So is a transmuter really better than SOS against Big Red?

Just wondering for all those number crunchers out there..

On a 16 barb which would be better? I can't seem to decide.

I alternate between a +3 transmuting great axe of pure good and the SOS.

Now, I do love that all red damage numbers on the axe, but that 13-20 crit range on the SOS keeps calling to me. :D

Just wondering if the transmuter is really outdamaging the SOS?

The average damage on the transmuter seems to be around 45-55 a swing plus pure good effects. Crits are somewhere in the 160-175 range on average + pure good effects.

The SOS seems to hit normally for 35-45 damage and the crits hit for around 135-155. And it crits a LOT! 13-20 is a big difference from 17-20 on the axe.

So any number crunchers know the answers or want to do the calculation numbers?

Not a big number cruncher myself, but I would think given that huge crit range advantage, the SOS will win out vs the greataxe, on normal anyway when his DR is lowest. Hard/Elite you'll be better served with the transmuter as his DR climbs, however. Also need to keep in mind the swing speed of the axe (faster) vs the SOS (slower), especially if you're taking all 5 swings in your chain.

The axe wins.

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Originally Posted by Strumpoo

Just wondering for all those number crunchers out there..

On a 16 barb which would be better? I can't seem to decide.

I alternate between a +3 transmuting great axe of pure good and the SOS.

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Yes, a transmuter is normally better than SOS against Arraetrikos (although maybe a weak transmuter is not better). There are two reasons for this.
1. Fortification: Arraetrikos has 50% Fortification, so the critical hit advantage SOS normally enjoys over other weapons is only half as important.
2. DR: SOS cannot penetrate Arraetrikos's Damage Reduction (15 normal), so your Glancing Blows will be reduced almost to zero.

The Glancing Blows issue becomes more important if your barb has the THF feats (which he should have if he uses greataxes). Also if you're a dwarf, that's another damage bonus for the axe.

The more interesting question is if an SOS is better than a transmuter against Suulomades. He may have 0% Fortification, which makes the SOS relatively better. Is that enough better to put it over the top? I'm not sure, and the answer partly depends on the exact DR involved. With so many other monsters in that raid it's been difficult for me to count the DR.

Two general rules to live by for anyone who wants to do DPS:

1. The 1st # is always the most important one.

2. You want the 1# to be Red.

The Greataxe wins.




Tip #2,003,982: If you make a Mineral II weapon; you can get rid of all other (non-greensteel) DPS weapons in your inventory.

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Originally Posted by Darth Sizzle

1. The 1st # is always the most important one.
2. You want the 1# to be Red.
The Greataxe wins.

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More often than not, the Sword of Shadows will beat the DPS of other random weapons that happen to penetrate DR (especially if the other weapons only have 2x crits). Barbarians have enough strength that they can blow through typical DR 5 or 10 without caring. Arraetrikos is a special case where the SOS is not so good.

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Originally Posted by Darth Sizzle

Two general rules to live by for anyone who wants to do DPS:

1. The 1st # is always the most important one.

2. You want the 1# to be Red.

The Greataxe wins.

Tip #2,003,982: If you make a Mineral II weapon; you can get rid of all other (non-greensteel) DPS weapons in your inventory.

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Good points guys..


Yeah, the mineral II weapons are nice, I just don't make them because I like the cool effects on the other weapons. Transmuting is sooo boring compared to a cool lightning strike, disintigrate, crushing wave etc...:D


I am not so sure on the red damage number being that important. I wish we had a damage calulator to verfiy this (please devs:D), but I am thinking that the 40% crit chance vs 20% keeps the SOS right there, if not slightly ahead of this transmuter.

That is why we need a numbers crunching type in this thread! ;)

If the transmuter averages about 10-15 more per "regular" hit and about 20-40 more on crits but only crits half the time, I just don't know if it can outdistance the superior crit range on the SOS..... It would take 3-5 regular hits to make up for one crit on the SOS..

One or two (sometimes even 3-4 in a row!) 150 point crits on the SOS sure takes a lot of catching up from the transmuter.

I haven't noticed too much interference from his fortification, not on Normal difficulties anyway. I am sure the increasing DR on Hard/Elite would definitely put the Transmuter ahead.

It has been my experience, and it is only annecdotal since I haven't kept track of every hit I've made, that my +3 Transmuting Greataxe of Shattermantle (and yes that suffix is important for 2 reasons, 1. I am not doing any more damage from it, 2. casters get a benefit when debuffing and damaging him) does more damage than my SoS. This is exactly as the OP said, I tend to to about 10-15pts less damage on base hits and 15-20pts of damage less on crits. With the 50% SoS does not crit enough where the greataxe would not to make up the difference. Remember, you are going to be critting on a 17 with the axe. Yes, you will crit more with the SoS than you would with the axe, but the difference is not enough to make SoS better.

Also, remember this against one specific raid boss. Short of a Mineral II Greatsword or Axe, SoS will out damage almost everything in the game.

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Originally Posted by Darth Sizzle

Two general rules to live by for anyone who wants to do DPS:

1. The 1st # is always the most important one.

2. You want the 1# to be Red.

The Greataxe wins.

Tip #2,003,982: If you make a Mineral II weapon; you can get rid of all other (non-greensteel) DPS weapons in your inventory.

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Close. You want that first number to be purple. :cool:

But at a minimum red. The greataxe still wins. :)

I use a +1 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe on the beast, and still feel like I am not churning out the numbers I ought to be.

No matter what you use, be sure that everyone is using something to get past his DR.

If you are dishing higher yellow numbers more often with the SoS than you are with a +3 transmuter, use that instead(but I doubt you are).

Isn't that 50% fort that people are discussing only on hard? I was under the impression he was sitting at only 25% fort on normal, 50% on hard, and 100% on elite.

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Originally Posted by Blazer

Isn't that 50% fort that people are discussing only on hard? I was under the impression he was sitting at only 25% fort on normal, 50% on hard, and 100% on elite.

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No....... the 50% fort is on Normal. Ive seen it in my combat logs for sure. It worked out perfectly once when I had 8 crits in combat log and 4 resisted on rolls some of which were higher than other confirmed crits. I figured it was 50% and later someone confirmed that for me.......... on normal. I dont think Ive ever run hard........... yet.

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Originally Posted by captain1z

No....... the 50% fort is on Normal. Ive seen it in my combat logs for sure. It worked out perfectly once when I had 8 crits in combat log and 4 resisted on rolls some of which were higher than other confirmed crits. I figured it was 50% and later someone confirmed that for me.......... on normal. I dont think Ive ever run hard........... yet.

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Ok, thanks. I guess I've been luckier than average when meleeing him as I tend to see a good deal of crits, even with that 50% fort on normal. I know it went way down on hard, so I guess that's about 75% fort. Too bad we can't get the combat log to export to a file, rather than just simply lose anything that's not still in the window at the time, it would be a fun exercise to see the full sets of attacks from beginning of combat to end.

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Originally Posted by Blazer

Isn't that 50% fort that people are discussing only on hard? I was under the impression he was sitting at only 25% fort on normal, 50% on hard, and 100% on elite.

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pretty sure its 50% across the board. If it does go up, its definetly not 100% on elite because i was critting him.

SoS is sooooo yesterday.

conditions L16 barb, PA active, non damage enhancements, bard song +6, crits auto confirmed, variable: str bonus 0 - 20

this is with 0% fort
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/c...sosvstrans.jpg

this is with 50% fort
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/c...osvstrans2.jpg

result? the +3 transmuting greataxe is better than SoS

why? DR15

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Originally Posted by nakedfatguy

pretty sure its 50% across the board. If it does go up, its definetly not 100% on elite because i was critting him.

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I was just relying on what folks had said earlier when the mod came out initially (mostly going by numbers Shade had estimated). So if it's 50% across the board, that's good to know. Does his DR go up significantly with difficulty too? I had seen numbers approximating 15/30/60 for N/H/E.

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Originally Posted by Blazer

I was just relying on what folks had said earlier when the mod came out initially (mostly going by numbers Shade had estimated). So if it's 50% across the board, that's good to know. Does his DR go up significantly with difficulty too? I had seen numbers approximating 15/30/60 for N/H/E.

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yes dr is 15/30/60

Of course it also excludes the glancing blows pushing the Transmuter DPS even higher?

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Originally Posted by Borror0

Of course it also excludes the glancing blows pushing the Transmuter DPS even higher?

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yeap a THF specced player is going to get like 3-4 glancing blows every attack sequence for 20-30 each

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Originally Posted by GlassCannon

I use a +1 Holy Burst Silver Greataxe on the beast, and still feel like I am not churning out the numbers I ought to be.

No matter what you use, be sure that everyone is using something to get past his DR.

If you are dishing higher yellow numbers more often with the SoS than you are with a +3 transmuter, use that instead(but I doubt you are).

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The +1 holy burst is a fairly crappy weapon -- vs. a plain +5, you're trading 4 crittable damage for a 2d6 effect and the burst. The damage is slightly better than a plain +5 (total added by HB over 20 swings is 161, as opposed to 108 for the plain +5 -- a +5 of pg is up to 174.5), but the 4 additional attack bonus offsets the damage difference.


And I can't think of any way the SOS could outdamage a decent transmuter against something with DR 15+. Losing 4 glancing blows per chain at 20-25 damage each is significant. Per 20 attacks, call it +320-ish damage to a single target.

Thanks for chart and the opinions guys.

Yeah I don't bust the SOS out too much anymore, just like the insane every other swing crits.. :D

Usually am using the Tier III stuff now, but against Big Red they are nothing special (unless mineral or a lightning bow)

I guess the Transmuter is indeed better, the glancing blows definitely should tip the scales in the transmuter's favor. Something I wasn't thinking of.

To make the comparison, think of DR slightly differently: Consider Transmuting to be a bonus 15 damage on every swing (on normal).

Your +3 transmuter of pure good has +3 accuracy, +21.5 damage (15 Transmuting, 3.5 PG, +3 Enhancement)
Your SoS has +5 accuracy, +5 damage and better crits.



The question becomes - would you prefer +2 accuracy and better crits over +16.5 damage? I think the answer would be close, save for Arrietrikos's 50% Fortification (so your SoS crits on average deal double, not triple damage - triple on the one that gets through his fort, normal on the one that doesn't - average double damage on a 13-20 that is confirmed) as opposed to the greataxe (double damage on average again, 17-20).

Also on Normal, Arraetrikos's AC isn't high enough that the +2 accuracy matters much (it does a LOT more on elite where it is 51)




My guide to acceptable weapon quality for the Fiend:

Normal - anything +3 or better that bypasses DR is acceptable, as is any bursting of greater bane or +4 or better greater bane that doesn't bypass DR
Hard - minimum acceptible is a +5 transmuter with a weak kicker like backstab +1 or lesser bane (other reasonably equivalent weapons like +5 silver of pure good, +4 transmuting of lesser bane, +2 transmuting of bane, +3 holy silver, +1 holy burst silver of pure good are all fine)
Elite - You need something special here - holy silver of bane, transmuting of greater bane, Mineral 2, or if TWF, any two of the earlier listed weapons or a weapon set of something like Holy silver of Backstab +4//Seeker 8 silver of pure good.

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Originally Posted by Citymorg

...my +3 Transmuting Greataxe of Shattermantle (and yes that suffix is important for 2 reasons, 1. I am not doing any more damage from it, 2. casters get a benefit when debuffing and damaging him)...

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Damaging spells do not suffer SR. Debuffs? Against the Pit Fiend? What debuffs can you use on the pit fiend?

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Originally Posted by Darth Sizzle

Damaging spells do not suffer SR. Debuffs? Against the Pit Fiend? What debuffs can you use on the pit fiend?

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On my caster I use Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Crushing Despair, and Waves of Fatigue.

They all land and stick on him. They help to slow him down a little for the tankers and help the clerics by lowering his damage. ;)

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Originally Posted by Darth Sizzle

Damaging spells do not suffer SR. Debuffs? Against the Pit Fiend? What debuffs can you use on the pit fiend?

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Ray of enfeeble/exhaustion, waves of fatigue/exhaustion (which lists its effect separately from the ray version), symbol of weakness, probably also symbol of pain. As a general rule, necromancy debuffs work against everything. If you landed all of those, that's easily -15 attack. (and crushing despair! Forgot that one...)

There's also a small damage penalty for solid fog, although I don't think anyone has tested whether it's actually being applied (would have to test in a ctf arena...).


And nice weapon listing Sirgog. I pretty much agree.

Probably for Sulo, you need to have at least a weapon that'd be acceptable on hard in Shroud. Definitely wish more people would build mineral II weaps instead of useless garbage like lightning strike though...

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Originally Posted by Averroes

Ray of enfeeble/exhaustion, waves of fatigue/exhaustion (which lists its effect separately from the ray version), symbol of weakness, probably also symbol of pain. As a general rule, necromancy debuffs work against everything. If you landed all of those, that's easily -15 attack. (and crushing despair! Forgot that one...)

There's also a small damage penalty for solid fog, although I don't think anyone has tested whether it's actually being applied (would have to test in a ctf arena...).


And nice weapon listing Sirgog. I pretty much agree.

Probably for Sulo, you need to have at least a weapon that'd be acceptable on hard in Shroud. Definitely wish more people would build mineral II weaps instead of useless garbage like lightning strike though...

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Yep, I think the necro de-buffs are quite handy against bosses.

I have to disagree with the other enhancements being "useless garbage" ;)

Ever see a ranger group with a few of those "useless" lightning bows ahnillilate Big Red? It is a beautiful thing. Think our last round five took 7-8 mins. Only had enough time to manyshot 3 times. :eek:

Crushing Wave hits the portals for Full Damage. ;) And absolutely destroys anything that is firey in nature (fire ele in part 2 anyone?).

Radiance ....mmm... Roguie Damage insanity.


They all have their uses... Just because they aren't transmuting I wouldn't call them useless. :)

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Originally Posted by Strumpoo

Yep, I think the necro de-buffs are quite handy against bosses.

I have to disagree with the other enhancements being "useless garbage" ;)

Ever see a ranger group with a few of those "useless" lightning bows ahnillilate Big Red? It is a beautiful thing. Think our last round five took 7-8 mins. Only had enough time to manyshot 3 times. :eek:

Crushing Wave hits the portals for Full Damage. ;) And absolutely destroys anything that is firey in nature (fire ele in part 2 anyone?).

Radiance ....mmm... Roguie Damage insanity.


They all have their uses... Just because they aren't transmuting I wouldn't call them useless. :)

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av is referring to melee weapons as the lightning strike is unable to bypass the dr. going by the avg percentage of a lightning strike at 2% in 100 hits, the mineral 2 will do about 1500 more base damage but the lightning strike will do 1200. so there is an approx loss of 300. bows are different as they are able to bypass dr with silver arrows

(ps i do not know what is the resist acid rating of harry, lightning goes thru as per normal, so the gap could be smaller, there could also be a chance where the lightning strike will out dps mineral 2 on NORMAL. on hard, harry has dr30, its going to be diff to pull level)

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Originally Posted by sirgog

To make the comparison, think of DR slightly differently: Consider Transmuting to be a bonus 15 damage on every swing (on normal).

Your +3 transmuter of pure good has +3 accuracy, +21.5 damage (15 Transmuting, 3.5 PG, +3 Enhancement)
Your SoS has +5 accuracy, +5 damage and better crits.



The question becomes - would you prefer +2 accuracy and better crits over +16.5 damage? I think the answer would be close, save for Arrietrikos's 50% Fortification (so your SoS crits on average deal double, not triple damage - triple on the one that gets through his fort, normal on the one that doesn't - average double damage on a 13-20 that is confirmed) as opposed to the greataxe (double damage on average again, 17-20).

Also on Normal, Arraetrikos's AC isn't high enough that the +2 accuracy matters much (it does a LOT more on elite where it is 51)




My guide to acceptable weapon quality for the Fiend:

Normal - anything +3 or better that bypasses DR is acceptable, as is any bursting of greater bane or +4 or better greater bane that doesn't bypass DR
Hard - minimum acceptible is a +5 transmuter with a weak kicker like backstab +1 or lesser bane (other reasonably equivalent weapons like +5 silver of pure good, +4 transmuting of lesser bane, +2 transmuting of bane, +3 holy silver, +1 holy burst silver of pure good are all fine)
Elite - You need something special here - holy silver of bane, transmuting of greater bane, Mineral 2, or if TWF, any two of the earlier listed weapons or a weapon set of something like Holy silver of Backstab +4//Seeker 8 silver of pure good.

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I think this is great. However, I don't have any of these weapons. My best Pit Fiend weapons are, in order:
+3 Transmuting Greataxe of Shattermantle
+1 Holy Silver Battleaxe
Sword of Shadows
+5 Mineral I Greataxe

I don't have a problem hitting either Pit fiend with these. Therefore, I do not believe it is necessary to have a +3 or a +5 in some cases. Yes, the extra +4 to hit and +4 damage is siginificant. It makes having +5 far superior, but at least on normal and probably on hard, I do not consider necessary, as long as you are able effectively bypass DR and still land a hit (get that extra +15/hit).

I have never done the Shroud on Elite so I don't know if less than a +5 would still hit or not.

Other than that, I agree with your list and thank you for putting it together.

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Originally Posted by Aranticus

av is referring to melee weapons as the lightning strike is unable to bypass the dr. going by the avg percentage of a lightning strike at 2% in 100 hits, the mineral 2 will do about 1500 more base damage but the lightning strike will do 1200. so there is an approx loss of 300. bows are different as they are able to bypass dr with silver arrows

(ps i do not know what is the resist acid rating of harry, lightning goes thru as per normal, so the gap could be smaller, there could also be a chance where the lightning strike will out dps mineral 2 on NORMAL. on hard, harry has dr30, its going to be diff to pull level)

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Hmmm, well that doesn't sound right. The lightning strike should bypass his DR even with melee weapons. After all it is lightning, which he has no DR against. Sounds like a bug. My caster doesn't need to use a "silver pure good" lightning spell to penetrate any DR. The lightning strike effect should work the same, since it is a "spell" type effect. :confused:


Acid resist is 15 I beleive (on normal) (hard 30), my acid fogs and what not are Yellow numbers. So I would think the melees are getting no damage off of the acid effect on mineral II items.

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Originally Posted by Strumpoo

Hmmm, well that doesn't sound right. The lightning strike should bypass his DR even with melee weapons. After all it is lightning, which he has no DR against. Sounds like a bug. My caster doesn't need to use a "silver pure good" lightning spell to penetrate any DR. The lightning strike effect should work the same, since it is a "spell" type effect. :confused:

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He's not talking about the lightning effect. He's talking about the physical, every hit damage from the lightning II weapon.

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Originally Posted by Strumpoo

Hmmm, well that doesn't sound right. The lightning strike should bypass his DR even with melee weapons. After all it is lightning, which he has no DR against. Sounds like a bug. My caster doesn't need to use a "silver pure good" lightning spell to penetrate any DR. The lightning strike effect should work the same, since it is a "spell" type effect. :confused:


Acid resist is 15 I beleive (on normal) (hard 30), my acid fogs and what not are Yellow numbers. So I would think the melees are getting no damage off of the acid effect on mineral II items.

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Yes, the lightning strike bypasses his DR, but the main damage number doesn't.

On a two-handed weapon, on normal, you lose (15*5) + (15*4) = 135 damage every five swings due to not bypassing DR. Obviously that number goes up dramatically on hard or elite.

Extrapolate that out over 100 swings, and that's 2700 damage lost, versus the 1200 gained by lightning strike, before factoring in other effects (and yes, the lower level lightning effects will narrow the gap somewhat, but it still isn't close).


I was being somewhat facetious when I called all other shroud weapon effects "useless garbage", but my point remains -- if you're using any shroud melee weapon in there other than a mineral II weapon, you're giving up damage relative to a weapon that would bypass DR.

And as was pointed out above, it's different for bows, assuming the bow-user is willing to carry the right arrows for the job.

Now does the shock effect on the melee weapons have any DR against it? It shouldn't right? If so I think the Tier III lightning weapons should keep up with the Mineral weapons. Since they are adding in all that shocking damage to make up for the damage lost to DR.

Never used a shock melee weapon on him so don't know...

The transmuting Great Axe of Greater Evil Outsider Bane will win.

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Originally Posted by Averroes

I was being somewhat facetious when I called all other shroud weapon effects "useless garbage", but my point remains -- if you're using any shroud melee weapon in there other than a mineral II weapon, you're giving up damage relative to a weapon that would bypass DR.

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A Lightning II weapon is more damaging than +1 transmuting. It's also more damaging than +5 transmuting. Or even +5 transmuting of pure good.

The transmuting gives you +15 damage. Lightning II has 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Shock + 10 Lightning Strike + some more Shocking Burst/Blast. That comes to 3d6+10 ~=19.5 extra damage, so that it is ahead of +5 transmuting by 4.5 damage even before you factor in the burst, blast, and larger physical damage die.

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Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

A Lightning II weapon is more damaging than +1 transmuting. It's also more damaging than +5 transmuting. Or even +5 transmuting of pure good.

The transmuting gives you +15 damage. Lightning II has 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Shock + 10 Lightning Strike + some more Shocking Burst/Blast. That comes to 3d6+10 ~=19.5 extra damage, so that it is ahead of +5 transmuting by 4.5 damage even before you factor in the burst, blast, and larger physical damage die.

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Only if you're using one-handed weapons, and only on normal.

If you're using a two-hander, transmuting is giving you 15 + (.2 * 60) = 27. So the lighting weapon is behind by 7.5 before factoring in burst and blast (which are unlikely to make up the difference), against just a plain jane +5 transmuter.



The other thing not being considered here is crit damage -- not bypassing DR also reduces your crittable damage. Once you factor that in, the gap widens dramatically in favor of transmuters.

For instance, if you're using a greataxe with a barbarian, and critting 17-20, you're giving up 45 damage per crit, 180 damage per 20 swings, or an average of 9 additional damage per swing.

So to add that back to the calculation above, the simple +5 transmuter is really at 36 damage added due to bypassing DR, as opposed to the 19.5 from the lightning damage dice. So a weapon that you can buy on the auction house for face value is roughly twice as effective as a weapon that takes 20+ shroud runs to grind out.


Again, the difference isn't as great with one handed weapons, and isn't as great on normal as on hard and elite, but if you really think that all those damage dice are making up for your yellow first number, you're very likely wrong. There's always the case of the 9 strength rogue, or whatever, but for the vast majority of situations, if you aren't bypassing DR, you aren't doing the most damage you could be doing.


For completeness, here's the calculation with a dual-wielding ranger:

+15 to every swing. Assume rapier, crit 15-20/x2. So 30*6=180 damage per 20 swings, same 9 average = 24

So if the burst and blast portion of the lightning effect equal 4.5 average damage over 20 swings they break even (the plain +5 transmuter and the tier-3 lightning weapon, that is). The mineral II weapon is miles ahead in each of these cases. Simply miles.

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Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

A Lightning II weapon is more damaging than +1 transmuting. It's also more damaging than +5 transmuting. Or even +5 transmuting of pure good.

The transmuting gives you +15 damage. Lightning II has 2d6 Holy + 1d6 Shock + 10 Lightning Strike + some more Shocking Burst/Blast. That comes to 3d6+10 ~=19.5 extra damage, so that it is ahead of +5 transmuting by 4.5 damage even before you factor in the burst, blast, and larger physical damage die.

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One last thing: counting lightning strike as 10 average damage is being *very* generous. 1200 over 100 swings is 12, sure, but the odds of having both procs do full damage without killing your target and wasting damage probably aren't very good.

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Originally Posted by Averroes

For instance, if you're using a greataxe with a barbarian, and critting 17-20, you're giving up 45 damage per crit, 180 damage per 20 swings, or an average of 9 additional damage per swing.

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wrong even on crit you still get DR15, the DR is not multiplied

ie
normal hit: weapon damage - DR, eg 50 - 15 = 35

crit hit: weapon damagex3 - DR, eg 50x3 - 15 = 135

both attacks are reduced by 15, the DR is not applied before the multiplication

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Originally Posted by Averroes

One last thing: counting lightning strike as 10 average damage is being *very* generous. 1200 over 100 swings is 12, sure, but the odds of having both procs do full damage without killing your target and wasting damage probably aren't very good.

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have you used a lightning strike before? if you have you'll know that the lightning strike does on average 530 - 670. most of the numbers you get however will lie between 600-630. plus we are talking about harry here with 750000 hp

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Originally Posted by Aranticus

wrong even on crit you still get DR15, the DR is not multiplied

ie
normal hit: weapon damage - DR, eg 50 - 15 = 35

crit hit: weapon damagex3 - DR, eg 50x3 - 15 = 135

both attacks are reduced by 15, the DR is not applied before the multiplication

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You're right. Dunno what I was thinking there.

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Originally Posted by Aranticus

have you used a lightning strike before? if you have you'll know that the lightning strike does on average 530 - 670. most of the numbers you get however will lie between 600-630. plus we are talking about harry here with 750000 hp

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Harry and Sulo are special cases with tons of hitpoints. The rest of this discussion applies equally to any target with DR, so things like wasted damage should be considered as well.

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Originally Posted by Averroes

Harry and Sulo are special cases with tons of hitpoints. The rest of this discussion applies equally to any target with DR, so things like wasted damage should be considered as well.

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Actually, the discussion is more regarding Arraetrikos and Suulomades... "So is a transmuter really better than SoS against Big Red?"

The fact is, it shouldn't matter which weapon you use against trash mobs with DR (ie, skellies, renders, etc.)--almost anything should be able to kill them reasonably quickly, and no weapon is going to make that huge of a difference on them. It is only on long drawn out fights like Arraetrikos and Suulomades that a 5-15 difference in damage per swing is going to matter.

So really, 10 damage per swing is probably being generous to the transmuter, as the 600 avg. damage works out to about 12 over the course of several hundred swings in a fight against one of the devil generals.

However, it is absolutely correct that 2-hander lightning weapons fall a good bit farther behind a transmuter because of the glancing blows.

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Originally Posted by Averroes

Harry and Sulo are special cases with tons of hitpoints. The rest of this discussion applies equally to any target with DR, so things like wasted damage should be considered as well.

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i dunno whats the title for then................ :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Averroes

That's incorrect. And really easy to test. Otherwise my SOS would crit Harry for 180, not 150.

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No, you're the one who is incorrect. But it's true that this is easy to test.

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Originally Posted by Averroes

That's incorrect. And really easy to test. Otherwise my SOS would crit Harry for 180, not 150.

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assuming 50 str barb with maxed out PA enhancement

SoS = 12
str mod = +30
bard song = +6
prayer = +1
PA = 16
total = 65
crit = 195

DR = 15

actual damage = 180

assuming 40 str barb with maxed out PA enhancement

SoS = 12
str mod = +22
bard song = +6
prayer = +1
PA = 16
total = 57
crit = 171

DR = 15

actual damage = 156

i know most barb do not have a consistent 50 str....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aranticus

assuming 50 str barb with maxed out PA enhancement

SoS = 12
str mod = +30
bard song = +6
prayer = +1
PA = 16
total = 65
crit = 195

DR = 15

actual damage = 180

assuming 40 str barb with maxed out PA enhancement

SoS = 12
str mod = +22
bard song = +6
prayer = +1
PA = 16
total = 57
crit = 171

DR = 15

actual damage = 156

i know most barb do not have a consistent 50 str....

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you forgot seeker +6 ..cause what dps'er doesnt have a bloodstone? so 156+18=174 and a 40 is a low end barb so your really looking at 44-46 str, making your upper end crits exceed 180+

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spyderwolf

you forgot seeker +6 ..cause what dps'er doesnt have a bloodstone? so 156+18=174 and a 40 is a low end barb so your really looking at 44-46 str, making your upper end crits exceed 180+

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nope i did not forget. i did not put it in as there are people who are unable to get a bloodstone. i also left out warchanting buffs as well as barb damage boost. these are not the norm. as for the strength, i factored in a 40 str as well as a 50 str for the lower and upper limits