Epic SoS Nerfed to +10 5d6/x3

Believe it or not, it may just be your luck, but the ESoS is MUCH easier to grind for. Maybe now, that you've been running shroud for so long, a MinII isn't as hard to make. But, for the newer player, an ESoS is much easier getting than the 24 larges needed for a minII, let alone the additional 24 for a second ESoS. For the power gamer, its trivial; for the casual/newer player, not so much. Really, it all comes down to this: The Epic Sword of Shadows needed a nerf, it got one. The Ring of Spell Storing needed a nerf, it got one(although it seems like a much larger nerf than the one applied to the ESoS.) TWF needed a nerf, and it got one. They're doing their best to balance the game. If you're getting blueballs because of a nerf to an Overpowered weapon, you really need to check yourself. Why do you think everyone out there is "OMG, ESOS IS MUST HAVE!!!"? Because of the fact that its the strongest weapon in the game, leaving everything else behind.

Sure, you say there's limitations, sure you say that it wasn't as uber as everyone thinks. But why were there threads ASKING FOR A BUFF TO THE ESOS? The reason being because, although it was the most powerful weapon in the game, it wasn't good enough. Believe me, if the devs actually changed it to have two red augment slots like a lot of people asked for, THEN this change came into play? People like you would /nerdrage even harder. But if that weren't the case, why would everyone that has a THF'er be grinding for one? If it wasn't as powerful as it is now, people would be more willing to use different weapons over the ESoS, and it wouldn't be the "OMG, YOU DONT HAVE AN ESOS?!?! GTFO!!" That it is now. You don't build a toon for the loot. You gather the loot around the toon. Please, if this is too hard to understand, I will gladly explain more in depth.

In all honesty, the ESOS was sickly overpowered. If you don't agree, a big reason may be because you HAVE one and enjoy the overpowered feel that it has, whether you are a powergamer or not. I know many people that have an ESOS and say that it deserved a nerf.

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Originally Posted by Zack77

Believe it or not, it may just be your luck, but the ESoS is MUCH easier to grind for. Maybe now, that you've been running shroud for so long, a MinII isn't as hard to make. But, for the newer player, an ESoS is much easier getting than the 24 larges needed for a minII, let alone the additional 24 for a second ESoS. For the power gamer, its trivial; for the casual/newer player, not so much.

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Oh really?

The only way a new player who didn't grind the shroud will get an epic SoS is if they pike in the dragon raid and get the shard (and the SoS itself), and then pike some more in epic quests to get the seal and then maybe spend their life savings to buy a scroll of the AH. Definition of "pike" (for the linguistically challenged): Non contributing to the groups efforts, a free rider.

Without grinding a LOT of content before (especially shroud), you will not be a contributing member in a group that runs epic content. So no, it really is not easier for a new player to get the epic SoS.

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Originally Posted by Aspenor

Just throw metalline on it and keep the adamantine hardness/durability.

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Full Transmuting.

It would make SoS something special (full old style transmute is rare) and may calm down players.

Know what? I'll let you guys win. I'm tired of arguing any point, and I should have known better. Those of you with an ESoS, or are close to getting one, will go off any ANY nerf, no matter how slight, because it is affecting your little toys. So, know what? I'll **** off, as I'm sure most of you want, and let you get back to your "OMG THE ESOS IS GETTING NERFED!! IMA QUIT IF THIS GOES THROUGH!!" BS that you're spouting. A good day to all of you, and if you DO decide to quit over this: Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

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Originally Posted by Zack77

Know what? I'll let you guys win. I'm tired of arguing any point, and I should have known better. Those of you with an ESoS, or are close to getting one, will go off any ANY nerf, no matter how slight, because it is affecting your little toys. So, know what? I'll **** off, as I'm sure most of you want, and let you get back to your "OMG THE ESOS IS GETTING NERFED!! IMA QUIT IF THIS GOES THROUGH!!" BS that you're spouting. A good day to all of you, and if you DO decide to quit over this: Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.

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Buh bye.
And don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya right back at you. :p

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Originally Posted by Zack77

Believe it or not, it may just be your luck, but the ESoS is MUCH easier to grind for. Maybe now, that you've been running shroud for so long, a MinII isn't as hard to make. But, for the newer player, an ESoS is much easier getting than the 24 larges needed for a minII, let alone the additional 24 for a second ESoS. For the power gamer, its trivial; for the casual/newer player, not so much. Really, it all comes down to this: The Epic Sword of Shadows needed a nerf, it got one. The Ring of Spell Storing needed a nerf, it got one(although it seems like a much larger nerf than the one applied to the ESoS.) TWF needed a nerf, and it got one. They're doing their best to balance the game. If you're getting blueballs because of a nerf to an Overpowered weapon, you really need to check yourself. Why do you think everyone out there is "OMG, ESOS IS MUST HAVE!!!"? Because of the fact that its the strongest weapon in the game, leaving everything else behind.

Sure, you say there's limitations, sure you say that it wasn't as uber as everyone thinks. But why were there threads ASKING FOR A BUFF TO THE ESOS? The reason being because, although it was the most powerful weapon in the game, it wasn't good enough. Believe me, if the devs actually changed it to have two red augment slots like a lot of people asked for, THEN this change came into play? People like you would /nerdrage even harder. But if that weren't the case, why would everyone that has a THF'er be grinding for one? If it wasn't as powerful as it is now, people would be more willing to use different weapons over the ESoS, and it wouldn't be the "OMG, YOU DONT HAVE AN ESOS?!?! GTFO!!" That it is now. You don't build a toon for the loot. You gather the loot around the toon. Please, if this is too hard to understand, I will gladly explain more in depth.

In all honesty, the ESOS was sickly overpowered. If you don't agree, a big reason may be because you HAVE one and enjoy the overpowered feel that it has, whether you are a powergamer or not. I know many people that have an ESOS and say that it deserved a nerf.

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It didnt leave everything else behind. It just gave THF users something to get excited about at lev 20 (as it should be). some TWF builds still beat (and will still do so post nerfgate5) a ESoS speced toon with lev 11:eek: weapons. That is the real problem. A lev 20 epic weapon should be able to beat any lev 11 weapon in all cases.

I guess you also think greensteel should be nerfed also?

to Zack77

toon names: Incinirate/Scracher/Pulverize/Saave/Intimidate/Extterminate/Annihillate/Assacinate/Concecrate.


sorry for this off topic jab at ya:

you may want to change your toon names cause you wont be Annihillating, Pulverizing, Incinerating, Extterminating anything after Nerfgate5 goes online.

Keep Scracher, maybe since all we will be doing is scratching stuff

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

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Originally Posted by Mellkor

to Zack77

toon names: Incinirate/Scracher/Pulverize/Saave/Intimidate/Extterminate/Annihillate/Assacinate/Concecrate.


sorry for this off topic jab at ya:

you may want to change your toon names cause you wont be Annihillating, Pulverizing, Incinerating, Extterminating anything after Nerfgate5 goes online.

Keep Scracher, maybe since all we will be doing is scratching stuff

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

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Uh, I think you meant me, not Zack77.

But other than that trivial mistake ( :p ), are you paying for the name changes?
By the way, Extterminate will be the only one upset about the SoS atm...

oops. LOL ya.

stuff like epic sos, ss ring keep motivating power gamers to play your game. when you nerf them, you ruin the fun of many players.

if an item is overpowered, fix it on the test server before you launch to the live server. if the item is available on the live servers and many people have it already, you could balance it by introducing other new items, create mobs that are immune to those uber weapons.

just tested on the test server and the new sos's crit damage dropped by 100. To me, there is no fun to play the toon. I did nothing and my toon suddenly got nerf'd seriously.

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Originally Posted by Mellkor

Secondly Epic SoS is not overpowerd it has many limitations that keep it in check. If you actually used one you would know this. Even in high level content there are times where other weapons are better. Should we nerf those other weapons too? Since they are more powerful than the epic SoS, after all.

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whether or not it is *over*powered is subjective. I could say esos is underpowered because it is useless on many elite raid quests. Epic SoS is useless against any mob/boss with high fortification or high DR to slash damage.

Min2 is overpowered. There is no weapon better than it on hard/elite raid content. And you can easily see almost every high end melee toon has min2. Are you going to nerf it too?

How many mana pots people buy from the DDO store for Epic von6? discouraging people from running von6 has no benefit in business at all.

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Originally Posted by Mellkor

Originally Posted by Eladrin
A pass was made on many epic items. Full release notes will be up tomorrow (I think?), but I figure I'd post this list tonight:

The following Epic items have been modified. New versions have the new effects on them. Existing versions will gain some base item changes retroactively, but to gain all effect additions and changes must be run through the Altar of Epic Rituals with three Epic Dungeon Tokens:


THIS IS BS!

YOUR changes should not cost US a bloody thing!!

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/signed

imho, unless someone is bugged and need to be fixed, no item should be changed retroactively. You could make new version of the same item with a different set of features, but those old version should be left as is, and the players should have the option to upgrade or not. We spend the time to grind an item and you nerf it after we got the item. ***.

The rest of us who have non absolutist views regarding the game and dont gravitate to the single best weapon or build, disagree with all the rants, especially before any of the results can be tested.

You know who we are. We are the ones who dont build for current weapon availability or current content, and instead build on concept, because when the weapons and content change, the absolutists are the ones all up in a conniption fit about it, while the rest of us know that our concept builds worked previous to the change, and will continue to work after the change. We also dont need to make a power point presentation complete with DPS spreadsheets and HD videos to prove what we say. We have complete control over our own concepts we build our toons on, but we cannot control the weapon stats or mobs we currently have to fight in raids that we have in the game.

If you choose to build on or gravitate to the single best weapon in the game, and the gap between that weapon and the second best weapon is larger than the gap between the second best weapon and the twenty fifth best weapon, then you take the risk of being nerfed. In any other game it would have happened a week or so out of the gate. Be glad you got to enjoy >1000 point crits for that long.

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Originally Posted by Chai

You know who we are. We are the ones who dont build for current weapon availability or current content, and instead build on concept, because when the weapons and content change, the absolutists are the ones all up in a conniption fit about it, while the rest of us know that our concept builds worked previous to the change, and will continue to work after the change. We also dont need to make a power point presentation complete with DPS spreadsheets and HD videos to prove what we say. We have complete control over our own concepts we build our toons on, but we cannot control the weapon stats or mobs we currently have to fight in raids that we have.

If you choose to build on or gravitate to the single best weapon in the game, and the gap between that weapon and the second best weapon is larger than the gap between the second best weapon and the twenty fifth best weapon, then you take the risk of being nerfed. In any other game it would have happened a week or so out of the gate. Be glad you got to enjoy >1000 point crits for that long.

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I wanted to quote just a part of what you said, but I couldnt. Agree 100%. They went overboard on the ESOS, the devs knew it, and anyone who got the chance to swing it knew it. Still a great weapon.

ESOS is cool...really it is. But if you really want to claim it isnt overpowered...you really are kidding yourself.

Kudos to you for farming it. I would be totally angered if I finished farming one for my WF FVS. I was really close to trading some large devil scales for a scroll of it.

*BUT* the ESOS really did need to be "nerfed". As did 2WF. Now I am curious how far the 2WF nerf goes. I am curious if they buff the ESOS a little bit soon. Generally if something is seen as weak or overpowered you take it to the other end of the spectrum and then re-balance it afterwards.

Though I have to admit, I have 3 toons that I play/focus on. A Human Evoker FVS. A WF FVS. A WF Warchanter. All of my jobs are "support" jobs and help heal during raids. I am kinda nervous if the ESOS and 2WF and 2HF nerf coming at the same time will turn Shroud part 4 into 3 rounders. I just do not like seeing a nerf to virtually all DPS at the same time. I do not wanna be "chicken little" and say the sky is falling. But I really hope this is not turbine's way to get people to buy SP pots.

Also when I run epic, I generally refuse to "pug" it. I only go with good melees that I know. Sad thing is a Barb that I run with a lot has an ESOS and it's his pride and joy. I totally get him/any of you with one...getting really upset about this nerf.

So synopsis...

ESOS was overpowered...

They may have nerfed it too much...

They may have nerfed DPS PERIOD too much...

Hopefully I am wrong.

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Originally Posted by Kriogen

Full Transmuting.

It would make SoS something special (full old style transmute is rare) and may calm down players.

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Metalline is good enough. You can add "good" on it from the red slot.

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Originally Posted by Durnak

Ever notice how most of the people saying its overpowered dont have one?

Once you acquire one, you learn its limitations quite well.


ITS NOT OVERPOWERED

one more time,

ITS NOT OVERPOWERED

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Then why do you care so much? Why are you threatening to quit over it??

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Originally Posted by Zack77

Believe it or not, it may just be your luck, but the ESoS is MUCH easier to grind for. Maybe now, that you've been running shroud for so long, a MinII isn't as hard to make. But, for the newer player, an ESoS is much easier getting than the 24 larges needed for a minII, let alone the additional 24 for a second ESoS. For the power gamer, its trivial; for the casual/newer player, not so much. Really, it all comes down to this: The Epic Sword of Shadows needed a nerf, it got one. The Ring of Spell Storing needed a nerf, it got one(although it seems like a much larger nerf than the one applied to the ESoS.) TWF needed a nerf, and it got one. They're doing their best to balance the game. If you're getting blueballs because of a nerf to an Overpowered weapon, you really need to check yourself. Why do you think everyone out there is "OMG, ESOS IS MUST HAVE!!!"? Because of the fact that its the strongest weapon in the game, leaving everything else behind.

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Try again.

24 Larges = 16 runs. It will likely take a little more than this due to duplicates. It can also take less than this if you buy some ingredients.

Now, demonstrate how you obtain a Scroll, Seal, Shard, and base item in 16 runs or less, keeping in mind that epic quests generally take as long, or longer than Shrouds.

You will not be able to do so, as the scroll alone is 1:1,900 from trash mobs. And unless you are soloing, every single person in there is competing with you.

People went after the epic SoS because it was actually a valid reason to run epics.

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In all honesty, the ESOS was sickly overpowered. If you don't agree, a big reason may be because you HAVE one and enjoy the overpowered feel that it has, whether you are a powergamer or not. I know many people that have an ESOS and say that it deserved a nerf.

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I do not agree. I do not have one, primarily because epic is so boring that even an actual worthwhile item cannot motivate me to run it past the first few times. However I do understand and appreciate that it gave a valid reason to run epics - epic loot that is actually epic in something other than its failure. And it is for this reason alone that people actually run VoNs sometime.

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Originally Posted by Chai

The rest of us who have non absolutist views regarding the game and dont gravitate to the single best weapon or build, disagree with all the rants, especially before any of the results can be tested.

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Chai, we get it. You had a bad experience with a Dex based Fighter in PnP and you're still traumatized against effective characters to this day. Your constant strawmans and exaggerations prove nothing (1,000 point crits? Really?).

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

Then why do you care so much? Why are you threatening to quit over it??

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Because if it isn't overpowered as is, and it's being gimped out, then what have you played for? The privilege of sucking?

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Originally Posted by Asketes

meh..

it's not the worst they could have done..

admit it

I mean i feel for you guys.. but it could have been soo much worse.

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Concur, but the post you quoted (I think) was the one where I agreed with A_D that they could give the sword a x4 multipler on a natural 20 with a confirm. This keeps the "flavor" of the sword to give those eye popping numbers, but it will only be on a 20 rather than a 15-20 (or 19-20 in the case of the barb).

I don't think that would be out of hand, nor would it break anything. Even monsters in autocrit would only get hit with x4 when a nat 20 attack roll was made.

4d6+10/x4
=======
avg dmg: 24 x 4 = 96
max dmg: 34 x 4 = 136

5d6+10/x3
========
avg dmg: 27.5 x 3 = 82.5
max dmg: 40 x 3 = 120

difference:
=======
avg: -13.5 dmg
max: -16 dmg

Strength modification:
===============
30 str: -10 damage
40 str: -15 damage
50 str: -20 damage

Total difference:
===========
avg: -23.5 / -28.5 / -33.5 damage
max: -26 / -31 / -36 damage


Losing anywhere from 23-33 damage per swing on average (depending on your str) is a pretty big nerf.

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Originally Posted by Chai

The rest of us who have non absolutist views regarding the game and dont gravitate to the single best weapon or build, disagree with all the rants, especially before any of the results can be tested.

You know who we are. We are the ones who dont build for current weapon availability or current content, and instead build on concept, because when the weapons and content change, the absolutists are the ones all up in a conniption fit about it, while the rest of us know that our concept builds worked previous to the change, and will continue to work after the change. We also dont need to make a power point presentation complete with DPS spreadsheets and HD videos to prove what we say. We have complete control over our own concepts we build our toons on, but we cannot control the weapon stats or mobs we currently have to fight in raids that we have in the game.

If you choose to build on or gravitate to the single best weapon in the game, and the gap between that weapon and the second best weapon is larger than the gap between the second best weapon and the twenty fifth best weapon, then you take the risk of being nerfed. In any other game it would have happened a week or so out of the gate. Be glad you got to enjoy >1000 point crits for that long.

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+100 rep (****: You must spread your reputation around before giving it to Chai again)

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Originally Posted by Chai

If you choose to build on or gravitate to the single best weapon in the game, and the gap between that weapon and the second best weapon is larger than the gap between the second best weapon and the twenty fifth best weapon, then you take the risk of being nerfed. In any other game it would have happened a week or so out of the gate. Be glad you got to enjoy >1000 point crits for that long.

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This especially.