Player Character Balance

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Originally Posted by Pandir

I have no actual stake in the whole Recont SLA thing i can't get myself to play a toaster so my bladeforged hasn't even been tried yet. So i can't objectively say myself if the whole thing is op.

But I find this whole bait and switch argument absolutely silly, nerfing/buffing/changing game mechanics because either the issues weren't apparent during beta or because the devs
have changed their vision of what something should be, is a normal process in a persisting game.
Games much bigger than DDO with alot more resources do it all the time.

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The vision they had was to put out something very nice and they knew people would buy it up. They also knew that they would nerf them after they sold a certain amount.

You cannot be naive enough to think that the devs put out OP things without knowing they would erg them . I'm with you and could care less if they do nerf the sla's, but I only see this bait/switch as driving away players and not bringing in new ones.

It wasnt op until you could tr into iconic, till then it was good.
So yet again we see turbine puts something good in game, adds something else to spice it up and then nerfs it all.
Challenges, terror/nightmare weapons etc.

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Originally Posted by Ungood

...the fact it is an MMO does not excuse that.

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I think, generally, this is what erks me the most. Just because it's an MMO and we're buying
virtual items shouldn't give them free reign do whatever they like.

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Originally Posted by knockcocker

Surely people are entitled to what they paid actual money for in good faith?

I don't buy the argument at all that they've "only just realized" that BF reconstruct "may" be overpowered.
Without it, what do they do? They will be as dead as WF are as melee unless the nannybot du jour becomes
an arcane caster with Reconstruct slotted. In other words dead or relegated to a superior option for an arcane.

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BF should get no more special treatment than anything else. There's lots of other things in this game that are paid for and they get buffed or nerfed all the time, but people aren't throwing around entitlement issues about that. It doesn't matter if you sub or used real money.

I think reconstruct is OP for caster builds, not for melees. I can't assume what the devs knew or didn't know. I do know if you want to sell a product you want to make sure its something really good so people will buy. I can believe the devs might have underestimated reconstruct. We've complained for a long time how out of touch with the player base they are and that they develop and release mostly undesirable loot. To them it may seem balanced, but to us we can easily figure out how good or bad it us.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Eh. I didn't agree with most of the proposals you made. And changing base classes doesn't address some of the major problems in epic destinies. Plus, base classes have more locked into them, since they still draw heavily, in one way or another, from their forebears in D&D 3.5, while the destinies are essentially untethered to anything but the whims of the developers at Turbine. Besides, the differences between destinies can be larger than those between classes by quite a bit. The difference between Defender paladin and Kensei fighter is less than the difference between Master's Blitz and everything in Unyielding Sentinel, and that's without accounting for all the other stuff that Legendary Dreadnaught offers.

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The main reason I went all ham on base class enhancements is to prevent locking in what Destinies are for: customizing your character for epic levels to suit your playstyle without recreating the enhancement system; but at the same time offering an enhancement like system that fits the epic vision of power.

I could have looked from the top down, however the bigger problem is people playing the best combination of classes, enhancements, and items to trivialize most content. Those builds are few and far between. If every class had options that competed as well as working as written and intended abilities, then all content would be equally trivial until they beefed up things to match the new tier of power. Same power creep, just a bigger step is needed this time. LOL

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

The ways the balance against the automatic monk 2/paladin 2 splashes we see, are to lower the emphasis on Reflex saves (fewer end game threats that target Reflex, and fewer Reflex-save abilities that will kill you even if you make the save), and by cutting back a bit on the DCs we have to make on our saves across the board. Also, sticking some more attractive items in class levels 19 and 20, and the capstone enhancements.

The problem with Shiradi (used by casters) is that it requires so little investment, and is so much more effective than most other options available to casters in tougher content--spamming Magic Missiles is cheap, especially with the SLA available, and the Shiradi procs cover your damage and crowd control needs, while monster HP and saves largely outpace even the big booms we get from Draconic Incarnation, let alone our standard 1-9 spells, meaning casters have to blow through SP to get through a fraction of the content the Shiradi caster manages. In this case, I think Shiradi needs a very slight nerf in regards to casters, while DI and Magister (and Fatesinger) need some major buffs to make them competitive. Also, of course, there need to be some adjustments on the monsters' end as well.

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I think changing/boosting the class/enhancements dc offerings will help even the top end.

I do think if they tweaked mobs to work around the buffs players utilize (see current disenchant spamming), that more robust and non-specific builds will be viable again. Again, I do think Capstones need a big draw (like the AP add-in below is pretty good). They need boosting that works across the board; hence the suggestion that they should boost picked enhancements (either here or somewhere else).

Shidari I think, any change to its ability would be considered a big nerf. However I think it just needs a bigger list of effects. With more emphasis on healing and buffing the target. The shield was intense, but I think it is fine to have it.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Your first issue isn't a matter of balance, it's a bug, and you should report it.

As to your second, I don't know how much the devs are going to pay attention to stuff like that, but I hope they do--the faiths need some refurbishing, and some more flexibility. The weapon choices are terrible for most of them, and the power levels of the level 6 abilities granted by them vary greatly.

Maybe the Dragonmarks could be changed to straight-up SLAs with moderate cooldowns, rather than having a limited number of uses per rest? Would that make for a positive change across the board? Would it be too strong in any cases?

If halflings could get a Heal SLA that worked like the Bladeforged's Reconstruct, the latter wouldn't seem to unbalanced, I should think. I'd still imagine the Recon SLA should probably have its cooldown extended a little bit.

Ultimately, however, the real problem that the Recon SLA illustrates is the persistent lack of self-healing options for most classes. It's a shame that the evolution of those resources have essentially frozen 7 or 8 years ago with Cure Serious Wounds potions and Heal scrolls, despite the game gaining 16 levels in that time (I'm assuming Heal scrolls weren't available when the cap was 10). We have epic heroes! We should have some self-healing resources available in-game for in-game currency, not real money (not Turbine points or Astral Shards) that are appropriate for level 28 characters with 800-1500 HP and facing foes dishing out 150-300 damage a swing.

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I think the dragonmarks to sla's with coolsdowns is the best I have heard regarding them since they turned tier 2 and 3 into enhancements.

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Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

You can't just buff the weaker guys. That road leads to some serious inflation, which isn't a step up, ultimately, for we, the players.

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That is why I went all Oprah, buffs for everyone! Just less for some since they are well off as is. :D

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

How about 7 seconds? That make BF completely worthless? How about 8 seconds?

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I can't agree because its cooldown is the same as the spell. WaI to me.

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Originally Posted by Alavatar

Want to make a pure class more enticing? Make capstone abilities grant an additional 10-20 AP.

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This wouldn't be a bad idea. I mean the enhancements have hard enough restrictions preventing double tier 5's, so this would allow you to at least push to get some racials, or reap the other tree.

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

BF should get no more special treatment than anything else. There's lots of other things in this game that are paid for and they get buffed or nerfed all the time, but people aren't throwing around entitlement issues about that. It doesn't matter if you sub or used real money.

I think reconstruct is OP for caster builds, not for melees. I can't assume what the devs knew or didn't know. I do know if you want to sell a product you want to make sure its something really good so people will buy. I can believe the devs might have underestimated reconstruct. We've complained for a long time how out of touch with the player base they are and that they develop and release mostly undesirable loot. To them it may seem balanced, but to us we can easily figure out how good or bad it us.

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This.

I have an idea. Since we already have drifted from d&d why not just give every race the heal spell in the second tier of their enhancements. Then we don't need to rely on each other to quest ever again. Everyone will be self sufficient and really noone will need anyone to do a quest ever again except maybe to pull a lever now and then. We can take down the lfm board and just make this officially a solo game.

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Originally Posted by count_spicoli

I have an idea. Since we already have drifted from d&d why not just give every race the heal spell in the second tier of their enhancements. Then we don't need to rely on each other to quest ever again. Everyone will be self sufficient and really noone will need anyone to do a quest ever again except maybe to pull a lever now and then. We can take down the lfm board and just make this officially a solo game.

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Because then it is no longer Dungeons & Dragons. If that happens a lot of players who play the game for the D&D aspect will most likely leave -- myself included. I play DDO because it's the closest I can get to playing actual D&D, and if the D&D aspect goes away, then I have no reason to ever play this game again.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way.

Of course, there is always the possibility that you have tongue firmly planted in cheek when you say this. :D

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Originally Posted by Aeryyn

Because then it is no longer Dungeons & Dragons. If that happens a lot of players who play the game for the D&D aspect will most likely leave -- myself included. I play DDO because it's the closest I can get to playing actual D&D, and if the D&D aspect goes away, then I have no reason to ever play this game again.

I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels this way.

Of course, there is always the possibility that you have tongue firmly planted in cheek when you say this. :D

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He was being sarcastic...

Yep. What she said.

Uh oh......

is BF Reconstruct the same SP as the spell?

If it is basically just giving a BF character access to the spell, than maybe I will have to look at it differently.

Is a WF/BF Wiz, Sor, or Art (of sufficient level) OP?

How does BS Recon differ?



Anyway, I never said remove it...
I just said it seems very powerful.


So far most arguments to keep it as is are based on the fact that people don't want their own toon nerfed.
(and the whole "I paid good money to be Over Powered, so I deserve it!")

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

BF should get no more special treatment than anything else. There's lots of other things in this game that are paid for and they get buffed or nerfed all the time, but people aren't throwing around entitlement issues about that. It doesn't matter if you sub or used real money.

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You are missing the main point. We are all aware that this is Turbines rodeo and they can do as they please, but changing things after people have paid money for them is not what I would call good business practices. People are not crying because of an entitlement problem, they are just upset how Turbine will bring out something very sexy (knowing full well that they will nerf it) and putting it in the store until they meet a quota before they nerf it.

By all means, balance the game however you want. But you cannot convince me that they did not know that the BF recon was OP before it hit lama.

You can say that rebalancing is good for the game, but I am not so sure if their version of balance is going to bring in more players than it loses.

How about this:

Introduce new character creation possibilities and call them "Colonics."

Let them all be pre-Update 14 and then let them enjoy Menace of the Underdark as well as epic quests and named gear attainment before it was broken or it became charity. Not to mention when the majority of the raids that are now meaningless had significance.

Cheers.

Yes I was being sarcastic but my point is why should one race get so much of a benefit while others are left with no comparable power.

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Originally Posted by count_spicoli

Yes I was being sarcastic but my point is why should one race get so much of a benefit while others are left with no comparable power.

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Because they are P2P classes. If in the future Turbine wants to bring out class/races that are no stronger than any F2P class/race, no one will buy them except some that are interested in lore.

If BF did not come with self-heals for melee, how many people would have paid for it?

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Originally Posted by Recared

Yes the thread is about character balance, not "pure class" balance (actually the thread is about playstyle/character balance). What you suggest is not viable unless you completely destroy the very essence of the game. We have a different, almost opposite concept of the game...

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lol what? You think playing a pure class should intentionally be gimped compared to multi-classing?

Providing benefits for pure level 20 class characters that were comparable to the benefits of multi-classing would increase the # of great end-game builds. That is good for the game.

"Destroy the very essence of the game"... lol really.

So we all agree . . . nerf monks.

Good to see we've reached a consensus.

Snipped

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Originally Posted by Vargouille;Many players have urged caution with any changes, specifically to minimize collateral damage. As an example, if changes are made to nerf monkcher Furyshotters, don’t break monks, rangers, other Fury of the Wild characters, and all ranged characters at the same time. Favor the scalpel over the sledgehammer.

[B

On Synergy[/B] It’s OK for certain combos to be more than the sum of their parts, as long as there are lots of different synergies that don’t end up too far apart from each other in terms of fun and viability.

Multiclassing (ignoring Enhancements)
This could be another entire discussion. But many players thought it was crazy that multiclassing wasn’t the forefront of the discussion, so let’s talk about it.

We like being D&D. We are unlikely to significantly alter or remove core feats or abilities from classes or races.

Multiclassing and Enhancement Trees
• Frontloading and Minimizing changes to characters: Many popular & powerful abilities are “front-loaded”; they are on low tiers in the enhancement trees. This was very consciously done so that most characters could still get most of what they desired without much hassle. We knew this would incentivize multiclassing, but decided that was an acceptable cost. Even with this, during the enhancement pass there was a great deal of outcry. This is something we could make incremental changes to affect, but each change would probably make some subset of players upset, and we’re in no hurry to revamp everything and move everything around. (Giant tangential discussion for another time or place: “Class” enhancement trees aren’t a simple solution to this.)
• Number of enhancement trees: A major part of the original design (intended to present choice as well as help balance multiclass builds vs. pure builds) was the limit of 3 enhancement trees. MULTICLASSING IS STILL CLEARLY AN INCREASE IN POWER (you get the “best” 3 trees out of 6-9, instead of just 3), but not as much as it is with 6 class trees. Essentially, we changed this due to feedback at the time, KNOWING IT WOULD HELP LEAD TO THE RISE OF MULTICLASS CHARACTERS. • Class Level Requirements: The U18 Enhancements largely required 6/12/18 class levels to get “the good stuff”. Both internally amongst the design team and publicly amongst the players, during the Enhancement pass a great variety of class level restrictions were proposed for the 5-tier trees we have now. These included some very strong calls for 1/3/6/12/28 (similar to the old system), all the way down to not requiring any class levels at all (essentially just requiring access to the tree). I’ll take personal responsibility for fighting for the 1/2/3/4/5 system we have today, which was for the goal of meaningful choices along with interesting possible builds. Instead of nearly every build being 20 or 18/2 or maybe 12/6/2, there’s a much wider variety of builds that players consider and actually take. Along with the third Core enhancement requiring level 6,THERE'S AT LEAST SOME REAL REASONS TO WANT ANYWHERE FROM 1-6 CLASS LEVELS AT LEAST. And there are definitely some builds that splash 2/3/4 levels for specific enhancements and synergies. While these synergies do provide EXTRA POWER, they also provide a much wider array of possible choices while still being choices (compared to only requiring 1 level of a class to access the entire tree). There’s still some debate that perhaps 1/2/3/4/5 is too generous, but this isn’t something we’d change lightly.

What’s specific items do players consider overpowered?
Major caveat: Anything considered overpowered by some is also loved by others. We’re aware of this. Anything on this list is also NOT automatically going to be nerfed or changed in any particular way, but these are things we may take a closer look at. There’s quite a few other possibilities we might look at, but these were near the top of the list for discussions.
• Ranged Fury of the Wild
• Monks using 10K Stars and manyshot (monkchers)
• Bladeforged Reconstruct

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Ok maybe I am wrong here but when I read this what I took away from it is what I have snipped above. Ok we are going to nerf the ranged class, but not right now. But we are looking into nerfing you in the near future. 2. We favor and want multiclasses over pure builds because the multiclass is more powereful and we designed the enhancement tree to offer this. All I have to say is WoW! I'm in shock literally. So this is the direction the developers want to take this game is it? I think it may be time for me to start thinking about a different game to invest my time and money into then.

So now the Ranged class is up to par with the melee class we now have to nerf them. Hmmm As I recall a few years ago it was those Melee guys who would not let my wizard or my ranger into the shroud raid because as I was told by them "Your ranged your just a liability we need healers and dps" The ranged class sat by silently saying nothing. But now the table has been turned We see the melee guys screaming nerf nerf nerf the ranged class.

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

they develop and release mostly undesirable loot.

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+1. Dead on. Loot is junk. Almost 100% of the time I just pull the guild renown and the coin out of the chests and leave the rest of the ****.

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Originally Posted by count_spicoli

This.

I have an idea. Since we already have drifted from d&d why not just give every race the heal spell in the second tier of their enhancements. Then we don't need to rely on each other to quest ever again. Everyone will be self sufficient and really noone will need anyone to do a quest ever again except maybe to pull a lever now and then. We can take down the lfm board and just make this officially a solo game.

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Agreed. I was told a few pages back that this is NOT Dungeons & Dragons that THIS is DDO and that they are NOT the same. So Yeah lets do this.

Before spending any time or money in a video game consider the following words... "Game Experience May Change During Online Play" If you find these terms unacceptable then play an offline game which doesn't patch and nothing will ever change. Otherwise you have no right to complain about "bait and switch" Someone who understands the nature of online games cannot be "baited" as they are fully aware of the possibility of changes both good and bad.