Let's Talk: Enhancements!

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Originally Posted by Auran82

At this point its almost worth losing the name 'Prestige enhancement' and call them something like 'Tree synergy bonuses' because people are still getting confused with what is being suggested.

From what I can tell, there is no such thing as a prerequisite to get access to the old PREs, you simply spend x points in the tree on whatever you want. )

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This is not correct. In order to get Kensei II, for example, you will have to have purchased X amount in the Kensei tree AND be level 12 fighter.


Quote from Eladrin via PM: "A 2 level splash could replace all three of their trees with those from the splash class, but due to level restrictions on enhancements they'll probably be restricted to the bottom two rows of enhancements, and won't get the free ones. (Those require levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20.)"


Bottom line, aside from SOME feat reqs. There is still a min class level req in addition to the AP spent req. for PrEs

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Originally Posted by Vormaerin

Actually, I think it will be the other way around. I expect the other PrEs to be broken up into little bonuses like Archmage, Arcane Archer, and Kensai sort of are now.

There isn't going to be a point where you say "ahah, I'm Kensai 2 now". Look at the Tempest example. There were five or six points where they got some "free" bonus for total points invested in the tree.

Class levels will be needed to meet certain enhancement requisites, either because the enhancement has a level restriction or because its a feat booster and the prerequisite feat requires a high level.

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Yeah, I was going by the tier I at 10, tier II and 20, tier III at 30 but giving the other bonus outside of the actual PrE named tiers it does look like a total of 7 levels per PrE tier. Big changes all around.

sooooooooooo

I'm sure somewhere you guys have a nice general mockup of what trees we'll be seeing. Any chance of just getting the names of the 3 prestige trees for Artificers?? Battle Engineer + X + X

Well, most of what I want to say has already been said. I do think that certain abilities need to stay out of just 1 tree, but that does not seem likely. They will most likely make certain abilities available to all trees within a prestige. However, considering what few tid bits have been tossed our way, there is nothing to get overly excited about.

Yes, you may only be able to get one capstone, but considering the enthusiasm in our programming staff, I think that one capstone might be a good thing from a balancing point of view. Honestly, I am just more curious right now on just what is getting modified on the wizard front over what trees I will choose.

Frankly, I am just more concerned at this point about the gap between a new player and veterans such as myself. Honestly, I think that this could be a step towards a future where veterans and new players finally stare across from each other on an even footing.

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Originally Posted by Meat-Head

I get this, but is it really too tricky to have a required general class enh for a PrE? Maybe the required box can have a yellow border or something. The tooltip on the PrE could show your progress toward the PrE, etc.

What you have proposed here is probably more complicated than they will do even though it's not THAT bad.

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The problem is less one of having certain enhancements required for a given PrE, it is that certain enhancements, for example Sneak Attack Training (increased SA damage) for rogues is highly desirable regardless of PrE, even though it is only required for Assassin. Putting it in the Assassin Tree essentially forces all rogues to put points in that tree, unless there is an equally powerful and mutually exclusive enhancement in both other trees.

If there is an equally powerful, but mutually exclusive enhancement in both other trees, where does an Assass/robat or Assass/aninc spend their secondary tree points?

Worse still, if Haste boost (currently required for acrobat) is in the acrobat tree and sneak attack damage (currently required for assassin) is in the assassin tree, do mechanics get equally powerful enhancements in their tree, or are they "forced" (in order to have an acceptable build) to take all 3 trees? That would be a huge blow to multi-classing.

Same deal with fighter strength and toughness, barbarian rage enhancements, sorc/wiz/clr/fvs spell power lines, etc.

If you copy them across all trees, they either have to stack, or be mutually exclusive, but unless all low tier enhancements are the same across all trees, you restrict build choices for any character who wants a secondary tree in their main class to taking the low-tier enhancements they haven't locked out in order to get the higher tier enhancements they want.

Until we actually see it, we can't know how good/bad it will actually be. But since Vargouille plainly stated that they are still working that out, it seems like a great time to speak up and say, "Do not pigeonhole basic class abilities into specific trees"

I don't see how, for instance, creating a "Rogue" tab alongside the "Acrobat", "Assassin", and "Mechanic" tabs is any more difficult than trying to determine which abilities go in which tabs, and how to balance them against each other so that players are not locked out of multi-classing some classes, or otherwise constrained to certain build choices in order to not "gimp" themselves out of groups and raids.

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Originally Posted by Meat-Head

This is not correct. In order to get Kensei II, for example, you will have to have purchased X amount in the Kensei tree AND be level 12 fighter.

Interestingly, even if you only have 2 rogue levels, you'll have full access to the rogue trees. BUT, you would never get the PrEs because you would not qualify based on class level.
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Bottom line, aside from SOME feat reqs. There is still a min class level req in addition to the AP spent req.

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I don't believe that all enhancements within a class are going to be available regardless of class-level. It is more reasonable to assume that class-level requirements will remain similar to what they are now even for basic enhancements, so no splashing 1 fighter for full fighter strength, toughness, and haste boost lines. You might be able to spend 10-15 points in a class with only a 1-2 level splash, if all you wanted was all of the lowest class-level required enhancements.

Your last sentence seems to state the same thing, but is contradicted by the assertion that a 1 level splash could take all three splash class trees, AND manage to spend 80 AP between them.

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Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

If there is an equally powerful, but mutually exclusive enhancement in both other trees, where does an Assass/robat or Assass/aninc spend their secondary tree points?

Worse still, if Haste boost (currently required for acrobat) is in the acrobat tree and sneak attack damage (currently required for assassin) is in the assassin tree, do mechanics get equally powerful enhancements in their tree, or are they "forced" (in order to have an acceptable build) to take all 3 trees? That would be a huge blow to multi-classing.

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My guess is that Mechanic will get Rogue Skill Boost in their tree, since it's a requirement. So I can forsee Wizard18/Rogue2 builds will do better traps than acrobats and assassins with the changes,

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Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

I don't see how, for instance, creating a "Rogue" tab alongside the "Acrobat", "Assassin", and "Mechanic" tabs is any more difficult than trying to determine which abilities go in which tabs, and how to balance them against each other so that players are not locked out of multi-classing some classes, or otherwise constrained to certain build choices in order to not "gimp" themselves out of groups and raids.

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Agree. General consensus appears to be: Have a separate class tab OR have all general class enh available through each of the class trees.

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I don't believe that all enhancements within a class are going to be available regardless of class-level. It is more reasonable to assume that class-level requirements will remain similar to what they are now even for basic enhancements, so no splashing 1 fighter for full fighter strength, toughness, and haste boost lines. You might be able to spend 10-15 points in a class with only a 1-2 level splash, if all you wanted was all of the lowest class-level required enhancements.

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Woops.. You're right. I mis-remembered Eladrins response to me in a PM. Here it is:

"A 2 level splash could replace all three of their trees with those from the splash class, but due to level restrictions on enhancements they'll probably be restricted to the bottom two rows of enhancements, and won't get the free ones. (Those require levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20.)"

I think that shallow splash multi classing will take a mild hit, because you won't get nearly as much enhancement joy out of 1 or 2 levels as in the past.

However, I don't think that's the same thing as multiclasses are doomed. If taking that rogue level for 1d6 sneak attack, all the class skills, trapsmithing feat, and evasion isn't enough without getting the Rogue boosts, then it will be a bad choice.

But most splashes are about the class abilities and the enhancements are gravy.

Many people are freaking out as if not getting all the same enhancements that are considered "The best" now is the end of the world. There's going to be a lot more enhancements and a lot more options for mixing and matching. You are going to get more abilities overall if the Tempest example is typical.

You do realize that hard choices are actually a boon for diversity, right? If you set up a "general" tab with all the good enhancements, then you are contributing to cookie cutter sameness. The way to create diversity is to have a variety of useful things that each player can only have a portion of. If everyone takes 90% the same enhancements, that's not diversity.

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Originally Posted by Meat-Head

This is not correct. In order to get Kensei II, for example, you will have to have purchased X amount in the Kensei tree AND be level 12 fighter.

Bottom line, aside from SOME feat reqs. There is still a min class level req in addition to the AP spent req. for PrEs

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But that doesn't mean quite the same thing it does now. You need to meet the level requisites to get those bonus abilities, but its not clear how many (if any) of the tree's enhancements will have level requisites.

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Originally Posted by Vormaerin

I think that shallow splash multi classing will take a mild hit, because you won't get nearly as much enhancement joy out of 1 or 2 levels as in the past.

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For the most part, you really don't get access to many useful enhancements from a 2 level splash, other than toughness and sprint boost, anything major I am missing? Any other enhancements you take from those 2 levels are usualy just because there is nothing else useful to take in your main class(es) and you need to spend another point to get to X points spent so you can take some other enhancement.

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Originally Posted by Auran82

For the most part, you really don't get access to many useful enhancements from a 2 level splash, other than toughness and sprint boost, anything major I am missing? Any other enhancements you take from those 2 levels are usualy just because there is nothing else useful to take in your main class(es) and you need to spend another point to get to X points spent so you can take some other enhancement.

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Sprint Boost
Haste Boost
(class) Str/Dex/Con/Wis/Cha/Int
Sneak Attack Accuracy
Sneak Attack Training
Skill Boost
Crossbow Damage
Improved Rune Arm Use
Toughness (class)
Improved Trap Sense
Power Attack
Extra Song
Inspired Damage
Lingering Song
Wand and Scroll Mastery
Extra Turning
Improved Empower/Maximize/Empower Healing/Quicken/Enlarge
Strategy (Stunning Blow/Trip/Sunder)
Animal Paths
Favored Damage
Faster Sneaking

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Originally Posted by Vormaerin

But most splashes are about the class abilities and the enhancements are gravy.

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I'm not too concerned about splashes, but I do think effectively blocking their enhancements from being even remotely viable options is a negative to build customization, and I think, ultimately fewer tough decisions. The obvious choice of not spending one of your three trees on a two level splash means we don't get to make the non-obvious choices of whether to spend APs in a dead-end tree we'll never get PrE bonus ranks from.

My biggest concern is deep multiclassing. Those splits are almost always about PrEs, and I doubt that will change. If anything, I expect enhancements to get even more important, and feats and class features less important by comparison. Giving up not only the higher tier PrE of a primary class, but an entire third of the rest of the enhancements of the primary class, raises the bar significantly on how powerful a TierI has to be in order to be worth the costs. I'm not sure any current TierIs really fit the bill.

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Originally Posted by Vormaerin

You do realize that hard choices are actually a boon for diversity, right? If you set up a "general" tab with all the good enhancements, then you are contributing to cookie cutter sameness. The way to create diversity is to have a variety of useful things that each player can only have a portion of. If everyone takes 90% the same enhancements, that's not diversity.

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You are confusing "basic" with "good". Sneak attack damage, sneaking (hide & MS), and trap skills are basic features of the rogue class (In the current SotG it's more like: SA Damage, UMD, more damage, with trap skills and sneaking tied for 6th or 10th place). If the Dev team can't come up with something more interesting for the PrEs than "more SA damage", "More trap skills", "increase dex" for the PrE trees, this whole plan is a failure. If only one fighter Tree got access to STR enhancements, or only one wizard Tree got access to INT enhancements, now you have a tree that's virtually mandatory, because you lose 1-2 points on all of your DCs and some other benefits by not taking it. That reduces diversity by locking up 2 out of 3 trees instead of one, compared to, say a tempest ranger who doesn't care that the dex enhancements are in the deepwood sniper tree.

There are only so many roles and spots in a party or raid, If a baseline rogue doesn't bring a baseline DPS capability to the table, why would you bring them in a group or on a raid? Especially now that artificers bring the same trap skills and massive versatility as class features, regardless of their enhancements.

So if certain classes are affected more strongly than others by the splitting of basic enhancements off into trees (which I still contend is an arbitrary decision without justification or benefit) it is a de facto nerf to those classes, compared to the classes whose abilities are already more compartmentalized.

This is the biggest balance difference between PnP and DDO: In PnP you make a group at the start of a campaign, and barring extraordinary circumstances you have the same group the whole time, or at the very least every player got to contribute to every adventure regardless of their build. In DDO, if a character is clearly inferior and doesn't bring a necessary unique ability, you don't bring that character. In PUGs, that largely means you don't bring that player at all.

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Originally Posted by Auran82

For the most part, you really don't get access to many useful enhancements from a 2 level splash, other than toughness and sprint boost, anything major I am missing? Any other enhancements you take from those 2 levels are usualy just because there is nothing else useful to take in your main class(es) and you need to spend another point to get to X points spent so you can take some other enhancement.

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Haste Boost, +1 stat increase, +1 to tactics or damage, or minor improvements to other basic class features.
But in general you're right, a 2 level splash is designed to get you class features, in the form or either granted or select-able feats and skill options.

Rather that wax poetically about hypothetical . . . let's see what we actually won't and won't be able to do under this proposed system. Let's see what builds are changed, and will those changes necessarily gimp a build.

We won't be able to do that without a LOT more detail that we have now. It's time to show us the full monte.

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Originally Posted by dkyle

I'm not too concerned about splashes, but I do think effectively blocking their enhancements from being even remotely viable options is a negative to build customization, and I think, ultimately fewer tough decisions. The obvious choice of not spending one of your three trees on a two level splash means we don't get to make the non-obvious choices of whether to spend APs in a dead-end tree we'll never get PrE bonus ranks from.

My biggest concern is deep multiclassing. Those splits are almost always about PrEs, and I doubt that will change. If anything, I expect enhancements to get even more important, and feats and class features less important by comparison. Giving up not only the higher tier PrE of a primary class, but an entire third of the rest of the enhancements of the primary class, raises the bar significantly on how powerful a TierI has to be in order to be worth the costs. I'm not sure any current TierIs really fit the bill.

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I think that is just going to turn into a choice on what race to take to even it out, tbh. Racial PrE combines total levels so deep splashes end up with the potential of 1 capstone PrE still and 2 other PrE trees. The end result is no build regardless of splashing, deep splashing, or pure classing is denied a capstone and the potential for a lot of choices in the other PrE trees. It limits some options but opens up higher level options previous unavailable in the enhancements.

Horc 12/6/2 split can still take ravager III and capstone, for example, and hit tier II in another PrE. This costs 41 AP plus the cost of opening ravager and 20 points spent for the tier II. That should leave a few more for some customization. Dropping the ravager capstone going tier III ravager frees 11 more AP for a tier I PrE in one class. A tier III, tier II, and tier I on a 12/6/2 split was very much impossible before and a possibility looking at the change. If the goal of the split was the PrE's that still looks possible to me.

No matter how we look at it every character is still limited to 3 trees. Multi-class at least get more choices in the trees available.

If Turbine does it right this is better for the deep splashes because in theory those higher level enhancements should be better than lower level enhancements from the other classes. That part intrigues me.

I can see a lot of builds losing something but expect what they gain to be worth more in the long run if I am understanding it after the clarifications.

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Originally Posted by Aashrym

I think that is just going to turn into a choice on what race to take to even it out, tbh. Racial PrE combines total levels so deep splashes end up with the potential of 1 capstone PrE still and 2 other PrE trees. The end result is no build regardless of splashing, deep splashing, or pure classing is denied a capstone and the potential for a lot of choices in the other PrE trees. It limits some options but opens up higher level options previous unavailable in the enhancements.

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Originally Posted by Meat-Head

Woops.. You're right. I mis-remembered Eladrins response to me in a PM. Here it is:

"A 2 level splash could replace all three of their trees with those from the splash class, but due to level restrictions on enhancements they'll probably be restricted to the bottom two rows of enhancements, and won't get the free ones. (Those require levels 3/6/9/12/15/18/20.)"

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So no capstone for non-pure classes (unless racial PrEs offer capstones), no tier 3 PrE with fewer than 18 levels, etc.

Another possible option would be to shift abilities up or down in other trees, rather than remove them altogether. For instance:

Sneak Attack Training
Assassin: 5 ranks, at 1/3/6/10/15
Acrobat: 3 ranks, at 10/13/17 plus some low-tier enhancements for q-staves specifically.
Mechanic: 3 ranks, at 14/17/20 plus 2 ranks X-bow/repeater only at 3/7

A full mechanic/assassin would end up with even more SA than they could currently get, but wouldn't have many points to spend outside of those two trees. Eladrin mentioned something similar about assassin dex I and II existing alongside acrobat dex I and II.

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Originally Posted by Aashrym

I think that is just going to turn into a choice on what race to take to even it out, tbh. Racial PrE combines total levels so deep splashes end up with the potential of 1 capstone PrE still and 2 other PrE trees.

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And I don't like this, because it make racial choices obvious and inflexible.

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Horc 12/6/2 split can still take ravager III and capstone, for example, and hit tier II in another PrE. This costs 41 AP plus the cost of opening ravager and 20 points spent for the tier II. That should leave a few more for some customization. Dropping the ravager capstone going tier III ravager frees 11 more AP for a tier I PrE in one class. A tier III, tier II, and tier I on a 12/6/2 split was very much impossible before and a possibility looking at the change. If the goal of the split was the PrE's that still looks possible to me.

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Racial PrEs provide absolutely no benefit to 12/6/2 splits that 18/2 splits also don't get. It's backwards to look at that tier III racial PrE, and pretend it somehow encourages 12/6/2 splits. An 18/2 could have the same tier III racial PrE, plus possibly another Tier III class PrE, plus, perhaps, another tier I class PrE.

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If Turbine does it right this is better for the deep splashes because in theory those higher level enhancements should be better than lower level enhancements from the other classes. That part intrigues me.

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The more back-loaded PrEs get, the more deep-multiclasses become non-viable. Again, you're looking at it backwards. A deep multiclass gets less access to higher level enhancements. If high level enhancements are the best, it encourages 20 and 18/2 builds.

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I can see a lot of builds losing something but expect what they gain to be worth more in the long run if I am understanding it after the clarifications.

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My reading is, pure builds gain a ton, with little loss. Deep Multiclass builds gain the same benefits from racial PrE, but lose out severely due to the three-tree limit, for a net loss compared to pure builds.

I really see absolutely nothing about the new system that encourages deep multiclasses in comparison to pure or nearly pure builds, and many things to discourage it. We might see front-loaded PrEs that encourage deep multiclasses, but they would be even more desirable if we were keeping the current system.

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Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

So no capstone for non-pure classes (unless racial PrEs offer capstones), no tier 3 PrE with fewer than 18 levels, etc.

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Racial PrE unlocks a class PrE tab and uses character level instead of class level. That was posted long ago in this thread. That would unlock full PrE and capstone. If it did not it would be a pointless feature.

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Originally Posted by Aashrym

Racial PrE unlocks a class PrE tab and uses character level instead of class level. That was posted long ago in this thread. That would unlock full PrE and capstone. If it did not it would be a pointless feature.

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I don't think you can legitimately argue that out-of-class access to tempest, SD, or assassin, even without the capstone, would be a pointless feature.

If it costs more than 9 points spent in race tab to unlock racial PrE, you absolutely lock out Capstone + tier 3, even if you only take one class, or import no trees from an 18/2 splash.

This really emphasizes the importance of race/class synergies. I don't know that's a good thing or a bad thing, but under this concept, it is very much a thing.

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Originally Posted by dkyle

The more back-loaded PrEs get, the more deep-multiclasses become non-viable. *Again, you're looking at it backwards. *A deep multiclass gets less access to higher level enhancements. *If high level enhancements are the best, it encourages 20 and 18/2 builds.

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An option that could encourage deep multiclassing would be to put more benefits in the 9 and 12 tiers: Do you stop at 11 ranger levels when you've got the full TWF chain so you can pick up a second PrE to the level 9 tier, or do you go to 12 for tempest II? Stop at 14 and pick up another tier 1 PrE in an offclass, or sacrifice that level 6 PrE for the benefits of a level 15 tier PrE?

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Originally Posted by dkyle

And I don't like this, because it make racial choices obvious and inflexible.

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Racial benefits tend to be obvious choices for builds now in some cases. Some people might not like the change but it does open up opportunities.

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Racial PrEs provide absolutely no benefit to 12/6/2 splits that 18/2 splits also don't get. It's backwards to look at that tier III racial PrE, and pretend it somehow encourages 12/6/2 splits. An 18/2 could have the same tier III racial PrE, plus possibly another Tier III class PrE, plus, perhaps, another tier I class PrE.

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I'm not saying encourages or discourages; I'm saying it opens up an option that was not previously there and I can see that making it good for some builds. The 18/2 would not have the same benefits, however. The 18/2 split provides for a racial PrE and 1 class PrE. Could be 2 tier III's possibly but not even 3 tier I's because of the level limitations. The multi-classes have more opportunities for actual PrE's.

How good they are remains to be seen.

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The more back-loaded PrEs get, the more deep-multiclasses become non-viable. Again, you're looking at it backwards. A deep multiclass gets less access to higher level enhancements. If high level enhancements are the best, it encourages 20 and 18/2 builds.

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I would agree they could. They have that issue now however as well. A 12/8/2 does not have access to any 13th+ level enhancements. The new system overcomes this with racial PrE's. This could place a huge stress on race but overlooking how important that becomes it still opens up those high level enhancements that would not otherwise be available.

If human can select from a wide variety then human might be the new race of choice in a lot of ways just for that reason.

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My reading is, pure builds gain a ton, with little loss. Deep Multiclass builds gain the same benefits from racial PrE, but lose out severely due to the three-tree limit, for a net loss compared to pure builds.

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Pure builds are risking losing the existing capstones. It looks like only 1 PrE will be carrying it even if it does remain in it's current form. That is a potential loss for some.

Pure builds might also be risking losing access to higher level enhancements in the PrE's within their own classes due to AP cost requirements within the specified skill tree. Spending 41 in one tree and 20-30 in a second tree doesn't leave a lot for the third tree. To hit the top row of enhancements we need 20 spent in either of the other 2 to hit that 5th row. That means by taking any capstone we are locking out the best enhancements available in 1 tree regardless, let alone developing them.

Pure builds have a 3 tree limit too. Not splashing locked out a lot of options. ;)

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I really see absolutely nothing about the new system that encourages deep multiclasses in comparison to pure or nearly pure builds, and many things to discourage it. We might see front-loaded PrEs that encourage deep multiclasses, but they would be even more desirable if we were keeping the current system.

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I think that is the key right there. What we will see will be because race will still open up higher enhancements. Those classes might not be worth the deep splash depending on what the PrE's do offer at what level. I can't really dispute that without seeing; I can only note what the racial PrE's look like they might open.

It's hard to say what is gained or lost yet because it's all still speculation. I can definitely see your concern on the deep splashes not getting higher tier enhancements but they don't get those now anyway.

I would also like to point out that isn't really different from what could happen introducing new PrE's and finishing them using the existing enhancement system. That would be just as likely to produce some higher level PrE enhancements that invalidate existing builds. That can't be avoided IMO. That would also be true of pure builds with the addition of more PrE's and capstones -- they would get more than the splashes. The tree system or not doesn't change that.

I don't think we can finish off all the PrE's and introduce more capstones without seeing some builds lose effectiveness in comparison no matter the change to the interface or not. I'm not about to advocate not finishing those off because of it unfortunately.