"Greater" Disruption

So much to my (short-lived) glee I finally got my green steel weapon up to tier three this evening. I went Positive+Positive+Positive hoping that my weapon would become a disruptor at the end as was said in the spreadsheet on crafting.

When I hear something called 'Greater' I usually assume it's better than the regular version. In the case of Greater Disruption, this is a false statement. Greater disruption procs perhaps 1-3% of the time against undead only and hits them with disruption. (They get no save from what I can tell). But here's the thing: 1-3% isn't as good as a regular disruption weapon! Your target will fail it's save on a 1 every time. And a one is rolled not 3, not 4 but 5% of the time on a d20! This means that you are less likely to disrupt an undead creature with a greater disruption weapon than with a standard disruptor.

Not only is that frustratingly underpowered compared to a regular disruptor. It's also frustratingly underpowered compared to the other tier 3 single element upgrades. All of which proc the same amount of the time, but are effective against all targets, of all power levels and all types. I would rather be doing 300 or so extra damage 1% of the time against all targets rather than have an ability that I already have a better version of on a weapon that I haven't been farming to get since Mod6 came out.

So it would be nice if you either made Greater Disruption worth getting, or if you named it 'Disruption blast' so people like me wouldn't be fooled into crafting a clearly inferior item.

Think of it more like 1-3% of the time the undead gets no save. Even if he only fails his save on a 1, that 1-3% chance could take place on what would have been a roll of a 20.

Being denied a saving throw 3% of the time is a pretty big deal vs. an auto failed roll of a 1....... the 2 are not equal.


In all honesty tho.... when I read the threads name I thought there was a disruption weapon with a higher DC on it than what we have now.

greater disruption sounds more like a higher DC to me than basicly a vorpal + disrupter combo... which is what this sounds like.

ouch! I'm sorry to hear that. I was thinking that would be a nice weapon to make too. Maybe this will get some attention. Just add ing regular disruption would be nice compared I guess. Maybe it is broken and not really know as of yet? maybe it's supposed to be regular disruption with a 1-3% chance to have the effect trigger an "no save" for the undead mob. That was my understanding of the effect from previous posts at least...

Your right greater disruption weapons are completely stupid...its not like they have holy, good burst, and good blast on them or anything........oh wait they do :rolleyes: MY BAD. They are amazing dps weapons that have a chance to disrupt on top of all the damage they deal out

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Originally Posted by Bombalo

Your right greater disruption weapons are completely stupid...its not like they have holy, good burst, and good blast on them or anything........oh wait they do :rolleyes: MY BAD. They are amazing dps weapons that have a chance to disrupt on top of all the damage they deal out

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You'll get comparable DPS if that 3%-ish chance does 300 extra damage rather than disrupts undead. I do more DPS with my Flaming Greater Undead Bane. Also The damage from another element is more reliable and will work against different creatures other than only evil ones.

Say for instance I go Fire-Fire-Fire instead, I'll have comparable DPS, but I will be able to utilize that DPS against any enemy

Base DPS on all weapons will be the same. We'll say a longsword, so 5.5 average damage per swing. Next, we figure in the criticals, these add 20 extra d10.

Basic:
F+F+F: 660 damage
P+P+P: 660 damage


Now, let's add the elemental effects. That's 2d6 for positive one, 1d6 for positive two, and 1d6 for fire one. Then, we have criticals, so from those 15 critical hits scored Holy will do 3d6 extra, plus 4d6 more on 5 natural 20's. Likewise Fire will do 2d6 extra and 4d6 extra on their natural 20's.

F+F+F: 1220 damage
P+P+P: 2200 damage (Against Evil only. 1010 against neutral or good)

At this point it seems as though the positive is MUCH better, but, now let's add in that 3% chance at 300 damage:

F+F+F: 2120 damage
P+P+P: 2200 damage (Against Evil only. 1010 against neutral or good)

Positive does 80 more damage over 100 swings, now here's the difference: With that middle fire focus, I could have instead gone for +2 AC, +6 Dexterity, Greater Fire Resistance or a number of other abilities and retained the same DPS. The only way to get DPS to that level with the holy sword is to get the tier two upgrade to make it pure good. If you were to use that for a different purpose as you could with the fire weapon, you would come out with 350 less damage over 100 swings. So, in a holy weapon, you trade away versatility and a +2 AC for an ability that only works against undead a very slim percentage of the time. Now let's look at an elemental greater bane, of which my fighter has a full set:

Flaming longsword of greater undead bane: 1950
Great Tyrant Longsword (Positive (Holy), Positive (+2 AC), Positive (Holy Blast)): 1740
Great Tyrant Longsword (Fire (Flaming), Fire (+2 AC), Fire (Flaming Blast)): 1770

I didn't add critical damage to either because they'd be used against undead.

Yes... that's some amazing DPS. Let's compare that to some other raid loot, like saaaay... Enduring Conviction.

Enduring Conviction against any non-good, non-lawful: 1760 + Banishing

Now here's betting that if the abbot weren't broken and could be completed as easily as The Shroud I could get an Enduring Conviction LONG before I finished my Green Steel.

To sum everything up:
If you go Positive-Positive-Positive you lose versatility against non-evil and non-undead for less than 1 damage per swing. If you use mixed foci you'll have even BETTER DPS than any of the weapons listed here.

a %?

what the hell..

seriously. Greater Disruption should not ever be a % activateable, but instead a slightly overpowered version of Disruption that activates 100% of the time.

There goes all the time I have dumped into the raid so far...

On Items the Grater Disrupshin should work as a 2-3x DC in comparison to Disruption, with damage on a failed throw(like FoD on living targets for example).

I agree with the OP. Greater disruption should either

1) Be disruption + the current greater disruption effect
2) Be disruption only with a higher DC

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Originally Posted by captain1z

Think of it more like 1-3% of the time the undead gets no save. Even if he only fails his save on a 1, that 1-3% chance could take place on what would have been a roll of a 20.

Being denied a saving throw 3% of the time is a pretty big deal vs. an auto failed roll of a 1....... the 2 are not equal.

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Uh, actually they are.

Disruption: Procs on hit. Undead rolls a save. 5% of the time it's auto-failure. Depending on the target's save they may also fail more of the time. Result: Automatic disruption on 5% of hits, potential for more disruptions based on target's saves.

Greater Disrution: Procs on 1-3% of hits. Undead rolls no save, is simply disrupted. Result: Automatic Disruption on 1-3% of hits, no chance for more disruptions.

One of these things is better than the other and it's not the one that's labeled Greater.

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

Uh, actually they are.

Disruption: Procs on hit. Undead rolls a save. 5% of the time it's auto-failure. Depending on the target's save they may also fail more of the time. Result: Automatic disruption on 5% of hits, potential for more disruptions based on target's saves.

Greater Disrution: Procs on 1-3% of hits. Undead rolls no save, is simply disrupted. Result: Automatic Disruption on 1-3% of hits, no chance for more disruptions.

One of these things is better than the other and it's not the one that's labeled Greater.

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I have to agree with MT and everyone else on this subject.

Disruption has already has a way to balance its effects - the DC 14 Will save.

We should be asking the devs why they just didn't increase the DC to 16 or 18 and then call it Greater Disruption. Why get cute and have a no-save effect that doesn't process that often? These weapons are supposed to be "Wow!". Right now they are just sort of "Oh cool."

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

One of these things is better than the other and it's not the one that's labeled Greater.

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What if it worked on Red (but not purple) named bosses? (not that is does. just pondering. :))

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Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier

What if it worked on Red (but not purple) named bosses? (not that is does. just pondering. :))

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Then it would be better in a few rare instances and continue to be worse in most others.

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

Then it would be better in a few rare instances and continue to be worse in most others.

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That was the idea. :)

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Originally Posted by captain1z

Think of it more like 1-3% of the time the undead gets no save. Even if he only fails his save on a 1, that 1-3% chance could take place on what would have been a roll of a 20.

Being denied a saving throw 3% of the time is a pretty big deal vs. an auto failed roll of a 1....... the 2 are not equal.


In all honesty tho.... when I read the threads name I thought there was a disruption weapon with a higher DC on it than what we have now.

greater disruption sounds more like a higher DC to me than basicly a vorpal + disrupter combo... which is what this sounds like.

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What are you talking about?

Greater disruption is worse in every single case than regular disruption. Worst case scenario... Greater Disruption activates half as often as Regular Disruption. Against low will save undead? Regular disruption could activate 20,30,40, 50 TIMES as often.

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Originally Posted by bobbryan2

What are you talking about?

Greater disruption is worse in every single case than regular disruption. Worst case scenario... Greater Disruption activates half as often as Regular Disruption. Against low will save undead? Regular disruption could activate 20,30,40, 50 TIMES as often.

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This would make the Enchantment on the Green Steel Items something like Minor Disruption.

Devs, if the Disruption is to activate on less than 100% of the time, call it Minor Disruption please.

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Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier

That was the idea. :)

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Still doesn't really seem worth it. The True Resurrection clicky is a better power.

At the very least, it should be equal in power to Disruption. I think the suggestion of making Greater Disruption into "Regular Disruption + current Greater Disruption Effect" is worth pursuing.

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Originally Posted by Bombalo

Your right greater disruption weapons are completely stupid...its not like they have holy, good burst, and good blast on them or anything........oh wait they do :rolleyes: MY BAD. They are amazing dps weapons that have a chance to disrupt on top of all the damage they deal out

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Well, there's the first person that totally missed the point. I knew someone would.

The weapon isn't really the problem here. The problem is that the weapon effect greater disruption is worse than disruption. Really... they should just name it minor disruption and call it good.

All things considered, the weapon is probably powerful enough. Changing it to normal disruption wouldn't be too terribly overpowered either.

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Originally Posted by captain1z

Think of it more like 1-3% of the time the undead gets no save. Even if he only fails his save on a 1, that 1-3% chance could take place on what would have been a roll of a 20.

Being denied a saving throw 3% of the time is a pretty big deal vs. an auto failed roll of a 1....... the 2 are not equal.


In all honesty tho.... when I read the threads name I thought there was a disruption weapon with a higher DC on it than what we have now.

greater disruption sounds more like a higher DC to me than basicly a vorpal + disrupter combo... which is what this sounds like.

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Opp's Mt already summed up what I was going to say.

I am also frustrated with the term Greater Disruption, there is nothing great about it. I was hoping of replacing my disruption bow with something really cool, now I just have a huge dps bow and I still have to carry disruption.

I was under the impression that greater disruption was going to be something like DC23, if it's less effective than disruption, that's counter-intuitive to say the least.

Where was the data gathered on the greater disruption effect? What cr, type and number of mobs was used to determine it's 3%?

A Higher DC disruption effect (Like a greater slaying arrow) is definately the way to go.

Think the "Greater Disruption" is just refering to the fact that its a DC35 save vs a DC14 as with regular disruption. But really think about it guys, I you had a fully upgraded 3rd teir weapon with holy/positive all the way AND had a full time DC35 diruption option it would be severly overpowered. Almost EVERY time the greater disruption goes off it disrupts. It may only be 3% or so but it always lands. Same with the Disruption Guard on the items. Maybe they should have named it Greater every-now-and-then Dispuption but it is still Greater due to the crazy high DC of it. i have a fully upgraded Khopesh and after seeing the damage string on a 15d6 crit I just couldnt get upset about the fact that it doesnt disrupt on every hit. And if you had carefully read the discription you would have understood that it wasnt an every hit type of effect like regular disruption.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...nShot00089.jpg


See. :)

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Originally Posted by Gruntus

It may only be 3% or so but it always lands.

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Please see above post as to why this is really "lesser disruption."

You guys can play on words all day. FACT is they call it Greater because of the save NOT the frequency of disrupts like you wish it was. Just saying you are taking the Greater out of text. Read the description. Its termonology is based on the save not the frequency no matter how much we wish it was the opposite.

we get it Gruntus... unfortunately making it go from 100% on hit to 3% on hit means much more than any amount of DC raise.

If Disruption was DC1, it'd STILL succeed 5% of the time.

It'd have to be around 10%+ at the very least to be an improvement.

People aren't good at math/statistics. The whole 3% proc rate but NO SAVE!!! vs only guaranteed to work if they roll a 1 thing is quite humorous. If I don't laugh I'll cry.

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Originally Posted by Gruntus

You guys can play on words all day. FACT is they call it Greater because of the save NOT the frequency of disrupts like you wish it was. Just saying you are taking the Greater out of text. Read the description. Its termonology is based on the save not the frequency no matter how much we wish it was the opposite.

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Oooooh, I get it now.

In this context, Greater means horribly worse. Gotcha... I was taking that word out of context.

Tier 3 effects land too little overall.

Seriously...the fact that a 24 large ingredients (plus cells and shards), or even 12 large ingredients, which given the 50% or so drop rate, means your running the pit fiend 24-48 times simeply to get a single upgraded item is a LOT. More than other raids.

Saying that it is even possible that the special effect at tier 3 can even land only 1% of the time....and that in many cases the tier 3 effect is LESS powerful than many other weapons that are currently in the game is really, really underpowered for the effort involved.

Hmmm...1-3% chance of earth grab. Or just use a vorp. If you have a good to hit, and crit confirmation enhancements...again thats a 5% chance of a guarenteed kill - and earth grab isnt even guarenteed to kill if your just using damage.

Greater disruption, as above is less likely to kill undead than plain old disruption.

Air guard - yes haste is nice...but since most people are hasted in groups much of the time anyway...and knockdown might be nice...if it landed a lot, but unless it is hitting monsters 50% of the time...(unlike whirlwind effects of air elementals that hit 100% of the time, even if you save.)

The damage ones seem nice, except most mod 6 monsters(devils) are immune or resistant to all but 1 element. And only a single upgrade path will make a weapon that gets past the pit fiend dr. One.

Unholy is good for 2 quests in the game (purge the heretics really should count though), and slay living is nice, but a low chance means other weapons are probably just as good.

Some of the effects are really nice, like adding to your skills, spell points, hit points. But the 'special' tier 3 effects, given that this is the top end high level raid are underpowered. The fact that you can point to most tier 3 weapons and say "Well it is good in one case, but most times other weapons you already have are better" is a really underwhelming benefit to having to run the shroud 2 dozen times.

Long story short - the rate of a special effect landing should be at least 5%, and probably more. 10% might be a bit high, but 7-8% is probably a good number where people would actually be excited about using a weapon.

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Originally Posted by Vhlad/Sair

People aren't good at math/statistics. The whole 3% proc rate but NO SAVE!!! vs only guaranteed to work if they roll a 1 thing is quite humorous. If I don't laugh I'll cry.

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Indeed.

Oh wait...your saying that the 3% chance, which is guarenteed...needs no roll so its better?

Umm...not to point out say...the obvious...but any % chance means a roll of...the percent 'dice' rather than the d20 'die'...

So how is 1-3% better than 5% again? Please go on.

(Oh and not all undead have a high will save, so on some undead a 'regular' disrupting weapon will land much more than 5% of the time...so...umm....yeah.)

How about "Greater Disruption Guard"?

I'll agree greater disruption might be a misnomer. But that's about it. You get a holy, pure good burst, pure good blast weapon that also has some disruption on it and a true rez clickie. That's an excellent weapon. If you made this "greater disruption" the same as regular disruption, this weapon would be ridiculous. I for one think this weapon's ok.

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Originally Posted by artvan delet

I'll agree greater disruption might be a misnomer. But that's about it. You get a holy, pure good burst, pure good blast weapon that also has some disruption on it and a true rez clickie. That's an excellent weapon. If you made this "greater disruption" the same as regular disruption, this weapon would be ridiculous. I for one think this weapon's ok.

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How would it be ridiculous when the longsword from the abbot does the same thing to demons that this would do to undead, but also can hit non-evil targets for 2d6 instead of 1? Well, it doesn't have the rez clickie, but let's face it, most elite toons in the game right now have either a rez ring or can UMD scrolls. Just food for thought. I've never /had/ to use it, maybe if True Ressurection did something notably better... like brought you back without the death penalty or something :P

Green Steel items should be on par with other raid loot in the game.

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Originally Posted by Gruntus

Think the "Greater Disruption" is just refering to the fact that its a DC35 save vs a DC14 as with regular disruption. But really think about it guys, I you had a fully upgraded 3rd teir weapon with holy/positive all the way AND had a full time DC35 diruption option it would be severly overpowered. Almost EVERY time the greater disruption goes off it disrupts. It may only be 3% or so but it always lands. Same with the Disruption Guard on the items. Maybe they should have named it Greater every-now-and-then Dispuption but it is still Greater due to the crazy high DC of it. i have a fully upgraded Khopesh and after seeing the damage string on a 15d6 crit I just couldnt get upset about the fact that it doesnt disrupt on every hit. And if you had carefully read the discription you would have understood that it wasnt an every hit type of effect like regular disruption.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/e...nShot00089.jpg


See. :)

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There certainly wasn't any screenies when I started building that weapon, and I didn't bother looking after I saw GREATER disruption. If it was Disruption Burst or Lesser Disruption, I would've gone for something completely different. I have a +3 Disruptor already, I don't need something that's worse than that when I already hit everything in the game on a 2 anyway :P

Just playing devils advocate...

What happens when an undead mobs fort save is higher than 14... say 15... and it rolls a 1 against disruption. Does it fail it's save because it rolled a 1, or does it make it's save because it's combined roll is a 16?

If it's the former, then Greater Disruption is simply a poor moniker. (Very much like the poor descriptions that DDO is full of.
If it's the latter, then Greater Disruption is better against higher level undead mobs because 1-3% of the time they will disrupt compared to 0%.

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Originally Posted by geoffhanna

How about "Greater Disruption Guard"?

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Well, it sure is greater than all the other disruption guards out there.

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Originally Posted by Riggs

Indeed.

Oh wait...your saying that the 3% chance, which is guarenteed...needs no roll so its better?

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No.

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Originally Posted by BlueLightBandit

Just playing devils advocate...

What happens when an undead mobs fort save is higher than 14... say 15... and it rolls a 1 against disruption. Does it fail it's save because it rolled a 1, or does it make it's save because it's combined roll is a 16?

If it's the former, then Greater Disruption is simply a poor moniker. (Very much like the poor descriptions that DDO is full of.
If it's the latter, then Greater Disruption is better against higher level undead mobs because 1-3% of the time they will disrupt compared to 0%.

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Rolling a one on a save is always a fail... It's DnD core, your Fort, Reflex and Will could be in the stratosphere a roll of one shall be always a fail, if not then it's not DnD.

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Originally Posted by BlueLightBandit

Just playing devils advocate...

What happens when an undead mobs fort save is higher than 14... say 15... and it rolls a 1 against disruption. Does it fail it's save because it rolled a 1, or does it make it's save because it's combined roll is a 16?

If it's the former, then Greater Disruption is simply a poor moniker. (Very much like the poor descriptions that DDO is full of.
If it's the latter, then Greater Disruption is better against higher level undead mobs because 1-3% of the time they will disrupt compared to 0%.

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There is only 1 class currently in the books that breaks this mold of 1 is always a failure... that's the Knight which is not implemented... and its a HIGH level ability.

otherwise in DnD a 1 on an Attack or Save is a failure

Aesop

But even if normal disruption is 5% for the roll of 1 on the save, you're also assuming that you never miss. Factor in the miss percentage and things start to swing in favor of the greater disruption on higher ac mobs. And any number crunching assumes the "1-3%" is correct and not skewed by the 'watched pot never boils' syndrome.

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Originally Posted by Grond

Factor in the miss percentage and things start to swing in favor of the greater disruption on higher ac mobs.

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No it doesn't.

Disruption is auto-kill on 5% of undead creatures that are hit with the weapon with a chance to kill on more of those hits.

Greater Disruption is auto-kill on 1-3% of undead creatures that are hit with the weapon.

Both things are only happening on the hits. How often you hit and how often you miss is irrelevant when comparing the two. Yes, they'll both be more powerful in the hands of someone who hits more often than in the hands of someone who hits less frequently. But for a given person, Disruption is always more powerful than Greater Disruption.

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Originally Posted by Grond

But even if normal disruption is 5% for the roll of 1 on the save, you're also assuming that you never miss. Factor in the miss percentage and things start to swing in favor of the greater disruption on higher ac mobs. And any number crunching assumes the "1-3%" is correct and not skewed by the 'watched pot never boils' syndrome.

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Sure.. if you conveniently forget that the greater disruption has to actually hit as well.

Anyone have a +5 'regular' disruptor, that also does a huge amount of holy & good damage?

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Anyone have a +5 'regular' disruptor, that also does a huge amount of holy & good damage?

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How is that relevant to the conversation?

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Anyone have a +5 'regular' disruptor, that also does a huge amount of holy & good damage?

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we're not talking about how good the overall weapon is. the weapon does good damage.
we're saying that Greater Disruption is worse than Disruption.

now if the effect were titled "3% Greater Disruption" (IE more similar to weighted or tendon slice) it might promise higher %-on-hit chance in the future. As it currently is, we have to assume that Greater Disruption will ALWAYS be only 3% chance on hit. That makes it worse than normal Disruption by default.

The higher DC save is completely irrelevant if the chance to proc isn't greater than 5%.

Have we established whether Greater Disruption has a save or not? It's been stated both ways here.

If it does have a save, even up around the 35 DC of the other effects, then it becomes laughably bad. If it hits, undead could still save on a 20 (5%), with a chance to save more often depending on the individual will save - ultimately dropping the "1-3%" success rate vs normal disruption even lower.

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Originally Posted by Boulderun

Have we established whether Greater Disruption has a save or not? It's been stated both ways here.

If it does have a save, even up around the 35 DC of the other effects, then it becomes laughably bad. If it hits, undead could still save on a 20 (5%), with a chance to save more often depending on the individual will save - ultimately dropping the "1-3%" success rate vs normal disruption even lower.

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Wait? are you telling me ... the options are this.

Beat the undead to death via shear strength + 5 + 2d6 (Holy) +1d6 (Good) - attributes on a +5 Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Khopesh of Positive Energy (the crits do not come into play since undead do not crit) and we also have possible disruption chance every 33.3 swings on average with a possible chance for that disruption to happen every 20 swings + (dc35 - will) - 5%?

... or to use a holy (2d6) of greater undead bane (3d6) to beat the thing to death - I've a nice +3 holy battleaxe of undead bane (2d6) + (2d6) I use in lue of my Khopeshes for non disruptable undead btw ... or use a straight +2 true law khopesh disruptor which will average kill outright every 20 swings no less...

By far and large it seems to me the +5 Supreme Tyrant Green Steel Khopesh of Positive Energy is not as good a weapon as some to use on undead, thus having the greater disruption on it does little in my mind. To me the power of that weapon is in the bursting and blasting and would never be my choice to use it on undead.

The on-crit effects (good burst, good blast) do fire against undead and other crit immune things - they just don't suffer the basic damage multiplier. Same as a plain old flaming burst weapon.

Still, the main point remains - "Greater" Disruption is lame without a save, and significantly worse with a save.

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Originally Posted by bobbryan2

How is that relevant to the conversation?

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How is it not? Because unless I'm mistaken, the third tier upgrade is not JUST the "Greater Disruption" effect.

I'm pretty sure the topic of this thread was that "greater disruption" is worse than "disruption".

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Originally Posted by Cinwulf

I'm pretty sure the topic of this thread was that "greater disruption" is worse than "disruption".

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The original post was complaining about crafting a "clearly inferior item."

To evaluate that claim, you kinda have to look at the complete set of effects - not just the "Greater Disruption" piece.

:shrug:

If people want to focus on the 'false advertising' part, fine. But that's not the [only] point made by the OP, or many others in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

How is it not? Because unless I'm mistaken, the third tier upgrade is not JUST the "Greater Disruption" effect.

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The third tier bonus is just Greater Disruption.

And it's not Greater than anything.

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

The third tier bonus is just Greater Disruption.

And it's not Greater than anything.

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Not according to the Crafting Planner I have. It says the applicable tier 3 upgrade is "Good Blast (+4D6 on a 20, must confirm Crit) and Greater Disruption."

Can't personally confirm that, but...

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

The original post was complaining about crafting a "clearly inferior item."

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the discussion has clearly been refined.

the positive+positive+positive bonus is Greater Disruption

the 3rd tier positive+dominion+material effect is Good Blast.

the two effects have nothing to do with each other, as I could craft many weapons that have one effect but not the other.

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Not according to the Crafting Planner I have. It says the applicable tier 3 upgrade is "Good Blast (+4D6 on a 20, must confirm Crit) and Greater Disruption."

Can't personally confirm that, but...

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you're correct, the t3 p-p-p upgrade is either good blast, Superior Devotion VI, +4Ac (insight), Cha +2 (exceptional), 30% Healing Amplification or Con +2 (exceptional) as well as greater disruption for a weapon

i was under the impression that greater disruption only activated on roll of 20, not a 3% chance per hit

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Not according to the Crafting Planner I have. It says the applicable tier 3 upgrade is "Good Blast (+4D6 on a 20, must confirm Crit) and Greater Disruption."

Can't personally confirm that, but...

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There is a third tier power which is Good Blast.

The +/+/+ bonus is just Greater Disruption.

You can make Good Blast items which are not Greater Disruption. You can make Greater Disruption items which are not Good Blast.

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Not according to the Crafting Planner I have. It says the applicable tier 3 upgrade is "Good Blast (+4D6 on a 20, must confirm Crit) and Greater Disruption."

Can't personally confirm that, but...

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Your crafter planner is missing the nuances of the fact that the two are relatively independant of each other. You can make greater disruption without the good blast, and you can make good blast without getting greater disruption.

This discussion is based on the fact that Greater Disruption is worse than disruption, no matter how much you would try to cloud the issue by saying... 'yeah well, the other attributes are nice to.'

The fact of that matter is that you could make a greater disruption kama that only had improved devotion VI, greater devotion VI, and (presumably) superior devotion VI on it.

Now... tell me how awesome greater disruption is on that weapon.

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Originally Posted by Laith

the discussion has clearly been refined.

the positive+positive+positive bonus is Greater Disruption

the 3rd tier positive+dominion+material effect is Good Blast.

the two effects have nothing to do with each other, as I could craft many weapons that have one effect but not the other.

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Sorry, I missed the memo regarding the "refined" topic of discussion in the thread. ;)

As for your points...

You can't choose Greater Disruption by itself. It is grouped with other effects. So to evaluate the worth (Ie, whether in the OP's words it creates a "clearly inferior item" you have to look at the other effects.

I'd guess the vast majority of folks that are building a weapon that will have the Greater Disruption effect will be getting the Good Blast/GD effect at third tier. That's appears to be what the OP is complaining about.

If not, then you can also choose +2 to Wisdom or Charisma, 30% Healing Applification, +4 AC or Sup. Devotion 6. All kinda nice effects, although on a weapon not so much (other than maybe for a cleric).

Wow aren't we all talking past each other.

We all agree that it is impossible to perform a third tier upgrade that is JUST Greater Disruption without any other effect. Right?

Ok then, so let's evaluate it compared to the other "extra effects." Not compared to regular disruption effect.

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Wow aren't we all talking past each other.

We all agree that it is impossible to perform a third tier upgrade that is JUST Greater Disruption without any other effect. Right?

Ok then, so let's evaluate it compared to the other "extra effects." Not compared to regular disruption effect.

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And you can start a new thread comparing greater disruption with Incineration or the like. But I think it's a valid point that Greater disruption is worse than regular disruption. Your entire tangent that Greater Disruption is balanced within the bonuses of the raid crafting loot system is completely irrelevant to the conversation that's going on.

I 'would' add that I think things like Lightning Strike and Incineration are HUGELY more effective than Greater Disruption, but that isn't even the point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

We all agree that it is impossible to perform a third tier upgrade that is JUST Greater Disruption without any other effect. Right?

Ok then, so let's evaluate it compared to the other "extra effects." Not compared to regular disruption effect

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and you think creating a brand new effect called "Greater Disruption" and making it statistically inferior to "Disruption" is a balancer?

It's fine to make an effect that's less than disruption and consider it "balancing". But if you're going to make it weaker, don't go and call it Greater. As it currently stands, it appears that someone at turbine doesn't have a basic handle on how saves and DCs work (or at least missed this one).

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Originally Posted by Laith

and you think creating a brand new effect called "Greater Disruption" and making it statistically inferior to "Disruption" is the solution?

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As I said, I could care less about the description/'false advertising' issue. If someone wants to complain about that, fine. More power to you. Not a biggie for me.

But claiming that a particular Tier three upgrade is useless or "clearly inferior" by only looking at one of the two effects seems kinda silly.

And on that note...

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

As I said, I could care less about the description/'false advertising' issue. If someone wants to complain about that, fine. More power to you. Not a biggie for me.

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i would have to assume, by rereading the OP, that this is EXACTLY what the OP had in mind.

the OP had aimed to make a weapon that was better at disrupting than her Disrupton weapon.
the OP assumed an effect titled "Greater Disruption" would do just that.
the OP was mistaken.
the OP quickly realized that the weapon created was, infact, inferior to her normal Disruption weapon for her purposes.

as a matter of fact, if Greater Disruption WAS better than Disruption, i'd be willing to bet that very few would bother putting MDP-holy damage effects on them. Who cares about the damage done by an insta-kill weapon?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laith

and you think creating a brand new effect called "Greater Disruption" and making it statistically inferior to "Disruption" is a balancer?

It's fine to make an effect that's less than disruption and consider it "balancing". But if you're going to make it weaker, don't go and call it Greater. As it currently stands, it appears that someone at turbine doesn't have a basic handle on how saves and DCs work (or at least missed this one).

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/nod, that is the topic of the thread as I understand it from the OP.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Ok then, so let's evaluate it compared to the other "extra effects." Not compared to regular disruption effect.

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Andah already did that, on page 1.

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Originally Posted by Andah

Say for instance I go Fire-Fire-Fire instead, I'll have comparable DPS, but I will be able to utilize that DPS against any enemy.

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

Andah already did that, on page 1.

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Well, given the prevalence of resistance and immunity to fire, I don't think a fire line weapon would be as usable as a good/holy weapon.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laith

i would have to assume, by rereading the OP, that this is EXACTLY what the OP had in mind.

the OP had aimed to make a weapon that was better at disrupting than her Disrupton weapon.
the OP assumed an effect titled "Greater Disruption" would do just that.
the OP was mistaken.
the OP quickly realized that the weapon created was, infact, inferior to her normal Disruption weapon for her purposes.

as a matter of fact, if Greater Disruption WAS better than Disruption, i'd be willing to bet that very few would bother putting MDP-holy damage effects on them. Who cares about the damage done by an insta-kill weapon?

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Unless her purposes were something other than killing undead (and in fact, most other enemies in the game) that is not the case. The OP's weapon is far superior at killing undead (especially the high save ones) compared to any disruptor available in the game. With the DPS and the (low percentage) auto kill combo, the Tier Three weapon is going to be superior.

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Unless her purposes were something other than killing undead

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did you read anything but the last 3 words of the OP? Her purposes for crafting the item were crystal clear.

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So much to my (short-lived) glee I finally got my green steel weapon up to tier three this evening. I went Positive+Positive+Positive hoping that my weapon would become a disruptor at the end as was said in the spreadsheet on crafting.

When I hear something called 'Greater' I usually assume it's better than the regular version. In the case of Greater Disruption, this is a false statement.

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nite folks.

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Well, given the prevalence of resistance and immunity to fire, I don't think a fire line weapon would be as usable as a good/holy weapon.

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We're not talking the whole weapon here, we're talking the third tier bonus. (Or at least that was what you suggested we do.)

Compare Greater Disruption vs. Incineration. Even including the prevalence of resistance and immunity to fire, Incineration will affect more enemies.

Not to mention that you can also do Water/Water/Water to get cold damage and crushing wave (which affects everything).

Or any of the the para or quasi elements.

Greater Disruption is one of the least powerful third tier bonus effects, plain and simple.

On top of the fact that it's less powerful that normal Disruption.

Incineration is probably a better killer of mummies and frostmarrow skellingtons, too.

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

Greater Disruption is one of the least powerful third tier bonus effects, plain and simple.

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It's fine for it to be less powerful than the others, since you get it by going Holy+Good Burst+Good Blast, which is more powerful than the other possible weapon combos.

But the present design of Greater Disruption is not a good one.

Also, folks. The Greater Disruption is not garunteed 1-3% of the time. It procs 1-3%. 5% of the time it procs, the opponent will roll a 20 and save. Also the DC is 34, meaning the opponent needs a will save of 15 or higher for the chance of it saving to go up. Yes this is a high DC, but it is not garunteed.

I have one of these and have had undead in the orchard save against it. I ran right out there as soon as I made mine and realized what I'd made. I was let down as well. I still use this weapon and will continue to use it until I can deconstruct it or can make a second MinneralII sword. At which point I will use dual MinIIs or disruptors. I will not be using my greater disruption sword 3 months from today as it stands.

Taking everything on the weapon that isn't "Greater Disruption" is like trying to put a door in a wall without a hole... you're missing a good part of the point of the door.

Greater Disruption by itself is not available without anything else, so it cannot be compared to "regular" disruption accurately.

Making the argument "If I had a +1 heavy mace of disruption and a +1 heavy mace of greater disruption..." is moot because a +1 heavy mace of greater disruption simply doesn't exist.

Is it a bad description? Probably... then again, there are a hundred other things in DDO that are poorly described as well... why would anyone expect differently?

Was the description in the OP's spreadsheet bad? Yes, definitely... then again, we're still just discovering many things about crafting... so making assumptions about weapon abilities at this point in the game is silly.

The only real question is whether or not it's worth putting on an item... and that's TOTALLY up to the person crafting it, regardless of what the forum "experts" say about it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Laith

did you read anything but the last 3 words of the OP? Her purposes for crafting the item were crystal clear.



nite folks.

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Too bad the crafted weapons aren't tradeable. I've got a ton of disruptors I'd be happy to trade for the OP's inferior weapon.

Disruptors are good because they kill undead. The OP's third tier upgraded weapon is better at killing undead (and a ton of other stuff) than any disruptor in the game.

Period. And goodnight. ;)

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Originally Posted by DesertBlue

Also, folks. The Greater Disruption is not garunteed 1-3% of the time. It procs 1-3%. 5% of the time it procs, the opponent will roll a 20 and save. Also the DC is 34, meaning the opponent needs a will save of 15 or higher for the chance of it saving to go up. Yes this is a high DC, but it is not garunteed.

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Since you have one, I'll ask...

Have you actually tested it to determine this (now widely accepted) 1-3% figure?

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Vhlad/Sair

No.

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Sorry, I misread your post then. I thought the sarcasm was being aimed at the wrong side of the argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Since you have one, I'll ask...

Have you actually tested it to determine this (now widely accepted) 1-3% figure?

Thanks.

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No I have not. The "widely accepted number" seemed to fit my experience, but I would definitely not garuntee it as accurate. For me to test it and feel good about my results I'd want at least a thousand hits. I love loot way too much to dedicate that sort of time and energy. The whole time I was testing Id be thinking about the decline in my CPH.

What is real, is 2 people in this thread have made this weapon and both were dissapointed with the results.

Talcyndl, you seem to be championing this crafting line. Have you personally made one for one of your characters?

Don't get me wrong it is not a bad weapon, but had I known then what I know now I would have made something different to begin with. "Period. And goodnight."

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Originally Posted by DesertBlue

Talcyndl, you seem to be championing this crafting line. Have you personally made one for one of your characters?

Don't get me wrong it is not a bad weapon, but had I known then what I know now I would have made something different to begin with. "Period. And goodnight."

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Not particularly "championing" it. Just think the criticism is overblown - as it often is when a particular item isn't as uber as imaginable.

The only item I've crafted is a set of +200sp and +6 Wis (etc.) goggles for my cleric.

I'm thinking about the Acid line on a shortsword for my rogue. For a rogue I think the earth elemental is a nice counterpart since (I assume) you get sneak attack on grabbed enemies.

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Not particularly "championing" it. Just think the criticism is overblown - as it often is when a particular item isn't as uber as imaginable.

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So you wouldn't be irritated with spending 4 months farming items in a raid you would rather not do, the result of which being a Transmuting Masterwork Dagger of The Holy Flame(-1 to hit, Good damage)?

Honestly, we have better items to put on.

We also have better things to waste our time on.


As stated earlier, Greater Disruption needs to be an autodisrupt 100% of the time when a person gets hit, or a DC35+ Disruption effect on a weapon(or comparable, like Disrupt(no save) on a Critical Hit).

Nothing less will suffice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Talcyndl

Not particularly "championing" it. Just think the criticism is overblown - as it often is when a particular item isn't as uber as imaginable.

The only item I've crafted is a set of +200sp and +6 Wis (etc.) goggles for my cleric.

I'm thinking about the Acid line on a shortsword for my rogue. For a rogue I think the earth elemental is a nice counterpart since (I assume) you get sneak attack on grabbed enemies.

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You might want to research Radiance II effect since that causes blindness (no save) on critical hits that lasts about 15 seconds and allows sneak attack, while Earth Grab is a % proc.

Also, seriously, an effect that is labeled "Greater" should be better then original. If you got a weapon that gives +9 CHA that is a "Greater Disruption" weapon it certainly won't act better then a regular Disruption effect. Therefore, as an undead destroying weapon for a Paladin it is not better then a regular Disruptor, hence not "Greater".

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Originally Posted by GlassCannon

Nothing less will suffice.

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Prepare to be disappointed. There's no way such an item will be introduced into the game.

:shrug:

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Originally Posted by Alavatar

You might want to research Radiance II effect since that causes blindness (no save) on critical hits that lasts about 15 seconds and allows sneak attack, while Earth Grab is a % proc.

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Thanks.

I've been holding off making stuff until all the effects are fully understood. And I thank the OP for being on the bleeding edge. :)

Areed I'd research radiance II for a rogue that weapon is awesome for backstab