Monster Champion Feedback

Do something about the outrageous health pools, and you might be closer to something acceptable. Ultimately, though, some people (such as myself) don't appreciate this being dropped in as non-optional. There is literally no incentive for me to want to deal with these things, so there is no reason I want them to be in the game in the first place--let alone the existing content that I previously could run with a decently geared and thought-out build. I'm not a triple completionist, don't have 6 years worth of raid loot to draw upon, and would rather play an alt than TR. These champions are strictly detrimental to my play experience--as in, NOT ONE GOOD THING about them. If they at least gave some extra exp (2-3% of quest base), I could justify the extra time they take to deal with. I appreciate that they have been dialed back a bit, but they still have lots of problems and are still purely a waste of time.

I tried them out when U24 hit, and I haven't logged in since that day. I have no reason to.

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Originally Posted by FestusHood

Back to the point i wanted to make. You say that ice flensers should be toned down specifically because they can one shot you. If you truly feel that, why would the addition of randomly appearing monsters which can do the same thing be a good idea? The fact that you can't realistically prepare for all the ways they might do this is what makes it frustrating, at least for me.

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yes you can. you build for defense just like you would for anything else in the game. we know that Champions can hit hard, so if you don't have a very good defense, than let someone else take the agro, range them, sneak past them or something to avoid getting their agro. ive seen tank builds list their damage from combat after getting hit from a Champion. they do hit hard sometimes so be prepared.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

We may make more substantial differences between Heroic and Epic (or other level ranges) at some point, but the changes today are across all levels. There's some changes we weren't prepared to make today within the first week of Champion Monsters being live, and we'd like to see some more feedback with the new values as well before committing to other changes that are more complicated (as well as more time consuming on our end). We felt today's changes were good "bang for the buck", without disrupting live play.

Yes. The changes went live today around the time of Cordovan's post.

We felt we had enough feedback after one weekend to at least get some changes that we think will work better (and that we set up to do without taking any servers down).

Second Wind probably lasts a little too long. It is a good idea to get out of the way for a short period after it triggers. And it could potentially have a quicker and perhaps more obvious visual effect when it goes off.

We'll keep listening to feedback from all players.

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The rates of spawn seem way less to me.

I like it like this for Heroic Elite.

I haven't tried EE yet and I am hoping it's not too easy now.

For Hard it seems you will have just a few Champions in the whole quest, as opposed to a few in the room.

I'm looking forward to seeing how some of the people who had issue with difficulty feel.

I hope they try it again. It really is much different.

Thanks :-)

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Second Wind is less than ten seconds already and then it disappears. It is a good idea to get out of the way for a short period after it triggers. And it could potentially have a quicker and perhaps more obvious visual effect when it goes off.

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Not exactly: Second Wind needs a visual effect before it goes off.

(Reading mouseover text in an inspection window doesn't count as a visual effect)

These were my posts on the subject from this thread and on Lam.
It is a solution for both groups, but people do not seem to like the idea of a check box.

There is already a post entitled "Sudden Champion Nerfs And Are Casuals Ruining The Game? " There is already some complaints about the nerf in this thread.

Since I sat on a bridge on Wayfinder instead of playing in support of those players negatively impacted by that change and I have never TRed a character, I am going to take a break and not log in for awhile in support of those players negatively impacted by this change.

No you cannot have my stuff (sorry Ghallanda no undead soul gem for 10,000/15,000 buy out for awhile)! In my post below, I state that this change does not really affect me.

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Originally Posted by OverlordOfRats

The problem as I see it is there is such a huge gap in power between the bored with elite people and the pre-update difficultly was good for them people.

The first group needed something badly before they left do to boredom. Champions seems to be a good fit for them:D.
The second group was in a reasonably happy place. Champions do not seem to be a good fit for them and looks to be driving some of them away:(.
Driving paying customers away from either group is not good for the game.

So, put in a check box for Champions on the difficulty screen. Win-win for both groups.

The first group doesn't have to get bored again if Champions get nerfed.
The second group doesn't have to give up favor and XP, and have extra added game time to TR to "just run Normal".
As the second group gets closer to the first group they have an extra difficulty in EH with Champions to make that leap up to EE and EE with Champions.


Disclaimer: I run Normal and Hard solo at level for XP. I run Elite solo over level for favor only. I occasionally run with a RL friend. My play style will not be affected by Champions, but I need people from both of the above groups to help me keep this game alive. I cannot afford to pay for the entire game by myself;).

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Originally Posted by OverlordOfRats

I would just like to ask those who like it as it is but are against a check box option one question.

What happens when there is no check box and the "horde of casuals" complain until it gets nerfed?

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Originally Posted by Originally Posted by FestusHood View Post

Currently we have the following difficulties. I don't include casual as i honestly know nobody that runs this difficulty.

n,h,e = 3.

If they implemented Champions with the ability to opt out of it, it would look like this.

n,h,h+,e,e+ = 5. Most important is that nothing currently available is removed. *Snip*

Implemented without an opt out, it would look like this.

n,h+,e+ = 3. The important thing here, is that they are different options from the ones that are currently on live.
*Snip*

With an option, you can have what you want, and i can have what i want. You check the box, i don't. Or maybe i do sometimes, and sometimes you don't. Choices. It's a beautiful thing.

*Snip*



The above sums up my feelings for why there should be a check box.

In heroic levels it keeps the games current difficulty for those who are still challenged by HH and HE. It also gives the players who are TRing and bored with HE something to spice things up with.

In epic levels it keeps the games current difficulty for those who are still challenged by EH and EE. It gives a solution to the problem of too much of a jump in difficulty between EH and EE. It also gives a difficulty level over EE for those who have been asking for it.


The reward needs to be something besides trash loot.

I think a system based like the Sagas is a good idea.

Every time you kill a Charmion you get X Champion Points1. Put a Champion Vendor in the game so the player can pick the reward they want instead of some random junk that is useless to them. Have the reward list be XP, Guild Renown, Commendation of Valor, Token of the Twelve, a selection of +5 or +6 Stat Tomes, and/or other similar items. I do not think it should be ingredients from a specific quest pack though.

Some of the players still find trash loot useful for plat and cannith crafting. This does not seem like those are the players this is designed for though.



1. Make the Champion Points be a behind the scenes tracker like the Sagas, not something that goes in inventory. Make them character specific and show them on either the character sheet or character inventory for easy tracking. Make them like Guild Renown so if the character is too high of a level they do not get any points for killing a Champion.

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Originally Posted by Cordovan

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.
• Hard Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 33%.
• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

Please continue to provide us with your feedback on Monster Champions. Thanks!

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Thank you for confirming that I am not (entirely) a whiny wimp.

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

Of course they would... That's exactly what people did about Elite, and everyone got buffed until Elite became easy. Of course it would happen again on Mythic.

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The logic of this eludes me. There are many people who profess to love the champions system exactly as implemented. Are you telling me that THOSE people would complain about the difficulty there?

If that's true, it's still a better option than champions. If even the people who wanted/needed the extra challenge complain about it, then you can be quite sure that all the people that didn't want it are going to be complaining about it too.

If what you say is true, then i can't see any validity to the idea that people actually want more challenge. The top players are simply interested in enforcing some sort of strict hierarchical caste system into the game. Frankly this is readily apparent when reading through this thread.

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Originally Posted by Severlin

Greetings!

We have been reading player feedback, data gathering how players did over the weekend with Monster Champions in place, and playing with the content ourselves. Although we are still data-mining, I wanted to give players our initial impressions of all of this.

~ Overall we like the system and have had fun with it. A lot of players played with the system over the weekend. That said, even our most hardcore devs agree there are probably just too many Monster Champions, especially on Hard. We plan on reducing the spawn chance by around ~20% on Elite and ~40% on Hard. This will include minions and orange name bosses.

~ We are also looking at damage. There is some content where the damage is higher than we are comfortable with. We will probably dial back the damage increase as well. We want feedback on the possiblity that damage boosts for minion and orange named bosses will drop by about 20%.

We are looking for feedback for these proposed changes as we want to make those changes this week.

~ We agree with players that it would be cool to have the Champions have a chance to give an extra reward such as Champion tokens. We like the suggestion that tokens can be turned in for some crafting materials and are looking into that.

~ Hirelings seem somewhat fragile with Monster Champions lurking about. After our changes we will be looking for feedback as to whether they need to take less damage from Monster Champions. That change is somewhat involved and wouldn't be put in until the next patch.

Sev~

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~Overall, I like the concept too (although you wouldn't know that from most of my posts).

~I haven't tried hirelings since well before the introduction of champions. I have had difficulty with hirelings for quite a while now. I can't figure out how to tell a hireling to "defend this spot" or "defend this NPC" since the changes to the hireling AI a while ago. Instead they either go running as soon as I get into combat or stand there and do nothing at all. Is there a way to do this and I just haven't clued in? If so, how?

Hazel~

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Originally Posted by FestusHood

Sorry for responding to this so late, but i have to sleep sometime.

I also remember being one shotted by these things. I also remember being one shotted by disintegrates by many types of casters throughout the game.

The thing is, they were predictable, and to some degree you could prepare for them. For ice flensers, you could use fire shield for enduring protection, and protection from energy to prevent getting one shotted at least one time. Disintegrates are a little tougher, as if you could not make the saving throw, it's not like you could actually buff that in any significant way. However, that's kind of what spell absorption items are for. With some predictability, and the right piece of gear, you had a way to avoid it.

When i used to see vets trounce through a quest like invaders, i found that pretty much all of them had a silver flame talisman. Always seemed to me that the persistent evervating beholders did was their biggest threat. Again, the game offered a way to overcome this, and as a result, i bought the necro packs specifically to be able to get one. That's a success for the game.

Back to the point i wanted to make. You say that ice flensers should be toned down specifically because they can one shot you. If you truly feel that, why would the addition of randomly appearing monsters which can do the same thing be a good idea? The fact that you can't realistically prepare for all the ways they might do this is what makes it frustrating, at least for me.

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i don't think they should be toned down at all. their polar ray is not a constant attack. there are a few ways to deal with them as well. you can also protect yourself many ways from resist cold, fire shield hot, protection from cold. that is just the protection. enough hp to take it in there are various ways to deal with them tactic wise. spells, abilities like trip/stun etc.

Its the same thing when i go around any mob with disintegrate. Im always careful around them. So beholders, raiyum, liches, Gnoll casters etc. for this spell constantly be moving, enough hp to survive it, higher fortitude saves as well as tactics vs the mobs.

when the damage from the champions hit you it was either 1 shot or 2 shots very quickly. 1 shot example would be the champ sorcs from mask of deception. i saw them 1 shoting players with 800+ hp. this was not ee either. yes same thing can be applied tactic wise but other then that. there wasn't too much you could do. champ assassins as well seemed to ignore any fort you had as well. i understand they probably have piercing and all. so there is a point when you play where some things make you scratch your head.

when i was doing heroic elite earlier i felt the damage and champ spawns were about right. when i look at difficulties of the champions heroic elite and epic elite champs should always hit hard up to a point. i don't want them to be a pushover nor do i want them to slaughter you in a sec. so im ok with heavy damage from them if it means you get a chance to heal up, back away whatever you need to do to deal with them.

i honestly would love to see red names become champions. if they did i would want to see random buffs. some dps increase and only a small % boost to their hp. reason i say that is some mobs on ee have near 200+ say in stormhorns. I dont want to see them go to 300k just for no reason. please note im more referring to giant bosses not regular mobs. i think if this was ever to happen that the chest % would be much higher then an orange name. yet again just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Cordovan

We have reduced the number of Monster Champions that spawn, and also reduced the overall damage boost Champions get. The numbers are now:

• Hard normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 6%.
• Elite normal monsters: The percentage chance for a Champion to spawn has been reduced from 12% to 9%.
• Hard Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 33%.
• Elite Orange named monsters (mini-bosses) is now 66%.
• Champion Damage boost: Reduced by 25%.

Please continue to provide us with your feedback on Monster Champions. Thanks!

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You guys should have left the champions alone as they where but removed them completely from the Heroic levels. Keep them strong and tough and BRUTAL on Epic Elite. You had said so yourself that you do not expect new players to run heroic elite but sad to let you know that is not the case THANKS TO BRAVERY BONUS! It offers more xp = faster leveling= more power who wouldn't want to run elite for those reasons? Heroic levels 1-20 should be for new players while the Epic levels 20-28 should be for players with past lifes, best end game gear, knowledge of the game, Veterans.
At first I was under the assumption that this was how it was: Heroic=new players. Epic=Veteran players who wanted more challenge/power.

Anywhoo . . . time for some actual Feedback.

Solo person scalling EE GH, got hit for about 300ish on a light PRR rogue by the orcs in Feast. Stood there and let one him me a few times to get a sample.

Joined some pug EE Stormhorns, hits seems about 400ish with full group scaling.

Is this about what's intended?

Can anyone give some heroics numbers?

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Originally Posted by Impaqt

I do indeed know dozens of people who have left the game over the 8+ years I've been playing. and I can say one thing about them with absolute certainty.

Not a single one left because the game was too hard or because they didnt like a change that added difficulty to the game.

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All that proves is the type of people you game with / know.

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Originally Posted by Impaqt

Others are always going to feel entitled to complete the hardest difficulties at no cost.

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I don't know anyone who thinks this.

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Originally Posted by Keladon

Sarcasm? Champions are random, there's no denying that.

Yes, my typical outlook about wanting more options and pleasing everyone, is there anything wrong with that?

I see people saying you can't please both those against & those in favor of this change.. but you can, make it optional, it's not even hard to come up with a solution like that.

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I really want the same...something that works for everyone. Unfortunately, (imo) making it optional (a checkbox) will further destroy the group issues...and its this grouping issue that I see as the more important problem that DDO is facing.

To get the majority of players grouping, there needs to be a reason...harder content is a good reason.
Again, and unfortunately, this will totally scr*w over some players...and that sucks. But imo, this is the type of action that will get DDO healthier in the long run.

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

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Originally Posted by HAL

Unfortunately they are being honest - if you're the kind of person who looks down their nose at everyone who doesn't play the way that you play, everyone who doesn't play the way you play MUST be looking for an easy button.

There couldn't possibly be any other reason why everyone wouldn't want to play the way the "ubers" play... O.o

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Again, this is the devs reacting to "us" asking for the game to be more challenging. Direct your attention to them and what they gave us for challenge, not the players who welcome it.

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I'm directing this comment at all the (many) veteran players accusing others of wanting an "easy button". It would make no sense to direct this comment at the developers.

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Originally Posted by HAL

All that proves is the type of people you game with / know.

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Wasn't trying to prove anything.

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Originally Posted by Impaqt

I just call it as I see it.

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Ok, where do you "see" people asking for an easy button? Please link.

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Originally Posted by Albinosaurus

It's not even that complex. He's obviously a troll. Nobody can be dumb enough to not at least acknowledge the view point of the people who don't like the champs.

Any reasonable, sane person would agree that the checkbox, followed by incentivized rewards for champions, would be a perfectly acceptable compromise that would allow people who don't like it to opt out while the challenge-seekers can have their harder setting to play on. Win/win.

Instead, he condescendingly makes bad arguments to try to shut them up. I stopped reading his posts around page 12 or so.

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The challenge seekers who are against the checkbox either want to force people to play a lesser difficulty because they are elitists or are afraid that there aren't enough challenge seekers.

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Originally Posted by HAL

Ok, where do you "see" people asking for an easy button? Please link.

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Sorry, that would be against forum rules. Nice try though.

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Originally Posted by count_spicoli

This really bums me out. I was loving right where the current champ status was. CC was looking like it was useful again and dedicated healing might have been useful again.
Quests that were snooze fests were interesting again. From ee tharak which was a wild ride to canning crystal which I usually watched tv and ran to protect baudry's interests where I had to come up with a whole new game plan then stand in front of crate and mindlessly swing.

I loved that one rat in the group was a nasty killer or one paticulat minotaur out of the 9 coming at you was a big muscle bound bad a$$.

I fell like you guys are caving to the sissy I play the game once a week for an hour I want to run elite without trying and succeed people.

They have 3 settings Cas norm and hard to chose from. Leave elite to the people who actually like challenge. Heck hard still gives a xp streak. I feel these changes are taking us back to where casuals have 4 settings a actual good players have 0. If it goes back to sissy land again I may have to take a break for a while.

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Originally Posted by Mandelia

The pansies who couldn't handle it and screamed the loudest got their way. No real surprise. The lowest common denominator wins again.

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Let's quickly replay what really happened here

1) The same group of people complained in the general forum several times a week about wanting more difficulty
2) Turbine added Champions to address this concern
3) The people that weren't complaining originally and didn't like the change said "whoa - we liked it the way it was - please make it optional so they can have their challenge but we can opt out"
4) The original complainers said "don't make it optional - nobody will use it if it's not mandatory"

So the devs made minor adjustments to the existing system to try and address the largest 2 complaints while not making it optional.

Net Net

The game is harder than it was previously as you and the others wanted, but they addressed some of the things that weren't working as intended (per the devs own comments). And here you and the others are still complaining after getting what you wanted.

Very predictable.