Sorc with a touch of Bard?

I rolled my first character like a noob and now at lvl9, I love it to death but have noticed some irregularities >.>

So anyways, with this sorc if I was to take one lvl of bard, would the effect of 'no arcane spell penalty on light armor' & use of divine wands pass over to? If so, does the 'no penalty light armor etc' affect just the lvl1 bards spells or both sorc and bard spells I would have?

I asking because since my noob character is little fubared and so i figured if he may suck a little, he might as well be fun or slightly useful in another way. If things work out, I plan only to take one lvl of Bard.

You say your char is fubar already, so stop wasting time on it.

Make a new better character :cool:

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Originally Posted by MrCasualEOCF

I rolled my first character like a noob and now at lvl9, I love it to death but have noticed some irregularities >.> then don't mess with it :p

So anyways, with this sorc if I was to take one lvl of bard, would the effect of 'no arcane spell penalty on light armor' Only on bard spells, not on yoru sorc spells

& use of divine wands pass over to? Yes, but as a sorc you should be maximizing your UMD and can thus use them anyway

If so, does the 'no penalty light armor etc' affect just the lvl1 bards spells or both sorc and bard spells I would have? bard spells only

I asking because since my noob character is little fubared and so i figured if he may suck a little, he might as well be fun or slightly useful in another way. If things work out, I plan only to take one lvl of Bard.don't do it, you will lose more than you gain.

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Why do you think your build is fubared? If you truly feel that way, park it now and start again. But let us know what you think is wrong, it might be a correctable problem, particularily when LR comes out eventually.

okay so fubar'ed may be a little exaggerated but he wont be the full sorc he could be in EndGame but I'm totally okay with that, I'm not that kind of player really.
Alright
Lvl8 actually, I am about 3k of xp from lvl9 >.>
Stats are 8 14 14 8 8 20 (without enhance, items etc.). With -> 8 14 15 10 8 24
Combat Casting
Mental Toughness
Improved '' ''
I first rolled him with more dex than needed which I didnt know. I like playing the character & will eventually reroll another sorc when I got 32pt unlocked. I figured okay i have a few extra Dex in the long run but wasn't needed. I heard about the bard skills and thought maybe I could get a little more oomph from the 'no arcane penalty lightarmor' but apparently not :P

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Originally Posted by MrCasualEOCF

Lvl8 actually, I am about 3k of xp from lvl9 >.>
Stats are 8 14 14 8 8 20 (without enhance, items etc.). With -> 8 14 15 10 8 24
Combat Casting
Mental Toughness
Improved '' ''

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20 chr, 14 con...that's a solid foundation for a sorc. I agree with you that lowering the dex and raising either str or int might have been more helpful, but you are just fine.

Dump combat casting, you don't need it. Maximize might be a good choice.

As you get higher in level and end up with more SP than you need, you will eventually want to dump MT & IMT as well, but they might work well for you now.

For future feats consider, toughness, extend, empower, highten.

Alright Thank you :D I have maximize but forgot about it sorry

If i take off MT and IMT, will the bonuses it gave me go away or are they permanent? Thats one detail I couldnt really find without actually testing it

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Originally Posted by MrCasualEOCF

Alright Thank you :D I have maximize but forgot about it sorry

If i take off MT and IMT, will the bonuses it gave me go away or are they permanent? Thats one detail I couldnt really find without actually testing it

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The sps go away when you remove the feat.

Since you already have maximize I'd go with either extend or toughness to replace combat casting.

Gotcha :D thanks guy, just signed up for the forums and got solid responses. Not my first board :P

EOCF?

Extreme Overclocking Forums?

Spent many years blowing up hardware because of that site! Good Times....

You might want to consider Force of Personality if you feel you're not making many will saves.

@Halls,
Fort 5
Refl 5
Will 6 as of lvl8, so I dont know, I may take Force of Personality

@Impacqt
How did you guess?!? :P
But, yes Extreme Overclocking forum :D Got into the hobby just under two years ago and have been hooked ever since.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrCasualEOCF

okay so fubar'ed may be a little exaggerated but he wont be the full sorc he could be in EndGame but I'm totally okay with that, I'm not that kind of player really.
Alright
Lvl8 actually, I am about 3k of xp from lvl9 >.>
Stats are 8 14 14 8 8 20 (without enhance, items etc.). With -> 8 14 15 10 8 24
Combat Casting
Mental Toughness
Improved '' ''
I first rolled him with more dex than needed which I didnt know. I like playing the character & will eventually reroll another sorc when I got 32pt unlocked. I figured okay i have a few extra Dex in the long run but wasn't needed. I heard about the bard skills and thought maybe I could get a little more oomph from the 'no arcane penalty lightarmor' but apparently not :P

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Lorien is right. Nothing wrong with this character. Will be perfectly fine with the right feats and enhancements. Stay pure.

I would take feats in this order:
1: Thoughness
3: Extend
6: Maximize
9: Empower
12: Heighten
15: Spell penetration
18: Greater spell penetration.

You can swap out Extend for a spell focus feat if you dont run around and haste your groups all the time :)

Nice try people...

But from someone who knows...

Light armour spell fail does NOT happen with the sorc spells (so your borc = Bard/Sorc can wear light armour and STILL cast from both pools WITHOUT spell fail)

at the moment I don't know if this is per spell tier...ie when casting sorc lvl 1 spells I get no spell fail...but with only one lvl of bard...my lvl 2 sorc spells might suffer spell fail (Need to Test)

At Current "Bewitcher" is Bard 1/ Sorc 4 (so just got sorc lvl 2 spells)

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Originally Posted by Damionic

Nice try people...

But from someone who knows...

Light armour spell fail does NOT happen with the sorc spells (so your borc = Bard/Sorc can wear light armour and STILL cast from both pools WITHOUT spell fail)

at the moment I don't know if this is per spell tier...ie when casting sorc lvl 1 spells I get no spell fail...but with only one lvl of bard...my lvl 2 sorc spells might suffer spell fail (Need to Test)

At Current "Bewitcher" is Bard 1/ Sorc 4 (so just got sorc lvl 2 spells)

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It does happen.

Spells in Bards 'spell book' do not fail (ASF) if wearing light armor.

Spells in Sorc/Wiz 'spell book' can fail. There are some arcane spells that don't have ASF check at all. "Somatic" is the key. Those never fail because of armor. Displacement is a good example.

Elf/Drow enhancements and some items can lower or even remove ASF check.

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Originally Posted by Damionic

Nice try people...

But from someone who knows...

At Current "Bewitcher" is Bard 1/ Sorc 4 (so just got sorc lvl 2 spells)

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A bold statement from someone who only has a lvl 5 character to base his experience on :rolleyes:

I have a lvl 19 wizard / bard 1.....

a sorc must wear light armor, or armor with no spell failure check, look at the spell fail % which is listed on the armors stat, those most definitely apply, even if you are a bard

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Originally Posted by Judo

a sorc must wear light armor, or armor with no spell failure check, look at the spell fail % which is listed on the armors stat, those most definitely apply, even if you are a bard

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Bards can wear light armor/shields without ASF check. Sorcs and Wizzys are subject to ASF if wearing anything but cloth unless they have enhancements or items to reduce said penalty. Which spells are subject to which ASF depends on what spell book they come from.

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Originally Posted by MissErres

Bards can wear light armor/shields without ASF check.

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Not shields. I think regular light shields have 5%? Mithral Light, yes. Or Bucklers.

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Sorcs and Wizzys are subject to ASF if wearing anything but cloth unless they have enhancements or items to reduce said penalty. Which spells are subject to which ASF depends on what spell book they come from.

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AND, in the case of the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, whether there is a Somatic Component (i.e. movement.) There are a few spells that even a regular Sor/Wiz can cast without ASF.

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Originally Posted by MrCasualEOCF

@Halls,
Fort 5
Refl 5
Will 6 as of lvl8, so I dont know, I may take Force of Personality

@Impacqt
How did you guess?!? :P
But, yes Extreme Overclocking forum :D Got into the hobby just under two years ago and have been hooked ever since.

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Because I wrote the perverbial Book on Overclocking AMD's and tweaking Memory setting for EOCF back in the day. I'm sure many of my previously stickied threads can still be found.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Impaqt

Because I wrote the perverbial Book on Overclocking AMD's and tweaking Memory setting for EOCF back in the day. I'm sure many of my previously stickied threads can still be found.

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My 'how did you guess' was actualy sarcasm but its okay :P
Soon after you said you were part of EOCF, I used the search function for you name and low and behold, I found your tut' and some posts from like '04-'05 Lol

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so final facts are:
Bards dont make a ASC unless they have a shield cuz that's not counted under light armor duh.
A sorc/wiz with a lvl of bard cannot use their sorc/wiz spells with light armor without doing a ASC.
Yes they are some spells that can be cast without an ASC.
Elf/Drow enhancements and some items can lower or even remove ASF check.
I am awesome as a forum newb.


My thread kinda went freeforall while i was away >.>

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Originally Posted by MrCasualEOCF

My thread kinda went freeforall while i was away >.>

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All threads do :D

I repeat...

Having a bard lvl with a sorc class (not tested any other mix) DOES allow you to cast spells in light armour..

If you want to test it...follow my experiment.

1. Get a toon to at least lvl 5 (b1s4) (and do not pick any armour casting enhancements)

2. Pick a sorcerer spell (i.e from the sorcerer 2nd level spell tree) with a somatic component ( I chose glitterdust)

3. Put on some LIGHT armour with no shield (I used leather armour..just plain old leather armour from the harbor armour shop)

4.Go to any quest and cast glitter dust

5.Notice the complete lack of roll dice and the fact that your can cast the spell EVERY time!

....I even double checked this with my lvl 14 wizard (no bard lvls just a plain wizard)

and I got the dice roll and the spell fail.

Now..I dont know if its only spells that are on the bard spell lists or not...but it still works!!

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Originally Posted by Damionic

I repeat...

Having a bard lvl with a sorc class (not tested any other mix) DOES allow you to cast spells in light armour..

If you want to test it...follow my experiment.

1. Get a toon to at least lvl 5 (b1s4) (and do not pick any armour casting enhancements)

2. Pick a sorcerer spell (i.e from the sorcerer 2nd level spell tree) with a somatic component ( I chose glitterdust)

3. Put on some LIGHT armour with no shield (I used leather armour..just plain old leather armour from the harbor armour shop)

4.Go to any quest and cast glitter dust

5.Notice the complete lack of roll dice and the fact that your can cast the spell EVERY time!

....I even double checked this with my lvl 14 wizard (no bard lvls just a plain wizard)

and I got the dice roll and the spell fail.

Now..I dont know if its only spells that are on the bard spell lists or not...but it still works!!

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That's been covered. But what are you going to do, switch armor in and out depending on which spell you want to cast?? I suppose you could, but sounds like a big PITA to me, especially in the middle of a fight. And just incase you missed it...NOT ALL SORC/WIZ SPELLS ARE SOMATIC! So wearing light armor on a sorc/wiz without reducing the ASF to 0% is something people need to be aware of. Can be done, is done, but do it with the knowledge that you may fail a critical spell at a crutial time. Besides, with AC bracers you don't need light armor, your robes/outfits will be just fine. ;)

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Originally Posted by MissErres

That's been covered. But what are you going to do, switch armor in and out depending on which spell you want to cast?? I suppose you could, but sounds like a big PITA to me, especially in the middle of a fight. And just incase you missed it...NOT ALL SORC/WIZ SPELLS ARE SOMATIC! So wearing light armor on a sorc/wiz without reducing the ASF to 0% is something people need to be aware of. Can be done, is done, but do it with the knowledge that you may fail a critical spell at a crutial time. Besides, with AC bracers you don't need light armor, your robes/outfits will be just fine. ;)

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You diddent need to tell me that not all arcane spells have a somatic conponent (I might have figoured that out myself from playing since beta on Europe then USA)

The reason why I chose glitterdust is because only somatic spells suffer spell fail (it was my intent to prove this diddent suffer ASF)

also...why bother with this as you could get a bracer?...because it opens up other armours that can be worn for their enchantments on top of robes (seen a leather armour of magi? I know I have)

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Originally Posted by Damionic

You diddent need to tell me that not all arcane spells have a somatic conponent (I might have figoured that out myself from playing since beta on Europe then USA)

The reason why I chose glitterdust is because only somatic spells suffer spell fail (it was my intent to prove this diddent suffer ASF) There was no need to prove it, it was already discussed.

also...why bother with this as you could get a bracer?...because it opens up other armours that can be worn for their enchantments on top of robes (seen a leather armour of magi? I know I have) Your AC on a caster is going to be s*** anyway. Why waste trying to bump it one or two points, which still will be s***, only to fail a dice roll when you really need to kill something? IMO, the only way light armor works on a caster is if enhancements/items are used to drop the ASF to 0%, otherwise, completly not worth it.

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Magi? lol... I can get that on robes and outfits just fine, not that I want something like magi... Might be good for a couple levels. :rolleyes: Deathblock outfit of heavy fort, blue scale robes, not to mention a ton of other things that are better than MAGI! Go get ya a Wizardry item and throw that leather armor of the magi out!

*blink*

Um. Making a Bard1/Wiz3, putting on the starter chainshirt (ASF20%)... none of my spells seem to be rolling against the ASF...

Glitterdust, Detect Secret Doors, Burning Hands, Nightshield, Ray of Enfeeblement...

Interesting.

I do wish people will learn to read...

Sigh... Once more!!

Casting sorcerer spells with a splash of bard and with light armour DOES NOT ROLL A SPELL FAIL CHECK!!! (the game thinks your pure bard)

Really....I don't know why I bother :/

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Originally Posted by Damionic

Having a bard lvl with a sorc class (not tested any other mix) DOES allow you to cast spells in light armour..

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If it works its an exploit/bug, expect it to be changed at some point.

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Originally Posted by Lorien_the_First_One

If it works its an exploit/bug, expect it to be changed at some point.

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Yeah. If this is currently possible, its not how it should work. If it works, its a bug.


Expect it to be fixed, and do not build a character around using it. Do not splash Bard on your Wiz/Sorc just to have a minor armor advantage.

Remember all those "Yay, Evasion is possible in Heavy Armor" builds who based their build concept on a bug. And how they complained and then grudgingly rerolled when it got fixed. Dont fall into the same trap.

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Originally Posted by Noctus

Yeah. If this is currently possible, its not how it should work. If it works, its a bug.


Expect it to be fixed, and do not build a character around using it. Do not splash Bard on your Wiz/Sorc just to have a minor armor advantage.

Remember all those "Yay, Evasion is possible in Heavy Armor" builds who based their build concept on a bug. And how they complained and then grudgingly rerolled when it got fixed. Dont fall into the same trap.

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Thats good advice..

But this armour "Bug" is not the reason I went Borc (Bard/Sorc)
[personally I don't think its a bug..because thats like saying that fighter/wizard mix cant use martial weapons]

It was because :

1.More Sp:
Bards use Charisma for their spell pool as do Sorcerers...so the mix will give double benifit from high charisma.

2.First Songs:
Bewitcher is a CC/Wand Spec so having the first song and Fascinate adds to the toon.
(before you start..I know you lose one Spell DC lvl for the mix..but thats easy to fix)

3.Cure Light Wounds:
As a Human Borc (for skill enhancements) self healing is good...and the higher sp pool makes that spell go very far.

4.Better Spell selection/wand usage:
Sorcerers have more spells then a bard and as bards get access to healing spells..any wands you get have a better rate to land (plus high UMD skills) [I know sorcs do not get UMD as a class skill but my lvl 14 int allows me to up it every level]

5. Good Haggle:
With this mix your not losing that much Haggle from a pure bard mix

6. Light Armour usage with sorc spells:
As this is not yet fixed..nor should it be (If bards get trained to cast arcane spells in light armour and my toon has that bard training then She shouldent have that training removed)

Thats why I went Borc.

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Originally Posted by MrCasualEOCF

okay so fubar'ed may be a little exaggerated but he wont be the full sorc he could be in EndGame but I'm totally okay with that, I'm not that kind of player really.
Alright
Lvl8 actually, I am about 3k of xp from lvl9 >.>
Stats are 8 14 14 8 8 20 (without enhance, items etc.). With -> 8 14 15 10 8 24
Combat Casting
Mental Toughness
Improved '' ''
I first rolled him with more dex than needed which I didnt know. I like playing the character & will eventually reroll another sorc when I got 32pt unlocked. I figured okay i have a few extra Dex in the long run but wasn't needed. I heard about the bard skills and thought maybe I could get a little more oomph from the 'no arcane penalty lightarmor' but apparently not :P

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If you started with CHA at 20, you are a drow, and thus are already a 32-pt build. I just maxxed my first toon as a drow sorc, and had a ball. By lvl 20 your CHA will be 30 with no items (though using a +2 CHA tome, which by then will come naturally. I got two as end-rewards for example). I put in 2 pts in INT for the extra skill pt. Being my 1st real toon, this came in very handy, and I mostly split : Concentration, UMD (these two are absolutely essential), Balance/Haggle. I forewent on either Diplomacy or Intimidate, a decision I do not regret. Gold will be an issue as a first toon (don't I know it), so Haggle is very practical, and I suggest a good haggle item to swap when making purchases or sales. A tip: pure haggle items in the AH tend to be ridiculously overpriced, but you can often find the same for MUCH less if it is combined with something else. Ex: Wise ring of haggling instead of a ring of haggling.

For the longest time, my build focused as an enchanter, which was a lot of fun, and fire/cold, and a good assortment of buffs.

For the lower and mid-levels, enchanting is a super solution to mobs and bosses. You can't charm the bosses, but you can charm their hirelings that beat the c*** out of them. Archers spread out on the ledge? Charm one and watch them focus on their traitorous brethren. Big mob up ahead? I love charming the spellcasters which wreaks havoc in their group.

Is he absolute? Hardly, but with very high spell pen (all feats and enhacnements) and CHA, his FOD and disco ball is very efficient. Don't forget you can re-spec the enhancements at any time. Costs about 30k GP each time, which as you level up will seem less and less. Also, do not forget to separate several toolbars for ready use. As a noob, this is something one may not do from lack of experience. That said, unless you invested your stats into Strength (get some STR gloves to avoid backpack issues) or something irreversible, I see no reason you would be fubared. Feats, enhancements, spells, can all be changed. Gold will come readily later. Those expensive 32k items you see now, will become 162K items later on.

HP will always be your bane. As a drow sorc, learn this, and learn to deal with it. Absolutely no one will be able to deal the damage you can deal, but a sneeze and a cough by a bad guy can easily take you out. It is a tradeoff.

One other thing: one level of sorc lost means losing a lvl 9 sorc spell, and roughly 150 SP. That is HUGE.

Oh yes, and above all: have fun!

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Originally Posted by Damionic

I do wish people will learn to read...

Sigh... Once more!!

Casting sorcerer spells with a splash of bard and with light armour DOES NOT ROLL A SPELL FAIL CHECK!!! (the game thinks your pure bard)

Really....I don't know why I bother :/

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I splashed bard on a sorc a couple years ago, and ASF definitely applied on my sorc spells; otherwise, I would most definitely have such a character today. If it works now, it will work for about as long as when a 2-rogue-splash pally could use evasion in full plate.

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Originally Posted by Shoal

I splashed bard on a sorc a couple years ago, and ASF definitely applied on my sorc spells; otherwise, I would most definitely have such a character today. If it works now, it will work for about as long as when a 2-rogue-splash pally could use evasion in full plate.

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Didn't that work for years, evasion in full-plate? :P

surprised at all the people thinking that splashing a bard will not remove arcane spell failure on a sorc.

i spent the past week leveling my build currently 9 sorc/1 bard and the only time i get a spell failure roll is when i use my shield. when not using my shield there is zero ASF with my mithril chain shirt.

imo, splashing a bard level on a sorc is great. minor melee abilities (sometime you just want to swing at things!), proficiencies, full UMD ranks, cure wands and 1st level cure spell...i think even some cross class bonus SP. all this creates a very effective solo build, which was my primary intent for this guy.

Bug reported...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Damionic

I do wish people will learn to read...

Sigh... Once more!!

Casting sorcerer spells with a splash of bard and with light armour DOES NOT ROLL A SPELL FAIL CHECK!!! (the game thinks your pure bard)

Really....I don't know why I bother :/

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Thank you. I keep hearing people say that bard/sorc can't cast sorc spells in light armor w/o ASF. However, when I asked if they've tested it all I hear are crickets. I think it's important to distinguish between what "should" be, based on DDO rules or (even more tenuously) PnP rules and what "is". It may be a bug and it may be unwise to count on it lasting but that's not the same as "it doesn't work".

Thanks for testing this. One question though, have you only tried with Glitterdust and is Glitterdust on both spell lists (I can't check from the computer I'm currently on or I'd look it up myself)? if so then the "bug" might be limited to only affecting overlapping spells.

*Never mind, Belz answered my question. I expect by 10th level he had to cast something other than Glitterdust.*

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Originally Posted by Damionic

personally I don't think its a bug..because thats like saying that fighter/wizard mix cant use martial weapons.

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That's exactly what those who gained heavy armor from multiclassing said when evasion still worked. It's clearly and obviously a bug.

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Originally Posted by Uskathoth

Thank you. I keep hearing people say that bard/sorc can't cast sorc spells in light armor w/o ASF. However, when I asked if they've tested it all I hear are crickets. I think it's important to distinguish between what "should" be, based on DDO rules or (even more tenuously) PnP rules and what "is". It may be a bug and it may be unwise to count on it lasting but that's not the same as "it doesn't work".

Thanks for testing this. One question though, have you only tried with Glitterdust and is Glitterdust on both spell lists (I can't check from the computer I'm currently on or I'd look it up myself)? if so then the "bug" might be limited to only affecting overlapping spells.

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I know for an absolute fact that it used to fail correctly, tested in 2007 or so. It is quite possible it has gotten screwed up since. By the sound of Belz' statement, it is not just spells shared between the two classes - there is a rule ambiguity there - but all spells. I would still like to see some screenies of a combat log complete with tooltips and equipment before I consider Belz any more reliable than the people arguing against.

And abso-freaking-lutely do not build your character to rely on it continuing to work. It is not supposed to, and it has been reported.

I know for an absolute fact that it used to fail correctly, tested in 2007 or so.

Interesting. I can assure you, no dice role is made currenty for ASF while I am wearing a +4 MCS on a human Sorc 9/Bard 1. With a +5 Mithral Heavy Shield a dice role for ASF does happen.

For those who may not know this is not a new build idea. One of the MMO sites (maybe Ten Ton Hammer?) used to do concept builds and called the Sorc x/ Bard 1 the Siren build. Two friends in a guild rolled them up and their characters always wore robes. It was always fun running with them on those builds and is why I rolled one up now.

Regardless, whatever this turns out to be the loss of light armor will/does not break the build for me and my play style. It was fun while soloing and leveling the build to have some AC, but honestly it becomes less relevant at higher levels. Robes and displacement + stoneskin can easily be more effective than a 40ish AC.

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Originally Posted by Lorien_the_First_One

That's exactly what those who gained heavy armor from multiclassing said when evasion still worked. It's clearly and obviously a bug.

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I think you misunderstood my point.

Taking a level of fighter will give you training in martial weapons and all armour types as well.

But what differs from the bard is the fact that bards are trained to cast spells using light armours..not just to wear them.

so..if your character took a lvl of bard then you would be taught to cast arcane spells with light armour thus removing the ASF incured by non trained wizards and sorcs that do not gain the methods taught to bards.

However..even with training in this method..a concentration check should be made (as we cant be on the ball all the time)

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Originally Posted by Damionic

But what differs from the bard is the fact that bards are trained to cast spells using light armours..not just to wear them.

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No. Bard spells have simpler somatic components which allows them to be cast in light armour.

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Originally Posted by whysper

No. Bard spells have simpler somatic components which allows them to be cast in light armour.

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same difference...

Ok with the bard training of casting spells with a simpler somatic component to them a bard/sorc mixed toon will still have the bard training to cast the same spells but simpler..thus allowing it to cast using light armour.

:D

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Originally Posted by Damionic

same difference...

Ok with the bard training of casting spells with a simpler somatic component to them a bard/sorc mixed toon will still have the bard training to cast the same spells but simpler..thus allowing it to cast using light armour.

:D

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Nope. The Bard only knows how to cast certain bard spells. The argument that a Bard could cast any spell off the Bard spell list without ASF regardless of the source of the spell slot is explicitly contradicted by the rules (which makes sense since the Bard does not know that spell.) You could tenuously argue that selecting a spell the Bard already knows off a different lists would negate ASF, but obviously the counterargument is that the different invocations do not access the same power source, or do so in an incompatible manner.

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Originally Posted by whysper

Nope. The Bard only knows how to cast certain bard spells. The argument that a Bard could cast any spell off the Bard spell list without ASF regardless of the source of the spell slot is explicitly contradicted by the rules (which makes sense since the Bard does not know that spell.) You could tenuously argue that selecting a spell the Bard already knows off a different lists would negate ASF, but obviously the counterargument is that the different invocations do not access the same power source, or do so in an incompatible manner.

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So what it boils down to is..are the bard spells Arcane or not...

If they are arcane then with the spells from the bard spell lists..SHOULD crossover to the other arcane class lists..because be it of pure talent (sorcerer) or a researched spell (wizard) the method of casting the spell would be the bards method because is carries the advantage of the simpler somatic componant.

Either way the above point is mute..because the bards method of gaining the spells is the same as the sorcerer..because of the spell swapping laws.

In short.. a Borc (bard/sorc mix) should NOT suffer ASF with spells from the bard lists (even if cast on the sorc side)

but a Bwiz (bard/wizard mix) Should suffer ASF due to two tottaly different methods of casting the spell..although learning to cast the spell from the bards methods should lessen the ASF or just have a consentration check.

:D

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Originally Posted by Damionic

So what it boils down to is..are the bard spells Arcane or not...

If they are arcane then with the spells from the bard spell lists..SHOULD crossover to the other arcane class lists..because be it of pure talent (sorcerer) or a researched spell (wizard) the method of casting the spell would be the bards method because is carries the advantage of the simpler somatic componant.

Either way the above point is mute..because the bards method of gaining the spells is the same as the sorcerer..because of the spell swapping laws.

In short.. a Borc (bard/sorc mix) should NOT suffer ASF with spells from the bard lists (even if cast on the sorc side)

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No.

A couple of end game points here.

1. You will need at least a 55 ac (and thats assuming you have several ouside buffs to get you up from there). Now if you are the type who likes to do things of much lower level for fun...well ac may work.

2. A lvl of bard is ONLY usefull to unlock umd as a call skill. A 39 umd can be reached by a high cha sorc with only a few pieces of gear.

If I were to multiclass with bard..I would change it at endgame with a plus 1 reincarnation. I realize it will help durin the leveling process(which is like 5 % of that toons life...at most)

Answer:make a pure WF sorc or wiz:) Or make what ya want and have fun.....

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Originally Posted by whysper

No.

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Please don't just put No as your answer...if you have a valid counter-argument..then lets have it.

otherwise...I win

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Originally Posted by Damionic

Please don't just put No as your answer...if you have a valid counter-argument..then lets have it.

otherwise...I win

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I have refuted your "points" above. The last one was a complete non-sequitur not worthy of dissecting further.

D&D Bards can only cast spells they know off the Bard spell list without ASF chance. This is explicitly stated in the rules, and as I explained, arguments for full or limited overlap are not logically consistent within the game world.

YHL. HAND.

I believe a lvl 1 bard/19 src/wiz can cast any lvl 1 spells without armour/ASF check (like Glitterdust from the above example), but lvl 2 spells raise the check. 4 bard lvls make all level 2 spells without armour/ASF and so on.

Did not verify this however.

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Originally Posted by whysper

I have refuted your "points" above. The last one was a complete non-sequitur not worthy of dissecting further.

D&D Bards can only cast spells they know off the Bard spell list without ASF chance. This is explicitly stated in the rules, and as I explained, arguments for full or limited overlap are not logically consistent within the game world.

YHL. HAND.

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Whether or not stated in the D&D Rules, Logic would suggest that someone gaining two or more classes would share the advantages from BOTH classes. (saying its not allowed because the game creator diddent think of it is just cheap!)

Unless it states clearly in "teh rulz" that you cannot use the simpler somatic componant method on a multiclassed bard/sorc ..then it IS allowed in the game.

Game.Set.Match

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Originally Posted by Damionic

Whether or not stated in the D&D Rules, Logic would suggest that someone gaining two or more classes would share the advantages from BOTH classes. (saying its not allowed because the game creator diddent think of it is just cheap!)

Unless it states clearly in "teh rulz" that you cannot use the simpler somatic componant method on a multiclassed bard/sorc ..then it IS allowed in the game.

Game.Set.Match

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Bard spells are not sorc/wizard spells. They may function the same, but they are not. That is why their spells MUST have verbal components, and can't be cast with the Silent Spell feat. You can look up the rules on both the bard spell descriptions and the Silent spell feat to confirm this. Since the rule states that bard spells are free from ASF, not arcane spells cast by a bard, I'm not sure why you would think this could be circumvented in some way.

As for the "clearly stated in the rules", guess this line from the SRD might be clear enough:

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A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

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http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

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Originally Posted by Freeman

Bard spells are not sorc/wizard spells. They may function the same, but they are not. That is why their spells MUST have verbal components, and can't be cast with the Silent Spell feat. You can look up the rules on both the bard spell descriptions and the Silent spell feat to confirm this. Since the rule states that bard spells are free from ASF, not arcane spells cast by a bard, I'm not sure why you would think this could be circumvented in some way.

As for the "clearly stated in the rules", guess this line from the SRD might be clear enough:



http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm

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Ive been reading the "rules" as well..from the same site.

Multiclass
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/multiclass.htm

A character may add new classes as he or she progresses in level, thus becoming a multiclass character. The class abilities from a character’s different classes combine to determine a multiclass character’s overall abilities. Multiclassing improves a character’s versatility at the expense of focus.

The page even has additional rules for class mixes under Class Features and if you care to look you will see NO rules made for a Bard/Sorc mix using the bards method of casting spells to stop ASF in light armour.

Also in

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm

By contrast, bards not only know how to wear light armor effectively, but they can also ignore the arcane spell failure chance for such armor. A bard wearing armor heavier than light or using any type of shield incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance, even if he becomes proficient with that armor.

So its something that can be learned..IE a talent (remember sorcs gain there spells as talents)

and if you take..Armor restricts the complicated gestures that a wizards or sorcerer must make while casting any spell that has a somatic component (most do). The armor and shield descriptions list the arcane spell failure chance for different armors and shields.

That means that anything that limits the complicated gestures of the spells will cause ASF..

So Turbine you have two choices...

1. Allow this oversite between bards and sorcerers to remain as is (allowing this mix to cast in light armour)

or

2. Add ASF to anyone using weapons,rings,scrolls to cast Arcane spells and see how that takes...

All the other bickering aside, a bard splash on a sorc is a stupid idea at this point in the game (ie: 20 cap). There is no real payoff.

Luckily, Lesser Reincarnates will allow everyone to fix that particular mistake pretty easily.

As for the ASF, pretty sure it was tested before - a fair amount of people splashed a bard level on their sorcs when the cap was lower. If spells aren't getting an ASF check anymore, that's a new addition.

Personally, I wouldn't trust Damionic's testing, as he doesn't sound especially knowledgable on the game. I'm sure there are plenty of vets with shelved 19sorc/1bard's that could try it out.

On that note, with the addition of the new reincarnates, I guess levelling will change slightly. People will start splashing self-healing/feat/AC classes early game, then swap out later for efficiancy. Should be interesting to see what happens.

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Originally Posted by DropList

A couple of end game points here.
...I realize it will help durin the leveling process(which is like 5 % of that toons life...at most)

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I wonder if this will be true in the future as F2P changes the player base. There may be more players that level up to 20 then semi-retire that toon and start something new. I guess time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Delt

All the other bickering aside, a bard splash on a sorc is a stupid idea at this point in the game (ie: 20 cap). There is no real payoff.

Luckily, Lesser Reincarnates will allow everyone to fix that particular mistake pretty easily.

As for the ASF, pretty sure it was tested before - a fair amount of people splashed a bard level on their sorcs when the cap was lower. If spells aren't getting an ASF check anymore, that's a new addition.

Personally, I wouldn't trust Damionic's testing, as he doesn't sound especially knowledgable on the game. I'm sure there are plenty of vets with shelved 19sorc/1bard's that could try it out.

On that note, with the addition of the new reincarnates, I guess levelling will change slightly. People will start splashing self-healing/feat/AC classes early game, then swap out later for efficiancy. Should be interesting to see what happens.

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Actually that is true. I built a Bard/sorc to test the theory. Got him to level 6 and concuded his ASF went out the door when he took that level of bard.

I reported it then. Sounds like an exploit against the Turbine's rules, never mind 3.5 ones. I never said anything to anyone because I felt I was advertising an Exploit.

Daimonic, I don't think game-world-consistency is likely to get Turbine to ever change anything. I think only a balance argument or a "this makes for a bad play experience" argument is likely to produce a change in the rules.

In other words, you may be right that it would be more internally consistent to let bards cast in armor (or you may not be--I think it's a how-many-angels-on-the-head-of-a-pin argument, myself), but it doesn't really make any difference. The rules say they can't and if they can it is a bug that may or may not be fixed. Whether or not it get fixed likely has more to do with how long the developers' to-do-list is than anything else since it's not game breaking in any event.

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Originally Posted by Damionic

So its something that can be learned..IE a talent (remember sorcs gain there spells as talents)

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Yes, it absolutely can be learned. By taking levels of bard and learning spells the bardic way. If you take levels of sorc, you are learning spells the way sorcs cast them. Otherwise, you are trying to gain abilities from one class by taking levels in another. I'm fairly certain the multiclassing section you linked didn't have a rule allowing that. In fact, there are only a couple of explicitly defined abilities that allow that.

You can quibble all you want, and try to prove something by negation. I'll stick with these quotes from the SRD:

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Armor restricts the complicated gestures that a wizards or sorcerer must make while casting any spell that has a somatic component (most do).

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Armor of any type interferes with a sorcerer’s gestures, which can cause his spells with somatic components to fail.

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A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

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Your only rules-based argument seems to be that there isn't a rule explicitly stating that a bard/sorc suffers from ASF with the sorc spells, even though I quoted a rule that says exactly that. There also isn't a rule explicitly stating that humans don't have the ability to fly, but I wouldn't try to advance that argument. It has just as much validity though, since there isn't a rule saying they don't. I don't care if you try to advocate that the rule be changed, but you need to use valid arguments to support your premise first.

I also performed a test rolling a 3 sorc/1 bard. Casted sorc spells with somatic component in light armor with no ASF. I also made sure that I tried this with spells not on bard list, ie acid spray/shield. Not getting into the should it/did it/will it work discussion, but it does work as of yesterday.

There was a part 2 to the OP's question that hasn't really been discussed much, and that is regarding usage of divine wands. I had previously been of the opinion that you needed to have the caster level required for using wands with no UMD check, and that it was your level of the required caster class in a multi-class build which determined which wands you can use without a UMD check. I have recently come to belive that it is your total level that the computer uses to determine if you meet the level requirement, not just your caster level. This might not really matter much to level 20 toons with UMD skills, but it would make leveling significantly easier having access to level appropriate divine wands/scrolls on a non divine type with a one level splash.

I am hoping that this applies to my WF Barb. I am currently planning on taking my next (8th) level of Wiz so that I will be able to use Repair Crit Wands. If it is not true, then I will not be able to use the wand, which has a requirement of Wiz, Sorc 7 to use. Has anyone out there done this who can confirm whether this is viable currently? Really would like input from someone who has current game experience with this subject matter, not looking to start another arguement based on speculation, past (mod 1-8) experience, or opinions as to whether that too is or isn't a bug.

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Originally Posted by Crann

There was a part 2 to the OP's question that hasn't really been discussed much, and that is regarding usage of divine wands. I had previously been of the opinion that you needed to have the caster level required for using wands with no UMD check, and that it was your level of the required caster class in a multi-class build which determined which wands you can use without a UMD check. I have recently come to belive that it is your total level that the computer uses to determine if you meet the level requirement, not just your caster level. This might not really matter much to level 20 toons with UMD skills, but it would make leveling significantly easier having access to level appropriate divine wands/scrolls on a non divine type with a one level splash.

I am hoping that this applies to my WF Barb. I am currently planning on taking my next (8th) level of Wiz so that I will be able to use Repair Crit Wands. If it is not true, then I will not be able to use the wand, which has a requirement of Wiz, Sorc 7 to use. Has anyone out there done this who can confirm whether this is viable currently? Really would like input from someone who has current game experience with this subject matter, not looking to start another arguement based on speculation, past (mod 1-8) experience, or opinions as to whether that too is or isn't a bug.

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The reason there was not much discussion is because that part is considered - recently wrongly - to be common knowledge.

Provided that your character level is greater than or equal to the Minimum Level of the wand, you can use any wand when the spell is in the spell list of any of your classes, regardless of the spell level and the number of levels you have in that class.

This does not apply to scrolls.

As far as PnP goes. Bard/Sorcs should suffer ASF for any sorc spell that is not also a bard spell. 100% no ambiguity.

Per the 3.5 SRD,

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A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Bards are proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields). A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance.

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Bolded bit mine. This used to work properly. I can rememember testing this as far back as beta. If it does not work properly now, I would expect it to get fixed.

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Originally Posted by Crann

I also performed a test rolling a 3 sorc/1 bard. Casted sorc spells with somatic component in light armor with no ASF. I also made sure that I tried this with spells not on bard list, ie acid spray/shield. Not getting into the should it/did it/will it work discussion, but it does work as of yesterday.

There was a part 2 to the OP's question that hasn't really been discussed much, and that is regarding usage of divine wands. I had previously been of the opinion that you needed to have the caster level required for using wands with no UMD check, and that it was your level of the required caster class in a multi-class build which determined which wands you can use without a UMD check. I have recently come to belive that it is your total level that the computer uses to determine if you meet the level requirement, not just your caster level. This might not really matter much to level 20 toons with UMD skills, but it would make leveling significantly easier having access to level appropriate divine wands/scrolls on a non divine type with a one level splash.

I am hoping that this applies to my WF Barb. I am currently planning on taking my next (8th) level of Wiz so that I will be able to use Repair Crit Wands. If it is not true, then I will not be able to use the wand, which has a requirement of Wiz, Sorc 7 to use. Has anyone out there done this who can confirm whether this is viable currently? Really would like input from someone who has current game experience with this subject matter, not looking to start another arguement based on speculation, past (mod 1-8) experience, or opinions as to whether that too is or isn't a bug.

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It should work for you Crann. On my ranger 4/Wiz 1 I can use Blur and False Life wands, for instance, and the level 3 spell wands, like fireball, show as useable in the AH.

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Originally Posted by Darkgnoll

It should work for you Crann. On my ranger 4/Wiz 1 I can use Blur and False Life wands, for instance, and the level 3 spell wands, like fireball, show as useable in the AH.

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Thanks Darkgnoll......it has worked quite well. WF Barb8/Wiz1 now. Self healing more cost effective with wands over pots for between battle top offs, and can break rage to use repair crit wand when it really hits the fan and I'm out of potions. Adds a whole new dynamic to my character having access to all those lev 9 arcane wands, and lower level scrolls as well, not to mention 3 1st lev wiz spells (shield/jump/repair light).

I did notice that I am running a 45% rate with higher (for me) level scrolls like stoneskin. I have no UMD, and the scroll lists min level 5, as well as wiz lev 7 IIRC. Can anyone explain that mechanic or point me in the direction of a thread that does so. I understand the outside your class UMD check, but not how this particular percentage is generated.