Tangleroot part IV: Whisperdoom's spawn

I realize that "elite" is not supposed to be the standard level to run a quest on, but... Are we sure that the spider is adjusted properly for the level of the quest?

I think it's a little ridiculous that a dwarf ranger with 280 hitpoints, heavy fortification, and haste, didn't successfully run away from whisperdoom without dying. Meaning in the time it took to cast a haste clickie, and run down the corridor to draw the spider away, down goes the dwarf. Somewhere between 14 and 30 points of piercing damage a hit.

Did she get hasted along with me when I used the clickie? I'll have to check next time I go in.

Now, I guess if I'd brought a wizard along for displacement, blur, stoneskin, etc.. I might have made it.

What do you folks think?

...maybe she summoned a lag monster and that was what got you?
Or something is bugged...sorry couldn't resist.
Happy Hunting

I'm thinking I did the exact same thing this morning on Delani. Add to that, she chewed through my 52 AC like it wasn't there. Now I have only 270 hps, but the exact same senario. Hasted and heavy fort. What lvl is that quest again??? And ummm.....why is it that I've soloed TR elite on the majority of my toons at lvl 9-10 with no problems, and suddenly that **** spider is badder than the Titan?

Think you need to explain somethings devs.

So you are saying that you are finding the quest challenging on elite then? Excellent. Keep trying or bring friends. I'm sure you'll get past her. She's a very wicked creation. She should not be a cake walk.

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Somewhere between 14 and 30 points of piercing damage a hit

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And how much are you doing per hit? 40 - 80?

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Now, I guess if I'd brought a wizard along for displacement, blur, stoneskin, etc.. I might have made it.

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Self buff.

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Originally posted by Friar Galanodel
So you are saying that you are finding the quest challenging on elite then? Excellent. Keep trying or bring friends. I'm sure you'll get past her. She's a very wicked creation. She should not be a cake walk.

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Um...maybe your missing the point that you are not supposed to fight her. Even the quest giver will tell you that. Or that it has been that way since the begining of the game. Or that someone ( sacrificial lamb anyone? ) has to aggro her in order to advance the quest. Or that a lvl 6 quest ( lvl4+2 for elite ) mob, even a named, should not be bypassing a 52 AC like it's not there. Or that she has never been able to keep up with anyone hasted before, and suddenly she can. Friends??? lol, what do you want them to do besides destroy eggs? Have the cleric run along side the 50+ AC, hasted tank and spam heals cause he's getting his arse kicked?

I've soloed that entire quest chain on elite on most of my toons at lvl 9-10 with np. Why the revamp?

Trust me guys, if you haven't tried the quest in a bit, give it a whirl, lol.

That spider is not the same as it was. Just on normal the other day, I didn't get halfway down the hall trying to lead her away before dying. I was buffed to a 36 AC and she did not miss a single shot, and had no problem out running me while I was hasted. It's not just on elite that she is tougher.

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Originally Posted by bandyman1

Um...maybe your missing the point that you are not supposed to fight her. Even the quest giver will tell you that. Or that it has been that way since the begining of the game. Or that someone ( sacrificial lamb anyone? ) has to aggro her in order to advance the quest. Or that a lvl 6 quest ( lvl4+2 for elite ) mob, even a named, should not be bypassing a 52 AC like it's not there. Or that she has never been able to keep up with anyone hasted before, and suddenly she can. Friends??? lol, what do you want them to do besides destroy eggs? Have the cleric run along side the 50+ AC, hasted tank and spam heals cause he's getting his arse kicked?

I've soloed that entire quest chain on elite on most of my toons at lvl 9-10 with np. Why the revamp?

Trust me guys, if you haven't tried the quest in a bit, give it a whirl, lol.

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My bad. I was thinking of the other quest, post Tangleroot. Comments retracted.

I did the just this quest the other days with a sorcerer on elite. Charming a hobgoblin or two made it very easy.

Funny you should mention this.

I "ran" her last night on my 14th level Dwarf Paladin. (My job was to draw her away from the eggs so the rest of the party could pop the eggs.)

My AC is in the low 40's and my HP's are at 360. All saves 20+.

I could not outdistance her with Haste + Expeditious Retreat (clickie) + 20% Boots.

My normal strategy of run into a rest shrine and close the door didn't work because she followed me in. She drilled through my H.P.'s and both of my Lay on Hands (+120 each). I was sucking Cure Potions like they were water on a hot day.

I finally got lucky and stumbled into a corner where she "bugged" and basically stopped attacking me. She and two of her daughters were right on top of me, but only swinging (or connecting) very rarely. I was able to recall out on my second attempt and found myself outside at 1 hit point.

This is a level 4 or 5 quest? The term "Elite" shouldn't negate the level. That was a 0 experience, supposedly "risk free" quest for me, and it was through pure dumb luck that I survived.

(But, it may be replicatable. I think it is her distance attack that is the most devastating. That will apparently drill through any AC and Saves and shred anyone. But, if you don't run, it appeared that she closes in too close to use it and relies on regular attacks that can miss.)

WRT to the folks who mentioned high ac's: Just wondering if you're getting your full ac...if she's behind you do you get your shield? Does she get a +2 flanking bonus or something?
V

I did the quest on normal with a group of level 5's about 2 months ago. They were barebones characters. Or has she been changed since then?

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Originally Posted by Girevik

My normal strategy of run into a rest shrine and close the door didn't work because she followed me in.

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On elite I usually just head for the quest entrance instead of the shrine.

Haven't run this since the last update so don't know if they changed anything with her or not.

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Originally Posted by Ziggy

I did the quest on normal with a group of level 5's about 2 months ago. They were barebones characters. Or has she been changed since then?

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Yeah bro, it's been changed. Ran it on elite with my lvl7 ranger about a mounth ago in a group, and I ran her because of my sprint boost. Had np out-distancing her, or getting mine arse kicked.

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Originally posted by Vorn
WRT to the folks who mentioned high ac's: Just wondering if you're getting your full ac...if she's behind you do you get your shield? Does she get a +2 flanking bonus or something?
V

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Still get shield bonus when she's behind, but she gets +2. That would still leave me at a 50 AC, lol. And I got my arse SMACKED.

Haste, striding boots, and expeditious retreat do NOT stack. Only the highest bonus (haste) applies.

Haste is not enough to outrun Whisperdoom. Ideally you have a hasted barbarian or ranger using sprint boost--then it's no problem. You can also try sense pulls--that may or may not work.

I have no idea how it was before--in my experience, if she catches you, you die. AC, stoneskin, and everything else was purely irrelevant.

I've managed to kite her away from her eggs on my new lowbie. I didn't get too close to her in the beginning, I hit my sprint boost as soon as I saw her, and I just took off running for the entrance. I was able to get to the door with no problems, hitting my sprint boost when it was available. She tends to stop sometimes to try to shoot you, so you can gain some distance then. She's still really fast though, and can do a ton of damage if she hits you with any of her attacks. I think speed is the key, not necessarily armor.

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Originally Posted by Plynx

Haste, striding boots, and expeditious retreat do NOT stack. Only the highest bonus (haste) applies.

Haste is not enough to outrun Whisperdoom. Ideally you have a hasted barbarian or ranger using sprint boost--then it's no problem. You can also try sense pulls--that may or may not work.

I have no idea how it was before--in my experience, if she catches you, you die. AC, stoneskin, and everything else was purely irrelevant.

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I knew expeditious retreat and haste didn't stack....but I thought that striding equipment and haste did?

I outran her on normal with no haste and no sprint boost, I just never looked back and ran for the entrance, 35AC lvl 5 ranger with longstrider on. Once you get to the hole you climb up she cannot follow, the key is to go first and body pull so you do not get to close, as she will be right on your tail. Evrybody stays out of the way till all the aggro is chasng you and then they go in.

I soloed that quest a while back on elite with my cleric at level 6-7 (been a while). What worked for me was having her chase me up the interior ramp with the traps. Jump off the edge, and run around and pop the eggs before she figures she needs to come back.

Tried to solo it last night on normal with a level 4 wizard. her other spiders would chase me up the ramp, but she wouldn't (much more painful for me given limited access to healing). But I DID manage to solo it after a couple of deaths by expeditious retreating, having her chase me around the circle a couple of times, slowly losing ground on me then ducking in there once she was no longer in line of site. As well as learning not to go up the interior trap area, she also appears to be much better at sensing things, as she started chasing me while she was very far away- barely within my view range. I imagine if I'd started running with her closer to me, it would have gone even worse.

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Originally Posted by Plynx

Haste, striding boots, and expeditious retreat do NOT stack. Only the highest bonus (haste) applies.

True enough

Haste is not enough to outrun Whisperdoom. Ideally you have a hasted barbarian or ranger using sprint boost--then it's no problem. You can also try sense pulls--that may or may not work.

Humm....funny since I've done it since beta, with np till last night. Check my sig, I only have one toon with sprint.

I have no idea how it was before--in my experience, if she catches you, you die. AC, stoneskin, and everything else was purely irrelevant.

I've soloed the mission on elite. On tanks with a good AC ( did I mention Del's was a 52 ? ), I've ignored her attacks while breaking the eggs( wiff-wiff-wiff ), and then stood in-place and recalled.

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Comments in red
Everyone is offering their strategies as if the OP and I can't beat the quest, lol. I've beaten TR more times than I can count. There's always at least 2-3 of the static rewards I want on every new toon I roll. What we wanna know is; WHEN THE HELL DID THEY CHANGE THE SPIDER????

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Originally Posted by Osharan Tregarth

I think it's a little ridiculous that a dwarf ranger with 280 hitpoints, heavy fortification, and haste, didn't successfully run away from whisperdoom without dying.

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280 hitpoints? What level are you?

Rangers are 8 hp/level, which comes to 112 at level 14. Say 22 con for another 6*14 = 84, or 112+84+20 = 216. So you've got to have Toughness and Dwarf Toughness on top of that.

Regardless, for a ranger to have 280 hitpoints means you are level 14, or close to it. And in that case: Why didn't you just KILL Whisperdoom? She's not magically invulnerable or anything. She has AC, DR, and hitpoints, all of which a level 12+ warrior should be able to overcome by swinging a large sword.

Within the last month, on Argo, I rolled a dwarf barbarian.

We were running tangleroot on normal, maybe hard, I cannot remember.

No haste, just my barbarian sprint boost used 3 times, I ran her all the way to the beginning, though she stayed on my heels the whole time.

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Originally Posted by bandyman1

Comments in red
Everyone is offering their strategies as if the OP and I can't beat the quest, lol. I've beaten TR more times than I can count. There's always at least 2-3 of the static rewards I want on every new toon I roll. What we wanna know is; WHEN THE HELL DID THEY CHANGE THE SPIDER????

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I tried to find release notes, but there was definite dev confirmation that she got harder as people were able to kill her. I think it was when gianthold came out. Also the AI changes made all the old tricks not work as she no longer follows you up to the cliff.

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Originally Posted by ArkoHighStar

I tried to find release notes, but there was definite dev confirmation that she got harder as people were able to kill her. I think it was when gianthold came out. Also the AI changes made all the old tricks not work as she no longer follows you up to the cliff.

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I'm pretty sure they made her harder to kill when they released the second Whisperdoom quest. Other than that, I'm not aware of any change either.

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Originally Posted by Mhykke

I knew expeditious retreat and haste didn't stack....but I thought that striding equipment and haste did?

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Since my cleric is always the slowest runner in the party I have had plenty of time to play with hasted and non-hasted speeds.

I'm pretty much convinced nothing stacks with Haste - except maybe the Barb sprint.

I ran Whiserpdoom's Spawn on hard the other day with my barbarian - I was the spider bait and I sprinted for the exit (no haste, just barb sprint). She kept up with me, and I had a nasty moment trying to climb the rocks with her swinging at me, but I made it out with a fair amount HP to spare.

I never seem to work the shrine trick. I'm too clumsy. :)

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Originally Posted by Gimpster

Regardless, for a ranger to have 280 hitpoints means you are level 14, or close to it. And in that case: Why didn't you just KILL Whisperdoom? She's not magically invulnerable or anything. She has AC, DR, and hitpoints, all of which a level 12+ warrior should be able to overcome by swinging a large sword.

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Actually, I thought she WAS magically invulnerable. Wasn't that the change they made to her? That you CANNOT kill her? Maybe I'm wrong about that.

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Originally Posted by PurdueDave

I'm pretty sure they made her harder to kill when they released the second Whisperdoom quest. Other than that, I'm not aware of any change either.

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Looking back through past posts it looks like she was made unkillable when evil resurgent came out although it is not listed in the release notes.

I think she was made faster in the last update.....My friend has been the one trying to run from her a couple times recently....he never had trouble before.
She's not as damageing in normal, but the guy running her around last night still died pretty quick.
She also appears faster in Spawn of Wisperdoom as well.

Thx for the info Arko and Talon.

I agree, it must have been the last update. I used to "outrun" her without haste and maybe 5% speed boots (I imagine the other spiders got in her way). She'd get a couple of attacks in, but not hit enough to matter for my tank.

I'll have to check this out. It will make things more exciting. :p

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Originally Posted by moorewr

Since my cleric is always the slowest runner in the party I have had plenty of time to play with hasted and non-hasted speeds.

I'm pretty much convinced nothing stacks with Haste - except maybe the Barb sprint.

I ran Whiserpdoom's Spawn on hard the other day with my barbarian - I was the spider bait and I sprinted for the exit (no haste, just barb sprint). She kept up with me, and I had a nasty moment trying to climb the rocks with her swinging at me, but I made it out with a fair amount HP to spare.

I never seem to work the shrine trick. I'm too clumsy. :)

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I know the sprints definitely stack....

In terms of the striding though: I just remember back when the cap was 10, trying to test striders w/ haste. 2 of us rolled new characters, same str, same class, same equipment in backback threw striders on one and not the other, got someone to haste us, and the person who had the striders outran the one who didn't...........Weird.....

She was updated because shes meant to be impossible. They kinda failed in making her impossible tho:

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/447...ot01470fg4.jpg

But really its ok. Because if done at an appropriate level she would be impossible.

AC: 30-40
DR: 30-40+ (In the SS i hit for 20 (with quad rage and bard buffs - I normally hit for 60+)
HP: More then most bosses in lvl13/14 elite quests. (Well probably not, but her regen is so insanely fast that you do end up doing that kinda damage)

It took me longer to kill her then it did killing Velah (only person attacking)

Tho when I was lvl6-7 I did kill her back in the day.. Fairly straightfoward on normal.. Then later on elite I was having a really hard time so I switch'd to a maladroit club and took her down on elite. So yea she was a bit too easy back then and not nearly impossible like she was sposed to be. Now I don't think i'd have a chance at lvl6-9.

Say - since it's not a skill you can train, so the # isn't transparent - do the races have different base running speeds? I bet PnP would tell me that...

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Originally Posted by Mhykke

I know the sprints definitely stack....

I just remember back when the cap was 10, trying to test striders w/ haste. 2 of us rolled new characters, same str, same class, same equipment in backback threw striders on one and not the other, got someone to haste us, and the person who had the striders outran the one who didn't...........Weird.....

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Originally Posted by Girevik

I "ran" her last night on my 14th level Dwarf Paladin. (My job was to draw her away from the eggs so the rest of the party could pop the eggs.)

My AC is in the low 40's and my HP's are at 360. All saves 20+.

I could not outdistance her with Haste + Expeditious Retreat (clickie) + 20% Boots.

My normal strategy of run into a rest shrine and close the door didn't work because she followed me in. She drilled through my H.P.'s and both of my Lay on Hands (+120 each). I was sucking Cure Potions like they were water on a hot day.

I finally got lucky and stumbled into a corner where she "bugged" and basically stopped attacking me. She and two of her daughters were right on top of me, but only swinging (or connecting) very rarely. I was able to recall out on my second attempt and found myself outside at 1 hit point.

This is a level 4 or 5 quest? The term "Elite" shouldn't negate the level. That was a 0 experience, supposedly "risk free" quest for me, and it was through pure dumb luck that I survived.

(But, it may be replicatable. I think it is her distance attack that is the most devastating. That will apparently drill through any AC and Saves and shred anyone. But, if you don't run, it appeared that she closes in too close to use it and relies on regular attacks that can miss.)

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I've found that she still bugs when you run around the cave room, she'll get stuck on the wargs that are too stupid not to try and run through a wall at you. By the way Haste+ Expedistious Retreat+ Strider %20= %40 run walk bonus from haste alone, they do not stack, only barb increased speed (or monk) will allow you to run faster than %40 with haste alone, excluding of course sprint boosts. I did elite TR on my Sorc the other night with 2 friends... i decided that a lvl 14 sorc built strictly for damage output should be able to HARM her... i laid down 8 max-emp-extend firewalls in a box and one more going through it all in the place she'd have to run. She promptly killed me even though she was taking over 400 damage a second. Health bar barely moved.

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Originally Posted by ArkoHighStar

Looking back through past posts it looks like she was made unkillable when evil resurgent came out although it is not listed in the release notes.

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I recall the change in release notes as well, but I know for a fact that she is NOT unkillable currently. I killed her with my barbarian (solo) after whatever update said she was beefed up.

I do have a screenshot, but it doesn't prove when I killed her (no screenshot datestamps), so there's no real point in posting it.

whisperdoom her self more powerful then in the past but overall the quest easier. Back pre-vermin nerf fighting those brown princes with a group of level 5-6's on elite was brutal.

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Originally Posted by Gimpster

And in that case: Why didn't you just KILL Whisperdoom? She's not magically invulnerable or anything. She has AC, DR, and hitpoints, all of which a level 12+ warrior should be able to overcome by swinging a large sword.

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I heard... though do not know from firsthand experience... that she was made completely invulnerable in Splinterskull at the time the Whisperdoom quest was added.

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Originally Posted by Gimpster

280 hitpoints? What level are you?

Rangers are 8 hp/level, which comes to 112 at level 14. Say 22 con for another 6*14 = 84, or 112+84+20 = 216. So you've got to have Toughness and Dwarf Toughness on top of that.

Regardless, for a ranger to have 280 hitpoints means you are level 14, or close to it. And in that case: Why didn't you just KILL Whisperdoom? She's not magically invulnerable or anything. She has AC, DR, and hitpoints, all of which a level 12+ warrior should be able to overcome by swinging a large sword.

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yup, level 14 dwarf ranger, toughness, and enhancements... No draconic vitality yet. 282 hitpoints, to be precise.

And on my (first) time through the room, I was just trying to break the eggs... Got through 18 of them before she killed me.

Self buffed with barkskin, defensive fighting, etc... At about 40 ac.

On my second time back in, I summoned my pet, broke the last two eggs while they killed her, hit my haste clickie, and ran for it. I made it out of the cave, but not to the locked door.

I'm not sure that something taking me down that quickly is anything I'd want to waste my time trying to kill...

It's not hard to get a high level character to that spot in the quest.. Why don't YOU go in and kill her, and let us know how it turns out? I was just finishing off some leftover favor quests that I'd missed while leveling.

I'm not really trying to get advice on how to kill the spider, or even better survival tips. I've been playing for a while now.... I've got a list of my own I could trot out.

I'm just trying to make sure people know that currently, the quest is a little on the imbalanced side in favor of the spider.

I ran it on normal and did the whole run past the disarmed traps and jump off the cliff. I ran around the corner and tried to recall, she followed me, right off the cliff! I have run all kinds of characters through that and before I could survive as my lowly rogue, now she will kill my dwarven fighter with almost disgusting ease.

I have run tangleroot many times and I can say with confidence that she is a lot faster, stronger, tougher than before. Like the 6 million dollar spider. Da da da da da da daaaahhhh! (cheezy old sound effects)

It's crazy.

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Originally Posted by moorewr

/snip
I never seem to work the shrine trick. I'm too clumsy. :)

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Heh.. That, plus in one of the recent updates they taught her to open doors...

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Originally Posted by bandyman1

Comments in red
Everyone is offering their strategies as if the OP and I can't beat the quest, lol. I've beaten TR more times than I can count. There's always at least 2-3 of the static rewards I want on every new toon I roll. What we wanna know is; WHEN THE HELL DID THEY CHANGE THE SPIDER????

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When did anyone say you couldn't beat the quest? Did you actually read the post, or do you just naturally take offense when someone tries to be helpful?

We've all beaten the quest, and SOME of us are trying to point out that there have been changes made to the spider that might necessitate different tactics. Nobody thinks beating that quest gives us license to brag... right?

I always thought that even the original version of Whisperdoom was never intended to be beaten -I don't recall the specific update, but sometime around six months ago, Whisperdoom was upgraded a bit to make her tougher.

Something that's always been the case, however, is that she runs quickly - just like a few other creatures in the game that can keep up with hasted characters. A couple that come to mind would be the Named Scorpion in Threnal (just north of the original loot-run Giant Caves) and the Jariliths out in the GiantHold.

I am surprised, however, that you weren't still slightly faster. Could you have had your encumbrance up?

As luck would have it, I just soloed this quest this morning (it was the next one on my todo list). For lack of any other plan, I went with the old "lead her to the cliff above the shrine" trick. It worked like a charm. I didn't turn around to see how far up the corridor she followed me, but once I dropped off the cliff, I was free to head back into her cave and take out the eggs (and get the chest). Had a slight scare, as one of her black widow friends returned just as I was FOing, so I had to stop to kill it. No one else came back and I finished out with no problem.

Maybe I just got lucky. But it seems to me the cliff trick still works to some extent.

Glad it still works in some cases at least. Tried it twice with my wizzy, didn't work either time.

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Originally Posted by miceelf88

Glad it still works in some cases at least. Tried it twice with my wizzy, didn't work either time.

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Huh, interesting.

Well, I dunno if this makes any difference or not. When I got to the cliff, instead of going straight down, I jumped over to the ledge part on the right, went that way as far as I could, then went down. Maybe that helped me, or maybe I just got really lucky and she got stuck somewhere on the walls or something.

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Originally Posted by Gimpster

280 hitpoints? What level are you?

Rangers are 8 hp/level, which comes to 112 at level 14. Say 22 con for another 6*14 = 84, or 112+84+20 = 216. So you've got to have Toughness and Dwarf Toughness on top of that.

Regardless, for a ranger to have 280 hitpoints means you are level 14, or close to it. And in that case: Why didn't you just KILL Whisperdoom? She's not magically invulnerable or anything. She has AC, DR, and hitpoints, all of which a level 12+ warrior should be able to overcome by swinging a large sword.

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Not impossible to reach as Dwarven Ranger. I run a 1/13 Rogue/Ranger who is sitting at a 22 CON, I have Toughness and Dwarf Toughness and recently got lucky at the Titan on the Belt of Brute Strength (+6 strength/30 Greater False Life). So I am sitting at 320 Hitpoints, 28 strength with Axe Attack 2.


Whisper Doom is easy to get away from. Grag her agro, run her past the shrine, past the chest, drop off side, recall (she's never followed me off). And if she did, just keep running out front door.

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Originally Posted by Osharan Tregarth

I think it's a little ridiculous that a dwarf ranger with 280 hitpoints, heavy fortification, and haste, didn't successfully run away from whisperdoom without dying.

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I think that you're dwarf either got lag bombed... or is being played by a ******. That's just me though.

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Originally Posted by XFracture

I think that you're dwarf either got lag bombed... or is being played by a ******. That's just me though.

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Ah yes.. The voice of reason appears...

/bow

I dunno. She would NOT come past the traps in the ramp at all. She just turned around at that point and went back into the tunnels.