Rogue: Rough-in of Assassin

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Originally Posted by SealedInSong

Does this mean I can purchase acrobat staff alacrity and Assassinate simultaneously.

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@.@

Please?

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Very likely, since we currently have the staff alacrity on the bottom of the Thief-Acrobat tree. (Insert "it's early and subject to change" disclaimer here.)

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Hmm...so it might be a bette splash for a horc cleric to do 2 rogue levels and invest in the qstaff enhancements than doing 2 monk levels.

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It depends on whether you prefer the Henshin Mystic's abilities or the Thief-Acrobat's. (As well as the other various benefits and drawbacks of being a rogue vs. a monk.)

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

It depends on whether you prefer the Henshin Mystic's abilities or the Thief-Acrobat's. (As well as the other various benefits and drawbacks of being a rogue vs. a monk.)

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Yeah I like this. It gives us more choices and paths to explore :-) "more = good" in my book. Thumbs up on the enhancements so far :-)

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

Very likely, since we currently have the staff alacrity on the bottom of the Thief-Acrobat tree. (Insert "it's early and subject to change" disclaimer here.)


It depends on whether you prefer the Henshin Mystic's abilities or the Thief-Acrobat's. (As well as the other various benefits and drawbacks of being a rogue vs. a monk.)

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Please tell me you're not changing Assassinate's functionality in any way. I just can't shake the feeling you will, it just seems like something that would happen.

First peak looks really promising, though the half rogue level DCs will make some of those skills completely useless. Folks will try these once or twice, realize everything perpetually saves and immediately abandon them. I'd love for the poisons to actually be something you'd take the first tier of the prestige for instead of the forgotten skills they are currently.

I'm also a bit concerned and a little disappointed with the dex for damage only applying for kukris and daggers. I thought the whole point of the enhancement pass was to increase build diversity and choice, not limit it. Don't get me wrong, I'd LOVE to have some variety in the weapons I use but I really don't want to just have one set of optimal gear substituted for another.

I'd rather have the choice of which weapons I go with and I really don't see why any finessable weapon shouldn't be allowed (perhaps at great cost in AP) to be used as damage. Or even allow some non-finessable weapons (I'm thinking heavy mace for example, or maybe scimitar & longsword as depending on your chosen race as Elves have a special relationship with some weaponry and that is just barely captured in DDO's current incarnation) for a big investment to be finessed as well.

More choices, not less. But please, no finesse khopesh. xD

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Originally Posted by Qezuzu

Please tell me you're not changing Assassinate's functionality in any way. I just can't shake the feeling you will, it just seems like something that would happen.

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I wouldn't mind seeing it change to character levels instead of rogue levels like stunning fist was TBH. Would open up a lot more multi class options that have been slowly eroded over time.

I was disappointed by the whole "Dex to damage, but only for daggers and kukris" thing, instead of for any finessable weapon.

This ability saw considerable debate when it was a high-tier autogrant in the Shadowdancer Epic Destiny, and was removed because of complaints that a Dex-based Rogue build would be locked into a tiny number of otherwise relatively poor weapons for >90% of his XP adventuring.

...So, either there's going to be a universally-available ability that uses the Weapon Finesse feat as a prerequisite, or Dex-based Rogues are going to be just as nonviable as they were before Shadowdancer was finalized.

Also, do Ninja Spy Monks get a similar ability with their signature shortswords?

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

Very likely, since we currently have the staff alacrity on the bottom of the Thief-Acrobat tree. (Insert "it's early and subject to change" disclaimer here.)

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My first correspondence with Eladrin. I have to say, I'm a bit star struck.

I did mention in a post here that I hope that staying within the acrobat line will give greater alacrity bonuses than merely splashing enough rogue to invest in all of the frontloaded staff enhancements.

Any chance we'll be getting a "Let's Talk" page for class enhancements? I'd guess that the sooner it comes under public scrutiny, the better.

Like someone mentioned above:

Why some of the abilities have the DC formula set to:

10 + Half rogue level + Int mod?

With an INT of 48 (+19 mod) (a very high INT, if you ask me), we are looking at 10 + 10 + 19 = 39 DC.

In Epic elite content (and maybe even on EH), these enhancements will be throw off the hotbars and never used again.
Either make 1) the first number 20 and use Half character levels (20 + Half char level + Int mod) or 2) make them use full character levels (10 + Char level + Int mod) meaning the second number will be 25 and not 10.

In my examples:

1) 20 + 12 + 19 = 51 DC
2) 10 + 25 + 19 = 54 DC

I also have to lend my voice to people's concerns that daggers and kukris will overshadow other finessable weapons needlessly.

I think it's absolutely wonderful to buff underused weapons but not to the point where they become the de facto best-in-slot weapon. Kensais, acrobats choosing (or switching) between THF and TWF, barbarians being able to use most two-handers, etc. is great game design. We want diversity and flexibility based off equally good decisions, not a clear best choice.

Khopeshes and eSoS were and are bad design. As others have said, 99% of artificers only using repeaters is bad design.

Since this is still in development, I strongly recommend putting an equal amount of enhancements that promote weapon diversity rather than pigeon-holing.

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Originally Posted by SealedInSong

I also have to lend my voice to people's concerns that daggers and kukris will overshadow other finessable weapons needlessly.

I think it's absolutely wonderful to buff underused weapons but not to the point where they become the de facto best-in-slot weapon. Kensais, acrobats choosing (or switching) between THF and TWF, barbarians being able to use most two-handers, etc. is great game design. We want diversity and flexibility based off equally good decisions, not a clear best choice.

Khopeshes and eSoS were and are bad design. As others have said, 99% of artificers only using repeaters is bad design.

Since this is still in development, I strongly recommend putting an equal amount of enhancements that promote weapon diversity rather than pigeon-holing.

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Very well said. It would be great to be able to use a variety of weapons without completely gimping your DPS.

Pigeon-holing should be avoided at all costs. The feathers get all sticky...

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Originally Posted by Ayseifn

I wouldn't mind seeing it change to character levels instead of rogue levels like stunning fist was TBH. Would open up a lot more multi class options that have been slowly eroded over time.

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Dude heck no, what are you thinking? Assassinate is a rogue thing and should always stay a rogue thing. The devs would be stupid to change that. Yes it would open it up builds, but that would also make some people want to shy away from the rogue capstone as well as many other things.

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

Very likely, since we currently have the staff alacrity on the bottom of the Thief-Acrobat tree. (Insert "it's early and subject to change" disclaimer here.)

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If you ask me, i don't like the idea of giving out a signature feature of Acrobats like qstaff alacrity so early, for free... :(

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Originally Posted by Arkantios

Dude heck no, what are you thinking? Assassinate is a rogue thing and should always stay a rogue thing. The devs would be stupid to change that. Yes it would open it up builds, but that would also make some people want to shy away from the rogue capstone as well as many other things.

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They announced in the broad enhancement thread that halflings will be getting the assassin PRE tree, so keeping the relevant abilities, well, relevant, makes sense. That being said, depending on how much of the mech tree involves grenades, that may be as justifiably thematic.

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Originally Posted by Melt-emi

If you ask me, i don't like the idea of giving out a signature feature of Acrobats like qstaff alacrity so early, for free... :(

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Well you actually have to have the tree selected, and you have to spend AP on it. As long as there are other cool acrobat things further down I'm ok with this. Acrobats have generally had all sorts of builds around it in all sorts of multiclass combinations. Putting this early on will help keep and expand that.

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Originally Posted by Scraap

They announced in the broad enhancement thread that halflings will be getting the assassin PRE tree, so keeping the relevant abilities, well, relevant, makes sense. That being said, depending on how much of the mech tree involves grenades, that may be as justifiably thematic.

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In such a case they may be better suited tailoring each Racial PrE to the race that gets it.

Make Halfling Assassin use 5 + Level + Int Modifier or something with a lower DC to allow for higher levels and the fact it's a racial thing not a class thing.

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Originally Posted by SealedInSong

I also have to lend my voice to people's concerns that daggers and kukris will overshadow other finessable weapons needlessly.

I think it's absolutely wonderful to buff underused weapons but not to the point where they become the de facto best-in-slot weapon. Kensais, acrobats choosing (or switching) between THF and TWF, barbarians being able to use most two-handers, etc. is great game design. We want diversity and flexibility based off equally good decisions, not a clear best choice.

Khopeshes and eSoS were and are bad design. As others have said, 99% of artificers only using repeaters is bad design.

Since this is still in development, I strongly recommend putting an equal amount of enhancements that promote weapon diversity rather than pigeon-holing.

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There is a problem with giving dex to atk/dmg with all finesse weapons though. Currently, the majority of assassin rogues use khopeshes if they have the feats to fit it in, or they use rapiers and short swords otherwise. Adding this dex to atk/dmg with daggers and kukris for free gives more general build options to assassin rogues. If you give dex to atk/dmg for free for all finesse weapons, you will end up with str rogues using khopeshes if they have the feats for it, or rapiers and short swords otherwise, and you will have dex rogues using rapiers and short swords, because they have better damage and crit profiles than kukris and daggers. Which leaves you pretty much exactly where we are now, except that the rapier/short sword group can choose to stack str or dex.

A fair compromise that I think would work fairly well would be to change the first 2 autogrants to be "choose 1 finesse-able weapon. you now gain the ability to use dexterity for your attack and damage modifiers for weapons of the chosen type", which would allow players to pick which two types of finesse weapons they want those bonuses for. I would leave any other enhancements in the tree that specify bonuses to daggers and kukris as they are though, so that daggers and kukris would still be a viable and attractive weapon choice for these options.

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Originally Posted by TreknaQudane

In such a case they may be better suited tailoring each Racial PrE to the race that gets it.

Make Halfling Assassin use 5 + Level + Int Modifier or something with a lower DC to allow for higher levels and the fact it's a racial thing not a class thing.

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I'd really rather they not implement something that's inferior while leveling, on par at present cap, and superior if they ever raise it. Not to mention handwraps as a prime example of what happens when you split a codebase through two parallel function trees to get separate but equal results, and the headaches that can cause for maintenance.

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Originally Posted by Scraap

I'd really rather they not implement something that's inferior while leveling, on par at present cap, and superior if they ever raise it. Not to mention handwraps as a prime example of what happens when you split a codebase through two parallel function trees to get separate but equal results, and the headaches that can cause for maintenance.

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Frankly, if the character isn't a rogue, the assassin stuff should be inferior. Otherwise you end up with Halfling Assassin doing nothing unless you're a Halfling Rogue with access to Assassin anyway.

Well, if the Assassinate DC for Halflings is based on Rogue level, not character level, it makes the Halfling PrE something of a cruel joke. I mean, even more of a cruel joke than absurdly-low DC's already do.

Assassinate is already a marginal ability, given that it is only really usable if you're soloing or playing in a Permadeath guild. Few parties are willing to, or have the discipline to, give you the time to use stealth and make the approach without alerting the monster. If the ability is also unreliable when used, that number will drop from few parties to zero parties.

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Originally Posted by TreknaQudane

Frankly, if the character isn't a rogue, the assassin stuff should be inferior. Otherwise you end up with Halfling Assassin doing nothing unless you're a Halfling Rogue with access to Assassin anyway.

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It's exactly the same tree though. The halfling race tree would have an AP unlock to open up adding the assassin tree like swapping in a different class tree, and count character level instead of class level for the free PrE bonuses.

If the dev team were to make a different assassin tree for halflings to swap in then they may as well just make an actual halfling PrE.

Giving halflings the assassin tree let's them multi-class rogue and still get the full PrE free benefits and capstone, or let's them add it to a class that doesn't have the assassin tree at all, like a bard for example, and would still allow the poisons and assassinate.

I might want to fascinate and then just assassinate one by one. ;)