem reward enough to encourage the grind.

They need the rewards from deconning to encourage grind, yet the goal of craft to be high enough to warrent people to buy into it with their TP if they don't want to invest in the grind. Just like everything else in the store.

I would love it if all levels of GS was makeable from the store. I know it would cut down on the shroud runs, but by how much? Some people don't want to put their tp into the store for components.

When you go to mmorpg.com and look at ddo in its big list, one of the options for the payment is free/item mall. For an item mall, ddo is slim compared to other mmos. I think their complex system is very unique and has many advantages for revenue that other f2p games don't have.

All that said, I think having more options available from the store is better for the game, never worse. I just think that it all has to be carefully balanced and tuned so no one feels like they are getting the short end of the stick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arctigis

For crafting the final item, agreed. For leveling, I think you're underestimating the amount you'll need.
I don't mind this so much as it's a good way for new players to make money. A deferred grind is always good! ;)

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Why would you level using those recipes? There are plenty of recipes that do not require collectibles.

Quote:

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Not exactly. LDS are only available in a few places and are reasonably rare drops. Crafting materials
can be made from virtually any random drop.

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Rare drops in limited places required in small quantities, can be equivalent to common drops in many places required in large quantities. It's all about supply and demand, not the magnitude of the numbers.

Quote:

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Fine, but I don't think it will happen.

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It's how the game is currently.

Yeah, there's a little loot selling, but I consider it inconsequental given how lousy/common they are. Nothing that has any impact on the endgame.

To be clear: I'm fine with the store as it is now. Not fine with adding important crafting ingredients to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arctigis

Turning the question on it's head, what do you expect to be for sale in the store?

---

I will answer this with my personal opinions, so take this with a grain of salt - Yes I expect content and cosmetics; I also expect convenience items (but not BTC ones - looking at you, huge bags). What I do NOT expect and highly disapprove of is any item whose effects cannot be duplicated or easily replicated. Personally I do not like the anti-beholder trinkets and anti-mummy elixirs: the anti-beholder trinket trivializes the necklace from Invaders, and puts it in a much less competitive spot. The anti-mummy elixirs I would be all for if they were put in as plat-buyable as well, even for an exorbitant amount, maybe similar to the Amrath potions. Saying "The store loot can drop in chests" is not sufficient, unless they raise the drop rate very substantially, like making the chance to get any piece (not a specific piece, but any piece) of store loot approximately the same chance as getting a mana pot in a chest.

As for the crafting ingredients, this to me is really at the line. They are not selling anything that you could not get through enough ingame grinding (I consider the XP booster and percentage booster to be convenience items). But the AMOUNT of convenience that they are selling here is teetering on my personal borderline. In order to get your crafting up to levels high enough to reliably create high-level recipes, you currently have to do a LOT of crunching - either getting the weapons through questing, the AH, or donated through your guild/friends. The easy way around this is to buy the ingredients on the auction house. This, combined with the XP boosters and percentage boosters, are what have many people nervous about the new system - myself included.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Why would you level using those recipes? There are plenty of recipes that do not require collectibles.

---

I believe people have said that each recipe has some level of diminishing returns for the exp, i.e. the more times you do a recipe, the less exp you gain... so if this is the case, a greater variety in the recipes you do, which will require more collectibles, will have a better return on exp for leveling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trillea

I will answer this with my personal opinions, so take this with a grain of salt - Yes I expect content and cosmetics; I also expect convenience items (but not BTC ones - looking at you, huge bags). What I do NOT expect and highly disapprove of is any item whose effects cannot be duplicated or easily replicated. Personally I do not like the anti-beholder trinkets and anti-mummy elixirs: the anti-beholder trinket trivializes the necklace from Invaders, and puts it in a much less competitive spot. The anti-mummy elixirs I would be all for if they were put in as plat-buyable as well, even for an exorbitant amount, maybe similar to the Amrath potions. Saying "The store loot can drop in chests" is not sufficient, unless they raise the drop rate very substantially, like making the chance to get any piece (not a specific piece, but any piece) of store loot approximately the same chance as getting a mana pot in a chest.

As for the crafting ingredients, this to me is really at the line. They are not selling anything that you could not get through enough ingame grinding (I consider the XP booster and percentage booster to be convenience items). But the AMOUNT of convenience that they are selling here is teetering on my personal borderline. In order to get your crafting up to levels high enough to reliably create high-level recipes, you currently have to do a LOT of crunching - either getting the weapons through questing, the AH, or donated through your guild/friends. The easy way around this is to buy the ingredients on the auction house. This, combined with the XP boosters and percentage boosters, are what have many people nervous about the new system - myself included.

---

Exactly. I hope we see a questionairre about the store offerings for crafting ingredients so we can chime in with some reasonable feedback.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

We're selling top tier gear for money now? Not to my knowledge. Maybe I'm missing something though - my thread skimming skills vary from day to day.

---

It's pretty hard to miss the largest thread in this section.

And to answer your question. Yes, Turbine is selling top tier gear for money now on Lamaland.

The crafting system does allow for the crafting of top tier gear and you sell the crafting materials in the Turbine Store.

Unless your contention is that the crafting system can only create inferior junk or that the Lamaland store is wrong and all this crafting stuff will not be available in the live store?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cyr

It's pretty hard to miss the largest thread in this section.

And to answer your question. Yes, Turbine is selling top tier gear for money now on Lamaland.

The crafting system does allow for the crafting of top tier gear and you sell the crafting materials in the Turbine Store.

Unless your contention is that the crafting system can only create inferior junk or that the Lamaland store is wrong and all this crafting stuff will not be available in the live store?

---

Here, from my experience, this is what I see:
Lam is test. The items available on the store will not be there due to negative outcry from the playerbase.
After a while, when people get out of their waambulance, the store will get some updates that include ingredients, relative to the low average of mined values from actual gameplay logs. This way the amount per tp is what would be considered a 'sweet spot'. High enough to attract some purchases from many people in the community, but not enough per tp to make the people who hate item malls to complain too much.

Again, that is from my experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Trillea

I will answer this with my personal opinions, so take this with a grain of salt - Yes I expect content and cosmetics; I also expect convenience items (but not BTC ones - looking at you, huge bags). What I do NOT expect and highly disapprove of is any item whose effects cannot be duplicated or easily replicated. Personally I do not like the anti-beholder trinkets and anti-mummy elixirs: the anti-beholder trinket trivializes the necklace from Invaders, and puts it in a much less competitive spot. The anti-mummy elixirs I would be all for if they were put in as plat-buyable as well, even for an exorbitant amount, maybe similar to the Amrath potions. Saying "The store loot can drop in chests" is not sufficient, unless they raise the drop rate very substantially, like making the chance to get any piece (not a specific piece, but any piece) of store loot approximately the same chance as getting a mana pot in a chest.

As for the crafting ingredients, this to me is really at the line. They are not selling anything that you could not get through enough ingame grinding (I consider the XP booster and percentage booster to be convenience items). But the AMOUNT of convenience that they are selling here is teetering on my personal borderline. In order to get your crafting up to levels high enough to reliably create high-level recipes, you currently have to do a LOT of crunching - either getting the weapons through questing, the AH, or donated through your guild/friends. The easy way around this is to buy the ingredients on the auction house. This, combined with the XP boosters and percentage boosters, are what have many people nervous about the new system - myself included.

---

I agree. I'm also not happy with the balance at the moment between store and in-game acquired.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Seikojin

Lam is test. The items available on the store will not be there due to negative outcry from the playerbase.

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Hopefully, but I'm frankly shocked at how many people actually disagreed with me on this. I never expected the kind of response my thread got.

Quote:

---

After a while, when people get out of their waambulance, the store will get some updates that include ingredients, relative to the low average of mined values from actual gameplay logs. This way the amount per tp is what would be considered a 'sweet spot'. High enough to attract some purchases from many people in the community, but not enough per tp to make the people who hate item malls to complain too much.

---

Hopefully not. I don't think there's a possible "sweet spot". What would the sweet spot be for Large Devil Scales?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Why would you level using those recipes? There are plenty of recipes that do not require collectibles.

---

I have only have my experiences to go on but this is tough to do because of the crafting XP decay and
extents of recipes which all require some other materials. i.e. the next recipe which doesn't require some
random collectible may be at a success rate which is prohibitive. My leveling on Lammania has, essentially,
stalled a little because of this issue.

Quote:

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Rare drops in limited places required in small quantities, can be equivalent to common drops in many places required in large quantities. It's all about supply and demand, not the magnitude of the numbers.

---

Right. This is what I meant by balance. At the moment, the deconstruction rates suggest to me that I'm
going to be needing to spend TP in the store if I want to craft. As I don't want to spend TP in the store
on this stuff, I won't be crafting on live.

Quote:

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It's how the game is currently.

Yeah, there's a little loot selling, but I consider it inconsequental given how lousy/common they are. Nothing that has any impact on the endgame.

To be clear: I'm fine with the store as it is now. Not fine with adding important crafting ingredients to it.

---

Sure. As someone else mentioned, I'm more peeved about the Mummy and Beholder nerfs they sell...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bradleyforrest

What people are saying is that they can buy everything needed to make top tier loot with the new crafting system. Also, the fact that the trinket is store only doesn't help your position.

---

Who said the trinket was store only?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Who said the trinket was store only?

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Cutting to the chase, the store will not be the only way to craft a trinket.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Who said the trinket was store only?

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OK, where else can you get it? We can't disjunct any trinkets currently ingame, and I have not seen anyone post either ingame on in forums that they have gotten one any other way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Cutting to the chase, the store will not be the only way to craft a trinket.

---

Glad to hear it. I think the description might need an update. Last I knew, it said "Craftable trinkets are only available in the DDO Store!"

Any comment on the crafting ingredients being available in the store?

Posted elsewhere also:

There is an item in the loot table that drops that can equip to the trinket slot. This is a moderately rare item, but it is one that many of you have used, though in a different context. That should be enough of a hint ...

Stone of good luck may be?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thoon

Posted elsewhere also:

There is an item in the loot table that drops that can equip to the trinket slot. This is a moderately rare item, but it is one that many of you have used, though in a different context. That should be enough of a hint ...

---

Hmmm... anyone tried a Shard of Power?

Shards of POWAH!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Thoon

Posted elsewhere also:

There is an item in the loot table that drops that can equip to the trinket slot. This is a moderately rare item, but it is one that many of you have used, though in a different context. That should be enough of a hint ...

---

If it is a bloodstone I will never be able to craft. Ever. They only exist for other people.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Hmmm... anyone tried a Shard of Power?

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Interesting considering that would still lock out most new players until they hit around level 14 or so from crafting these unless they used the store...

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Originally Posted by barryman5000

Shards of POWAH!

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Aww HECK nah! They are hard enough to get for each character's greensteel, and bind to character! Unless using an unbound recipe on them unbinds the shard (if this is correct) this would NOT be an acceptable thing.

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Hmmm... anyone tried a Shard of Power?

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You can indeed deconstruct a shard of power!

Great and supreme shards seem not to work however.

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Originally Posted by Trillea

Aww HECK nah! They are hard enough to get for each character's greensteel, and bind to character! Unless using an unbound recipe on them unbinds the shard (if this is correct) this would NOT be an acceptable thing.

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I doubt there is a distinction between those and the much more common Great and Supreme shards.

Limiting Trinket crafting to shroud-running characters or store purchasers is not a great solution, though.

Assuming that I'm right. Don't have access to the game to test currently.

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Originally Posted by InSoNiAc

You can indeed deconstruct a shard of power!

Great and supreme shards seem not to work however.

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Nevermind... that's kind of cruel. But better than nothing.

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Originally Posted by Trillea

OK, where else can you get it? We can't disjunct any trinkets currently ingame, and I have not seen anyone post either ingame on in forums that they have gotten one any other way.

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It has been added to the general treasure table so it will begin appearing in game. It will also appear in some specific places (I think Three Barrel Cove and a few others that I can't recall). There is already one craftable trinket that appears in the game as it is.

The reason it was put in the store was for convenience. If the description says its a store-only item, that is an error.

You probably wouldn't want to decon paralyzers, since they're actually valuable, unless they're high ML with trash effects. The way things are set up, you get decon mats by school, so it makes much more sense to decon for whatever skill is in the same school.

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Originally Posted by InSoNiAc

You can indeed deconstruct a shard of power!

Great and supreme shards seem not to work however.

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Are they still bound after deconstruction?

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Originally Posted by Trillea

Are they still bound after deconstruction?

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Unfortunately the description still says bound to character. But I haven't physically tried to trade one and test it out.

The trinket of swiming +11?

lol

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

The reason it was put in the store was for convenience. If the description says its a store-only item, that is an error.

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Convenience only for previewing on Lamannia, or should we expect this convenience on Live?

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Originally Posted by InSoNiAc

Unfortunately the description still says bound to character. But I haven't physically tried to trade one and test it out.

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Unacceptable. Fix it, devs! Please bug report this InS

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Hopefully, but I'm frankly shocked at how many people actually disagreed with me on this. I never expected the kind of response my thread got.

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At this stage in the games existence, I wouldn't be shocked. I think a ton of people are at the point where they wouldn't mind paying for convenience and make some assumptions on how things are going to play out concerning crafting. To do so though asks for the system to bite them in the backside.

Providing any feedback, intelligently, is always accepted by developers. I work with them day in and day out and know from experience that if you aren't rude, you can get a lot of what you want done without a fuss.

So when I see a thread like this, I try to get involved. Sometimes hard when there is a ton of heat from people who are rage-responding.

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Hopefully not. I don't think there's a possible "sweet spot". What would the sweet spot be for Large Devil Scales?

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When it comes down to it, money talks, features walk. I am not trying to say this in a rude way, just a realistic way. They need to make money in order to get their wages, vest interest from corperate doners, and put more content into the product to keep the cycle going. Since DDO has an item mall option to their income column, they need to bolster it with items to generate revenue from. Instead of handing premade GS items (like some mmo's do; their equivelent of at least), they offer some of the stuff needed to make them. Not everything, but some. This is because the rate at which people buy them does not merit demand to increase the items on the store.

The amount they offer for smalls is not anything more than you can earn on your way to get your first tier 3 completed. This suggests some data mining into the server datalogs on the frequency people pulled those items. I believe, for anything else, the same would be applicable. Leave the drop out of the store, mine results from X amount of existence as a pull, crunch some values, subtract a few off the results, compile interest in the item versus dollar values (maybe using the monthly fee as a base, breaking it into average play hours, then dividing it down into play minutes, then get a per minute, per dollar figure), then put it on the store. By then, it has been 3 or 4 months since the content hit the chests, so interest should be coming close to a high. Now that some people know the grind for the gear, their interest for an easy way to obtain peaks just when it appears on the store; 5 for 25tp.

As for larges? It is a pretty rare drop. If you were to mine the results of some pulls, you would find that you can get 1 LDS per 2 complete runs of shroud (normal) on average.

You can debate that all you want, but I am taking a large collective of information and running averages on it (personal soruces).

Given the rarity, I would think 75tp per LDS would be the 'sweet spot' It would ruin a platsink in game for sure, but its tp cost is enough to warrent trying in game rather than easy buttoning them into your inventory all the time.

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Originally Posted by dkyle

Hmmm... anyone tried a Shard of Power?

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Ding!

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Originally Posted by MadFloyd

It has been added to the general treasure table so it will begin appearing in game. It will also appear in some specific places (I think Three Barrel Cove and a few others that I can't recall). There is already one craftable trinket that appears in the game as it is.

The reason it was put in the store was for convenience. If the description says its a store-only item, that is an error.

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Whoa, Whoa , Whoa here .... back that truck up.

did I just read that shards of power will be dropping in 3BC and a couple other places as well as the general loot table?

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Originally Posted by t0r012

Whoa, Whoa , Whoa here .... back that truck up.

did I just read that shards of power will be dropping in 3BC and a couple other places as well as the general loot table?

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More likely the craftable version will drop, and you won't have to disjunct it.

I would be happy to be wrong though.

Lovely its not a store only! That made me happy (even if i have to admit i just buy it if i want it cause im lazy, as i do xp pots and mana pots).

Shard of power does become craftable after you use dust of disjunction on it.

(Standard): Item Deconstruction success with Equipment Disjunction! Consumed: Dust of Disjunction. Created: Shard of Power. Shard of Power becomes Shard of Power.

http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i2..._craftable.jpg

At least they're hard and durable :cool: