First Look: Shadar-Kai Adjustments

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Originally Posted by draven1

This build have 142 standing DC

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Deliberate deception, or just too oblivious to notice? You want to compare a maxed-out-everything Wiz to a sub-optimal 1st-lifer missing important stuff?

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Originally Posted by draven1

124 DC is 26+ DC behind of it.

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And bad at math, 142-124=18, not 26. But that's still ignoring all the Reaper and Past Life differences, and gear differences, et cetera. Compare a max Assassin to that and you're probably down to like 8 points difference. But even all casters won't have the same DC as a Wizard. And still ignoring the additional 6 points from Epic Resilience.

Face it, you made your claim "at least 20+ DC lower than caster's", and it's simply factually wrong. Maybe you were unaware that it was wrong, but it's now been pointed out to you. You going to spin and lie, or admit it? Any difference is much smaller than that.

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Originally Posted by draven1

You just can't assassinate almost anything in feywild R10

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Yes, *I* certainly can and have and will. If you can't, that's your problem.

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Originally Posted by draven1

If the trap-making is super-useful, why don't most people want to gather trap parts on trapper?

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LOL, you link a post where the first word are literally, "I know some trappers use traps."

You want to claim "most" for what reason? I have no idea what the numbers are, but I doubt you do either, and it still doesn't matter. I'm aware some people don't bother to invest in and use traps. So what? Other people do, and find them useful.

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Originally Posted by draven1

Trap making is almost useless

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False. It may well be useless TO YOU. That doesn't make it useless.

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Originally Posted by draven1

So, who's doing wrong?

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Well, since it's useful to me, but you have not managed to figure how it could be useful to you, clearly you are the one doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

Fair, but one of our primary design goals in designing abilities for Iconics is to give players build options for a class that let them play that class differently - A Paladin with Repair, a Charisma-based Fighter, a Barbarian with Handwraps, an Assassin with good AOE options.

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Fair.

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Originally Posted by Steelstar

We talked about adding Quarterstaff to this internally, and landed on "No, because it would make for odd balance situations, and doesn't match with the theme of what this ability is now suggesting you do - whirl your mainhand weapon around on a chain." While this does mean the Iconic doesn't necessarily have innate synergy with one of the trees in its paired class, this isn't that far removed from other Iconics. Razorclaw primarily uses Handwraps, giving it little synergy with the Strikethrough bonuses in Frenzied Berserker; Aasimar Scourge starts as a Ranger, but its tree only supports Melee directly, leading to little synergy with Arcane Archer. We feel comfortable leaving this as Light Weapons only.

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The point being made was about pigeonholing them to a single tree.
But I think that's more about Rogue trees than Shadar-Kai.

The best second tree for an Assassin is... not a Rogue tree, but Vistani.
The best second tree for non-Assassins might be Assassin, depending on build.

Razorclaw isn't pigeonholed to a single Barbarian tree, just "Not Frenzied Berserker"
Aasimar Scourge isn't pigeonholed to a single Ranger tree, just "Not Arcane Archer"
Bladeforged isn't pigeonholed to a single Paladin tree, just "Not Vanguard"

In that same vein, I'd like for Shadar-Kai to not be pigeonholed to a single Rogue tree, just "Not Mechanic".

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Originally Posted by kpak01

Deliberate deception, or just too oblivious to notice? You want to compare a maxed-out-everything Wiz to a sub-optimal 1st-lifer missing important stuff?

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Because, the maxed-out-everything Assassin doesn't have many other option to a sub-optimal 1st-lifer, unlike casters.

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Originally Posted by kpak01

And bad at math, 142-124=18, not 26. But that's still ignoring all the Reaper and Past Life differences, and gear differences, et cetera. Compare a max Assassin to that and you're probably down to like 8 points difference. But even all casters won't have the same DC as a Wizard. And still ignoring the additional 6 points from Epic Resilience.

Face it, you made your claim "at least 20+ DC lower than caster's", and it's simply factually wrong. Maybe you were unaware that it was wrong, but it's now been pointed out to you. You going to spin and lie, or admit it? Any difference is much smaller than that.

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(150+) - 124 = 26+

There are NO
1. profane bonus gear(+2 for caster DC, Legendary Alchemist's Pendant, The Legendary Shattered Onyx),
2. augment slot(+2 for caster DC),
3. reaper enhancement(+7 for caster DC),
4. temporary boost clicky(+11 for caster DC, Arcane Spellsurge + Arcane Insight),
5. gear set bonus(+4 for caster DC, many caster set bonus)
6. sacred bonus gear(+2 for caster DC, Gloryborne Gloves)
7. racial enhancement(+3 for illusion caster DC)
8. Song(+1, Spell Song Trance)
9. +1 DC per ED core, +3 for 1 school(+9, from magister ED passive)
for assassinate, but, there are for spells.

So, can you see what DC is missing on assassin? I didn't even include "Debuff" spells on the list. If I include it, the gap would be far more wider.

Because most mob's saves are balanced around caster's DC, assassin's DC is almost useless on endgame now. Even for maxed-everything-out assassin. The balance for 'spell based DC vs non-spell based DC' is completely broken for this game.

Doesnt make sense if our chain attack is worthless while mob chain attack is fatal, no parity.

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Originally Posted by NemesisAlien

Doesnt make sense if our chain attack is worthless while mob chain attack is fatal, no parity.

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Yeah, that's why they are making the player attack more useful.

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Originally Posted by Aelonwy

Understood. Not sure about Razorclaw as an example I haven't played around with it. But Scourge can make excellent use of Tempest and pretty decent use of Deepwood (which has some melee effects), whereas Shadar-kai can't get full use from either Mechanic (crossbow) or TA (quarterstaff) while utilizing their iconic feature due to weapon restrictions making it very limited indeed. This makes Shadar-kai as a racial option less desirable for a multitude of builds (particularly rogue builds) than it otherwise would be, but as you said you are comfortable with that design. C'est la vie.



Well that's something at least.

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I would think both Acrobat and Mechanic get just about as much from Shadar-Kai compared to a Scourge ranged version of Deepwood.

Mech and Acro's benefit from Guile, Nothing is Hidden, Jaunt, Dodge, Keen Senses and Winter Favored. Winter Favored is weak and skip-able for any build and you maybe already at your Dodge cap which is why I suggested Nimble Reactions that Gnomes gets as a replacement.

Scourge gets some ranged power, heal amp, positive spell power and healing hands.

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Originally Posted by HuneyMunster

I would think both Acrobat and Mechanic get just about as much from Shadar-Kai compared to a Scourge ranged version of Deepwood.

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Notice how you had to add "ranged version" for your argument to make sense.
That's not the point being made.

Every Iconic mentioned has this "This race will obvious be worse at 'insert tree here' than it is at the other two"

Shadar-Kai is different in that you can insert two trees there.

Scourge's key ability and main draw (what makes it Iconic and not just another Aasimar - using two maces in melee) can be used effectively by a Deepwood Stalker.
Razorclaws are meant to be clawing at people, and they can do it effectively using two of the three Barbarian trees
Bladefored are meant to use Communion of Scribing wielding Greatswords.
Sure, a Vanguard Bladeforged will benefit from increased Repair Amp and Communion of Scribing, but it's OBVIOUSLY worse at it than it is at being a Defender or Knight of the Chalice.

Now we have to ask ourselves: "What is considered Shadar-Kai's signature ability?"
The chain attack. It's what every player that's ever encountered a Shadar-Kai without playing as one is wary of, what they're known for.
I'm okay with a third of the trees available to the class being incompatible with it. When it becomes over half of them, I start having issues.

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Originally Posted by kpak01

Deliberate deception, or just too oblivious to notice? You want to compare a maxed-out-everything Wiz to a sub-optimal 1st-lifer missing important stuff?

And bad at math, 142-124=18, not 26. But that's still ignoring all the Reaper and Past Life differences, and gear differences, et cetera. Compare a max Assassin to that and you're probably down to like 8 points difference. But even all casters won't have the same DC as a Wizard. And still ignoring the additional 6 points from Epic Resilience.

Face it, you made your claim "at least 20+ DC lower than caster's", and it's simply factually wrong. Maybe you were unaware that it was wrong, but it's now been pointed out to you. You going to spin and lie, or admit it? Any difference is much smaller than that.



Yes, *I* certainly can and have and will. If you can't, that's your problem.



LOL, you link a post where the first word are literally, "I know some trappers use traps."

You want to claim "most" for what reason? I have no idea what the numbers are, but I doubt you do either, and it still doesn't matter. I'm aware some people don't bother to invest in and use traps. So what? Other people do, and find them useful.



False. It may well be useless TO YOU. That doesn't make it useless.



Well, since it's useful to me, but you have not managed to figure how it could be useful to you, clearly you are the one doing it wrong.

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You miss quoted draven1 as it was clearly mention 150 while boosted which is +26 over 124. The 5k hp is incorrect s that the hp in Sentinel which would hit the necro dc.

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Originally Posted by draven1

This build have 142 standing DC, 150+ for boosted DC. 124 DC is 26+ DC behind of it. And the caster also have 5k hp, high prr, mrr.
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Raiding-Wizard

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As a note my Halfling Assassin with just Shifter lives left to do was 125 assassinate dc with unusual tactics, measure the foe, tensors, rem and yugo pots and both assassinate filigree sets. Casters have to achieve 10 dc higher than melee abilities so effectively 135. My Sorcerer has 140 necro dc unboosted and 3k hp in reaper. Sorcerers don't even get any bonuses to dc's except 1 evocation or conjuration.


ddowiki:- Incorporeality and Concealment (Blur/Displacement/...) have reduced effect. Reaper Difficulty introduces a flat 5% Concealment bypass, with a further 5% Concealment and Incorporeal bypass per Skull difficulty. Beginning with combined total of 10% Concealment and 5% Incorporeal bypass at Reaper 1.

So any difficulty above reaper 4 means both my Incorpreal from Shadowdancer and Concealment from Scion of the Ethereal Plane has no effect. This strips a large part of my defence.

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Originally Posted by HuneyMunster

ddowiki:- Incorporeality and Concealment (Blur/Displacement/...) have reduced effect. Reaper Difficulty introduces a flat 5% Concealment bypass, with a further 5% Concealment and Incorporeal bypass per Skull difficulty. Beginning with combined total of 10% Concealment and 5% Incorporeal bypass at Reaper 1.

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I was tanking Feywild on Reaper 10 and I saw a "miss by displacement" happen.

Not disputing that Reaper can reduce concealment because it likely does, but 10*10 = 100% loss of displacement, so I should not have seen this attack message.

I would do more to add a relationship of the chain to sneak attack damage, like adding blinding, diversion, deception, etc. Maybe have the last core of SDK give their weapons improved deception for a while each time they use a chain attack

I do not like the SLA. Their should be stuff about ghostly bonuses not displacement

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Originally Posted by Silverleafeon

I was tanking Feywild on Reaper 10 and I saw a "miss by displacement" happen.

Not disputing that Reaper can reduce concealment because it likely does, but 10*10 = 100% loss of displacement, so I should not have seen this attack message.

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The formula is 5 + (5*Skulls), not (5+5)*skulls

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Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

The formula is 5 + (5*Skulls), not (5+5)*skulls

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= 55% at R10. Is there a displacement value higher than 50?

LOL all that work in to optimizing the chain attack and nobody wants that thing...

Best thing about this race is Empower Jaunt, reduce the points required.

Add Assassin's Trick (fortification debuff and vulnerability sneak dmg for construcs/undead) somewhere in the tree.

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Originally Posted by Faltout

= 55% at R10. Is there a displacement value higher than 50?

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feydark capstone for 95%?
Twilight's Cloak sentient filigree set - +5% increased chance for miss with Displacement

I'd add Quarterstaffs to the allowable weapons for the chains so there can be thief acrobat SK. Something to consider anyway as it opens up a whole new build tree.

Is this bug still a thing? If so, can we please have that fixed as part of this pass?

I would also echo others with a request to improve Winter Favored. It certainly doesn't warrant a T4 placement with its current scope since it only scales with 100% melee power (vs. 150% for sneak attack) and costs 2 APs vs. 1 AP for Guile. Just adding another 1-point Guile option would be more attractive, but ideally Winter Favored would simply be tuned to keep it unique and viable.

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Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes

I'd add Quarterstaffs to the allowable weapons for the chains so there can be thief acrobat SK. Something to consider anyway as it opens up a whole new build tree.

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Seconded!

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Originally Posted by Xgya

Notice how you had to add "ranged version" for your argument to make sense.
That's not the point being made.

Every Iconic mentioned has this "This race will obvious be worse at 'insert tree here' than it is at the other two"

Shadar-Kai is different in that you can insert two trees there.

Scourge's key ability and main draw (what makes it Iconic and not just another Aasimar - using two maces in melee) can be used effectively by a Deepwood Stalker.
Razorclaws are meant to be clawing at people, and they can do it effectively using two of the three Barbarian trees
Bladefored are meant to use Communion of Scribing wielding Greatswords.
Sure, a Vanguard Bladeforged will benefit from increased Repair Amp and Communion of Scribing, but it's OBVIOUSLY worse at it than it is at being a Defender or Knight of the Chalice.

Now we have to ask ourselves: "What is considered Shadar-Kai's signature ability?"
The chain attack. It's what every player that's ever encountered a Shadar-Kai without playing as one is wary of, what they're known for.
I'm okay with a third of the trees available to the class being incompatible with it. When it becomes over half of them, I start having issues.

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The reason why I mentioned ranged builds for Deepwood was because Aelonwy mentioned Mechanic and Deepwood Stalker that is for both ranged and melee builds. "Shadar-kai can't get full use from either Mechanic (crossbow) or TA (quarterstaff) while utilizing their iconic feature due to weapon restrictions making it very limited indeed."

I have also not mentioned that Staffs shouldn't get option to use Chain.

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Originally Posted by HuneyMunster

The reason why I mentioned ranged builds for Deepwood was because Aelonwy mentioned Mechanic and Deepwood Stalker that is for both ranged and melee builds. "Shadar-kai can't get full use from either Mechanic (crossbow) or TA (quarterstaff) while utilizing their iconic feature due to weapon restrictions making it very limited indeed."

I have also not mentioned that Staffs shouldn't get option to use Chain.

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But that was kind of my point or missing the point... Steelstar mentioned Scourge, Scourge is an Iconic Ranger, Ranger has access to three trees one is ranged exclusively, one is meant for melee exclusively and one supports both. So Scourge can take advantage of the melee tree and still get plenty of use from Deepwood Stalker. Shadar Kai is an Iconic Rogue, Rogue has access to three trees one being melee dagger/kukris, one is melee Quarterstaff, one is ranged Great Crossbow. Rogue is already inherently more limited because its trees are very weapon centric, not just playstyle limited but specific weapon limitations. Ranger has more choice for melee and only becomes somewhat limited by Scourge's blunt weapon requirement. Shadar Kai is limiting rogue to one melee tree and maybe a few support enhancements from its other trees like Fast Movement, Mechanics, Awareness etc. Its a bit too restrictive for my tastes and if I didn't already own it would not entice me too purchase it now. There isn't enough character creation/variety value for me. But Steelstar has already said they thought about it and are comfortable with their plan. So *shrug*.