Mechanically impossible to solo

I think it would be keen if instances that can't be soloed without a hireling or party member were flagged more consistantly than they are currently. I have stumbled across several that I got stuck in because i couldn't be in two places at once, but did not state they required a party. "Requires at least one part member or a hireling" in the description would be helpull. Spending an hour clearing out a hardass instance just to get stuck because it's set to need an extra party member pretty much utterly sucks.

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Originally Posted by yfernbottom

I think it would be keen if instances that can't be soloed without a hireling or party member were flagged more consistantly than they are currently. I have stumbled across several that I got stuck in because i couldn't be in two places at once, but did not state they required a party. "Requires at least one part member or a hireling" in the description would be helpull. Spending an hour clearing out a hardass instance just to get stuck because it's set to need an extra party member pretty much utterly sucks.

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Every quest has a recommendation on how many party members you may need, ignore the recommendation at your own peril. :-)

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Originally Posted by yfernbottom

"Requires at least one part member or a hireling" in the description would be helpull.

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I believe the phrasing the game currently uses is like "Caution: this is an especially challenging dungeon that might require more characters (hirelings may not suffice)"

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Originally Posted by yfernbottom

Spending an hour clearing out a hardass instance just to get stuck because it's set to need an extra party member pretty much utterly sucks.

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And which dungeon was that? (If you give the name then there's a high probability someone will come in and tell you that either you didn't need anyone else, or you weren't really far in)

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Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

/snip..
And which dungeon was that? (If you give the name then there's a high probability someone will come in and tell you that either you didn't need anyone else, or you weren't really far in)

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Places 2 plat bet on spot marked Delera's part 2 :)

Saal :)
(although you can use a hireling for the lever)

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Originally Posted by yfernbottom

I think it would be keen if instances that can't be soloed without a hireling or party member were flagged more consistantly than they are currently. I have stumbled across several that I got stuck in because i couldn't be in two places at once, but did not state they required a party. "Requires at least one part member or a hireling" in the description would be helpull. Spending an hour clearing out a hardass instance just to get stuck because it's set to need an extra party member pretty much utterly sucks.

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This is a recurring thread, you will generally see indication on the quest mechanics in what the quest giver says. It happens, for example, in the Necropolis quests.

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Originally Posted by Saaluta

Places 2 plat bet on spot marked Delera's part 2 :)

Saal :)
(although you can use a hireling for the lever)

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It was Delara's part 2. I hope I stumbled across one of the few quests that will nail me this way, without saying "balanced party recommended" or something to the effect. I don't mind needing a hireling, I'd just like to know I will need one before I head in. Absolutely no warning is given that DT II can't be soloed without a hireling on normal.

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Originally Posted by Morningfrost

This is a recurring thread, you will generally see indication on the quest mechanics in what the quest giver says. It happens, for example, in the Necropolis quests.

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Necropolis is good about warning you that you will need a party for certain quests, you just need to read the description when you hit the door to the instance. What ticks me off is reading difficulty description identical to quests that are perfectly solo-able, only to discover I need a henchman or a party member 30-60 minutes in.

One of the necro quests, shadow (lord) i beleave. -the one with the switches-
Xorian Cypher
Deleras (sorta)


Of note both these quests have a warning, it used to not be this way at all.....so your prayers have already been answered.

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Originally Posted by karnokvolrath

One of the necro quests, shadow (lord) i beleave. -the one with the switches-
Xorian Cypher
Deleras (sorta)


Of note both these quests have a warning, it used to not be this way at all.....so your prayers have already been answered.

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Maybe the quest giver says something, but I can assure you that the door to Delaria's 2 doesn't give you the slightest warning you will be screwed without a henchman. Given the fact that you often find quests a level or two early, it's pretty commonplace for me to just head to the yellow door on my map and see whether it says I need a party. I guess I could google all of them, but that doesn't seem like the most user freindly system to me.

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Originally Posted by yfernbottom

Maybe the quest giver says something, but I can assure you that the door to Delaria's 2 doesn't give you the slightest warning you will be screwed without a henchman. Given the fact that you often find quests a level or two early, it's pretty commonplace for me to just head to the yellow door on my map and see whether it says I need a party. I guess I could google all of them, but that doesn't seem like the most user freindly system to me.

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Hhmm, im not possitive on the Deleras one, i do know the other two definatly say to bring friends. I ran them fairly recently and thought "wow thats cool took them long enough".

If it doesnt say it on deleras it sould.

Cracks me up they would bother to make note of it on two quests and not them all, classic turbine hijinx though.

I always pick up a hireling when I go into new content just to be sure.

It's not like they cost a lot.

Get a level one healer and park him/her at the door as an insurance policy for levers in unfamiliar quests.

just my 2cp

... Next you are gonna want the quests to say "Require x Int". Was trying to solo Von 3 and forgot i need Int for the runes >.> But even then i dont want it in the quest description.

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Originally Posted by phillymiket

I always pick up a hireling when I go into new content just to be sure.

It's not like they cost a lot.

Get a level one healer and park him/her at the door as an insurance policy for levers in unfamiliar quests.

just my 2cp

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Careful - some quests spawn mobs at the start of the quest :D Good advice, though - I normally carry 2.

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Originally Posted by pasterqb

... Next you are gonna want the quests to say "Require x Int". Was trying to solo Von 3 and forgot i need Int for the runes >.> But even then i dont want it in the quest description.

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Maybe the quest entrance should have a "Spoiler" link on it, so those who don't like to waste time discovering the ins-and-outs of a new quest can cut straight to the chase.

I know that sounds sarcastic and snippy, but that's what I wanted when I was running Spies in the House the very first time for favor on a capped toon... come to think of it, I never did finish that :D

I blame it on grinding - I've totally lost my adventurous spirit, and just want everything as simple and quick as I can 'cause I know I'm going to have to run it over and over and over...

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Originally Posted by UltraMonk2

Every quest has a recommendation on how many party members you may need, ignore the recommendation at your own peril. :-)

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However some are marked as solo-able and yet need [an] extra party member[s] - Rest for the Restless is an example, you need either a hireling or another party member to turn the switch (locking them in the little corner) so that the other player can continue past a gate. Nowhere in the quest description, quest entry dialogue, or quest giver description is it stated [that I could find] that you need more than one person in there.

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Originally Posted by Saaluta

Places 2 plat bet on spot marked Delera's part 2 :)

Saal :)
(although you can use a hireling for the lever)

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Too bad the odds weren't so great; you could have made some good money on that one...lol

Being this is a party friendly game, I don't think every quest should be soloable. I have no problem with quests REQUIRING a party to complete, I find them a lot of fun. Keep in mind soloing every quest is far from the norm. Stick to the ones with a "solo" option to be sure not to run into these issues.

Delera's 2 doesn't require any more then one person. You only need two if you want to get all optionals. But optionals are optional. If you want all optionals in all of Delera's you are also going to need a lock opener.

Edit: Sorry, I meant any more then one person with hireling, for some reason I assume anyone doing 'soloing' has a hireling. Bad assumption on my part.

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Originally Posted by MrkGrismer

Delera's 2 doesn't require any more then one person. You only need two if you want to get all optionals. But optionals are optional. If you want all optionals in all of Delera's you are also going to need a lock opener.

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Wrong in some respects. ONe PLAYER with a hireling can complete Delara's 2. One character alone cannot complete the quest.

On almost every quest with a requirement like that they have added text to the entry page when you pop it up that indicates the minimum number required to complete in their minds. In most cases it is a very conservative number. For example the PIT quest indicates that 3 are required, yet that quest is readily soloed. 3 would be convienent, but are far from required. Delaras is one of the few quests where 2 enties, characters or character and hireling are required.

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Originally Posted by MrkGrismer

Delera's 2 doesn't require any more then one person. You only need two if you want to get all optionals. But optionals are optional. If you want all optionals in all of Delera's you are also going to need a lock opener.

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Completely false. You must have a 2nd for the brief moment it takes to flip "stoplight" lever a couple of times.

**** you Zenako...too slow.....

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Originally Posted by carlosjuero

However some are marked as solo-able and yet need [an] extra party member[s] - Rest for the Restless is an example, you need either a hireling or another party member to turn the switch (locking them in the little corner) so that the other player can continue past a gate. Nowhere in the quest description, quest entry dialogue, or quest giver description is it stated [that I could find] that you need more than one person in there.

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Restless can be soloed with a ddoor scroll. (Or you can just recall out and come back in.)

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Originally Posted by Mellkor

Being this is a party friendly game, I don't think every quest should be soloable. I have no problem with quests REQUIRING a party to complete, I find them a lot of fun. Keep in mind soloing every quest is far from the norm. Stick to the ones with a "solo" option to be sure not to run into these issues.

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Too bad this game still doesn't have the player base size to truly support 'a party based game'. At least not a full party, which is what many puggers hold out for (foolishly, I might add).

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Originally Posted by yfernbottom

I think it would be keen if instances that can't be soloed without a hireling or party member were flagged more consistantly than they are currently. I have stumbled across several that I got stuck in because i couldn't be in two places at once, but did not state they required a party. "Requires at least one part member or a hireling" in the description would be helpull. Spending an hour clearing out a hardass instance just to get stuck because it's set to need an extra party member pretty much utterly sucks.

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/signed

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Originally Posted by UltraMonk2

Every quest has a recommendation on how many party members you may need, ignore the recommendation at your own peril. :-)

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If it is a recomendation then it isn't a requirement. One speaks to the difficulty you can expect, the other speaks to being required to complete.

Yep, I'll just echo what was mentioned earlier - always carry a hireling with you for any content you haven't done before.

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Originally Posted by Phidius

I know that sounds sarcastic and snippy, but that's what I wanted when I was running Spies in the House the very first time for favor on a capped toon... come to think of it, I never did finish that :D

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I may have missed your point, but Spies doesn't require two poeple to complete.

I am running a TR2 exploiter right now and have solo'd more individual quests than I have grouped. Granted, I am lv 17 and have not run every quest in the game but I have run a good majority. I have yet to come across a quest that can not be run using carefully placed hirelings. This includes all of necro and deleras. Delera's two can definitely be done with one hireling, more if you want to do all the optionals.

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Originally Posted by Mellkor

Being this is a party friendly game, I don't think every quest should be soloable. I have no problem with quests REQUIRING a party to complete, I find them a lot of fun. Keep in mind soloing every quest is far from the norm. Stick to the ones with a "solo" option to be sure not to run into these issues.

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But the OP isn't disputing this. They just wish it was made more clear in the quests description if it does require more than one person.

Carry a hireling or buy one off the store. What next, say how many healing potions are needed for a quest? WARNING! Mobs in this dungeon may cast the blind spell, enter without blind removal potions at your own risk!

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Originally Posted by oweieie

Carry a hireling or buy one off the store. What next, say how many healing potions are needed for a quest? WARNING! Mobs in this dungeon may cast the blind spell, enter without blind removal potions at your own risk!

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The difference being that unlike the number of healing potions you will need (because it is variable on way to many factores) they do know the minimum bodies needed to accomplish the tasks in said quest.

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Originally Posted by Potvin

Too bad this game still doesn't have the player base size to truly support 'a party based game'. At least not a full party, which is what many puggers hold out for (foolishly, I might add).

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What server are you running on? Khyber has plenty of player base. ~8 markeplace instances regularly. 2 Meridia instances, sometimes 3.

I've run Delera's 5 times in the last week on my TR. Threw up an LFM and was off and running within 10 minutes in all cases with a full party.

The only soft spot for grouping that I can ever see is in the 11-13.

In any case, I'm not sure where a player base comment has any relevance in a thread on how certain quests should be more clearly marked when they are not soloable.

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Originally Posted by oweieie

Carry a hireling or buy one off the store. What next, say how many healing potions are needed for a quest? WARNING! Mobs in this dungeon may cast the blind spell, enter without blind removal potions at your own risk!

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Your slippery slope is a little extreme. The OP has a reasonable request of letting people know up front that some quests are designed to take multiple people due to simultaneous non-adjacent triggers.

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Originally Posted by Drakos

I may have missed your point, but Spies doesn't require two poeple to complete.

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I think his point was that identifying how many party members are needed might be viewed as a spoiler as to the content of the dungeon by some and there is a part of the player base that does not want to know what is coming up in the dungeon if they are new to it. Thus, it might not be advisable for Turbine to put such information on the quest window.

I think he was using Spies as simply an example of brand new content that he did not already have memorized.

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Originally Posted by Montrose

Your slippery slope is a little extreme. The OP has a reasonable request of letting people know up front that some quests are designed to take multiple people due to simultaneous non-adjacent triggers.

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Quite honestly, this sort of information: levers, maps, common mobs to be encountered, advisable spells to use, consumables, etc. is all available in the forums, (Lost Quest Guide, FTW) and in the ddo wiki. I'd advise the OP to use these player created and maintaned resources to avoid such disappointment in the future.

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Originally Posted by Montrose

Restless can be soloed with a ddoor scroll. (Or you can just recall out and come back in.)

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Scrolls are kind of useless to no/low UMD Barbs :) - and taking an XP hit to complete the quest isn't the most ideal way to go about it (imo).

My main point with that post was this: If the quest had been labeled as requiring X people instead of showing up as soloable, then I would have either gotten a Hireling, put up an LFG, or gone onto something else until I got a party going.

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Originally Posted by pasterqb

... Next you are gonna want the quests to say "Require x Int". Was trying to solo Von 3 and forgot i need Int for the runes >.> But even then i dont want it in the quest description.

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I did this too... I actually bought an INT potion from the DDO store just so I didn't have to start over.

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Originally Posted by DDOTalk71

Quite honestly, this sort of information: levers, maps, common mobs to be encountered, advisable spells to use, consumables, etc. is all available in the forums, (Lost Quest Guide, FTW) and in the ddo wiki. I'd advise the OP to use these player created and maintaned resources to avoid such disappointment in the future.

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While the text doesnt hurt, this is the best answer to the question, period.

The communitty is here, use it.\\+1

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

I did this too... I actually bought an INT potion from the DDO store just so I didn't have to start over.

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Thats Awsome :).

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Originally Posted by DDOTalk71

Quite honestly, this sort of information: levers, maps, common mobs to be encountered, advisable spells to use, consumables, etc. is all available in the forums, (Lost Quest Guide, FTW) and in the ddo wiki. I'd advise the OP to use these player created and maintaned resources to avoid such disappointment in the future.

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Should a player who doesn't know the quest be required to use those resources to find this out though? If they have labeled other quests as requiring X people, then why the inconsistency? Considering the developers have spent dev time on changing tooltip descriptions for damage [something that has no direct affect on gameplay], I don't really think it is too much for the OP to want the quests to be labeled more intuitively.

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Originally Posted by DDOTalk71

Quite honestly, this sort of information: levers, maps, common mobs to be encountered, advisable spells to use, consumables, etc. is all available in the forums, (Lost Quest Guide, FTW) and in the ddo wiki. I'd advise the OP to use these player created and maintaned resources to avoid such disappointment in the future.

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The problem is thats a flow breaker. I want to play the game, not stop, hunt down an answer on the forums and play a quest, stop, hunt down info on the forums and play another...

Honestly I'd be perfectly happy if they included a sandbag vendor so that you could wedge switches and pressure plates in place.

Heck make it something you get via trap-making if you must.

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Originally Posted by yfernbottom

I think it would be keen if instances that can't be soloed without a hireling or party member were flagged more consistantly than they are currently. I have stumbled across several that I got stuck in because i couldn't be in two places at once, but did not state they required a party. "Requires at least one part member or a hireling" in the description would be helpull. Spending an hour clearing out a hardass instance just to get stuck because it's set to need an extra party member pretty much utterly sucks.

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Deleras part 2
Rest for the restless :D

Okay now that I got my smark aleck remarks out of the way...

I agree that quests such as I mentioned should have some type of notation that they require at least 2 people to complete.

I know my hubby has been stuck in rest for the restless before and I have noticed in general chat people asking for help.

Some type of this quest is not soloable would be nice or something to indicate needs at least 2.

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Originally Posted by Montrose

Restless can be soloed with a ddoor scroll. (Or you can just recall out and come back in.)

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Yes and loose 10% from the re-entry, and this for norm, hard and elite. So yes we can, but it would be better if we could use the hirelings for what they where created for...

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Originally Posted by SisAmethyst

Yes and loose 10% from the re-entry, and this for norm, hard and elite. So yes we can, but it would be better if we could use the hirelings for what they where created for...

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You can use a hireling for this same lever. Put the hireling at the lever (valve, technically, I believe) and make them stay there. Back away, then hit the use button.

Bonus points for clicking to summon the hireling out of that room or dismissing them before they die (you don't need them again, or if you really want them you can rujn back to the start, wait 5 min, and re-summon).

I don't think there is a single quest in the game that can't be soloed with the proper preparation before you enter the quest.

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Originally Posted by tolana

I don't think there is a single quest in the game that can't be soloed with the proper preparation before you enter the quest.

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Solo ... or solo-with-hireling ... big difference

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Originally Posted by oweieie

Carry a hireling or buy one off the store. What next, say how many healing potions are needed for a quest? WARNING! Mobs in this dungeon may cast the blind spell, enter without blind removal potions at your own risk!

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^^this

And then don't forget to add something like, "and remember Remove Blindness potions are available for purchase in the DDO Store"

:p

I have to agree with the OP on this one. There's a huge difference between being able to solo an entire instance, but not be able to finish because you need a lever thrower. This happened to me more than once, but most noticeably in Shadow Knight. I was two levels bellow the quest and pretty much soloed the entire quest with what I thought was some great and careful gameplay (especially considering I had never run it before).

When I finally got stuck, I even put in a ticket request because I thought it was bugged...only to be told by a GM that I needed to have someone else with me and a hireling wouldn't do the trick. Well that was 2 hours out of my day and really sat wrong with me. I am totally fine with quests that need a party (I kinda like it even), but to experience a quest that I could solo gameplay-wise, but that I need someone for one minute is a little disappointing.

Just something that says "cannot be soloed" would be nice. No other spoilers are needed. Get a group and go for it, or skip and find something else. But to get all the way through and hit a brick wall...

Arguing whether or not they should do this is moot. It is done; it just needs to be done more thoroughly. In addition to a lot of the lower level quest mentioned so far (Xoriat, Necro, Deleras), there are two I have come across that are not marked, but do require 2 or more:

Fleshmaker's Laboratory (maybe doable without a hireling if you have like +100% speed or something).
Gianthold Tor

Someone else mentioned about how they disagree with this concept and sarcastically mused on how marking quests that require a certain stat to complete would be next. It is a lame design attempt to require a certain feature to complete a quest that the player might not have. For example, Reclamation requires a 20 str to complete. Kind of lame if you ask me. Imagine old D&D and no one in the party has the appropriate stat.

"OK then guys, " says the DM, "guess we're done here."

Make certain things like that bonus material; not required. Xoriat is a good example. If you have someone in the party with the appropriate stats, you dont have to deal with those things roaming all over.

The "hirelings may not suffice" should be enough warning.
If one such quest like delera II don't say it then it is due a bug report.

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Originally Posted by Drakos

I may have missed your point, but Spies doesn't require two poeple to complete.

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I just meant that if the door had a Spoiler link, I would have been able to find out that there were puzzles in the quest and how to quickly bypass them without needing to take the time to solve them.

Basically, the easy way out :D

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Originally Posted by Tymoriel_Ayreweaver

.... I have yet to come across a quest that can not be run using carefully placed hirelings. This includes all of necro and deleras...

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I believe you missed one. One of the pre-reqs for the Cursed Crypt (Necro 3) involves passing a gear to another person through bars after using it to unlock a lever.

As far as I know, you cannot give an item to a hireling, let alone ask for it back...

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Originally Posted by DDOTalk71

...

I think he was using Spies as simply an example of brand new content that he did not already have memorized.

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Yup, you got it.

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Originally Posted by tolana

I don't think there is a single quest in the game that can't be soloed with the proper preparation before you enter the quest.

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Necro 3 has such a quest... see above.

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Originally Posted by Phidius

I believe you missed one. One of the pre-reqs for the Cursed Crypt (Necro 3) involves passing a gear to another person through bars after using it to unlock a lever.

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I have done this one with a hireling. All you need to do is unlock the gear, but not follow through with the motion. Then a hireling can finish it when you run to the other side.

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Originally Posted by donfilibuster

The "hirelings may not suffice" should be enough warning.
If one such quest like delera II don't say it then it is due a bug report.

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The problem here is that there are two kinds of quests that say this: one that does not require two sets of hands, and one that does require two sets of hands. Dungeons need to be marked to make that distinction.

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Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

I believe the phrasing the game currently uses is like "Caution: this is an especially challenging dungeon that might require more characters (hirelings may not suffice)"

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Haha. That's not entirely accurate. I was doing And The Dead Shall Rise..or something close to that title, that lv 12 dungeon in Delera's that's in that Spire. I'm thinking it will be difficult..I busted that quest out in 28 minutes (due to me having to go afk a few times for a bit) without even losing 20% of my or my hirelings health. I did play it on normal of course and I am lv 16, but there are many other dungeons that say "of average difficulty" that are less difficult. Frankly I was surprised completely. Even the boss got owned without much trouble. I was like really? I didn't even have to go Rage on him. Course like I said I am lv 16 so maybe that had a lot to do with it. But then again other dungeons of that level have given me a harder time so I don't know.

Almost all of the party size recommendations on the entry GUI are very conservative. As someone already mentioned, even that necro guest with the gears can be done by a single player (albeit with hirelings).

What becomes a bone of contention for many however, is there are many quests where with X players, a certain action is trivial to accomplish, but with less than X it might require precise timing or use of hirelings to overcome. The PIT is somewhat infamous for that. The Entry GUI IIRC says you NEED 3 or more to complete. That is completely untrue, given how often the quest is purely soloed. You do not NEED 3, 2 might be convienent to avoid having to time the jumps after turning the valves, but difinitely not 3.

I can think of only 1 quest with a Stat Rune that would prevent Completion if no one has the stats, and that would be Von3b with those INT runes. HOWEVER, with the advent of hirelings, I do believe that any WIZ hireling would easily have the INT to activate it. (I do not recall the specific GUI on that one, but IIRC it says something to the effect of a full balanced party is recommended.) If it says that, then I would read it to mean that unless I can do most of the things a full party could accomplish, via skills, spells or stats, that it would be unwise to attempt to solo such a quest.

Redemption does have the final lever to throw, and I guess it has a STR requirement, but had not run into it, since it had never been an issue and unless you are not strong enough, those kind of pop warnings never show up. Same solution is easily in place however. Now to hit a 20 STR is not that hard for a dedicated solo'er. Starting with a mere 10 STR + 2 tome +6 Item and +2 from Rage Ring gets you there. Or add in various stat pots from collectibles.

Anyone seriously trying to solo cannot build one trick ponies to succeed.

My Ranger/Rogue can solo quite well, can hit most stat runes with ease (has to work to get his CHA over 18 now, but pots can do that if needed.) It is built for soloing.

My classic cleric can solo, but again, was built as an all around character, not a limited focus.

Should the quest warn you of minimum numbers, maybe, maybe not. It should be consistent however, if quest A and quest B both need 2 player/hirelings, they both should state that, or not. I think you'd be justified in being a bit miffed if you'd just done quest A(you need 2) and got stuck in quest B (balanced party).

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Originally Posted by Azhanti

Should the quest warn you of minimum numbers, maybe, maybe not. It should be consistent however, if quest A and quest B both need 2 player/hirelings, they both should state that, or not. I think you'd be justified in being a bit miffed if you'd just done quest A(you need 2) and got stuck in quest B (balanced party).

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From my experience whenever they give a fixed number of players needed, that is because they look at the quest mechanics and determine the number of dumb warm bodies it takes to do the quest without skill or thinking. Necro 1 quest with 4 pressure plates for example. With 4 players, one stands on each and the doors open. However this quest has been purely soloed (no hirelings). Can every build solo it, nope.

If the quest GUI says balanced party that generally means something along the lines of there will be traps/locks/runes/levers etc that might might have certain requirements and that a balanced party should have no problems overcoming it.

Is it really so much of a bother to keep a hireling around in your backpack for when these (rare) situations arise? You really need do only one thing that takes maybe 2 minutes tops. Run to the entrance and summon the hireling. Bingo. Problem solved. Take the hireling to the lever, have the hireling use the lever, and then dismiss it when you're done if you want to avoid the (inevitable) hireling death penalty. Even if you plan to solo without the hireling, having one just in case is never a bad idea. And it doesn't cost a whole hell of a lot. Heck, I keep a hasting hireling in my backpack just in case I am ever shortmaning without a mage. All the hireling does is stay passive and cast haste before entering a room. It's a heckuva lot cheaper than haste pots and it makes the quest run quicker.

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Originally Posted by samthedagger

Is it really so much of a bother to keep a hireling around in your backpack for when these (rare) situations arise? You really need do only one thing that takes maybe 2 minutes tops. Run to the entrance and summon the hireling. Bingo. Problem solved. Take the hireling to the lever, have the hireling use the lever, and then dismiss it when you're done if you want to avoid the (inevitable) hireling death penalty. Even if you plan to solo without the hireling, having one just in case is never a bad idea. And it doesn't cost a whole hell of a lot. Heck, I keep a hasting hireling in my backpack just in case I am ever shortmaning without a mage. All the hireling does is stay passive and cast haste before entering a room. It's a heckuva lot cheaper than haste pots and it makes the quest run quicker.

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Yeah, that is true. But, unfortunately, it is a lesson that needs to be learned from experience. No need to have players go through it.

It is not the same as making sure you have a blindness protection item or potion or something like that, since such a phenomenon is common to almost all dungeons, and are not required to succeed. Hirelings come off as entirely optional features, not something occasionally required to succeed.

But again, kind of moot. They already do it; just do it more consistently.

As some have already pointed out, some quests where people believe it cannot be soloed due to X requirements have in fact been soloed.

So that's why to me, there shouldn't be any indication that the quest requires x amount of people to complete, simply because some very imaginative people have gotten around these very problems and thus the quest is soloable (without a hireling!).

Someone mentioned Fleshmaker's, I know people who have soloed it with no hireling. Just requires good jumping skills, good coordination and haste. So why should there be a message stating that it needs 2 (or any other number) people as such a message would be incorrect?

Yes I have done quests where I have gone a fair way in only to find I couldn't complete because of a level or somesuch? My reaction? I just laughed thinking that it was a really cool idea and moved on to something else.

Like in real life, you cannot do everything by yourself, so either get a group together or just move on. Please stop trying to dumb down this game and making it easier. I love the challenge and the obstacles put in place before me.

PS: I'm very disappointed with what they are doing with Tear of Dhakaan in update 5, the shrines should stay behind locked doors and there is no need for an extra shrine in that quest. It can be completed without the use of shrines, just requires good resource management, strategy and tactics.

The game is not designed to be played solo. So if you are going to play solo, you should do your homework and prepare for contingencies. I really don't see why this is an issue.

I agree that it is a bit frustrating to have this happen, but DDO is a team game. The default assumption is that you are part of a team, in a 2-6 person party. If the quest absolutely cannot be soloed in any way the quests warn you (though it hasn't always been this way). So I think we have our bases covered.

Actually, back in the good ole' days of AD&D, having hirelings and henchmen around was the default assumption as well. Player Characters couldn't be bothered to do things like carry torches, haul around loot, poke the floor for pressure plates, pull levers back and forth, etc.

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Originally Posted by UltraMonk2

As some have already pointed out, some quests where people believe it cannot be soloed due to X requirements have in fact been soloed.

So that's why to me, there shouldn't be any indication that the quest requires x amount of people to complete, simply because some very imaginative people have gotten around these very problems and thus the quest is soloable (without a hireling!).

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There is some merit to this, but I think the difference is that unlike a puzzle or any other clever strategy, unless you have the tool (i.e the hireling), which most do not think to carry around unless that is their normal solo style, you can succeed without it. Not cool in my opinion.

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Someone mentioned Fleshmaker's, I know people who have soloed it with no hireling. Just requires good jumping skills, good coordination and haste. So why should there be a message stating that it needs 2 (or any other number) people as such a message would be incorrect?

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It is 15 seconds before they all reset. There is absolutely no way it is being soloed without a massive run buff well beyond that of haste. I was hasted, and could easily jump the platforms, and I wasn't even close. I could only get three. So all but the most outrageously fast characters (who would probably be too high level for it anyway) could not solo it.

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Yes I have done quests where I have gone a fair way in only to find I couldn't complete because of a level or somesuch? My reaction? I just laughed thinking that it was a really cool idea and moved on to something else.

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Ok, that's fine. I would not expect you to be the majority here, or even close. I know what I hear on these forums, and what I know from the few friends that play this game too. None of them find it ok.

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Like in real life, you cannot do everything by yourself, so either get a group together or just move on. Please stop trying to dumb down this game and making it easier. I love the challenge and the obstacles put in place before me.

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No problem here either. Just don't let me waste my time with something I cannot finish.

Again, the point is moot. They already do it, just do it consistently.

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Originally Posted by samthedagger

The game is not designed to be played solo. So if you are going to play solo, you should do your homework and prepare for contingencies. I really don't see why this is an issue.

I agree that it is a bit frustrating to have this happen, but DDO is a team game. The default assumption is that you are part of a team, in a 2-6 person party. If the quest absolutely cannot be soloed in any way the quests warn you (though it hasn't always been this way). So I think we have our bases covered.

Actually, back in the good ole' days of AD&D, having hirelings and henchmen around was the default assumption as well. Player Characters couldn't be bothered to do things like carry torches, haul around loot, poke the floor for pressure plates, pull levers back and forth, etc.

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Yes, the game was not intended for solo play. But it has developed otherwise. No game is going to survive on a pure group based system (other than a pvp game). The days of old EQ are long gone. This is now a very solo friendly game, like it or not.

With the game moving in an ever-more-solo-friendly direction, I do think it is important for the devs to address the issue we're discussing in this thread.

Along those lines, I think the party size recommendation issue is key. Because these warnings aren't accurate in most cases, they can't be relied upon by newbies trying to gauge whether they can accomplish the quest. Even if the warnings *were* reliable, though, the accompanying qualifiers greatly degrade the quality of the information. Before players begin a quest, they already know they "might" need to group for a particular quest and that hirelings "may" not suffice. What they wish to learn is whether they do need to group for a particular quest in which hirelings will not suffice. That's the information they're looking for the party size recommendation to provide, and it just isn't there.

Admittedly, there's a continuum here rather than an either-or. A few quests are literally impossible to do without multiple human players in the party, no matter what build you have or what tricks you know. A few quests are literally impossible to do without multiple human players in the party unless the soloer happens to have the right mix of stats, spells, and gear. And a few quests are literally impossible to do without multiple human players in the party unless the player happens to know the right trick.

In these cases, I think it would be appropriate to have different warnings. If it's literally impossible, then say

"Caution: this dungeon cannot be soloed by any build (hirelings will not suffice)"

If it is literally impossible for some builds but can be soloed if you bring the right stats/spells/gear, then say

"Caution: this dungeon cannot be soloed by some builds (hirelings will not suffice)"

And finally, if it is soloable by any build, but only by knowing the right trick, then say:

"Caution: this dungeon requires special knowledge to solo (hirelings will not suffice)"

The last category is more subjective and not necessarily needed, but I personally think it would be helpful for quests like the Pit where an average player is unlikely to deduce the proper sequence of jumps unless he's with an experienced guide.

(This probably goes without saying, but if a quest falls into these categories except that hirelings are OK, then you'd simply remove the "not" from the parenthetical.)

As A_D points out, there really aren't very many quests that can't be soloed. But it's certainly frustrating to be in such a quest and have absolutely no idea that the devs barred you from completing it, especially when a clear and concise warning could have deterred you from entering in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Devonian

The problem is thats a flow breaker. I want to play the game, not stop, hunt down an answer on the forums and play a quest, stop, hunt down info on the forums and play another...

Honestly I'd be perfectly happy if they included a sandbag vendor so that you could wedge switches and pressure plates in place.

Heck make it something you get via trap-making if you must.

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You always have the option of the 'advice' channel in chat. I don't know what server you are on, but on Sarlona you typically get real answers and helpful people. Most often you get answers to questions so you don't have to pop out of the game screen to try to look it up. You also get straight to what it is you are asking about without having to read through and entire dungeon run through.

Yes...there are knuckleheads and comedians, but out of 5 answers to your question, 3 should be consistent and give you and idea of what to do next. Prior to doing a quest you could type, "Doing Delera's 2 solo, anything I need to know?". I think you would get a deluge of people warning you about what is ahead.

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Originally Posted by vmsbass

There is some merit to this, but I think the difference is that unlike a puzzle or any other clever strategy, unless you have the tool (i.e the hireling), which most do not think to carry around unless that is their normal solo style, you can succeed without it. Not cool in my opinion.

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Tough. Just don't do the quest and move on to another. You learnt something from it even if you are unable to solo it.

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Originally Posted by vmsbass

It is 15 seconds before they all reset. There is absolutely no way it is being soloed without a massive run buff well beyond that of haste. I was hasted, and could easily jump the platforms, and I wasn't even close. I could only get three. So all but the most outrageously fast characters (who would probably be too high level for it anyway) could not solo it.

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Yet it can still be soloed, so a statement on quest entry saying that you need at least 2 people would be inaccurate.

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Originally Posted by vmsbass

Ok, that's fine. I would not expect you to be the majority here, or even close. I know what I hear on these forums, and what I know from the few friends that play this game too. None of them find it ok.

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Tough, if you and your friends don't like it, create your very own MSORPG (Massively Solo Online Role Playing Game) . DDO like any other MMO is designed to be group based. I've left other MMO's because they started to dumb it down and make it easier for people even though the people playing before you came along were just fine with it.

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Originally Posted by vmsbass

No problem here either. Just don't let me waste my time with something I cannot finish.

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You can't finish life, so why are you wasting your time with it? And that's an honest question.

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Originally Posted by vmsbass

Again, the point is moot. They already do it, just do it consistently.

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Yes it is very unfortunate they started doing it in the first place.

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Originally Posted by UltraMonk2

Yes it is very unfortunate they started doing it in the first place.

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Tough

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Originally Posted by UltraMonk2

You can't finish life, so why are you wasting your time with it? And that's an honest question.

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Actually, everyone eventually finishes it. ;)

With the clever use of Hirelings, I cannot think of any quest that cannot be completed with just a single player (with hirelings). I think every Raid has also been completed solo as well (not sure about Abbott thou, that would would be a real reach). So pretty much the entire game can be attempted as a single player experience. Some of those quests and raids will be horrible expensive in resources, but that is not the question.

The question really boils down to the following then. Where do you draw the line?

They have to date draw the line at a simple metric. If you have 4 plates to be done at once, it "requires 4" for the quest and the vast majority of notes reflect that. That a knowledgable or skilled player can do it alone does not change that. I beleive most have readily admitted that there are perhaps a couple of quests where the language has not been updated corrected and those are errors or bugs, not a flaw in the system.

Keep in mind that they also rate the challenge of the various quests, as being easier than most of that level, average for that level and harder than most for that level. Or it is a challenging quest for that level.

When you actually tabulate some numbers however you get some interesting results in the land of Lake Woebegone. If you look at some of the quest level you find that they are all average or harder than average, but none are easier? I did a table some time back and I am looking for it.

Found it (just gonna cut and paste here)

Noticed another change to the Quest Journal fields while looking around tonight.

In the current setup there is a field for "recommended group" and they tend to read along the lines of 1 or more players, or 2 or more or 3 or more (Kobald Assault for example). Well that is changing. The Field is still there BUT, the info is changing.

There appear to be a number of types of entry.
This Adventure is easier than most of this level,
This Adventure is of average difficulty,
This Adventure is Challenging, balanced party is recommended
Party Based Challenge! This quest requires X or more players. (Hirelings may not suffice)
Solo Only,
Raid - 12 players suggested.

So it appears that they are going to expand the info even more than before.

However, there are some interesting things to note.

The PIT "Requires 3 or more players" (3? 2 perhaps, but 3?)
When you look over the quests you can see some amusing things.

Land of Lake Woebegone here we come.

ALL 8 first level quests are somehow Easier than most of that level!

In the 18 - 2nd level quests, 8 are easier than most, 7 are average, 2 are Solo only and Haverdasher has an identity crisis. The description still says solo only..

In the 20 - 3rd level quests, 1 is Easier than most (Redfang ?), 16 are Average, 2 are Solo and 1 is Challenging (Kobald Assault).

It looks like in any quest with pressure plates it says that is the number "required". So Xoriat says 4, as does the Burning Heart Quest. For some reason Against the Demon Queen says you need 4 or more? But I can think of no systemic reason in that quest where you need that.

Taming the Flames is Average? While the Iron Mines quests are considered Challenging? really?? What is in your cereal bowl each morning?

The pendulum swings to the other end... While Gianthold Tor and Fleshmaker mentions no number just calls them challenging. It appears that things like switches are not on the decision tree for the text entry in the field while pressure plates are.

Something is kinda weird, is that once you get to 4th level and higher quests, there are NONE of them listed as being easier than most of that level. They are all Average or Challenging or more.

Something else to chew on....

I can only think of two instances off the top of my head that need more than one hireling....

Tomb of the Burning Heart
The Xorian Cipher

and in some cases you can actually do these with only one or in the case of Burning Heart you can do it with none......you would need a really high trip DC or FtS, Hold Monster, Greater Command...something to that effect for XC and Halt Undead for Burning Heart.

That being said, if you put you need help getting done with a dungeon in an LFM you will probably get a few people to offer assistance.....if it's a matter of pride and u wanna do it completely solo all I can say is...oh well.

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Originally Posted by yfernbottom

I think it would be keen if instances that can't be soloed without a hireling or party member were flagged more consistantly than they are currently. I have stumbled across several that I got stuck in because i couldn't be in two places at once, but did not state they required a party. "Requires at least one part member or a hireling" in the description would be helpull. Spending an hour clearing out a hardass instance just to get stuck because it's set to need an extra party member pretty much utterly sucks.

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I always carry a cleric hireling with me in any dungeon I am unfamiliar with and trying to solo, ok so sometimes I forget to summon them at the beginning and have to run all the way back to the beginning to do so, thats always fun :o,

ddo wiki often lists weather a hireling is required in the dungeon, that has saved me a lot of pain

I guess it would be nice if the quest text did state something like "need at least x number of players for lever pulls"

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Originally Posted by vmsbass

Tough

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The game isn't anymore.

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Originally Posted by Seamonkeysix

Actually, everyone eventually finishes it. ;)

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In most situations it isn't by choice. :-)

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Originally Posted by UltraMonk2

In most situations it isn't by choice. :-)

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True that.

There is a difference between challenge and frustration
Frustration occurs when you put effort into something you can never accomplish

So if there are plates or something that would prevent soloing, then some indication should exist

That said, I think the warnings are too technical and do give away some of the challenge

So, when you get to the door and your level is too low, or your Int is too low, or you don't have a hireling, or 3 more people or the purple panda of doom, or whatever, simply state on the door:

Your doom awaits, enter not through this portal.

And err on the side of caution, even throw it on some very simple quests.

This way if you want to solo, you can just skip all doors so marked, ask on the advice channel why it says that, look it up, or even give it a shot. At least you were warned.

Then you won't be frustrated, but you can be challenged