Suggestion to Fix Beholders

As everyone knows, Beholders are very frustrating to fight, as they have a nasty tendency to first dispel all your buffs, then hit you with everything they've got while you're vulnerable. I've got a few ideas that would fix beholders, and none of them would require new technology on the developer's part - it would just require applying them to beholders.

1. Beholder's Antimagic Field dispelling buffs.

SRD Link on Antimagic

Antimagic is supposed to suppress, not dispel it. The technology to suppress buffs already exists with the Globe of Invulnerability spell.

In this case, the developers would simply have to apply the same technology to a beholder's antimagic - as long as a character has the "Antimagic Field" effect on, his buffs are suppressed, but when the field wears off, the buffs return.

2. Beholder's Rays striking a character under the effects of Antimagic.

A Beholder should not be able to strike a character under the effects of Antimagic - they're in the field, so spells, spell-like abilities (such as the beholder's rays) and supernatural abilities should be suppressed. The technology to make a character immune specifically to a Beholder's spells exists via the Beholder Optic Nerve.

In this case, the developers would simply need to make a Beholder's Antimagic Field "buff" provide immunity to a beholder's rays.

Thoughts? These are just rough ideas, but it would make fighting Beholders less of a frustrating experience. Keep in mind I am not whining because I think beholders are too hard, as beholder-hunting with my cleric in von2 and 3 is a favorite pastime of mine, but I think these changes would make beholders a much better foe - you won't feel like you're being cheated every time you fight them.

Someone has mentioned that in mod 5 one of the named beholders is behavingin this fashion, this could be a fix for all beholders?

Please, the correct terms are spay or neuter. I do agree we have to keep them from breeding out of control though. Next thing you know, they will be digging through our garbage cans, scaring the pet beholders we keep in the house, and running in packs through the streets of Stormreach :p

Signed on 100%, Bizbag.

I dont have any trouble "fixing" beholders with a big sword or axe as they are right now and believe that many people would be in the same boat.

Giving the beholders currently in game at least 3 times the HP they have now so a decent melee guy cant cut one down in 3 seconds would be a more suitable fix.
Please stop asking for this very easy game to be made easier.

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Originally Posted by Crabo

I dont have any trouble "fixing" beholders with a big sword or axe as they are right now and believe that many people would be in the same boat.

Giving the beholders currently in game at least 3 times the HP they have now so a decent melee guy cant cut one down in 3 seconds would be a more suitable fix.
Please stop asking for this very easy game to be made easier.

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It isn't a matter of "making easier," it's a matter of "beholders are currently functioning 100% differently than they do in PnP."

If a beholder wants to be able to use its eye beams, it has to pluck out its antimagic field eye first.

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Originally Posted by Freeman

Please, the correct terms are spay or neuter. I do agree we have to keep them from breeding out of control though. Next thing you know, they will be digging through our garbage cans, scaring the pet beholders we keep in the house, and running in packs through the streets of Stormreach :p

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/giggles like a little warforged schoolgirl

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Originally Posted by Crabo

I dont have any trouble "fixing" beholders with a big sword or axe as they are right now and believe that many people would be in the same boat.

Giving the beholders currently in game at least 3 times the HP they have now so a decent melee guy cant cut one down in 3 seconds would be a more suitable fix.
Please stop asking for this very easy game to be made easier.

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Of course, even the toughest melee guy doesn't last long when they've been hit with 9 negative levels followed by a few disintegrates(With some failed saves due to massive negative level penalties).

You also have to consider where you fight beholders. Currently, most of them are in quests that are level 10 or 12. A level 14 character with decent equipment won't have a huge problem with them. But at the lower levels, they can be nasty. The beholder room in VON3 can be a nightmare for characters in the level 9 range. This fix would at least keep you from losing all of your buffs every time one looked at you. It wouldn't really make fighting them any easier.

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Originally Posted by Ghoste

/giggles like a little warforged schoolgirl

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Great, now I have to get that image out of my head. Catholic schoolgirl outfits and warforged don't mix very well. And why did I have to add ponytails?

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Originally Posted by Tanka

It isn't a matter of "making easier," it's a matter of "beholders are currently functioning 100% differently than they do in PnP."

If a beholder wants to be able to use its eye beams, it has to pluck out its antimagic field eye first.

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Forgive me for misunderstanding. I for one do not feel i am cheated ANY time i fight a beholder let alone every time.
I can give you a list of things that are "currently functioning 100% differently than they do in PnP." Do you suggest all these things are fixed too ?
This isnt PnP , it never was, and it never will be.

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Originally Posted by Bizbag

As everyone knows, Beholders are very frustrating to fight....

...but I think these changes would make beholders a much better foe - you won't feel like you're being cheated every time you fight them.

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Forgive me for misunderstanding. I for one do not feel i am cheated ANY time i fight a beholder let alone every time.
I can give you a list of things that are "currently functioning 100% differently than they do in PnP." Do you suggest all these things are fixed too ?
This isnt PnP , it never was, and it never will be.

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Some things aren't going to translate at all from PnP to MMO. Of those that should transition, they should make every effort to make that translation.

This is one of those situations.

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Originally Posted by Freeman

Of course, even the toughest melee guy doesn't last long when they've been hit with 9 negative levels followed by a few disintegrates(With some failed saves due to massive negative level penalties).

You also have to consider where you fight beholders. Currently, most of them are in quests that are level 10 or 12. A level 14 character with decent equipment won't have a huge problem with them. But at the lower levels, they can be nasty. The beholder room in VON3 can be a nightmare for characters in the level 9 range. This fix would at least keep you from losing all of your buffs every time one looked at you. It wouldn't really make fighting them any easier.

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Some of us used to kill those Von3 beholders on elite when the level cap was 10. Oh...and they could shoot their rays through walls back then. Yea. lets get the devs right onto it...priority issue.

I am fairly sure that your second issue has been fixed on Risia. I haven't ran against other beholders yet, but the undead beholder in Ghosts of Perdition operates the correct way. His antimagic field is only active when he is not casting spells. and he can only cast spells when his antimagic field is inactive. I'm pretty certain thats how its supposed to function.

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Originally Posted by Tanka

Some things aren't going to translate at all from PnP to MMO. Of those that should transition, they should make every effort to make that translation.

This is one of those situations.

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I wonder who the guy is that actually decides if this is one of those situations or not. Right now...i only know who it isnt.

Still, if you get blasted by 3 disintegrates in a row by a beholder while inside its antimagic field, i think we could call a foul on the beholders half. i'd rather they work like they should, meaning if he can use his rays, i should beable to cast spells.

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Originally Posted by Tenkari Rozahas

Still, if you get blasted by 3 disintegrates in a row by a beholder while inside its antimagic field, i think we could call a foul on the beholders half. i'd rather they work like they should, meaning if he can use his rays, i should beable to cast spells.

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I understand what you are saying and sure it would be nice to keep my buffs after encounters with beholders but it just doesnt seem to accomplish alot by making the change. As it stands now, the range on your spells is just slightly longer than the range of his antimagic field, at least it is on a sorc without enlarge. Try standing a little further away from them, or use tactics and ask your melees to turn the beholder so it isnt facing you. You can cast spells, you just have to stand in a different spot to do so.

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Originally Posted by ThEndor

I am fairly sure that your second issue has been fixed on Risia. I haven't ran against other beholders yet, but the undead beholder in Ghosts of Perdition operates the correct way. His antimagic field is only active when he is not casting spells. and he can only cast spells when his antimagic field is inactive. I'm pretty certain thats how its supposed to function.

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I haven't been able to test it on Risia myself, but does he not cast at all when his antimagic is up, or does he simply not cast on people he Antimagic's?

I am not opposed to Beholders using their antimagic and rays at the same time (they're quite intelligent enough to use both their powers effectively, but separately), but I am opposed to being hit by Disintegrate when I cannot cast it back.

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Originally Posted by Crabo

I wonder who the guy is that actually decides if this is one of those situations or not. Right now...i only know who it isnt.

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None of us make the decision, but it's just kind of a judgement call. There's no practical reason this rule couldn't be translated into an MMO; nothing to do with the live-action aspect or the fast pace, etc. prevents beholders from supressing, not dispelling buffs.

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Originally Posted by Crabo

I understand what you are saying and sure it would be nice to keep my buffs after encounters with beholders but it just doesnt seem to accomplish alot by making the change. As it stands now, the range on your spells is just slightly longer than the range of his antimagic field, at least it is on a sorc without enlarge. Try standing a little further away from them, or use tactics and ask your melees to turn the beholder so it isnt facing you. You can cast spells, you just have to stand in a different spot to do so.

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Its hard to do that when your in a small corridor and some idiot is bringing 3 beholders your way when your the parties cleric in VoN3, and keeps coming no matter no many times you yell "STOP COMING FORWARD!" then you get blasted to smithereens before the melee guy figures out what he did wrong. and for your information, i was running like hell from them, i got halfway from the locked door to the shrine before they offed me, i couldnt heal myself so i was boned since they couldnt get aggro off me.

Beholder antimagic should have been fixed as soon as the tech to do so (see Globes of Invulnerability) was introduced, the same as Prot. Energy and Stoneskin were fixed as soon as the tech to track damage absorbed by buffs was introduced.

Being unable to eye-ray those in the antimagic cone would probably gimp beholders too much in the context of this game. The dispelling, however, just makes them huge aggravations, not challenges.

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Originally Posted by Tenkari Rozahas

Its hard to do that when your in a small corridor and some idiot is bringing 3 beholders your way when your the parties cleric in VoN3, and keeps coming no matter no many times you yell "STOP COMING FORWARD!" then you get blasted to smithereens before the melee guy figures out what he did wrong. and for your information, i was running like hell from them, i got halfway from the locked door to the shrine before they offed me, i couldnt heal myself so i was boned since they couldnt get aggro off me.

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Oh i understand now. We want Turbine to nerf beholders because the players suck.
I fully support the change now after thinking it through.

I really think the spell suppression rather than dispelling is a change that needs to be made. My beef with beholders isn't that they're too tough, but that every time I fight them I have to recast all my buffs. We know its possible in DDO to surpress spells rather than dispel them from the Globes of Invulnerability mages can cast. This should be applied to beholders' antimagic cones.

And yes, according to PnP the eyebeams shouldn't function in the antimagic cone either, but I'm not sure that beholders need this type of nerf done to them. They're not really that hard, just annoying, and making them easier may or may not be the right move. I'm not sure if anything needs to be done about them firing into antimagic.

Remove them from the game.

Beholders are not broken; they are challenging.

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Oh i understand now. We want Turbine to nerf beholders because the players suck.
I fully support the change now after thinking it through.

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Crabo, if the change goes through as I suggested it, Beholders would indeed be nerfed somewhat. If you don't like that idea, that's totally fine.

However, a few have suggested that problem 1 be fixed while leaving problem 2 alone. In this case, beholders really wouldn't be nerfed at all. After all, as long as you're fighting the beholder, your buffs are gone as you're in his Antimagic cone. The only change is that after the fight's over, and the beholder's dead, you get your buffs back.

Would that seem more acceptable?

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Originally Posted by In Like Flynn

Beholders are not broken; they are challenging.

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That one aspect of Beholders, anti-magic field and magic/rays, is broken. Beholders are otherwise fun and challenging.

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Originally Posted by Bizbag

I haven't been able to test it on Risia myself, but does he not cast at all when his antimagic is up, or does he simply not cast on people he Antimagic's?

I am not opposed to Beholders using their antimagic and rays at the same time (they're quite intelligent enough to use both their powers effectively, but separately), but I am opposed to being hit by Disintegrate when I cannot cast it back.

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He does not cast at all when his antimagic is active.

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Originally Posted by Bizbag

Crabo, if the change goes through as I suggested it, Beholders would indeed be nerfed somewhat. If you don't like that idea, that's totally fine.

However, a few have suggested that problem 1 be fixed while leaving problem 2 alone. In this case, beholders really wouldn't be nerfed at all. After all, as long as you're fighting the beholder, your buffs are gone as you're in his Antimagic cone. The only change is that after the fight's over, and the beholder's dead, you get your buffs back.

Would that seem more acceptable?

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Yes, absolutely. I love that there is a few enemies we face in this game that put an element of fear inside people and would hate to see that part of the game die. This is my main reason for posting here at all.

The suggestion you just made though is the best of both worlds and one would have to be merely nitpicking to complain about it.

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Originally Posted by ThEndor

He does not cast at all when his antimagic is active.

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Ah, that I don't like. Shouldn't he be able to cast behind him and to the side, where his antimagic cone isn't active?

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Please stop asking for this very easy game to be made easier.

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I agree... instead lets take away everyone's over-inflated abilities(from enhancements) and toys. Then you can beat down the Beholder with a +2 Greataxe , 110-130 HPs, and no Deathblock, and announce how Beholders do not need to be fixed. Lets not forget you won't have a Cleric with a pocket full of Heal scrolls either. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bizbag

Ah, that I don't like. Shouldn't he be able to cast behind him and to the side, where his antimagic cone isn't active?

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It seems to be more of a field than a cone.

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Originally Posted by Tanka

It seems to be more of a field than a cone.

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Ok, sure, but in any case, it doesn't extend to behind the beholder, so he should theoretically be able to cast behind himself even when Antimagic is up.

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Originally Posted by Bizbag

Ok, sure, but in any case, it doesn't extend to behind the beholder, so he should theoretically be able to cast behind himself even when Antimagic is up.

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Field, in this case, usually means "around the beholder" and not "in a field in front of the beholder."

Which is unfortunate.

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Some of us used to kill those Von3 beholders on elite when the level cap was 10. Oh...and they could shoot their rays through walls back then. Yea. lets get the devs right onto it...priority issue.

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Yes, I ran VON3 on elite back when the cap was 10 also. If you read my post, I said it "can" be a nightmare, not "is". No one mentioned anything about making it a top priority issue, but that doesn't mean there's no reason to ever bring it up. There have been several things that were working as the Devs intended at first, then changed later, like Evasion. There are many things that I'd like to see changed, such as the Perform skill for bards. They may not be high priorities, but the same can be said for the majority of the WDA.

The only real bad thing about Beholders in my opinion is how they can spam their eye beams. Other than that they are manageable for the most part unless you and your group has a bad day.

in risia, the beholder still dispells you

if the eye isnt suppose to dispell you, but instead just tempt-lose buffs, then it should all still be fun and good

losing buffs is a pain, because it waste sps, ive seen people run pop and we clear the hallway, and buff up for the rooms, and the leader goes, ok, top to bottom!!!!!, everyone loses there buffs on the spot..........

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Originally Posted by jaitee

losing buffs is a pain, because it waste sps, ive seen people run pop and we clear the hallway, and buff up for the rooms, and the leader goes, ok, top to bottom!!!!!, everyone loses there buffs on the spot..........

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That's just poor communication, as most groups run bottom to top. So if they run different and are running a PUG, they should specify before everyone is in the zone.

While we are fixing beholders, lets make sure that our weapons function they way they do in PnP when in an antimagic field.

This means all your uber weapons become masterwork, as thier magical abilities do not funtion in an antimagic field :)

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Originally Posted by Gelandor

While we are fixing beholders, lets make sure that our weapons function they way they do in PnP when in an antimagic field.

This means all your uber weapons become masterwork, as thier magical abilities do not funtion in an antimagic field :)

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Agreed, along with Armor and other items like that +5 Ogre Power Bracers and +4 Resistance Cloak. :)

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Some of us used to kill those Von3 beholders on elite when the level cap was 10. Oh...and they could shoot their rays through walls back then. Yea. lets get the devs right onto it...priority issue.

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I was just thinking the same thing. The only beholder fight in the game I know of which can go astray is the xorian room of pop if the person on the mind flayers slips up or has a difficult time. Von 3 played at level the em's have solo'd it at appropriate level and it was more about building a survivable toon to do it and strategy at that level, then after a level or two it's not even a challenge anymore. Anyway the point is every monster in the game is easy when you know it's weaknesses and the silly ai response, every dungeon is east when you know the lay of the land.

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Originally Posted by Mercules

Agreed, along with Armor and other items like that +5 Ogre Power Bracers and +4 Resistance Cloak. :)

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This is a change I would happily get behind.

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Originally Posted by Dingo123

This is a change I would happily get behind.

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Huh? Clerics unlimited SPs(never going to live that one down), XP potions(um... what?), and true to PnP rules? Remember Sesame Street? "One of these things is not like the other... one of these things just doesn't belong..."

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Originally Posted by Mercules

Agreed, along with Armor and other items like that +5 Ogre Power Bracers and +4 Resistance Cloak. :)

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And Silver Flame trinket .. and Beholder Optics .. :eek:

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Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes

And Silver Flame trinket .. and Beholder Optics .. :eek:

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What? Beholders become scary when PnP rules are actually followed in total? No... way!:D

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Originally Posted by Crabo

I understand what you are saying and sure it would be nice to keep my buffs after encounters with beholders but it just doesnt seem to accomplish alot by making the change. As it stands now, the range on your spells is just slightly longer than the range of his antimagic field, at least it is on a sorc without enlarge. Try standing a little further away from them, or use tactics and ask your melees to turn the beholder so it isnt facing you. You can cast spells, you just have to stand in a different spot to do so.

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Most people don't understand tactics (except for the one named "Charge")
i just two manned Invaders with my Wiz and a Rgr. My Wiz died four times, but it wasn't due to the beholders......tactics go a long way in some of these quests.......and If i had been slightly more familiar with the quest, I think I could have done it without dying.....learned a little as we went along.

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Originally Posted by Mercules

What? Beholders become scary when PnP rules are actually followed in total? No... way!:D

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Well if I understand the PnP description .. if a Beholder cannot suppress magic and beam someone at the same time, then they sound like they would be kind of trivial in DDO given the massive number of buffs we can apply.

Sounds like they would have to structure the encounters differently, i.e. include lots of dangerous melee cohorts to attack those in the anti-magic field.

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Originally Posted by Freeman

Yes, I ran VON3 on elite back when the cap was 10 also. If you read my post, I said it "can" be a nightmare, not "is". No one mentioned anything about making it a top priority issue, but that doesn't mean there's no reason to ever bring it up. There have been several things that were working as the Devs intended at first, then changed later, like Evasion. There are many things that I'd like to see changed, such as the Perform skill for bards. They may not be high priorities, but the same can be said for the majority of the WDA.

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Back when the lvl cap was 10, you just used enlarge and cloudkill.....not so tuff.
It's tougher now, except that most people doing it are lvl 14 and rerunning it for the 50th time.

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Originally Posted by Talon Moonshadow

Back when the lvl cap was 10, you just used enlarge and cloudkill.....not so tuff.
It's tougher now, except that most people doing it are lvl 14 and rerunning it for the 50th time.

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Not everyone used cloudkill to do every quest.

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Originally Posted by Kaboth

The only real bad thing about Beholders in my opinion is how they can spam their eye beams. Other than that they are manageable for the most part unless you and your group has a bad day.

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yeah...this bothers me.....not only on beholders.....the monsters need to play by the same rules we do.......I can't cast multiple disintegrates, so neither should they.....I also can't hit someone three times in one attack animation like some creatures in this game can too......and now some of them can run faster than us with haste.....not sure what the reasoning for that is. Monsters should not cheat the rules....and yes I know there has to be a way to make things challenging, but just some minor AI tweaks (minor in theory anyway) could go a long way.....without cheating.
My favorite is Cloudkill agro......the AI should be "Get out of the deadly cloud that is killing you!" Not be granted immediate insight as to where and who just cast this cloud on you so you can go down the hall around the corner and wack on him.
But I guess this is getting off-topic.

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Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes

Well if I understand the PnP description .. if a Beholder cannot suppress magic and beam someone at the same time, then they sound like they would be kind of trivial in DDO given the massive number of buffs we can apply.

Sounds like they would have to structure the encounters differently, i.e. include lots of dangerous melee cohorts to attack those in the anti-magic field.

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Beholders in D&D can melee and have the jaws for it. They can turn their cone to the side for a moment and shoot a beam or three at you, yes our buffs come back on, but a Beholder with some pet Rust Monsters or a tribe of orc/bugbears following them can ruin your day, just as you supposed. Anyone stepping outside the anti-magic cone is going to get beamed and anyone in is likely to get bitten once the Beholder is close enough. A ranged combat expert backed up by a caster would be the best combo for taking out a Beholder. Cone on them keeps the caster from affecting him, but the ranged hurts him. Move the cone to attack the ranged with a beam and the Caster gets a shot.

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Originally Posted by Bizbag

As everyone knows, Beholders are very frustrating to fight, as they have a nasty tendency to first dispel all your buffs, then hit you with everything they've got while you're vulnerable. I've got a few ideas that would fix beholders, and none of them would require new technology on the developer's part - it would just require applying them to beholders.

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Or we could just replace all the beholders in the game with runty kobolds. Of course those things could be nasty, so lets tie one arm behind their back and cut their hp in half.

Beholders are, well, beholders. They are SUPPOSED to be frustrating!

What I'd like to see is if a beholder turns me to stone, that their anti-magic beam removes it just like dispel magic can...

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Originally Posted by ebt-dnd

What I'd like to see is if a beholder turns me to stone, that their anti-magic beam removes it just like dispel magic can...

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It can.

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Oh i understand now. We want Turbine to nerf beholders because the players suck.
I fully support the change now after thinking it through.

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Be constructive or be quiet. I would rather run with a player that sucks but is willing to learn, than one who is spiteful and angry for no reason.

As it stands, the beholders abilities do not make sense, as they can both cast and prevent casting at the same time. I don't know if it's supression or dispelling, but it's annoying as all get out.

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Forgive me for misunderstanding. I for one do not feel i am cheated ANY time i fight a beholder let alone every time.
I can give you a list of things that are "currently functioning 100% differently than they do in PnP." Do you suggest all these things are fixed too ?
This isnt PnP , it never was, and it never will be.

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YES.

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Originally Posted by Bizbag

As everyone knows, Beholders are very frustrating to fight, as they have a nasty tendency to first dispel all your buffs, then hit you with everything they've got while you're vulnerable. I've got a few ideas that would fix beholders, and none of them would require new technology on the developer's part - it would just require applying them to beholders.

1. Beholder's Antimagic Field dispelling buffs.

SRD Link on Antimagic

Antimagic is supposed to suppress, not dispel it. The technology to suppress buffs already exists with the Globe of Invulnerability spell.

In this case, the developers would simply have to apply the same technology to a beholder's antimagic - as long as a character has the "Antimagic Field" effect on, his buffs are suppressed, but when the field wears off, the buffs return.

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I do not have the time to read through every post at the moment but I will say this.

I brought this up to a dev once and was told the reason they are a debuff and not surpress is because if they do a suppress (to bring it in line with rules) than your weapon/armor/items need to be similarly effected (as per the rules) and that would just plain suck.

So take your pick....debuff you or suppress ALL of your gear.

I'll take the debuff personally.:)

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Originally Posted by Talon Moonshadow

Back when the lvl cap was 10, you just used enlarge and cloudkill.....not so tuff.
It's tougher now, except that most people doing it are lvl 14 and rerunning it for the 50th time.

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Not everyone exploited cloudkill you know ?
The men would go in and deal with the beholders while the women gathered food for the long trip to the plane of night.

Its not tougher at all now. Now they cant shoot through walls. Now we have a thing called greater restore to remove multiple neg levels. Now we have beholder optic nerves, some of us multiple sets. All these things, plus probably some others i havent even thought about make encounters with beholders a joke. They should seriously think about making all those beholders in von3 have the same hp as the named one at the end. Then we are moving in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by BlueLightBandit

Be constructive or be quiet. I would rather run with a player that sucks but is willing to learn, than one who is spiteful and angry for no reason.

As it stands, the beholders abilities do not make sense, as they can both cast and prevent casting at the same time. I don't know if it's supression or dispelling, but it's annoying as all get out.

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Crabo has zero diplomacy so dont be expecting me to sugar coat it for you.
But as far as i am concerned that is probably the most constructive thing i have seen in the thread. Many players have already left the game through lack of challenge. Every day the quality of your average pug drops a little further. If no tactics are needed, no tactics are used, it saves time.

Bring back the need for tactics, dont make changes to the game to eliminate the need for tactics.

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Originally Posted by BlueLightBandit

As it stands, the beholders abilities do not make sense, as they can both cast and prevent casting at the same time. I don't know if it's supression or dispelling, but it's annoying as all get out.

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I don't see how. You get the fighters to run in, turn the beholder's big eye from the caster, IF your caster can get there before the fighters chew him to bits the beholder can be held, danced, PKed, FoDed, or whatever other goodies you have in store for him.

Of course from time to time, there is nothing more fun than spell resistance, deathblock, an anarchic burst weapon(s) and a good zerg!

Just remember the following:

Proper Preparation Prevents **** Poor Play

QUOTE=PhoenixFire31;1330715]I brought this up to a dev once and was told the reason they are a debuff and not surpress is because if they do a suppress (to bring it in line with rules) than your weapon/armor/items need to be similarly effected (as per the rules) and that would just plain suck.

So take your pick....debuff you or suppress ALL of your gear.

I'll take the debuff personally.:)[/QUOTE]

I'll take the suppress please :) That's what makes beholders so interesting...it looks at you and starts chewing and all you can do is smack it in the head with your plain 'ol sword.

...Until the mage now standing behind it hits it with a nasty dd spell....

Beholders in PnP are all strategy, here they are 90% luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arlith

I don't see how. You get the fighters to run in, turn the beholder's big eye from the caster, IF your caster can get there before the fighters chew him to bits the beholder can be held, danced, PKed, FoDed, or whatever other goodies you have in store for him.

Of course from time to time, there is nothing more fun than spell resistance, deathblock, an anarchic burst weapon(s) and a good zerg!

---

I think Arlith is on the right track I mean you haven't lived till you have seen a Feeblemind Beholder. Mind Fog or Feeblemind anyone? I was told it is pretty funny. FoD and PK are as effective as CK it is just a matter of what you have on board. So we have to put the buffs back on. Big mana drain an extra shrine would help in such cases. Why bother changing the Beholder. He is big and ugly and I for one like him that way.

Wizards should not be afraid of monsters becasue they are dead.
Azari

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mercules

Huh? Clerics unlimited SPs(never going to live that one down), XP potions(um... what?), and true to PnP rules? Remember Sesame Street? "One of these things is not like the other... one of these things just doesn't belong..."

---

You know, we're already playing fourth edition in many respects..

and in Fourth Edition... Clerics get free healing. =)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dingo123

You know, we're already playing fourth edition in many respects..

and in Fourth Edition... Clerics get free healing. =)

---

And it also will not be DnD, so who cares. 4.0 is Wizards way of profiting and ruining DnD like they did with Magic the Gathering.

Also I find it fascinating that in this whole thread everyone of the posters failed to mention that though a beholder can't eye ray you in it's anti-magic field, it can close it's eye at will to do so.

If anyone thinks that this game should not fit PnP when it can then please go play a game with a different name. DDO is a DnD game and should follow those rules as closely as possible unless there is programing issues or combat changes Ie. Mobility adding +4 to AC while Tumbling because there are no AoO. If you don't know hat an AoO is please read a book or spend some time on the SRD page. I find it funny that people who complain about changing things closer to PnP rules seem to know the least about the rules. Your opinion is only as valid as the facts you can back it up with. Or as I like to say, Opinions are like __holes, everyone has one and like __holes some are full of $H!T

who cares about DnD or PnP, this is DDO, DnD and PnP was like 50 years ago, and DDO is today......

honestly, does everyone think that everyone that plays DDO, plays because we read the book, act it out? or how ever you guys play PnP or DnD with a DM, what ever a DM stands for

FYI, i started playing DDO, because it was a online game my friend told me about, i dont know nothing about DnD, or PnP, nor do i care, or do i care that DDO should be like DnD

seriously people need to see that is this DDO, not some game from 30 years ago that people wont let go of, take a right corner instead of going 100 mphs at the ideal DnD compared to DDO

and realize this is todays DDO, its 2007, its not what it was when you guys played it anymore awhile back

it might follow outlines of DnD, but it is not DnD, just like the off brand food people buy, same thing as the brand named stuff, just a little different/and lower in quality

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaitee

who cares about DnD or PnP, this is DDO, DnD and PnP was like 50 years ago, and DDO is today......

honestly, does everyone think that everyone that plays DDO, plays because we read the book, act it out? or how ever you guys play PnP or DnD with a DM, what ever a DM stands for

FYI, i started playing DDO, because it was a online game my friend told me about, i dont know nothing about DnD, or PnP, nor do i care, or do i care that DDO should be like DnD

seriously people need to see that is this DDO, not some game from 30 years ago that people wont let go of, take a right corner instead of going 100 mphs at the ideal DnD compared to DDO

and realize this is todays DDO, its 2007, its not what it was when you guys played it anymore awhile back

it might follow outlines of DnD, but it is not DnD, just like the off brand food people buy, same thing as the brand named stuff, just a little different/and lower in quality

---

Calm down a bit. Look, when Turbine made this game they made a conscious decision to use DnD (Dungeons and Dragons) as the basis for it (rules, monsters, spells, ect.) In doing so they were targeting a specific group of people. Does this mean everyone playing DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) are going to be PnP (pencil and paper-hate that acronym) players? Heavens no.

That said, the devs do attempt to stay as close to the rules as possible....why? Because it is what this game is based off. Please don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise. If you are not familiar with said rule set there is the online SRD to help you learn. If you are not, then that is fine too, but don't complain about changes you will then know nothing about.

By the same token however, this is an MMO and not all the rules will work in an MMO world...concessions had to be made to make the game enjoyable.

Anyway back to the OP. I have know way of knowing why they cannot make the beholders shut their center eye. It is definitely a good point. If I had to guess I'd say that, programing wise, the anti-magic has nothing to do with his eye. It is probably coded to be an aura for beholders (much like a pallys aura.)

EDIT: BTW-DnD is a little over 30 years old and has undergone many changes of it's own since Gary Gygax (voice in Delara's /shudders) started it. In fact next year is v 4.0 (which is SO not needed.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dingo123

You know, we're already playing fourth edition in many respects..

and in Fourth Edition... Clerics get free healing. =)

---

Got a source on that?

The only "free healing" I saw was on a critical hit from a melee attack, and it wasn't specified whether that was an ability recieved by every Cleric, or certain Clerics, or an ability that they have to acquire.

So, no, Clerics don't get free healing like your terms. And we aren't playing 4.0. We're still using the 3.5 ruleset.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaitee

who cares about DnD or PnP, this is DDO, DnD and PnP was like 50 years ago, and DDO is today......

honestly, does everyone think that everyone that plays DDO, plays because we read the book, act it out? or how ever you guys play PnP or DnD with a DM, what ever a DM stands for

FYI, i started playing DDO, because it was a online game my friend told me about, i dont know nothing about DnD, or PnP, nor do i care, or do i care that DDO should be like DnD

seriously people need to see that is this DDO, not some game from 30 years ago that people wont let go of, take a right corner instead of going 100 mphs at the ideal DnD compared to DDO

and realize this is todays DDO, its 2007, its not what it was when you guys played it anymore awhile back

it might follow outlines of DnD, but it is not DnD, just like the off brand food people buy, same thing as the brand named stuff, just a little different/and lower in quality

---

Well, if a company created a game called "Sunday Afternoon NFL Football: Online" you would suspect it to have 4 downs, not 6, 100 yard long playing field, not 50, you would expect the quarter back to be able to hand-off, pass, or run/scramble not just pass, and the clock to stop when someone runs out of bounds. So when a company creates a game called "Dungeons & Dragons Online" we sort of expect the rules of the game to match as closely to the one it is named after as it can.

Also, in case you haven't checked, it's based off the CURRENT D&D, not what some of us played 20 years ago. You can go buy the rule book in the store right now all shiny and crisp and compare it to DDO and scratch your head as to why they are SO different.

Certain things haven't changed, like the unspoken rules of not giving away too many magical items, not overpowering the characters, not giving monsters blanket immunities, and such, but the rules in the book have changed a lot since the 70's-80's and in many cases for the better.

The game is called Dungeons and Dragons: Online, not Generic MMO With Cool Combat System: Online.

To truely fix beholders, in my own humble opinion:

1- Anti-Magic Cone from central eye would supress buffs. It would also supress all magical effects you have running. it would supress all magical items, weapons, armor. Weeee.

2- All ray attacks should actually have to roll to hit. This isn't just for beholders but for all ray attacks. Give wizads a reason to choose dex over con. Ray Sorcerers as a viable build. Beholder Enervation shouldn't be auto smoosh. (The devs have said that the lack of a to hit roll vs touch ac with ray attacks is because we have the ability as players to dodge out of the way. Shenanigans. I can dodge out of the way of arrows, but they still need an attack roll. I can tumble around a melee, but he still needs to roll. Wanna make it tougher? Increase the speed a ray reaches the target so they are tougher to dodge.)

Anti-Magic field could be a lot of fun to play in. Throw in a few Golems and watch the party cry. fighters with their masterwork weapons are suddenly not so uber vs beholders, but if the beholder drops that central eye cone, then launches all his rays at you, well, sucks be you. And as a previous poster stated, those eye rays should be targetting people outside the cone of antimagic. Beholders are smart. Keep as many casters in the central eye as possible, and unload all your other rays at the others. Mutliple beholders could actually cause each other problems as their antimagic cones overlap.

BTW, flesh to stone is an instantaneous effect. Because of this an antimagic field will not reverse the effect. It permanently changes you into a rock (in ddo we get a save/min to make it more mmo friendly.) There is some argument in my pnp group as to whether a break enchantment can reverse flesh to stone, or if the higher lvl stone to flesh is necessary to reverse it. (stone to flesh also requires a fort save or die as part of the process in pnp)

Agreed, we don't need anything to make the game easier... but anything that makes the game less broken is good. True, they work the way they are... but the way they are isn't the way they are supposed to be. If they were the way they are supposed to be, they would actually be quite a bit tougher. Us without magical gear is us gettin our butts kicked. Put a beholder in there with mindflayers... no magical gear to help your saves, dmg, whatevs... psionic blast goes off and can rip up the whole group pretty dern easily. Tasty brains for everyone.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lost Leader

2- All ray attacks should actually have to roll to hit. This isn't just for beholders but for all ray attacks. Give wizads a reason to choose dex over con. Ray Sorcerers as a viable build. Beholder Enervation shouldn't be auto smoosh. (The devs have said that the lack of a to hit roll vs touch ac with ray attacks is because we have the ability as players to dodge out of the way. Shenanigans. I can dodge out of the way of arrows, but they still need an attack roll. I can tumble around a melee, but he still needs to roll. Wanna make it tougher? Increase the speed a ray reaches the target so they are tougher to dodge.)

---

Yes, when I made my first Sorcerer on this game I gave him a high Dex to go with his high Cha. Why? I figured I'd need it for my Ranged Touch Attacks and Touch Attacks as well as AC. Well, the inflated gear makes AC on a caster a hard thing to do, and there is no touch attack to hit/avoid.

I am not happy about the dodging rays concept. With the issues of syncing a server and client you often are hit by the ray no matter how you time the dodge. There WAS a time I could dodge them ok, but for a while now it seems like there is no way to dodge Searing Light/Scorching Ray short of luck. They remind me of insta-hit railguns in certain FPS games. Touch AC would give light armor wearers a reason to exist besides Evasion builds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lost Leader

BTW, flesh to stone is an instantaneous effect. Because of this an antimagic field will not reverse the effect. It permanently changes you into a rock (in ddo we get a save/min to make it more mmo friendly.) There is some argument in my pnp group as to whether a break enchantment can reverse flesh to stone, or if the higher lvl stone to flesh is necessary to reverse it. (stone to flesh also requires a fort save or die as part of the process in pnp)

---

No Break enchantment doesn't remove flesh to stone, if anyone argues that tell them to call a GS at the WoTC hotline. Here is where the confusion lies:

Break Enchantment
Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: Up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25.

If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.

If the effect comes from some permanent magic item break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects.

Flesh to Stone
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.

Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.
Material Component

Lime, water, and earth.



But here is the reason it does not work:

"If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower."

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

High Saves, SR Item, and Deathblock fixes beholders

Leave the beholder killing to Paladins and Warforged! Everyone else can cower behind the corner.

I used to be afraid of beholders, until I ransacked Invaders twice. Now, they are nothing more than a fly and I'm the bug zapper.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roguewiz

High Saves, SR Item, and Deathblock fixes beholders

Leave the beholder killing to Paladins and Warforged! Everyone else can cower behind the corner.

I used to be afraid of beholders, until I ransacked Invaders twice. Now, they are nothing more than a fly and I'm the bug zapper.

---

But it does nothing to help fix beholders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ithrani

But it does nothing to help fix beholders.

---

Yea, I know. I was just making the comment because beholders aren't really that tough. As far as "fixing" them goes, I don't know. I never fought one in PnP, so I have no actual idea on how they are supposed to function.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ithrani

But it does nothing to help fix beholders.

---

Perhaps we should only oil the wheels that are squeaking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Perhaps we should only oil the wheels that are squeaking.

---

Good idea... it seems the squeaking you are talking about are people attempting to move the game closer to it's roots. Doing so would probably stop some squeaking and start more. Evasion is a good example of this. Wait... that isn't what you are asking for at all, it's the opposite. You wish people to say, "Nope... no reason to change anything."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Perhaps we should only oil the wheels that are squeaking.

---

*squeak* :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mad_Bombardier

*squeak* :D

---

/oils Mad_Bombardier :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PhoenixFire31

/oils Mad_Bombardier :D

---

Oooh yeah baby... that's the stuff!

/stops
/looks around at the leering crowd

"What? Don't let the avatar fool ya. I'm a Warforged, dontcha know!?" :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mercules

Good idea... it seems the squeaking you are talking about are people attempting to move the game closer to it's roots. Doing so would probably stop some squeaking and start more. Evasion is a good example of this. Wait... that isn't what you are asking for at all, it's the opposite. You wish people to say, "Nope... no reason to change anything."

---

Exactly. You are right on the money. That change to evasion was one of the stupidest decisions they ever made. I personally know 4 people from my friends list that cancelled once it was announced. They made the rules...people made characters based on those rules, then they changed the rules. Its like saying sorry buddy, 2 pair beats a royal flush now, you lose.
People just find another poker house where the rules stay consistent.

Does Turbine need to merge all the servers into 1 before you realise there is a population problem , or will you still not face up to facts? The evasion change led to a mass exodus as will any other major changes they care to make. In this very thread, a PNP enthusiast actually asks the non PnP guys to go play something else. That doesnt seem like a very smart thing to do unless they make alot of new solo mode dungeons.

So you want to make killing something easier. Bottom Line. You can't kill a beholder without dying a million times so you want to cry foul. Some basics on Beholder Killing:
1) WEB! They can get stuck in it too!
2) PK! Oh I love this spell
3) Use TACTICS. In VoN3 you can pull them ONE at a time with patience. In PoP, you FtS the Flayers and FoD the Beholder from up on the rocks in the corner by the door.

Ya, I've died to Beholders before. But you know what, they're NOT supposed to be easy, and wait until Mod 5 hits and you face the Undead Spectral version. Then come cry.

Devs don't hit the beholders with the nerf bat.

OP, if you want PnP rules then play PnP.

To the people who think making beholders like their Pen and Paper counterparts is somehow "bad". Go play a Pen and Paper campaign and report to us how it went. Using your keen tactical abilities I bet your DM get's a FPK notch in his belt without trying. Until them please stop making uninformed posts about things you obviously don't understand.

Beholders are some of the scariest opponents in Pen and Paper. Here in DDO land they've been reduced to spamming debuffs and violating the d20 ruleset in order to "win". It does nothing to make them fearsome it just makes them annoying. It also leaves a bad taste in the mouths of players who know how an encounter with beholders should work.

DDO is meant to impersonate the feel of a D&D game. If the technology is there to properly recreate a creature's abilities then it should be implemented.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Exactly. You are right on the money. That change to evasion was one of the stupidest decisions they ever made. I personally know 4 people from my friends list that cancelled once it was announced. They made the rules...people made characters based on those rules, then they changed the rules. Its like saying sorry buddy, 2 pair beats a royal flush now, you lose.
People just find another poker house where the rules stay consistent.

Does Turbine need to merge all the servers into 1 before you realise there is a population problem , or will you still not face up to facts? The evasion change led to a mass exodus as will any other major changes they care to make. In this very thread, a PNP enthusiast actually asks the non PnP guys to go play something else. That doesnt seem like a very smart thing to do unless they make alot of new solo mode dungeons.

---

The PnP enthusiasts left right around Release or Mod 1. THAT wasn't a very smart thing to do. Most MMO enthusiast are not very loyal to one game. If they are, they have been playing that game and still are playing that game and never tried DDO. The PnP enthusiasts would have stuck through lack of content and some of the other woes affecting this game that the MMO enthusiasts never would, but they drove them away be starting the game out SOOOOO far from the PnP ruleset. At least they realized their errors and are slowly angling it back towards those that would be the niche players for this niche game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nerate Mireth

OP, if you want PnP rules then play PnP.

---

Nerate Mireth, If you want Non-D&D rules then play an MMO not based off D&D.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by QuantumFX

To the people who think making beholders like their Pen and Paper counterparts is somehow "bad". Go play a Pen and Paper campaign and report to us how it went. Using your keen tactical abilities I bet your DM get's a FPK notch in his belt without trying. Until them please stop making uninformed posts about things you obviously don't understand.

---

I just do not want to make them EASIER to fight. They are easy enough already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crabo

Exactly. You are right on the money. That change to evasion was one of the stupidest decisions they ever made. I personally know 4 people from my friends list that cancelled once it was announced. They made the rules...people made characters based on those rules, then they changed the rules. Its like saying sorry buddy, 2 pair beats a royal flush now, you lose.

---

This is a tired argument. Turbine was screwed no matter which way they went with this. If they left evasion alone you would have a bunch of monks running around in +5 MFP of Kill Everything, and people would be ****ed because they were too powerful. If they left it alone but made it so everyone would be able to use evasion "as is" except monks, people would be ****ed because monks could not do that (and the first Pally2/Monk12 would have been born). If they left it alone and just said, "Sorry we can't do monks the way it is, and you want it left the way it is so no monks", people would be ****ed. It was a no win situation.

As far as squeaky wheels, my son had a couple wheels on a wagon that were squeaking. So I oiled them. Funny thing though, not long after one of those **** things started squeaking again! No matter how much attention I gave it, it squeaked. So I took it off put a new one on. No squeak. Point is, sometimes you can fix a squeak, sometimes it just keeps on squeaking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arlith

I just do not want to make them EASIER to fight. They are easy enough already.

---

I don't believe anyone on either side of the argument want's them to be pushovers. A lot of the Pen and Paper advocates have pointed out how a beholder works in D&D and how they need to be ported over so that the encounters become better than before. (ex. Attacking multiple targets at once. Keeping the caster pinned down in an anti magic field, etc.) I think it's this type of "complaining" that's garnered us better encounters with villians. (ex. I personally find all of the baby dragon fights to be much more entertaining than Velah.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Forgive me for misunderstanding. I for one do not feel i am cheated ANY time i fight a beholder let alone every time.
I can give you a list of things that are "currently functioning 100% differently than they do in PnP." Do you suggest all these things are fixed too ?
This isnt PnP , it never was, and it never will be.

---

Gotta go with Crabo on this one.

They may not be functioning like PnP but this isnt PnP. Beholders function properly, for DDO. The antimagic field disspelling buffs is how Beholders work here, them being able to disintegrate when they have their antimagic field up is how they are supposed to function in DDO.

Its not like they are ruining any quest. Its not like they make things impossible or take away the fun. In fact, they ADD a BUNCH 'O FUN to the game the way they work now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crabo

That change to evasion was one of the stupidest decisions they ever made. I personally know 4 people from my friends list that cancelled once it was announced. They made the rules...people made characters based on those rules, then they changed the rules. Its like saying sorry buddy, 2 pair beats a royal flush now, you lose.

---

Not really the point of this thread I realize, however, I would say a more appropriate analogy regarding Evasion would be that when the game was released, the rules were such that 2 pair beats a Royal Flush. Turbine then went back and made the rules the way they were supposed to be so that the Royal Flush beats the 2 pair. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Beherit Baphomar

Gotta go with Crabo on this one.

They may not be functioning like PnP but this isnt PnP. Beholders function properly, for DDO. The antimagic field disspelling buffs is how Beholders work here, them being able to disintegrate when they have their antimagic field up is how they are supposed to function in DDO.

Its not like they are ruining any quest. Its not like they make things impossible or take away the fun. In fact, they ADD a BUNCH 'O FUN to the game the way they work now.

---

Simple question... what does DDO stand for? This isn't WoW, ergo Beholders(a trademarked monster ONLY allowable in D&D) should act like D&D monsters, not Turbine's bastardization of them. If Turbine lost their D&D license they would have to remove Beholders & Mindflayers as enemies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mercules

Simple question... what does DDO stand for? This isn't WoW, ergo Beholders(a trademarked monster ONLY allowable in D&D) should act like D&D monsters, not Turbine's bastardization of them. If Turbine lost their D&D license they would have to remove Beholders & Mindflayers as enemies.

---

but you need to understand this is not PnP, or DnD, this is DDO, and they do not have to listen to you, or do they have to follow all the rules in PnP, and DnD

they make it for todays DDO, and today is the present and will be the future

DnD, and PnP is the past

just like when they made this game, they didnt have to put in monks, or any other races, or other classes, or other alignments, its because turbine does what ever they want to their game, they do not need to base it off a game in the past, people who keep lingering in the past needs to realized this game is the present and the future, things wont be the same from 20+ years ago or will they ever be added

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jaitee

but you need to understand this is not PnP, or DnD, this is DDO, and they do not have to listen to you, or do they have to follow all the rules in PnP, and DnD

they make it for todays DDO, and today is the present and will be the future

DnD, and PnP is the past

just like when they made this game, they didnt have to put in monks, or any other races, or other classes, or other alignments, its because turbine does what ever they want to their game, they do not need to base it off a game in the past, people who keep lingering in the past needs to realized this game is the present and the future, things wont be the same from 20+ years ago or will they ever be added

---

Considering this game is licensed by Atari, who gets the license from WotC... Yes, this game has to be based on PnP, or it can't carry the D&D name and logo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mercules

Most MMO enthusiast are not very loyal to one game.

---

Someone should tell that to the 5 million WOW customers, its seems to have been overlooked.
If you really believe that the PnP enthusiasts are in enough numbers to keep this game alive i can understand your point of view, and if Turbine believed it maybe they would make DDO exactly like PnP. Unfortunately for you ,Turbine are in this to make money, not friends.
To you this is a game, to them it is simply a way of taking $15 a month from as many people as they can for as long as they can.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Crabo

Someone should tell that to the 5 million WOW customers, its seems to have been overlooked.
If you really believe that the PnP enthusiasts are in enough numbers to keep this game alive i can understand your point of view, and if Turbine believed it maybe they would make DDO exactly like PnP. Unfortunately for you ,Turbine are in this to make money, not friends.
To you this is a game, to them it is simply a way of taking $15 a month from as many people as they can for as long as they can.

---

Its kind of a catch 22. There are a lot of PnP players out there, and I mean a lot.

There was a poll done a few years ago of business class airline passengers. They were aked how many of them play DnD, and how often... Something like 31% of the passengers interviews played 'often'.

The problem is this:

The game having the DnD name, and not being very close to PnP turn off many PnP players, and on the flipside, I think that if it were exactly like PnP, the game would not attract as many of the non-PnP group. So either way you are f-----.

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Originally Posted by Gelandor

Its kind of a catch 22. There are a lot of PnP players out there, and I mean a lot.

There was a poll done a few years ago of business class airline passengers. They were aked how many of them play DnD, and how often... Something like 31% of the passengers interviews played 'often'.

The problem is this:

The game having the DnD name, and not being very close to PnP turn off many PnP players, and on the flipside, I think that if it were exactly like PnP, the game would not attract as many of the non-PnP group. So either way you are f-----.

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I admit that i probably speak to more people in game each day that do/have played DnD than dont/havent. That said i still doubt they can make this game so much like PnP that they will get ALL the PnP guys to come across to it.

I have an idea, why doesnt Turbine make another game that doesnt have the DnD tag , put all their funding into it to make it much better than DDO, then slowly wind down DDO. But how can they make money on a game like that without all those PnP enthusiasts ? Surely it cannot succeed right?

Beholders do not become "easier" if their anti-magic eye cone was fixed, because your weapons should also be suppressed, your items, every magical effect you have cast and even supernatural abilities. So yeah, easier I doubt it. My god the ignorance is staggering.

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Originally Posted by Crabo

Someone should tell that to the 5 million WOW customers, its seems to have been overlooked.
If you really believe that the PnP enthusiasts are in enough numbers to keep this game alive i can understand your point of view, and if Turbine believed it maybe they would make DDO exactly like PnP. Unfortunately for you ,Turbine are in this to make money, not friends.
To you this is a game, to them it is simply a way of taking $15 a month from as many people as they can for as long as they can.

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1. EVERY person I have ever spoken to personally that has played WoW has tried other games. Every person I have spoken to personally who has played EQ or EQ2 or SWG or CoX, has tried other MMOs. Some go back to their old one, some move on.

2. All of the people I have personally spoken to who played PnP D&D but don't play MMOs on a regular basis who tried DDO and left has said they were not planning on trying a different MMO. Yes, DDO pulled in the PnP crowd who would not otherwise play an MMO. Maybe they left because MMOs are not RPGs, but most I spoke with left because DDO was, "Not D&D enough." or "Screwed up the rules."

3. Turbine made a decision to create an MMO. Right there they have the MMO crowd checking them out. Basing it off D&D has the PnP community checking them out. Best of both worlds, right? Now... how do they appease both of them. That was their issue. They tried to appeal to both, and FAILED. MMO junkies didn't have what they wanted and PnP junkies didn't have what they wanted. Frankly I think they did a pretty good job trying to balance it, but it was nearly an impossible task.

4. I am sure that had Turbine known then, what they have discovered, they would have catered to one or the other crowd. They learned and with LotR:O went with the MMO focus. D&D in an MMO format is a great concept, but suffers from certain things. Rules are complex, magical items not as common as most MMOs, and there are a ton of systems built that just are not useful or able to be programed in an MMO setting where the computer is the GM. Turbine could have gone Niche Game with DDO making it appeal to the narrower focus of the PnP junkies and had a small but steady income that would have kept them going for a while. Slow and steady investment instead of ".com business" rich for 2 years and broke the third.

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Originally Posted by jaitee

but you need to understand this is not PnP, or DnD, this is DDO, and they do not have to listen to you, or do they have to follow all the rules in PnP, and DnD

they make it for todays DDO, and today is the present and will be the future

DnD, and PnP is the past

just like when they made this game, they didnt have to put in monks, or any other races, or other classes, or other alignments, its because turbine does what ever they want to their game, they do not need to base it off a game in the past, people who keep lingering in the past needs to realized this game is the present and the future, things wont be the same from 20+ years ago or will they ever be added

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I think you need to understand PnP D&D is not a PAST thing. It is a current, living, breathing, evolving game. We are not lingering in the past, but you sure are lingering in your ignorance of what D&D actually is.

Nobody is asking for things from 20+ years ago. We are asking them to adhere to the rules that came out a couple years ago and have been ruled upon even as recently as last week from the company that has given Turbine permission to use those rules and can take that D&D name right away with a visit to a judge.

If that happens I hope you don't have a WF character as that will have to be pulled from the game along with every other Eberron reference. Beholders will have to be pulled out as they are not part of the open gaming license. Mindflayers, gone, Prison of the Planes, gone until they can come up with "other" planes not breaking copyright law.

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Originally Posted by Crabo

I admit that i probably speak to more people in game each day that do/have played DnD than dont/havent. That said i still doubt they can make this game so much like PnP that they will get ALL the PnP guys to come across to it.

I have an idea, why doesnt Turbine make another game that doesnt have the DnD tag , put all their funding into it to make it much better than DDO, then slowly wind down DDO. But how can they make money on a game like that without all those PnP enthusiasts ? Surely it cannot succeed right?

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Of course it can succeed without a single PnP enthusiast. However, having a game that adheres as closely to PnP D&D as possible given the technology/programing which would basically be a "niche" game for those who enjoy D&D but otherwise don't like MMOs or those who like MMOs -and- D&D would give them a loyal customer base.

Think about it this way. To play D&D you purchase a Player's Guide and a dozen dice. This is about $40. You then decide you want the Dungeon Master's Guide finding out there are prestige classes and other rules you might want even as just a player, another $30. Then you find out there is a new book that expands those rules, PG 2, another $30. Oh, but you could create a celestial character with the new rules for... another $30. You've always wanted to play... another $30. Need some nicer looking Dice, lets get the stone or copper ones, another $30. Another $30, another $30, another $30.

Get the picture? D&D players will spend a fortune on their hobby. They are also loyal to their game system and while they won't always agree with the rules, provide a new book with new rules and they will buy it. Turbine had a gold mine in PnP D&D players and shot themselves in the foot trying to "appeal to a wider audience". Books and movies do the same thing as do restaurants, bars, coffee shops, and such.

My friend owned a coffee shop. It was small but interesting. It didn't appeal to businessmen or all of the college crowd, but just a small niche crowd. He decided to make it appeal to more people, and got LESS business. His niche left and the others might stop there, or up the street, or across town.

People need to stop thinking, "If we can appeal to the masses, we get rich." and start thinking, if we can build a loyal following, we can live comfortably for years and years.

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Originally Posted by Ithrani

Beholders do not become "easier" if their anti-magic eye cone was fixed, because your weapons should also be suppressed, your items, every magical effect you have cast and even supernatural abilities. So yeah, easier I doubt it. My god the ignorance is staggering.

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Still, the Beholder cannot suppress your magic and shoot a ray at you at the same time. Killing a Beholder would amount to buffing all the melees with Deathward and temporary hit points in the event the eye closes, and watching them go to town. There are plenty of powerful innate melee abilities in the game that are not magical and would not be suppressed.

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Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes

Still, the Beholder cannot suppress your magic and shoot a ray at you at the same time. Killing a Beholder would amount to buffing all the melees with Deathward and temporary hit points in the event the eye closes, and watching them go to town. There are plenty of powerful innate melee abilities in the game that are not magical and would not be suppressed.

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Stunning Blow, for instance, is non-magical. Even lacking a +6 item and a 5% weighted item, I can personally hit a DC24. Most Beholders will fail that on Normal.

On Elite, though...

I feel like am trap in one of those books vs movie threads.

person 1: That never happened in book.
person 2: It a movie they had to make some changes.
person 3: If it share the book name it should be the same.
blah
blah
blah


This game is based on pnp. This game will never be exactly like pnp. Making a pnp game into a MMORPG is no different then making a book into a movie. Changes to story/rules, things left out, things added will happen.

But it would not surprise me if the people that complain this not exactly like pnp are the same people that complain about every little thing a movie get wrong that base off a book.

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Originally Posted by mgoldb2

But it would not surprise me if the people that complain this not exactly like pnp are the same people that complain about every little thing a movie get wrong that base off a book.

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Nope... I look at the movie and say, "Ah, I can see why they changed that for Pacing." I can also see why they left parts out. The comparison is similar.

Lets look at two movies based off books.

The Lost World(Jurrasic Park 2)

Lord of the Rings

Many changes from the books to the movie for Lord of the Rings. The Battle of Minas Tirith was made more dynamic instead of the long siege it was in the book, a good change for a movie. The Elves came to the rescue in Helm's Deep, not a good change, but needed because of a few plot changes. Aragorn's sword being delievered to him before the riding of the Mark, eh... needed because the sword was not reforged before leaving Rivendell. A small character change that made Aragorn more interesting. Is he going to follow his destiny or rebel?

Over all the changes to LotR were well thought out. Of them I only disliked the Gimli being the comedy relief.

The Lost World. It Diverged from the book about 10 minutes in and page 5. It never came back. The script was poor, which is a shame as they had the script practically written for them, they just had to cut things out for time.

Most of us claiming DDO should live up to it's namesake see certain things as "Lost World" changes and wish they were only "LotR" changes.