Let's Talk: Enhancements!

Printable View

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

04-02-2013, 08:09 PM
IronClan

Another more oblique example of how I worry about the new system homogenizing old cool synergies out: Right now you can have a Bard with sonic spell power 80, then splash Wiz and add +50 because the Wiz Electric/Sonic doesn't close out the Bard's Healing/Sonic, and then splash Druid and add +20 (again none of the three cancel the other two). The most "specialized" "Sonic Focused" Bard is using some splashes to boost Spell Power from 80 to as much as 150 (at 16 Bard 3 wiz 1 Druid which also allows +4% crit chance and +25% crit damage) this leaves the Bard with full spell levels (Greater Shout) and using something I looked at recently for inspiration: Hammer of the Leaden Clouds with 21 implement + 120 Sonic SP and Superior Sonic Lore. 25% crit chance, 291% Spell power. Before Max+Empower meta's

I am 100% sure all "loop holes" like this will be homogenized out by the new system. Meaning an already weak class using an already weak spell (Greater Shout) will be proxy nerfed. I realize this is an odd example but it illustrates the point: smoothing enhancements over too much can lead to coolness removed.
04-02-2013, 08:48 PM
Trasak

Varg,

I would love to spin my thoughts in this thread but at this point I am so reluctant to get my hopes up on any specific build or concept until I know what scope the enhancements are being developed on. A dev recap or locking this thread and starting a new one with updated data would be appreciated. On the whole I can give a list of preferences I would like to see in the enhancements but anything specific would be a waste of time.

-Three trees per class with significant variation available with each tree having an impressive level 18 ability and a truly defining level 20 ability that compensates you for not multiclassing.
-A racial tree that blends two different thematically applicable prestige trees for the race from the class trees which still synergize with the in-class trees.
-At least one throwing weapons build, ie 2wf feats applying to thrown weapons and adding returning thrown weapons to the loot tables rather than as a special bonus consumable ranged item.
-No built in cash grabs of any type, the shard AH was more than enough.
04-03-2013, 07:05 AM
Blayster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scraap

Stop looking at my character sheet

I swear I didn't! xD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scraap

I'd actually already suggested the notion of treating enhancement points like skill-points for instance

That is actually a nice suggestion, but I don't think it is enough. Maybe I'm biased due to PnP. In PnP you not only have exp penalty for multiclassing, but you also cannot max cross-class skill even if you have enough points. I find this disturbingly unfair, really, and this is coming from someone with a trapper ranger. Again, just another example, I don't think the problem concerns trappers or skills only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

But they can be significantly better if one opts to... And often are.
(...)
(Dang looking it over now I want to make a 14 Rogue Mech II 6 Arti Battle Engineer, but that is what I love about DDO... the possibilities)

This is exactly my point. What is the advantage of a 20 Rogue Mech II over your proposed multiclass, trap-wise speaking?

Quote:

Originally Posted by EnjoyTheJourney

And that's exactly how I'd like DDO to be; if you want rewards from specializing, then specialize. If not, then don't.

+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

Meaning an already weak class using an already weak spell (Greater Shout) will be proxy nerfed. I realize this is an odd example but it illustrates the point: smoothing enhancements over too much can lead to coolness removed.

What if the intention of the devs is exactly to avoid this kind of odd (using your words) combination? What if they think "bards are not supposed to be caster DPS... let's remove this...". You may find it "uncool", some other people might find it great. You must have in mind that this kind of combo often leads to OP (not particularly in your example), which leads to nerf, which leads to mass cry.

Btw, they *may* add a sonic spell line for bards. I'd honestly find CC more suitable for bards than DPS. Check "Wall of Sound" in DDO wiki.
04-03-2013, 07:06 AM
Blayster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vargouille

We're still here. Reading.

Oh, of course you are! You're just not replying!

I understand that you cannot release info just yet. So, let us play a game here instead... give us a topic, and then we give our thoughts/suggestions on the specified topic. That works better than shooting in the dark, for both sides, really.
04-03-2013, 10:11 AM
kingfisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vargouille

Enhancements. Devs.

We're still here. Reading.

trees. how many? ridiculous arbitrary limitations. done away with or still present and ready to ruin our day? multiclass nerfed to oblivion. say it aint so. stop reading for a moment and start typing.
04-03-2013, 10:21 AM
Ape_Man

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vargouille

Enhancements. Devs.

We're still here. Reading.

Can you please actually give us some information?
04-03-2013, 01:46 PM
Seikojin

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

Another more oblique example of how I worry about the new system homogenizing old cool synergies out: Right now you can have a Bard with sonic spell power 80, then splash Wiz and add +50 because the Wiz Electric/Sonic doesn't close out the Bard's Healing/Sonic, and then splash Druid and add +20 (again none of the three cancel the other two). The most "specialized" "Sonic Focused" Bard is using some splashes to boost Spell Power from 80 to as much as 150 (at 16 Bard 3 wiz 1 Druid which also allows +4% crit chance and +25% crit damage) this leaves the Bard with full spell levels (Greater Shout) and using something I looked at recently for inspiration: Hammer of the Leaden Clouds with 21 implement + 120 Sonic SP and Superior Sonic Lore. 25% crit chance, 291% Spell power. Before Max+Empower meta's

I am 100% sure all "loop holes" like this will be homogenized out by the new system. Meaning an already weak class using an already weak spell (Greater Shout) will be proxy nerfed. I realize this is an odd example but it illustrates the point: smoothing enhancements over too much can lead to coolness removed.

Or the path in a pure class may get somethign more enticing overall; the same damage boost, but also class specific flavor. Like a generic sonic boost for bards that as you get the higher tiers not only has increased difficulty, but can affect more targets, auto song proc, etc.
04-03-2013, 02:20 PM
lugoman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vargouille

Enhancements. Devs.

We're still here. Reading.

Pure kensei fighters need some help.
04-03-2013, 03:27 PM
TGOskar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vargouille

Enhancements. Devs.

We're still here. Reading.

Enhancement Beta. Early Spring.

We're still here. Waiting.

--

But, as I can't help but being just a smart-aleck, I feel the need to explain:
When you presented the tables before, it generated a mountain of discussion that you've probably shirked off. It's monumental to read the opinions of just about every single poster in two massive threads.

Right now, the only thing that will satiate the bulk of the forum is to reveal concrete information about what you guys are gonna do with the enhancement pass. It's disheartening that it's so difficult, it has to span two missed updates before we get some "statement" determining when it's gonna happen.

Now: it's great to know you're still looking at the thread, probably placing that as a bookmark to determine where you are. However, it's not working anymore.

Any bit is fine. For example, what PrE tiers you're planning to work with Barbarian and Cleric, who by this time and age STILL have only one PrE (I would also say Artificer, but that's somewhat irrelevant because it's a newer class). Or, for example, how you plan to merge the Paladin's Hunter of the Dead with Knight of the Chalice: this is mostly personal, but I'm just wondering how you'll make it any different to Holy/Retribution/Protection, or else once again hear the cries of people saying that you're making the DDO Paladin too similar to WoW, hence invoking lack of originality and whatnot.

Both threads have served their purpose. Whenever you're ready to discuss the enhancement pass beta, it's better to close these threads, trying to collapse the bulk of the discussion in a few paragraphs. Monumental task, yes, but not impossible. That might imply you've actually read the threads well enough to condensate the entire discussion in a series of posts where everyone can be up-to-date on the situation. It's only fair: no one has enough time to skim through pages and pages of people basically going back and forth on their ideal way to solve the enhancement pass situation. Focus on the common concerns: such as how the enhancement pass will benefit (or hose) multiclassing, which is a big concern.

Providing us that meat will probably spark new discussion, allow for novel ideas, and make people get excited for the incoming change (or perhaps feed the chants of DOOOOO0000OO000!!1!!!!). By this point, reading is not enough; it's tantamount to saying "we've got a plan, it's almost complete, we're doing the necessary tweaks", but actually trying to improvise as the deadline approaches.

Not everyone is going to be happy about the changes. That's a fact. I, for example, loathe the idea of giving Drow free access to the Tempest PrE, because I find it insulting. I have only one Drow, who just happens to be a ranger, but the LAST thing I want to do with him is turn him into a Drizzt clone. Just hearing about how Tempest will allow you to use Scimitars as light weapons makes my herniated esophagus swell with indignation: I don't want Twinkle, I don't want Icingdeath, I want Hank's Energy Bow for the sake of all that's good and sacred!! If I want to become an Arcane Archer, I better darn make him a Ranger or an Elf, but if I want to do it with Drow, I do it with a Ranger! If anyone wants to make a Drizzt clone, just make him take levels in Ranger, and spend one of his slots increasing stuff through Ranger, while he also gets levels in Fighter and Barbarian (if his stats on the Forgotten Realms supplement are actually fair). I also dislike the idea that you're shifting too much towards FR and leaving Eberron somewhat abandoned, because the thing that brought me here wasn't just that it was a D&D-inspired MMO, but one inspired on my favorite campaign setting.

Now, count my opinion to the bulk of the forum. I don't make even the 0.1%. I'm fine with that. But, I can believe that a larger percentage of the population than just one, or ten, or a hundred, really want to know what's gonna happen with the enhancements other than hearing on the State of the Game that the beta's gonna happen in "early Spring". We're on April already, and by the time we reach the end of April, it'll be "mid-Spring". If we extend that to your corporate masters, will they be as lenient as we are? Because...I dunno, but deadlines are supposed to matter, and I think the best way to prove you're an excellent team is to be ahead of deadline, no?

Well, enough ranting. Fortunately it's been done before the proposed forum changes, so anyone can feel free to neg-rep me if they feel I've been insulting to the devs or to the rest of the forum population. I believe I was fair and polite with all of you guys, in any case, but it's just to express a worry: trying to please all won't work, but at least try to please the majority...
04-03-2013, 03:49 PM
dlsidhe

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGOskar

Enhancement Beta. Early Spring.

We're still here. Waiting.

--

But, as I can't help but being just a smart-aleck, I feel the need to explain:
When you presented the tables before, it generated a mountain of discussion that you've probably shirked off. It's monumental to read the opinions of just about every single poster in two massive threads.

Right now, the only thing that will satiate the bulk of the forum is to reveal concrete information about what you guys are gonna do with the enhancement pass. It's disheartening that it's so difficult, it has to span two missed updates before we get some "statement" determining when it's gonna happen.

Now: it's great to know you're still looking at the thread, probably placing that as a bookmark to determine where you are. However, it's not working anymore.

Any bit is fine. For example, what PrE tiers you're planning to work with Barbarian and Cleric, who by this time and age STILL have only one PrE (I would also say Artificer, but that's somewhat irrelevant because it's a newer class). Or, for example, how you plan to merge the Paladin's Hunter of the Dead with Knight of the Chalice: this is mostly personal, but I'm just wondering how you'll make it any different to Holy/Retribution/Protection, or else once again hear the cries of people saying that you're making the DDO Paladin too similar to WoW, hence invoking lack of originality and whatnot.

Both threads have served their purpose. Whenever you're ready to discuss the enhancement pass beta, it's better to close these threads, trying to collapse the bulk of the discussion in a few paragraphs. Monumental task, yes, but not impossible. That might imply you've actually read the threads well enough to condensate the entire discussion in a series of posts where everyone can be up-to-date on the situation. It's only fair: no one has enough time to skim through pages and pages of people basically going back and forth on their ideal way to solve the enhancement pass situation. Focus on the common concerns: such as how the enhancement pass will benefit (or hose) multiclassing, which is a big concern.

Providing us that meat will probably spark new discussion, allow for novel ideas, and make people get excited for the incoming change (or perhaps feed the chants of DOOOOO0000OO000!!1!!!!). By this point, reading is not enough; it's tantamount to saying "we've got a plan, it's almost complete, we're doing the necessary tweaks", but actually trying to improvise as the deadline approaches.

Not everyone is going to be happy about the changes. That's a fact. I, for example, loathe the idea of giving Drow free access to the Tempest PrE, because I find it insulting. I have only one Drow, who just happens to be a ranger, but the LAST thing I want to do with him is turn him into a Drizzt clone. Just hearing about how Tempest will allow you to use Scimitars as light weapons makes my herniated esophagus swell with indignation: I don't want Twinkle, I don't want Icingdeath, I want Hank's Energy Bow for the sake of all that's good and sacred!! If I want to become an Arcane Archer, I better darn make him a Ranger or an Elf, but if I want to do it with Drow, I do it with a Ranger! If anyone wants to make a Drizzt clone, just make him take levels in Ranger, and spend one of his slots increasing stuff through Ranger, while he also gets levels in Fighter and Barbarian (if his stats on the Forgotten Realms supplement are actually fair). I also dislike the idea that you're shifting too much towards FR and leaving Eberron somewhat abandoned, because the thing that brought me here wasn't just that it was a D&D-inspired MMO, but one inspired on my favorite campaign setting.

Now, count my opinion to the bulk of the forum. I don't make even the 0.1%. I'm fine with that. But, I can believe that a larger percentage of the population than just one, or ten, or a hundred, really want to know what's gonna happen with the enhancements other than hearing on the State of the Game that the beta's gonna happen in "early Spring". We're on April already, and by the time we reach the end of April, it'll be "mid-Spring". If we extend that to your corporate masters, will they be as lenient as we are? Because...I dunno, but deadlines are supposed to matter, and I think the best way to prove you're an excellent team is to be ahead of deadline, no?

Well, enough ranting. Fortunately it's been done before the proposed forum changes, so anyone can feel free to neg-rep me if they feel I've been insulting to the devs or to the rest of the forum population. I believe I was fair and polite with all of you guys, in any case, but it's just to express a worry: trying to please all won't work, but at least try to please the majority...

I had a similar initial reaction to the Drow Tempest thing, and I love having drow characters.

Then I realized the potential for crazy fun with being able to be a Tempest, and not a ranger.

Tempest Vulkoorim FvS Divine Avenger? Yes, that's my main plan...but...

Tempest Pure Monk with WAY TOO MANY ATTACKS

Tempest Druid with mostly-dumped STR, using DEX and WIS as primary stats driving dual flame-blades and scimitars

Tempest Bard VotS or Warchanter

Tempest Pure Rogue

Tempest Scimitar Kensai

Tempest Dual-wielding Barb

I look at it this way - the reason for scimitars isn't Drizz't, but that Eberron drow have the Vulkoorim Dervishes. Drizz't doesn't treat his as light weapons, but the dervishes would.
04-03-2013, 04:06 PM
Bzzzt

http://ddowiki.com/page/Assassin_enhancements
I ran across this which lists a preview that snuck out onto Lamannia and from my look over it, I'm impressed. It has maintained the iconic abilities of the old prestige line without failing to innovate upon them.

Keypoints that I'm drooling at:

Quote:

Knife in the Darkness (0 AP, Rog 0) You gain proficiency with Kukris. You can also use your Dexterity modifier to hit with Daggers and Kukris.

Exotic Weapon Feats proficiency really limits how much some of these other weapons are used. The fact that you can get that proficiency rolled into the prestige is fantastic and opens up builds. I really like this.

Quote:

Improved Assassinate (3 Ranks) +1/2/3 to the save DC's of your Assassinate abilities. Knife Specialization +1 Critical Threat Multiplier with Daggers and Kukris. Daggers also gain +1 Critical Threat Range.

Why just daggers for the critical threat range? One of the best rogue weapons in the game Epic Midnight Greetings is a Kukri. That being said, it's still a nice step towards opening other weapon types up to being viable options.

Quote:

Shiv (3 Ranks) Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] damage and reduces your threat with nearby enemies by 100. On Sneak Attack: Target also gains a -2 Fortitude penalty against Poisons for 20 seconds. (Stacks 5 times.)

Bleed Them Out (3 Ranks) Melee Attack: Deals +1/2/3[W] damage and on successful damage causes your opponent to bleed. The bleed effect can stack up to 5 times.

Shadow Dagger (3 Ranks) Throws a dagger made of solidified shadows at your enemy. Deals 4d8 unholy damage and blinds the target (Fort DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier negates Blindness)

I like these abilities. They're a little bit odd but anything to make melee combat more then holding the mouse 1 button and running my fingers over 1/2/3 (cleave, great cleave, sunder/trip/imp sunder/etc).

I really love the potential this tree has. The DPS it offers is staggeringly fantastic and if the other prestige trees are being handled with the same innovative mentality, I'm super-duper excited.
04-03-2013, 04:23 PM
dlsidhe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bzzzt

http://ddowiki.com/page/Assassin_enhancements
I ran across this which lists a preview that snuck out onto Lamannia and from my look over it, I'm impressed. It has maintained the iconic abilities of the old prestige line without failing to innovate upon them.

Keypoints that I'm drooling at:

Exotic Weapon Feats proficiency really limits how much some of these other weapons are used. The fact that you can get that proficiency rolled into the prestige is fantastic and opens up builds. I really like this.

Why just daggers for the critical threat range? One of the best rogue weapons in the game Epic Midnight Greetings is a Kukri. That being said, it's still a nice step towards opening other weapon types up to being viable options.

I like these abilities. They're a little bit odd but anything to make melee combat more then holding the mouse 1 button and running my fingers over 1/2/3 (cleave, great cleave, sunder/trip/imp sunder/etc).

I really love the potential this tree has. The DPS it offers is staggeringly fantastic and if the other prestige trees are being handled with the same innovative mentality, I'm super-duper excited.

That tree, in particular, is why I'm drooling with anticipation of Divine Avenger. If they make a viable melee caster PrE (especially if they stick with the rumored "on vorpal strike SOMETHING AWESOME HAPPENS" mechanic from the early pre-U9 version that was briefly discussed, add some variety of smite, and some faith-weapons bonuses), I'll be out of being an Evoker faster than a kobold can run from a beholder in the Waterworks.
04-03-2013, 05:22 PM
kingfisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlsidhe

I had a similar initial reaction to the Drow Tempest thing, and I love having drow characters.

Then I realized the potential for crazy fun with being able to be a Tempest, and not a ranger.

Tempest Vulkoorim FvS Divine Avenger? Yes, that's my main plan...but...

Tempest Pure Monk with WAY TOO MANY ATTACKS

Tempest Druid with mostly-dumped STR, using DEX and WIS as primary stats driving dual flame-blades and scimitars

Tempest Bard VotS or Warchanter

Tempest Pure Rogue

Tempest Scimitar Kensai

Tempest Dual-wielding Barb

I look at it this way - the reason for scimitars isn't Drizz't, but that Eberron drow have the Vulkoorim Dervishes. Drizz't doesn't treat his as light weapons, but the dervishes would.

your post highlights why giving out class pre's as racial pre's is a very bad idea.
04-03-2013, 05:57 PM
Artos_Fabril

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bzzzt

Exotic Weapon Feats proficiency really limits how much some of these other weapons are used. The fact that you can get that proficiency rolled into the prestige is fantastic and opens up builds. I really like this.

Kukri are martial, not exotic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bzzzt

Why just daggers for the critical threat range? One of the best rogue weapons in the game Epic Midnight Greetings is a Kukri. That being said, it's still a nice step towards opening other weapon types up to being viable options.

Kukri are already 18-20, giving giving daggers increased threat range evens them out, it doesn't bring daggers ahead (and still leaves daggers slightly behind if you were to have improved critical in both)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bzzzt

I really love the potential this tree has. The DPS it offers is staggeringly fantastic and if the other prestige trees are being handled with the same innovative mentality, I'm super-duper excited.

Not to fellate myself, but here are some additional ideas from page 156. (Also, take a look at the date of the post versus the date the Lama info was discovered)
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...postcount=3116
04-03-2013, 08:53 PM
IronClan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blayster

This is exactly my point. What is the advantage of a 20 Rogue Mech II over your proposed multiclass, trap-wise speaking?

What if the intention of the devs is exactly to avoid this kind of odd (using your words) combination?

If that's their intent then I'll find a different game to play, and that is at least partly why I'm posting in this thread :) If I want cookie cutter I have WoW and Neverwinter Online and well almost every other MMO that have limited or near zero character customizing. Those dark corners (so to speak) of build synergies that are a result of different changes over many years, lead to some of the best most organic multiclassing customization possible in an MMO... I'd like to see them HONOR those nooks and crannies, maybe even put a few new ones in.

The advantage of a full 20 Mech II is that it will have 3 more of the excellent Rogue Special feats, 4d6 more sneak attack dice, +2 Trap sense a higher Reflex Save, and a Capstone that includes +2 INT (more trap skill than is possible for the other build) and an ADDITIONAL 4d6 sneak attack damage, for a total of 8d6 more sneak attack than the multiclass....

You ask that question like a 20 rogue gets nothing.
04-03-2013, 10:33 PM
Artos_Fabril

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

The advantage of a full 20 Mech II is that it will have 3 more of the excellent Rogue Special feats, 4d6 more sneak attack dice, +2 Trap sense a higher Reflex Save, and a Capstone that includes +2 INT (more trap skill than is possible for the other build) and an ADDITIONAL 4d6 sneak attack damage, for a total of 8d6 more sneak attack than the multiclass....

You ask that question like a 20 rogue gets nothing.

Not to mention that under the new enhancement system, there would be a tier 2.5 at 15 and a tier 3 at 18, as well as a tier 1.5 for battle engineer at 9, a tier 2 at 2, a tier 2.5 at 15 and a tier 3 at 18.

With finished Prestige lines, there will be more and different trade-offs to consider even without a 3-tree limit. The difference is, limiting the trees will impact multiclass builds without impacting pure-class builds in a way that may break some currently existing characters.

Giving us more or better options is the "right" way to boost TRing and sales of +hearts. Breaking currently viable builds by removing options is the "wrong" way to do it.
04-04-2013, 08:22 AM
kingfisher

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

With finished Prestige lines, there will be more and different trade-offs to consider even without a 3-tree limit. The difference is, limiting the trees will impact multiclass builds without impacting pure-class builds in a way that may break some currently existing characters.

this is the right way to say it.
04-04-2013, 09:10 AM
Blayster

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

If I want cookie cutter I have WoW and Neverwinter Online and well almost every other MMO that have limited or near zero character customizing

I can't see the cookie cutter you talk about. You still can choose 3 classes, the same number of AP points, the same number of feats as before. In multiclassing you still have more options. Really, I don't see the cookie cutting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

The advantage of a full 20 Mech II is that(...)

Keywords: "trap-wise speaking"
EDIT#1: Forgot to mention this: +2 INT with capstone, grants an impressive +1 to disable device skill. If you spend both extra feats on skills mastery you end up with an awesome +3.
04-04-2013, 11:25 AM
Bzzzt

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

Kukri are martial, not exotic.
Kukri are already 18-20, giving giving daggers increased threat range evens them out, it doesn't bring daggers ahead (and still leaves daggers slightly behind if you were to have improved critical in both)

Whoops, for some reason I have Kukri's stuck in my head with Kama's.

While it bring daggers into line with Kukri's, I cannot think of any named Kukri's (aside from Midnight Greetings) that are on par with the current selection of endgame daggers, relegating this proficiency to "huh, that's....interesting" status.

And this just occurred to me, if the expanded threat works like the rest of the expanded threat, Kukris will be 15-20 and daggers will only be 16-20 (18-20 with improved critical feat or keen +1 for prestige).
04-04-2013, 11:46 AM
SableShadow

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

If I want cookie cutter I have WoW and Neverwinter Online and well almost every other MMO that have limited or near zero character customizing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

Those dark corners (so to speak) of build synergies that are a result of different changes over many years, lead to some of the best most organic multiclassing customization possible in an MMO... I'd like to see them HONOR those nooks and crannies, maybe even put a few new ones in.

If the level / class breaks are all the in the same, well-known places, how is that *not* cookie cutter? :confused:
04-04-2013, 11:55 AM
Qhualor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

Not to mention that under the new enhancement system, there would be a tier 2.5 at 15 and a tier 3 at 18, as well as a tier 1.5 for battle engineer at 9, a tier 2 at 2, a tier 2.5 at 15 and a tier 3 at 18.

With finished Prestige lines, there will be more and different trade-offs to consider even without a 3-tree limit. The difference is, limiting the trees will impact multiclass builds without impacting pure-class builds in a way that may break some currently existing characters.

Giving us more or better options is the "right" way to boost TRing and sales of +hearts. Breaking currently viable builds by removing options is the "wrong" way to do it.

Only reason why certain multi class builds would break is because current options are weak, prestiges are front loaded and people found ways to get the most out of multiple classes along with the right EDs. It sounds to me the new enhancement system would attempt to be more balancing and offer better pros to stay pure or mostly pure. Cant fault the people for taking advantage of an old system and building extremely powerful multi class builds, but at least it seems theres an attempt for better balance and choices. We will see soon enough if thats what happens and im sure there will be rants about nerfing my build.
04-04-2013, 12:35 PM
Blayster

Quote:

Originally Posted by SableShadow

If the level / class breaks are all the in the same, well-known places, how is that *not* cookie cutter?

Unless I misunderstood your post (and that is very possible for a very wide gamma of reasons), I still don't see what you're referring to. No one is saying that you shouldn't be able to multiclass or that multiclassing should be "OMGZSOHORRIBLE", or that you shouldn't combine abilities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qhualor

Only reason why certain multi class (...) im sure there will be rants about nerfing my build.

Dude, I wish this were my post. These are exactly my thoughts.

I'm however done with this "3 vs 9 trees" discussion, this is just tiring since it is plainly based on suppositions. Besides, I honestly doubt if devs are interested in this topic.
04-04-2013, 12:45 PM
Artos_Fabril

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qhualor

Only reason why certain multi class builds would break is because current options are weak, prestiges are front loaded and people found ways to get the most out of multiple classes along with the right EDs. It sounds to me the new enhancement system would attempt to be more balancing and offer better pros to stay pure or mostly pure. Cant fault the people for taking advantage of an old system and building extremely powerful multi class builds, but at least it seems theres an attempt for better balance and choices. We will see soon enough if thats what happens and im sure there will be rants about nerfing my build.

What those arguing against the three-tree limit see as potentially breaking multi-class builds are certain key or highly desirable enhancements being moved into specific trees.

For instance, I'm currently running a 6Art/7Rogue/7Fighter build for PL:Fighter. Which trees the boosts go into would be very important to my build under the new system. If Rogue Haste Boost is in Acrobat (where it is a prereq for Showtime) and Fighter Haste Boost is in PDK, for example, I lose haste boost completely. If Sneak Attack training is in the Assassin tree, as expected, rather than mechanic, I lose 6 SA damage per bolt. These are just some off-the-top examples to demonstrate the concern, an exhaustive list would be exhausting to compile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qhualor

It sounds to me the new enhancement system would attempt to be more balancing and offer better pros to stay pure or mostly pure.

If they were just offering more options to pure class characters, without removing them from multi-class characters, that would be great. In fact, I specifically stated that that is the "right" way change the system, and it would come regardless of the tree limit with smoother PrE progression, completed PrEs to tier 3, and allowing pure class characters to take multiple PrEs within their class. It is unnecessary, and harmful to one of the best aspects of the game, to place additional restrictions on multi-class characters, who already give up depth for breadth, to then limit their breadth to that of pure classes. Since in no scenario are multi-class characters getting more than the 80AP that pure-class characters get, and they are still limited by their class levels, there is no compelling reason to further limit them to the same number of trees that pure-class characters have access to.
04-04-2013, 12:48 PM
Blayster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

If they were just offering more options to pure class characters, without removing them from multi-class characters, that would be great.

Please, correct me if I am wrong, but in other words what you mean is:
"Im okay with buffing pure classes, but not with nerfing multiclasses"
04-04-2013, 12:48 PM
SableShadow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blayster

No one is saying that you shouldn't be able to multiclass or that multiclassing should be "OMGZSOHORRIBLE", or that you shouldn't combine abilities.

Exactly. I was trying to respond to some of the hyperbole ... probably would have made more sense with less nyquil. :/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blayster

I'm however done with this "3 vs 9 trees" discussion, this is just tiring since it is plainly based on suppositions. Besides, I honestly doubt if devs are interested in this topic.

Pretty much that.
04-04-2013, 04:03 PM
IronClan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qhualor

It sounds to me the new enhancement system would attempt to be more balancing and offer better pros to stay pure or mostly pure. Cant fault the people for taking advantage of an old system and building extremely powerful multi class builds, but at least it seems theres an attempt for better balance and choices.

So this basically breaks down into a "I want less multiclassing" versus "I want at least the same amount of multiclassing".

Buffing pure? Why? They are already the best specialist. Buffing pure leads to LESS choices not more choices. A Pure 20 or minor 18/2 splash is already the single best "specialist" at almost every class and role.

No one did anything creative or thoughtful by "choosing" pure, they followed a pre set path of least resistance that gives pre definined and already meta gamed to death DC's, saves, and perks that are nearly guaranteed to be sufficient to be good at that classes main focus (unless the person does something dumb like dumping a main stat).

This is the crux of the debate, people who want predefined pathways to "the best" You already have that...

A 20 Mechanic will be the best trapper, a 20 Wiz/Sorc will have the best DC's and Spell Penn, a 20 FvS will have wings and unlimited zero cost capstone spell that either Heals with full Quicken/Max/Empower, without mana or does 1000 point light damage crits with those meta's without costing mana, a 20 Fighter will have the best Tactical DC's, Tier III Kensai for the some of the highest critical hits, and the most combat feats by a mile.

Why do you want to buff the best? It's already hard to do more than SPLASH, in fact there are only 3 or 4 classes that don't outright break if you do more than splash 3 levels.
04-04-2013, 04:47 PM
Qhualor

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

So this basically breaks down into a "I want less multiclassing" versus "I want at least the same amount of multiclassing".

Buffing pure? Why? They are already the best specialist. Buffing pure leads to LESS choices not more choices. A Pure 20 or minor 18/2 splash is already the single best "specialist" at almost every class and role.

No one did anything creative or thoughtful by "choosing" pure, they followed a pre set path of least resistance that gives pre definined and already meta gamed to death DC's, saves, and perks that are nearly guaranteed to be sufficient to be good at that classes main focus (unless the person does something dumb like dumping a main stat).

This is the crux of the debate, people who want predefined pathways to "the best" You already have that...

A 20 Mechanic will be the best trapper, a 20 Wiz/Sorc will have the best DC's and Spell Penn, a 20 FvS will have wings and unlimited zero cost capstone spell that either Heals with full Quicken/Max/Empower, without mana or does 1000 point light damage crits with those meta's without costing mana, a 20 Fighter will have the best Tactical DC's, Tier III Kensai for the some of the highest critical hits, and the most combat feats by a mile.

Why do you want to buff the best? It's already hard to do more than SPLASH, in fact there are only 3 or 4 classes that don't outright break if you do more than splash 3 levels.

there are specific multiclass builds that can outshine a pure class. whats the flavor of the month now? theres always some mix build that is considered better than <insert pure class>.

i don't want the new enhancement system to decrease options for multi class builds, but i do think there needs to be improvements in the system to make building pure more attractive. i have a ranger that is 18 R/ 2 F. that extra 2 ranger levels and capstone aren't worth it to my Tempest. the extra feat i gained allowed more options that i can fit feats in better. some enhancements are driven more towards certain prestige lines that are kinda weak after Tier 1 or after Tier 2. that goes back to when level cap was lower and enhancements were added on when cap was raised only boosting the enhancement power.

better enhancement options, universal class capstone or choice of capstone depending on prestige (like rogue) and balance to enhancements spread out through 20 levels is what i would like to see.
04-04-2013, 08:14 PM
Antheal

Quote:

Originally Posted by SableShadow

If the level / class breaks are all the in the same, well-known places, how is that *not* cookie cutter? :confused:

The only things I care about taking from the Enhancement Pass are the Jorasco Dragonmark Heir, and the Healing-based Favoured Soul tree.

Then I'm going to make a Radiant Servant/Beacon of Hope d'Jorasco and my life will be complete.

P.S. CLERIC DOMAINS PLEASE!
04-04-2013, 09:43 PM
dlsidhe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheal

The only things I care about taking from the Enhancement Pass are the Jorasco Dragonmark Heir, and the Healing-based Favoured Soul tree.

Then I'm going to make a Radiant Servant/Beacon of Hope d'Jorasco and my life will be complete.

P.S. CLERIC DOMAINS PLEASE!

...got leaked during U17 on Lamma briefly. No real info, but there are domains.
04-04-2013, 10:12 PM
SableShadow

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

This is the crux of the debate, people who want predefined pathways to "the best"

Repeating the same mantra over and over again means jack.
And defining the choice as "either what *I* want or we're WoW" is absurd ... at best.

Creativity in multi-classing is one (1) person; if it's effective, it gets copied.

I'm all for multi-classing being effective, innovative, and flavorful...the whole "Dancing Rogue" thing comes from running xRogue/1Bard to various caps in the various days.
On the other hand, the corner cases that push the devs into screwing up the quests for the rest of us? Not so much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

For instance, I'm currently running a 6Art/7Rogue/7Fighter build for PL:Fighter.

Are you seriously saying "my minimalist gear, PL-only build needs to be just as effective as a best spec build, or this thing is broken"?

While I can agree in principle (any level in any class should, I submit, give you the same benefits of any other ... given what you're trying to do), in practice I don't see this happening.
And it isn't because other players don't want it to happen, it's because I don't think Turbine (or anyone, realistically) has the time n' money to put a system together that can make it happen without borking class combos in general.

Quote:

***general comment***

Can we be done with the whole "zomg! people are jealous of my as yet undisclosed prune-based, rectal-grappling, ginger half-orc-half-human-halfling-pixie build that I yanked out of the latest splat book! Why aren't you people creative!"

People want your current build to work; they also just want a system that isn't stupid broken, and know that the easiest way to stupid-brokenize it is to leave it entirely up to player's whim.

Pax.
04-04-2013, 11:32 PM
Archangel666

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

Buffing pure? Why? They are already the best specialist. Buffing pure leads to LESS choices not more choices. A Pure 20 or minor 18/2 splash is already the single best "specialist" at almost every class and role.

Hello, I'm a pure Ranger, I don't need buffing because I can summon a CR 4 Young Razorcat at level 14 and my Capstone is uber! It gives 12.5% Ranged Alacrity! (It says 25% but you know how that pesky Ranged Alacrity is, can't have it applying to actually knocking an arrow, no, no, that would be silly! It should apply only to releasing the arrow, 'cause that involves opening fingers and that's the most time consuming part of Archery obviously).
04-05-2013, 06:25 AM
Blayster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blayster

give us a topic, and then we give our thoughts/suggestions on the specified topic. That works better than shooting in the dark, for both sides, really.

I'll re-quote this, just to make sure that eventually a dev will reply to this specific post. I'm eager to give suggestions or to discuss possible new content with the rest of the community, but I personally need a subject, otherwise I'll feel like talking to the wind.

Please, a dev give us a (group of?) specific point concerning enhancements to discuss.
04-07-2013, 03:52 PM
robdrew

Augmentation

Quote:

Originally Posted by MadFloyd

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI. It’s been 4 years and I still cringe every time I see it, let alone use it. It does a poor job of letting players plan out character goals and you need the patience of a saint to use it. I could go on and on, but I won’t (feel free to use this thread to vent your frustrations with it if you share our opinion).

We’re re-doing it – replacing it with a tree-based design that should make character planning and advancement much better and also have the added benefit of making it easier for us to implement new enhancements (PrE’s anyone?).

It will also be the foundation for some future work.

It does mean that when this goes live, all of you will have your enhancements reset and you will have to re-spend your action points. Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new. The changed enhancements will also help balance out many classes (think augmentation here, not nerfs). I appreciate that forced change can be very stressful and realize that this will be major inconvenience for those who don’t enjoy having to make a ton of decisions – especially when there are ‘new’ enhancements to digest, but have no doubt it will be worth it in the end.

I hope that many of you will welcome this sort of change, but either way, feel free to share your thoughts and concerns. Again, I invite PMs for those who prefer to voice their opinions that way.

EDIT: See a mockup/explanation on page 29 of this thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=578

Why are you augmenting things? The game is SOOOO easy already. I came back from a long break to try "Epic" Gianthold and breezed through "Epic" hard soloing. Feels like a kids game its so easy. If your trying to make a mostly Kids game then i suppose you have achieved your goals. AFK 1 year. DDO 2 would be your best idea and make it a challenge for every type of player, goodbye.
04-07-2013, 09:55 PM
IronClan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel666

Hello, I'm a pure Ranger

Notice how I said "almost every class"?

That said some of the classes that AREN'T the best at their specialty by going pure are clearly designed and/or historically intended in D&D to be "jacks of all trades" the Bard class for example.

In the case of the ranger, the things a ranger is supoosed to be uber at, don't really exist in MMO's

DM:
"The ranger who's guiding you puts his hand up, halting the party, "something wrong with these trees, he whispers"

Animal empathy, wilderness exploration, long travel, tracking things, hunting down dinner... being in tune with nature... none of it translates well to a MMO where such things are abstracted out and mimimized because "the lowest common denominator" doesn't want careful exploration, atmosphere or "dungeon crawling", they want 5 chests and 1000xp a minute, only the best "raid loot" 100% meta gaming and efficient completions. The path of least resistance...
04-08-2013, 04:33 AM
Archangel666

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

Notice how I said "almost every class"?

That said some of the classes that AREN'T the best at their specialty by going pure are clearly designed and/or historically intended in D&D to be "jacks of all trades" the Bard class for example.

In the case of the ranger, the things a ranger is supoosed to be uber at, don't really exist in MMO's

DM:
"The ranger who's guiding you puts his hand up, halting the party, "something wrong with these trees, he whispers"

Animal empathy, wilderness exploration, long travel, tracking things, hunting down dinner... being in tune with nature... none of it translates well to a MMO where such things are abstracted out and mimimized because "the lowest common denominator" doesn't want careful exploration, atmosphere or "dungeon crawling", they want 5 chests and 1000xp a minute, only the best "raid loot" 100% meta gaming and efficient completions. The path of least resistance...

I don't disagree with you and you did indeed say almost every class.

I was simply pointing out that there clearly are some pure classes which could use a buff and a half because the current implementation is lacking at best. An entire class should not be seen as a way to get Feats by taking six levels and no more. It should be a tough choice between taking fourteen more levels of that class and taking fourteen levels of something else and other than flavour, it isn't.
04-08-2013, 12:44 PM
IronClan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qhualor

there are specific multiclass builds that can outshine a pure class. whats the flavor of the month now? theres always some mix build that is considered better than <insert pure class>.

better enhancement options, universal class capstone or choice of capstone depending on prestige (like rogue) and balance to enhancements spread out through 20 levels is what i would like to see.

FOTM builds are a result of min/maxing by people who are bored of being the best at the predefined specialties that are almost always done best by a pure 20. Sometimes they are a result of tweaks to mobs (Insta kill saves in eGH for example, making Shiradi magic missile nuking even more attractive) that make the specialty less attractive temporarily. This comes and goes with new packs, and frankly should never be in the discussion. Not long ago Archmagi Evoker PrE was considered a gimpy choice. If your reason for buffing pure classes that are already CLEARLY superior at almost every specialty in the game, is that FotM builds pop up, then I think you're basing your opinion on a very short sighted view of the game.

The truth is you appear to be doing just that. For the longest time multiclassing in DDO has been primarily seen as a sub optimal thing to do and has been relegated to "splashing" for the vast majority of the games life, only after ED's lowered the emphasis of Heroic levels a small amount* has the tide changed much. Outside of a few types of deeper multiclass builds that have always been semi-popular (6 ranger 12 other full BAB melee 2 evasion for example) most have been restricted to 18/2 splits that barely qualify as multiclassing at all.

Now a few scant months later post ED's and the curious admixture of slightly reduced emphasis and substantially changed perception it's time to return to the lame splash only pure class dominated days that have been the norm for most of the game? I couldn't disagree more.

I'm bored to hell of that, I'm tired of the bar always being raised to "you must have this many pure class levels to enter this ride" buffing pure class when they are already the absolute best at 90% of the tasks that are possible in the game, is a terrible idea.

* (and I do mean a small amount, the truth is this is mostly a perception by players who used to be dead set against multiclassing, and because this perception is beneficial to people who like to multiclass, no one tends to point out that multiclassing still has the same losses of DC's and Trapping ability, and Spell Pen, and Double Strike, and third tier PrE's and etc. that it always had, ED's have just made them a little less shiny and obvious)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel666

I don't disagree with you and you did indeed say almost every class.

I was simply pointing out that there clearly are some pure classes which could use a buff and a half because the current implementation is lacking at best. An entire class should not be seen as a way to get Feats by taking six levels and no more. It should be a tough choice between taking fourteen more levels of that class and taking fourteen levels of something else and other than flavour, it isn't.

I agree some Classes need buffs to return to relevance... and this enhancement pass is an opportunity to help make that happen. But that's not really a Multiclass versus pure thing. And really it needs to not be strictly an enhancement thing. Bard's needed a severe boost in Spells during that spell pass that didn't happen. Ranger's feat abilities have always been too front loaded, and their later perks too irrelevant or not working (Ranged alacrity being pretty nearly half).

And Yes 10,000 Stars has no business effecting arrows... sorry it just doesn't. if you want 10.000 arrows (or better yet "rain of arrows") add that as a feat w/ archery feat prereqs and free to Rangers at 16th level
04-09-2013, 10:04 AM
Candela90

Well I hope theyll add sth to caster PREs to allow e.g. sorcs to be good not nly as WFs.... Cause Id love to try this class out but will never play WF with that :male: look :/.
Or maybe theyll consider adding WF body shapes... but lets be honest. Some ppl are asking for it from ages and now I think its never gonna happen :/
04-09-2013, 10:16 AM
HungarianRhapsody

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

The truth is you appear to be doing just that. For the longest time multiclassing in DDO has been primarily seen as a sub optimal thing to do and has been relegated to "splashing" for the vast majority of the games life, only after ED's lowered the emphasis of Heroic levels a small amount* has the tide changed much. Outside of a few types of deeper multiclass builds that have always been semi-popular (6 ranger 12 other full BAB melee 2 evasion for example) most have been restricted to 18/2 splits that barely qualify as multiclassing at all.

18/2 in 3E is very close to what you saw in 2nd Edition as a 50/50 split. The 2nd Edition multiclass rules split all of your XP evenly, but because the rate of XP required per level was exponential, you consistently ended up just 1 level behind your party. By the time you hit 20, everyone else would be a level 20 Fighter or a level 20 Cleric, etc. while you were a level 19 Fighter/19 Wizard. But because you only took the best number from each side instead of adding them together, you were only slightly more powerful than a level 19 Fighter or a level 19 Wizard. Because levels in 3E add their features and bonuses and stats directly to each other and because most classes are strongly front loaded, the only significant difference between 18/2 3E and 19/19 in 2E is that spell progression.

Also, good multiclass builds were never seen as sub-optimal. The reason why "just go pure 20" is the default advice given to new players is that most of the possible multiclass builds are just terrible. Every level of Fighter has synergy with a Fighter. Have a level 15 Monk and you're trying to figure out what would be a good choice for level 16? Splashing a level of Monk on to your Monk character is guaranteed to be a good option. *GOOD* multiclass builds, on the other hand, provide the same kinds of synergy to the character and have been popular since day 1 and bad multiclassing remains unpopular even since the rollout of MotU.
04-09-2013, 11:15 AM
sephiroth1084

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

FOTM builds are a result of min/maxing by people who are bored of being the best at the predefined specialties that are almost always done best by a pure 20.

Wrong.

FotM builds arise due to someone noticing a synergy of abilities that they hadn't previously, or a set that addresses new demands of recent content better than other class mixes do, or have, or in a different way.

Quote:

For the longest time multiclassing in DDO has been primarily seen as a sub optimal thing to do and has been relegated to "splashing" for the vast majority of the games life, only after ED's lowered the emphasis of Heroic levels a small amount* has the tide changed much.

Wrong.

Multiclassing has been a fixture of DDO since its inception. Years ago we had the batman builds (fighter/paladin/rogue), and we've had the Tukaw builds, the Hurtlocker, Big Rock Candy, Blitz, and many, many others. The quality and type of multiclassing shifts as the DDO metagame shifts. EDs make multiclassing a little easier, as you note, but we've had deep multiclasses for basically the entirety of the game's life.

Quote:

Outside of a few types of deeper multiclass builds that have always been semi-popular (6 ranger 12 other full BAB melee 2 evasion for example) most have been restricted to 18/2 splits that barely qualify as multiclassing at all.

The addition of PrEs, and in particular tier III PrEs is a major factor in this style of multiclassing: losing that third tier is often worse than anything you'd be picking up, but not always. You must not read the class and build forums very often, because I see plenty with 12 monk, 13 rogue, 12 fighter, 12 barbarian, 12-16 bard, 11-12 ranger, that are very effective. You don't see many casters splashing other classes, let alone multiclassing deeply, because the 3.5 system strongly discourages such characters by tying caster advancement exclusively to your class, whereas martial characters are doing basically the same things regardless of their class, so you have greater flexibility in how you achieve your goals.

Quote:

I'm bored to hell of that, I'm tired of the bar always being raised to "you must have this many pure class levels to enter this ride" buffing pure class when they are already the absolute best at 90% of the tasks that are possible in the game, is a terrible idea.

There are some pure classes that definitely need a boost, particularly in the later levels (ranger and bard, I'm looking at you). Pure classes are not necessarily better than pure classes. A 12 monk/6 ranger/2 fighter or artificer is going to be much better than any other archer build, except maybe a Kensei III, and that's debatable. Multiclass builds are almost always bringing more DPS than their pure class counterparts, because they are trading out small gains at later levels for bigger gains through synergy. EDs make some of those trades no longer quite as valuable, such as taking several levels of rogue or fighter for Haste Boost, but there are plenty of other combos that still really pay off.

Quote:

* (and I do mean a small amount, the truth is this is mostly a perception by players who used to be dead set against multiclassing, and because this perception is beneficial to people who like to multiclass, no one tends to point out that multiclassing still has the same losses of DC's and Trapping ability, and Spell Pen, and Double Strike, and third tier PrE's and etc. that it always had, ED's have just made them a little less shiny and obvious)

Uh...no. The people who were dead set against multiclassing are probably still going pure, because that's what they like, and how they think. The folks who looked at multiclassing as a strong and interesting option before are the ones who would view the effect EDs have on heroic levels as you describe, because they do just that: increase flexibility and expand options. As for multiclassing hurting trapping and double-strike...you're, again, Wrong.

Trapping has zero reliance on rogue (or artificer) levels after the 1st, and it's entirely possible to build a better trapper on a non-rogue with a 1 or 2 level rogue dip than on a pure rogue. An 18 wizard/2 rogue or artificer is probably better at traps than a pure rogue. My 12 monk/6 ranger/2 artificer is almost as good at traps as my pure rogue is, and the only reason he isn't equal is because I chose to lose a little bit of that strength for some additional versatility. As for double-strike, you can get more double-strike from multiclassing than you can from staying pure. 14 paladin/6 monk is adding 10% from Zeal to Wind Stance II. Similarly you can combo paladin and ranger. You can go 10+ rogue/some amount of monk (and even add 6 ranger as well) to gain greater alacrity with Opportunist, Wind Stance (and Tempest). And spell penetration can actually be higher for some characters. How, you ask? Well, sorcerer, cleric, druid, and favored soul are all feat-starved classes, and it can be difficult to squeeze in all the feats you really want/need. Splash 1 level of wizard for one metamagic feat you would have taken anyway, and spend your new free feat slot on (Greater) Spell Penetration. You just gained a net of +1 SP. Obviously, though, multiclassing on primary casters is a poor idea, generally, as I mentioned above. That's a failing of the 3.x system.

Quote:

And Yes 10,000 Stars has no business effecting arrows... sorry it just doesn't. if you want 10.000 arrows (or better yet "rain of arrows") add that as a feat w/ archery feat prereqs and free to Rangers at 16th level

No.

A separate enhancement may be worthwhile, but not a feat--archers are already spending more feats on their discipline than any other character. Ten Thousand Stars works for arrows because the idea fits thematically, as they aren't all that different. It's an extension of Zen Archery, which is almost exclusively a monk feat. Splitting the arrow effect into a new enhancement, separate from the shuriken-focused one, will just change what most people spend their couple of AP on, while forcing the few people out there who use 10K Stars for both archery and shurikens to spend more AP to support their mediocre characters. That's a draw for most of the people that have 10K Stars now, and a major loss for the few who use it for all of its benefits.

The only problem I have with 10K Stars is that it so thoroughly overshadows all other archers, forcing that multiclassing. MY solution would be to do a better job of defining the class-based strengths fighters, rangers, and rogues bring to archery. The problem right now is that rate of fire trumps basically everything else, because there really isn't anything that offers a comparable benefit (Kensei III comes close).

Give fighters the ability to use tactical feats (Trip, Stunning Blow, Sunder) with ranged weapons, and they become a strong contender with higher damage per shot, Haste Boost, more feats and HP, and some martial battlefield control at range.

Give rangers some of their 3.5 spells that enhance archery, either for short bursts of high ranged alacrity, or AoE archery, some CC effects tied to archery (different from those the fighter gets), and a shorter cooldown on Manyshot (not much shorter) and they will have the most versatility in what they can do with a bow, all while being able to dump their Dex if they choose. Deepwood Sniper should also bring some special ranged abilities, such as an Assassinate-like shot, and the ability to loose arrows without breaking stealth.

Monks will have the highest RoF, and a lot of movement and defensive abilities. They also really need to be able to generate Ki with their ranged weapon (if concerned about the interaction between Ki generation and things like Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot, just set the parameters to only grant 1 Ki per shot fired that hits, rather than for each target hit, or something like that), and should be able to use any Ki Strike abilities that they would normally be able to use with a weapon, with a ranged weapon. Then they'd have a few other nifty abilities to add to their archery abilities. If you look at Pathfinder, they have a Zen Archer monk archetype that sets monks up to be archers with the highest rate of fire, among other things.

Rogues probably need to be able to pick up some special rogue feats that benefit archery, such as by granting high-prerequisite feats (like IPS), or expanding their Point Blank Range the way Deepwood Sniper does.
04-09-2013, 11:32 AM
Failedlegend

Quote:

Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

stuff - snipped due to length look up one post please

Yes allk that is true proving that multi-classes and single-classes are fairly well balbced right now with any class that have useful tier 3 PrEs...once all classes have tier 3 PrEs (enhancement system currently has 2 pres for each class at least) it will be almost perfect (it will NEVER be perfect) but that the 3 tree limit suddenly puts a huge damper on multi-classing making single-class builds the clear superior option and multi-classing gets regulated to "flavour" builds. Which if it weren't for the fact that my static group doesn't care (I could play a 7Sorc/7Wiz/7Cleric and they wouldn't care) I'd probably stop playing.

I play DDO because of 4 things it's DnD, Its multi-classing, its active combat system, it's flexible subscription system.

DnD - It's losing this feel slowly but surely...the lose of dice notation is a big hit...also not happy with it switching it focus to the generic...err sorry the FORGOTTEN Realms. (Not being in FR was one of the big pluses DDO had over Neverwinter Online)

Active Combat - This is getting more and more common specifically Wildstar is looking to be extremely awesome

A-La-Carte payment style aka Premium - This used to only be for bad games but the F2P/MTX market has boomed recently...some could say Turbine started it.

DnD I can get from Neverwinter if I really want...active combat + F2P/MTX style I can easily find BUT the only other MMO I've found with well done multi-classing with a community that supports it is FF11 and unfortunately it's P2P so since I refuse to support Square-Enix unless they get their act together I can't play it. So as long as that remains a dominant feature of DDO it's unlikely I'll go anywhere...if its crippled I'll likely leave simple as that.
04-09-2013, 02:08 PM
IronClan

Quote:

Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Wrong.

FotM builds arise due to someone noticing a synergy of abilities that they hadn't previously, or a set that addresses new demands of recent content better than other class mixes do, or have, or in a different way.

You just called me wrong and then went on to reword my stated reason for why FotM builds pop up. So it's a little hard to take your post seriously. Adding another reason why they pop up in addition to the one I stated and you repeated is not how contradiction works. And does not prove me wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

Wrong.

Multiclassing has been a fixture of DDO since its inception. Years ago we had the batman builds (fighter/paladin/rogue), and we've had the Tukaw builds, the Hurtlocker, Big Rock Candy, Blitz, and many, many others. The quality and type of multiclassing shifts as the DDO metagame shifts. EDs make multiclassing a little easier, as you note, but we've had deep multiclasses for basically the entirety of the game's life.

You do understand the saying "exceptions don't disprove rules"? In most cases the "deep multiclassing" (mostly deep splashes of Melee class combo's) you're talking about are FotM builds (that in some cases lasted a long time due to the derth of content in the past) and in some cases the direct results of flukish class splits due to the low cap, where going pure was never a real choice in the first place. Not getting ANY perks for the last few class levels and thus taking a few levels of something else is hardly a multiclassing choice, with an legit opportunity cost. It's a FotM build that lasts until they made those few levels better or raised the cap and made the new levels worth taking.

A lot of old builds (such as the Batman build) were a direct result of exploiting a poorly implemented (or not at all implemented) PnP rule allowing someone to have evasion in heavy armor for example. Not unlike the current "hey 10,000 Stars works with arrows" Monkchers, they should never have existed in the first place. If you can describe a class split as "it would be stupid not to do this if you want to be a good ____fill in the blank then it's not much of a choice.

Let's not pretend your brief list of exceptions is somehow proof of a thriving history of great multiclassing choices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

As for multiclassing hurting trapping and double-strike...you're, again, Wrong.

Trapping has zero reliance on rogue (or artificer) levels after the 1st, and it's entirely possible to build a better trapper on a non-rogue with a 1 or 2 level rogue dip than on a pure rogue. An 18 wizard/2 rogue or artificer is probably better at traps than a pure rogue.

Really how is an INT specced Mechanic lower in trap DC's to a Wiz that doesn't get Mechanic PrE (+4 DC's +4 trap saves) or Rogue capstone (+2 INT)? OR Wiz Captone (-2 INT) Also let me know how a 2 splash gets improved evasion?

What you said is wrong, as in ACTUALLY wrong, as in I have just objectively proven you to be wrong. Unless you can produce about 7 DC worth of trap skills that a 18/2 Wiz can get that no Rogue has access to (so far as I can see only difference is 3 INT from Wiz enhancements, or 1.5 DC's a Rogue can't get versus the 6 DC's a Splashed Wiz can't get), and an undocumented ED improved evasion ability that gives the weaker trap DC Wiz the same survivability (minus some hit points the Wiz is giving up and a couple points of reflex save because they both have Insightful Reflex feat, but one has capstone and the other does not) and thus "better at trapping".

If however you meant to say "can be a very good trapper" you know I've already said as much about multiclass versus pure. Pure is the specialist in most cases (exceptions exist). Of course there's very little content where a 18/2 Wiz with trap gear can't do traps, we both know that and naturally that's where your defense of your incorrect statement must go. However that's not the same as "wrong an 18/2 wiz is a better trapper".
04-09-2013, 06:32 PM
Artos_Fabril

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

Really how is an INT specced Mechanic lower in trap DC's to a Wiz that doesn't get Mechanic PrE (+4 DC's +4 trap saves) or Rogue capstone (+2 INT)? OR Wiz Captone (-2 INT) Also let me know how a 2 splash gets improved evasion?

What you said is wrong, as in ACTUALLY wrong, as in I have just objectively proven you to be wrong. Unless you can produce about 7 DC worth of trap skills that a 18/2 Wiz can get that no Rogue has access to (so far as I can see only difference is 3 INT from Wiz enhancements, or 1.5 DC's a Rogue can't get versus the 6 DC's a Splashed Wiz can't get), and an undocumented ED improved evasion ability that gives the weaker trap DC Wiz the same survivability (minus some hit points the Wiz is giving up and a couple points of reflex save because they both have Insightful Reflex feat, but one has capstone and the other does not) and thus "better at trapping".

If however you meant to say "can be a very good trapper" you know I've already said as much about multiclass versus pure. Pure is the specialist in most cases (exceptions exist). Of course there's very little content where a 18/2 Wiz with trap gear can't do traps, we both know that and naturally that's where your defense of your incorrect statement must go. However that's not the same as "wrong an 18/2 wiz is a better trapper".

Of course, he could have meant that an 18/2 wiz/rog is a better to have as the sole party member handling traps, being a sufficiently skilled trapper, and significantly more effective in all other aspects of completing a quest than a pure mechanic.

However, that speaks nothing to multi-class characters being overpowered. It is more accurately a reflection of the disparity between casters and melees, and between artificers and all other crossbow users, as well as the substantial discrepancy between a build with a choice of 2 tier 3 PrEs versus one than cannot attain one.

This does, however, provide a great example of a class and build that will benefit significantly from the proposed ability of pure-class characters to take multiple PrE lines. Specifically, as we have already stipulated that a character need not have absolutely maximal skills in order to successfully disarm all traps, we have a character who will, with the enhancement pass be able to take both tier 3 Mechanic (30 points) and Capstone Assassin (41 points), giving a maxed-int, repeater-weilding, vorpal-assassinating, pure rogue with 17d6+12 sneak attack damage on every bolt.
04-10-2013, 01:19 AM
sephiroth1084

Sometimes they are a result of tweaks to mobs (Insta kill saves in eGH for example, making Shiradi magic missile nuking even more attractive) that make the specialty less attractive temporarily. This comes and goes with new packs, and frankly should never be in the discussion. Not long ago Archmagi Evoker PrE was considered a gimpy choice. If your reason for buffing pure classes that are already CLEARLY superior at almost every specialty in the game, is that FotM builds pop up, then I think you're basing your opinion on a very short sighted view of the game.

The truth is you appear to be doing just that. For the longest time multiclassing in DDO has been primarily seen as a sub optimal thing to do and has been relegated to "splashing" for the vast majority of the games life, only after ED's lowered the emphasis of Heroic levels a small amount* has the tide changed much. Outside of a few types of deeper multiclass builds that have always been semi-popular (6 ranger 12 other full BAB melee 2 evasion for example) most have been restricted to 18/2 splits that barely qualify as multiclassing at all.

Now a few scant months later post ED's and the curious admixture of slightly reduced emphasis and substantially changed perception it's time to return to the lame splash only pure class dominated days that have been the norm for most of the game? I couldn't disagree more.

I'm bored to hell of that, I'm tired of the bar always being raised to "you must have this many pure class levels to enter this ride" buffing pure class when they are already the absolute best at 90% of the tasks that are possible in the game, is a terrible idea.

* (and I do mean a small amount, the truth is this is mostly a perception by players who used to be dead set against multiclassing, and because this perception is beneficial to people who like to multiclass, no one tends to point out that multiclassing still has the same losses of DC's and Trapping ability, and Spell Pen, and Double Strike, and third tier PrE's and etc. that it always had, ED's have just made them a little less shiny and obvious)

I agree some Classes need buffs to return to relevance... and this enhancement pass is an opportunity to help make that happen. But that's not really a Multiclass versus pure thing. And really it needs to not be strictly an enhancement thing. Bard's needed a severe boost in Spells during that spell pass that didn't happen. Ranger's feat abilities have always been too front loaded, and their later perks too irrelevant or not working (Ranged alacrity being pretty nearly half).

And Yes 10,000 Stars has no business effecting arrows... sorry it just doesn't. if you want 10.000 arrows (or better yet "rain of arrows") add that as a feat w/ archery feat prereqs and free to Rangers at 16th level[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=IronClan;4976800]You just called me wrong and then went on to reword my stated reason for why FotM builds pop up. So it's a little hard to take your post seriously. Adding another reason why they pop up in addition to the one I stated and you repeated is not how contradiction works. And does not prove me wrong.
What you said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

FOTM builds are a result of min/maxing by people who are bored of being the best at the predefined specialties that are almost always done best by a pure 20.

And I essentially said, "No, people do not build FoTM because they are bored of being the best at something, and that, no, a pure 20 is not the best at almost everything." Funny, doesn't look like I'm repeating what you said...

Quote:

You do understand the saying "exceptions don't disprove rules"? In most cases the "deep multiclassing" (mostly deep splashes of Melee class combo's) you're talking about are FotM builds (that in some cases lasted a long time due to the derth of content in the past) and in some cases the direct results of flukish class splits due to the low cap, where going pure was never a real choice in the first place. Not getting ANY perks for the last few class levels and thus taking a few levels of something else is hardly a multiclassing choice, with an legit opportunity cost. It's a FotM build that lasts until they made those few levels better or raised the cap and made the new levels worth taking.

A lot of old builds (such as the Batman build) were a direct result of exploiting a poorly implemented (or not at all implemented) PnP rule allowing someone to have evasion in heavy armor for example. Not unlike the current "hey 10,000 Stars works with arrows" Monkchers, they should never have existed in the first place. If you can describe a class split as "it would be stupid not to do this if you want to be a good ____fill in the blank then it's not much of a choice.

Let's not pretend your brief list of exceptions is somehow proof of a thriving history of great multiclassing choices.

You made the erroneous claim that DDO has not had multiclassing, that multiclassing has been poor, and that multiclassing has only been worthwhile, really, since we received epic destinies. I demonstrated that you're wrong. The character builds I named weren't exceptions; they were the few I could recall off the top of my head with a moment's thought. There has been multiclassing in DDO since basically day 1, and there has been consistent multiclassing since then. You can make whatever claims you like about why people multiclass, but that has nothing to do with the point you tried to make, and that I refuted.

As for some of your reasoning here, claiming that many pure classes simply don't offer any incentive to take them all the way to 20 as a cause of multiclassing indicates that some classes do need to be buffed, which counters your main point in the post that I quoted. You're arguing with yourself now.

Quote:

Really how is an INT specced Mechanic lower in trap DC's to a Wiz that doesn't get Mechanic PrE (+4 DC's +4 trap saves) or Rogue capstone (+2 INT)? OR Wiz Captone (-2 INT) Also let me know how a 2 splash gets improved evasion?

Uh...because you're talking about the rare Int-focused Mechanic, while I'm talking about Rogues and Wizards. Obviously, an Int specced Mechanic will be better at dealing with traps than anyone else in the game, but they're also fairly poor at doing absolutely anything else! The Wizard may very likely be a Pale Master, which grants +2 Int with Lich form, so that's a wash, and they are quite likely to have almost as high a Reflex save as a rogue Str-based rogue if they pick up Insightful Reflexes, which is an excellent feat for a wizard without Evasion, let alone with.
Dex 15 (assuming +2 tome to hit 17 for GTWF, but could be a 13 with a +4) = +2
Refl at 20: +12 base +6 trap sense
Total: +20

Wizard 18/Rogue 2.
Int 18 +5 levels +2 lich +3 enhancements = 28, or +9
Refl at 20: 3 from rogue, 5 from wizard = +8
Total: +17

The wizard is likely to have more HP (they lose some HP from the smaller HD, but gain it back and then some from Con being their secondary stat and not really needing to invest anywhere else, along with the +4 from Lich and +20 from PM).

Now, yeah, you could compare with a Dex-based rogue, who would win there, albeit by a small margin since they are less likely to begin with an 18, are much less likely to spend 3 enhancements on Dex, and aren't getting that extra +2 from a capstone or anything.

Quote:

If however you meant to say "can be a very good trapper" you know I've already said as much about multiclass versus pure. Pure is the specialist in most cases (exceptions exist). Of course there's very little content where a 18/2 Wiz with trap gear can't do traps, we both know that and naturally that's where your defense of your incorrect statement must go. However that's not the same as "wrong an 18/2 wiz is a better trapper".

Well, the wizard will have more HP, and will be able to heal in the middle of a complex trap more easily than the rogue will. They'll probably have higher trap skills than a non-Mechanic, and about even with a non-Int-focused Mechanic, while being much better at everything else in the game.

You aren't comparing pure vs. multiclass here, however, you're comparing a PrE designed to accomplish ONE task to multiclassing. And, as you say, the little bit of advantage a rogue has is going to often be irrelevant, since you can get by in the game with the tools the 18/2 wizard will have--you don't need the hyper-specialization that the Mechanic offers. The wizard can do any trap in the game, and nearly every trap in the game can be avoided through skillful play. Thus, you essentially have two characters with equal ability (it doesn't matter if one can get higher numbers if they can both beat all of the same challenges) in one area, while one character also has all the abilities of a pure wizard (-1 to their DCs and a couple of spell slots). That looks like multiclassing is highly effective to me.
04-10-2013, 01:27 AM
sephiroth1084

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artos_Fabril

Of course, he could have meant that an 18/2 wiz/rog is a better to have as the sole party member handling traps, being a sufficiently skilled trapper, and significantly more effective in all other aspects of completing a quest than a pure mechanic.

Yup.

Quote:

However, that speaks nothing to multi-class characters being overpowered. It is more accurately a reflection of the disparity between casters and melees, and between artificers and all other crossbow users, as well as the substantial discrepancy between a build with a choice of 2 tier 3 PrEs versus one than cannot attain one.

Of course it speaks to multiclassing. You could look at the Rogue 18/Fighter 2, who gains 2 feats, +1 Str, and has basically the same trapping ability, trading 5d6 SA for two feats for added versatility or punch vs. SA-immune enemies. Not a great trade, but certainly doable, and potentially fairly strong.

We've got dozens of 13 rogue/ builds on the forums. The wiz/rog split just emphasizes the point; it isn't necessary to make it.

Quote:

This does, however, provide a great example of a class and build that will benefit significantly from the proposed ability of pure-class characters to take multiple PrE lines. Specifically, as we have already stipulated that a character need not have absolutely maximal skills in order to successfully disarm all traps, we have a character who will, with the enhancement pass be able to take both tier 3 Mechanic (30 points) and Capstone Assassin (41 points), giving a maxed-int, repeater-weilding, vorpal-assassinating, pure rogue with 17d6+12 sneak attack damage on every bolt.

And that's an issue. Multiclassing will definitely need some bolstering to compete with the additional single-class power coming down the pipe. That doesn't mean that some classes don't need to be boosted themselves.

If you can get deep enough into your off-class(es)' enhancements, multiclassing may still be a strong option given some planning and forethought.
04-10-2013, 01:48 AM
emptysands

Quote:

Originally Posted by sephiroth1084

* (and I do mean a small amount, the truth is this is mostly a perception by players who used to be dead set against multiclassing, and because this perception is beneficial to people who like to multiclass, no one tends to point out that multiclassing still has the same losses of DC's and Trapping ability, and Spell Pen, and Double Strike, and third tier PrE's and etc. that it always had, ED's have just made them a little less shiny and obvious)

The effect is not just from EDs. Gear plays a factor as well. An extra +2 from a +8+3+1 over +6+2+1 item, extra fort penetration.

Adds up.
04-10-2013, 04:50 PM
whereispowderedsilve

Early Enhancement preview!!

Early Enhancement preview!!

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=414564 <======= Go there now!!! :O
04-10-2013, 05:26 PM
emptysands

New forum as well: http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=264
04-11-2013, 07:06 AM
Blayster

Quote:

Originally Posted by whereispowderedsilve

Early Enhancement preview!!

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=414564 <======= Go there now!!! :O

Thank you for letting us know. Great that there is another thread, as this one here seems to have digressed into multiclassing discussion, and I'm already tired of people giving me negative reputation for openly discussing my opinion.
04-11-2013, 11:03 AM
HungarianRhapsody

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronClan

There wasn't a single insult in my post, unless we're not allowed to tell someone when they are objectively wrong about something they are claiming. I was wondering what happened to that post, I thought maybe I forgot to click send or something. The closest thing to an insult here is you passive aggressively implying there's something wrong with my view of multiclassing, as in the "whats that supposed to mean?" comment. Anyway if you're going to report a post that doesn't even contain so much as a single IMPLICATION or personally directed comment, then your post is also worthy of reporting.

I followed your link, I don't agree with your opinion in it, but didn't feel strongly enough at the time I first read it to debate it. Nothing in it actually points out why my "premise for the purpose and use of multiclassing is way off base".
Again that comment, absent any examples or reasons, simply appears to have been a passive aggressive attempt to bait me, by implying that I'm not knowledgeable enough to share my opinion on multiclassing. This appearance is bolstered by the fact that you are not offering any reasoning for why my premise is "way off base". If you're going to report me while you post personally directed slights like that I'm going to have to return the favor, even though that's just going to result in deleted conversations.

You insulted me (repeatedly) in a post that doesn't show up on the forums anymore and now you're saying that I'm trolling you by saying that you insulted me. Amazing.

It seems to me that you are not interested in having a productive conversation on this issue, so I'll just leave you in peace at this point. If you want to believe that multiclassing was rare and sub-optimal before MotU, then you're welcome to do so. Most of us can recognize that multiclassing was viable and powerful and versatile for the entire history of DDO.
04-11-2013, 12:57 PM
Tolero

The time has come my little friends to talk of many things!
Of points, and buffs, and action boosts
Of spells, and songs to sing
And why the build is good or not
And enhancement related things....

Enhancements revamp alpha is now happening on Lamannia.

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page