Let's Talk: Enhancements!

on a separate note - Juggernaut.

if the line simply gave extra damage reduction - without the healing penalty in pnp - then it might work. maybe a static slashing guard effect - d6/2d6/3d6 for each tier.

Charge is out in DDO - so maybe extra tactics dc's? That might be too much if they stack with racial/ftr lines. Maybe it wouldnt, but anything stacking should be viewed very harshly.

Instead of the immunities to death effects/ stat drain/mind affecting spells - maybe extra save bonuses to each - and making a WF Juggernaut immune to the Lob mournland debuff - after all if you are 'just the same' as the Lob, but smaller, you should be immune to the debuff - just like WF are in pnp in the actual Mournlands.

I really like a lot of this concept, but I'm worried about locking out trees. I'll give a paladin example since that I what I am familiar with:

Thematically speaking, I would expect the following:

Defender of Siberys tree---> will probably get aura enhancements, perhaps divine might, divine righteousness
Hunter of the Undead tree---> will probably get divine sacrifice (light damage)
Knight of the Chalice tree--> will probably get exalted smite and extra smites.

All of these are KEY components of being a paladin. You need them all. So if you are a pure paladin, without an interest in a racial PRE... no problem, you are set.

But how am I going to splash a few AP into a racial PRE or splash a bit in another class? That would lock me out of one of the trees above. It would be cruel to take away some of these key components above by limiting the player to picking a mere 3 trees. Perhaps this is the case for other classes too.

Any chance that closer to release you (Turbine) could put Ron on a NDA and let him update his planner ahead of time? I would bet that the answer is no, but I would hope you at least consider it. That planner is a valuable tool to the community.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riggs

on a separate note - Juggernaut.

if the line simply gave extra damage reduction - without the healing penalty in pnp - then it might work. maybe a static slashing guard effect - d6/2d6/3d6 for each tier.

Charge is out in DDO - so maybe extra tactics dc's? That might be too much if they stack with racial/ftr lines. Maybe it wouldnt, but anything stacking should be viewed very harshly.

Instead of the immunities to death effects/ stat drain/mind affecting spells - maybe extra save bonuses to each - and making a WF Juggernaut immune to the Lob mournland debuff - after all if you are 'just the same' as the Lob, but smaller, you should be immune to the debuff - just like WF are in pnp in the actual Mournlands.

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I posted a link earlier( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=290889 ), but I guess I'll post the full version here as well. A few of the ideas you've mentioned here I used in my interpretation of what the Juggernaut should look like in DDO.

Code:

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5 Points Spent: +2% stacking DR/- Bonus
10 Points Spent: Juggernaut I, +10% Repair Amp, -5% Healing Amp, Charge
15 Points Spent: +2% stacking DR/- Bonus(total 4%)
20 Points Spent: Juggernaut II, +10% Repair Amp, -5% Healing Amp, ***
15 Points Spent: +2% stacking DR/- Bonus(total 6%)
30 Points Spent: Juggernaut III, +10% Repair Amp, -5% Healing Amp, Powerful Charge
41 Points Spent: Titanic Transformation - (Stance)

Charge
Usage: Active
Charges: 3/rest
Cooldown: 5 Seconds
Activate this ability to charge forward knocking down any opponent in your path.
You charge 3 feet forward.(Strength Save DC = Character Level + Strength Modifier
+ Increases to Tactical DC's) (like a minotaur's charge)

Powerful Charge
Usage: Active
Charges: 3/rest
Cooldown: 10 Seconds(same cooldown timer as Charge)
Activate this ability to charge forward knocking down any opponent in your path.
You charge 8 feet forward. When you charge, you can now deal damage equal to your
spike damage plus your strength modifier to those that are hit by your charge.
(Strength Save DC = Character Level + Strength Modifier + Increases to Tactical DC's)

Titanic Transformation
Useage: Active(Stance)
Cooldown: 30 Seconds
You augment your body with extra parts and gain the traits of a Warforged Titan.
This transformation lasts until you rest. You grow in size and become Large, gaining
a +6 size bonus to Strength, +4 size bonus to Constitution, +2 Size bonus to
Natural Armor, +20% maximum hit points, and an additional 4% DR/-(total 10%).
Durring this transformation you are an immobile force and become immune to
overrun effects(of any kind). This comes at a cost of -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom,
-2 Charisma, and you become immune to divine healing effects. While in this form,
you move 20% slower and suffer from -15% Arcane Spell Failure. This ability costs
50 hit points and consumes a +5 Repair Kit to activate.

I wanted to note, that while gaining tiers in this PrE the character should start to be
augmented by bits of metal(similar to the earth savant PrE's arm growth). And while in
"Titan Form", the character should grow in size, as well have extra parts added. (Once
again making Warforged the largest race in the game....darn half-orcs being too oversized.)

I think a +5% Repair Amp enhancement that could possably stack up to 5x would be
a great compliment to this PrE, as an optional Warforged Enhancement, that could be
utilized by any build(including ones not seeking the Juggernaut PrE).

***Armor Spikes
I was unsure of what to add for the Tier II extra ability. While a static 1d6 or 1d8 guard
would be nifty, I was thinking that Armored Spikes could be an optional enhancement
that could grow over time(1d2, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8).

***Repair System
If that was the case I thought a self healing clickie would be neat. Basically, the ability
consumes a repair kit and gives a heal over time buff. I'd leave the math up to you, but
was thinking that it would be modified by character level and the bonus provided by the
repair kit. Maybe add an aditional "ability component," for example...Granite and Diamond
Dust, the expensive spell component for Stone Skin. As well as either limiting it to 1 use
per rest, or adding a heafty cool down...so that it can't be spammed, unless it's a super long battle.

Repair System Example: {((1/2 character level)-2) + (Repair Kit Mod)/3 sec/over 30sec} = Max 15 HP/3 sec = 150 HP over 30 sec

195 HP/30 sec with the 30% Repair Amp given by WF Juggernaut
232.5 HP/30 sec with the 55% Repair Amp from WF Juggernaut and the +5% Enhancement stacked 5x(total of 30% + 25% = 55%)

150-230 HP...A drop in the bucket to most tanking characters. And a much needed boost to the Warforged Tanks that have a hard time being healed.

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~Nim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

That's why we'd need a mechanism to increase the cap. (The additional points spent part of the sentence.)

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Breadth over depth. Full unlock of a pre ability, but the capacity to spend more points in a given race+class combo. In other words, take the 6 levels notion, and treat it as if folks had spent the points to get their T1, or T2, or T3 ability, with the other half of the options being just that. Options.

Using the cleave example, that'd leave a halforc barb more points to spend and pick that up if they so chose, and giving them an extra trick.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

This is a clever idea.

We could also consider having additional points you put into the unlock enhancement treated you as if you were 3 <ranger/whatever> levels higher than you actually were, or something.

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All that does is take away high level options, so I disagree with it being a clever idea. If a player wants the class features the player already has incentive to play the class.

Opening up a new class tab seems easy to understand and still open up options based on what you are telling us so far. No need to complicate it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stainer

Any chance that closer to release you (Turbine) could put Ron on a NDA and let him update his planner ahead of time? I would bet that the answer is no, but I would hope you at least consider it. That planner is a valuable tool to the community.

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Definitely agree. The ability to muck about with all the synergies you can think up beforehand and then build it on Lammania to see it is as gamebreaking as you imagined is the only real way to test and refine a system like this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coldin

If it was limited to only 6 levels of that class for PRE purposes, wouldn't that kill some builds like Elven Arcane Archers.

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It would kill the new Ravager III Kensei II builds too. I fail to see how that limitation opens up higher level enhancements for splashed characters more than just letting them select the PrE tree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riggs

Charge is out in DDO

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Why is Charge out? Make it like Abundant Step, except you get a trip roll against everything in your path.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bhgiant

Is this true? I thought capstones were staying pure 20.

This is what I understood the prestige line to be. On the bottom, the horizontal tiers at 5, 10, 15 etc enhancement points would become available at class levels 3, 6, 9 etc. At 41 enhancement points, you would get the capstone but only if you were level 20. Is this not correct?

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Racial PrE is character level, not class level. 18/2 is a level 20 character.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by waterboytkd

I just went through the dev tracker, and I didn't see anything by any of the devs to point to this. Did I miss it? Could you direct me to that quote, please?

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Wasn't a dev post. It was a quote from a PM response Eladrin sent me. I quoted it in a previous post in this thread and others have quoted that post.

Here it is again:

"A 2 level splash could replace all three of their trees with those from the splash class, but due to level restrictions on enhancements they'll probably be restricted to the bottom two rows of enhancements, and won't get the free ones. (Those require levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20.)"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Riggs

No it didnt.

Saying a 13 rogue/7 fighter is a poor choice for a "We need a high hp lots of toughness lots of feats into shield mastery tank" is a completely different point than "Stacking two equal defender lines will be OP"

A tank that is missing 200 hp is still a poor tank - esp one that has a bunch of sneak damage that becomes useless when you are generating hate and agro as your main role. That doesnt change new system or no.

A dwarven fighter that can get +6 ac, twice the blocking DR bonus, +40% to max hp instead of +20%, and an EXTRA +40 hp from a 3rd toughness line (racial/ftr AND dwarf SD) - is massively OP and what all the complaining about stacking was about like 30 pages ago.

If anything doesnt think a a 1400 hp tank with +6 ac and +6 more dr than a different race that can only have 1000 hp is a power creep problem they need to take a much harder look at what 'stacking' actually means to the game.

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HP does not make a tank. Damage mitigation does. HP is merely the margin of error. A higher HP tank with low DR is actually worse than a higher DR tank with lower HP.

If you take 2 defender PREs and think thats OP, wait til you find out it doesnt DPS its way out of a paper bag. How is it OP when it cant even use all of the tools you built for because it doesnt hold aggro.

Ive seen 6 paladin 13 rogue 1 monk tanks that hold agro better than pure 20 and 18/2 defenders, due to not having to sacrifice as much DPS and still being able to get AC and mitigation.

Power creep problem? In order to tank it has to be able to keep aggro on itself. +6 AC still gets hit on a 2 in epic LOB, and 6 DR means nothing if you didnt invest in enough DPS to hold aggro. All the mitigation in the world matters not if the mob isnt attacking you in the first place. Ill take a 900 HP tank that can hold aggro over a 1400 HP tank that keeps losing aggro.

In order for there to be a power creep issue, the new item needs to exceed what can be done in the current game. Spending near half your AP to add a few hundred HP and 6 DR doesnt eclipse what can already be done in game currently. No power creep issue exists.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cyr

Yes, my largest concern is the stacking concerns. They come in the form of stacking PrE benefits (as in they both improve dps not they both improve x aspect of melee which really just means they improve dps), and stacking enhancements on different trees (particularly when it comes to things that almost have to be shared between multiple trees like toughness).

My proposal a few pages back would address the first one (mostly), but not touch the second one.

In short the proposal I had was that you could not have more PrE tiers in a class then your class level divided by six although you could spend any number of points in those PrE. With dkyle's suggestion of racials raising your class level by six for a racial PrE this would mean for example a pure barb horc could have four tiers of barb PrE's split up however they decided, but could not take FB 3 and Ravager 3 (unlike currently).

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Thx. Edited post and included this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ormsbygore

/Fail on my part...
I want to partially apologize for some of my post, as I didn't fully read the one I was quoting. I think this is a wonderfull idea. To bring more diversity to the game, and possably implement Multiclass PrE's(such as Arcane Trickster and Eldrich Knight that I commented on above) as additional options for Racial PrE's...Yes!

~Nim

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Yeah thats the main reason I didn't sat Ravager for Half-orc.

Some other Pre possibilities

Sacred Fist (probably fits Dwarf Best has a bit of cleric abilities such as turn undead and some healing abilities but it gets bonuses to fist dies as well as wisdom bonus to damage - light element- and some defensive abilities),

Dwarven Defender (Like the defender pre's but more of an extension of base dwarf abilities, increase saves vs. spells, %DR, immunity to all froms of knockdown)

Dread Pirate (Kind of a tough bard 0 Half-Orc Prob)

Black Flame Zealot (Sounds Drowish to me - Kind of a mix between assassin and paladin - immunity to fear - posion use - fear aura - Negative Energy Imbue similar to arty elemental imbue)

Juggernaut and Reforged (Polar opposites of each other reforged is basically less forged more hum--errr treeperson)

That there's plenty of others like:

DaggerSpell Mage/Shaper - essentially a TWF Caster that can add his attack spells to his dagger strikes iow you can get stabbed by a DBF

Bladesinger - If I understand correctly its a rapier fighter with some magical tricks up his sleeves)

Swiftblade - This one I LOVE it's a fighter type thats addicted to haste that the more they train into the prestige the better bonuses they gain from haste and the longer it lasts, they gets stuff like extra damage, Blur effect that gest better the deeper you go, movement speed increase (stacks with hastes innate increase), makes haste undispellable, Innate FoM w/ the capstone being an large AOE slow spell

Looking over a few of the old books to see if I can make a few mockups of possable PrE's for each of the races, basically for fun and possible options or ideas to toss out there. I'll look into the ones you've mentioned.

~Nim

Wow, nearly 80 pages of responses. I always knew discussions about character building, more than any other feature in a MMO, gets the players excited and chatty.

I think it would be neat if each class eventually had at least 3 capstones they could choose from. Each one could be loosely based on the prestige trees of that class. Rogues have two already, one fits with the assassin theme, the second the death defying nature of the acrobat. Maybe the third could be something that finally gets players interested in using traps to fit in with the mechanic prestige.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ormsbygore

Looking over a few of the old books to see if I can make a few mockups of possable PrE's for each of the races, basically for fun and possible options or ideas to toss out there. I'll look into the ones you've mentioned.

~Nim

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Awesome I look forward to the results...would love to hear a Dev comment on this...is the Racials being just copies locked in or is ACTUAL racial (or multiclass oriented PPrEs) a possibility still on the table

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nandos

I think it would be neat if each class eventually had at least 3 capstones they could choose from. Each one could be loosely based on the prestige trees of that class. Rogues have two already, one fits with the assassin theme, the second the death defying nature of the acrobat. Maybe the third could be something that finally gets players interested in using traps to fit in with the mechanic prestige.

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I'm pretty sure they already do...once you hit 41 pts in a Prestige Pane you get the capstone...i think...but honestly after a few days and 80 pages of discussion the lines between what a dev said and what someone CLAIMED a dev said are getting kinda of foggy

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ormsbygore

I posted a link earlier( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=290889 ), but I guess I'll post the full version here as well. A few of the ideas you've mentioned here I used in my interpretation of what the Juggernaut should look like in DDO.

Code:

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5 Points Spent: +2% stacking DR/- Bonus
10 Points Spent: Juggernaut I, +10% Repair Amp, -5% Healing Amp, Charge
15 Points Spent: +2% stacking DR/- Bonus(total 4%)
20 Points Spent: Juggernaut II, +10% Repair Amp, -5% Healing Amp, ***
15 Points Spent: +2% stacking DR/- Bonus(total 6%)
30 Points Spent: Juggernaut III, +10% Repair Amp, -5% Healing Amp, Powerful Charge
41 Points Spent: Titanic Transformation - (Stance)

Charge
Usage: Active
Charges: 3/rest
Cooldown: 5 Seconds
Activate this ability to charge forward knocking down any opponent in your path.
You charge 3 feet forward.(Strength Save DC = Character Level + Strength Modifier
+ Increases to Tactical DC's) (like a minotaur's charge)

Powerful Charge
Usage: Active
Charges: 3/rest
Cooldown: 10 Seconds(same cooldown timer as Charge)
Activate this ability to charge forward knocking down any opponent in your path.
You charge 8 feet forward. When you charge, you can now deal damage equal to your
spike damage plus your strength modifier to those that are hit by your charge.
(Strength Save DC = Character Level + Strength Modifier + Increases to Tactical DC's)

Titanic Transformation
Useage: Active(Stance)
Cooldown: 30 Seconds
You augment your body with extra parts and gain the traits of a Warforged Titan.
This transformation lasts until you rest. You grow in size and become Large, gaining
a +6 size bonus to Strength, +4 size bonus to Constitution, +2 Size bonus to
Natural Armor, +20% maximum hit points, and an additional 4% DR/-(total 10%).
Durring this transformation you are an immobile force and become immune to
overrun effects(of any kind). This comes at a cost of -2 Dexterity, -2 Wisdom,
-2 Charisma, and you become immune to divine healing effects. While in this form,
you move 20% slower and suffer from -15% Arcane Spell Failure. This ability costs
50 hit points and consumes a +5 Repair Kit to activate.

I wanted to note, that while gaining tiers in this PrE the character should start to be
augmented by bits of metal(similar to the earth savant PrE's arm growth). And while in
"Titan Form", the character should grow in size, as well have extra parts added. (Once
again making Warforged the largest race in the game....darn half-orcs being too oversized.)

I think a +5% Repair Amp enhancement that could possably stack up to 5x would be
a great compliment to this PrE, as an optional Warforged Enhancement, that could be
utilized by any build(including ones not seeking the Juggernaut PrE).

***Armor Spikes
I was unsure of what to add for the Tier II extra ability. While a static 1d6 or 1d8 guard
would be nifty, I was thinking that Armored Spikes could be an optional enhancement
that could grow over time(1d2, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8).

***Repair System
If that was the case I thought a self healing clickie would be neat. Basically, the ability
consumes a repair kit and gives a heal over time buff. I'd leave the math up to you, but
was thinking that it would be modified by character level and the bonus provided by the
repair kit. Maybe add an aditional "ability component," for example...Granite and Diamond
Dust, the expensive spell component for Stone Skin. As well as either limiting it to 1 use
per rest, or adding a heafty cool down...so that it can't be spammed, unless it's a super long battle.

Repair System Example: {((1/2 character level)-2) + (Repair Kit Mod)/3 sec/over 30sec} = Max 15 HP/3 sec = 150 HP over 30 sec

195 HP/30 sec with the 30% Repair Amp given by WF Juggernaut
232.5 HP/30 sec with the 55% Repair Amp from WF Juggernaut and the +5% Enhancement stacked 5x(total of 30% + 25% = 55%)

150-230 HP...A drop in the bucket to most tanking characters. And a much needed boost to the Warforged Tanks that have a hard time being healed.

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~Nim

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They sound good - the damage reduction would be low given the amount of damage flying around at cap now.

Charge would be cool - but require a new set of rules for WF characters entirely, and esp the size transformation - given the idea of Druids being delayed for like 4 years now due to the same concerns it would only work if no actual size was changed - just a bonus added.

I would love being immune to overrun...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dkyle

It's hard to say whether those PrEs would actually pay off, but given what we know, an option with more possible things to choose from seems likely to outweigh something with fewer things to choose from.

I would be surprised if it was as low as 4 pts, and if that cost presents a major obstacle compared to the power the Racial PrEs bring. I think 8 points for full 20 access would still be cheap.

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The whole point of the 4 tab limit is to address the first issue. Yes, I could drop SD on my drow fighter and go Tempest/Kensai/Other thing for some additional AP cost. It may make it possible for my drow to be more DPS oriented that the dwarf fighter since I'm trading my defense line for a second offense line.

But is that a bad thing? The dwarf will be significantly sturdier, because he'll have more points to spend and have access to the tanking tree skills. Thus, different playstyles are enabled.


Splash builds will likely lose out on the low end enhancement but have greater oppportunity to pick up higher level ones. Again, that's overall more diversity than the current system

I didn't read all the posts. The thread is growing at an incredible speed. Good luck for the devs to keep track of everything ! :)

Many fear about loosing their actual build. This is the consequence of any change: be accustomed to it, what can be done yet could not be done in the future. But that isn't a problem at all if that opens more possibilities and since you can still TR into another build.

Some seem preoccupied by the problem posed by multiclassing with few levels (1-2 rogue, 1-2 monk, 1 barb, etc.), because closing a tree would be a major loss for a very little gain. As some mentioned, some enhancements could be general and not linked to a PrE. The trees could look like this:

Code:

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--------  ---------------------------------
|      | |          General              |
|      | |                                |
|      | ---------------------------------
|      | |          |          |          |
|      | |          |          |          |
| Race  | |          |          |          |
|      | |  PrE 1  |  PrE 2  |  PrE 3  |
|      | |          |          |          |
|      | |          |          |          |
|      | |          |          |          |
|      | |          |          |          |
|      | |          |          |          |
--------  ---------------------------------

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In the General part, you would find the basic enhancements of your class(es). If you have 3 classes, all the general enh. of these classes would appear in the box (so obviously it should have enough room for any 3 classes).

That being said, it's acceptable if we loose some options we have now. This way, ppl will really have to choose -- and thus make some more creative builds than today -- and not only stick to the dps action boosts, toughness enh., etc.

I keep asking for the racial PrE-like to not follow strictly the classes' PrEs but to be designed as something similar that can stack with the PrE. :)