Update on New Divine Epic Destiny

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Originally Posted by redspecter23

I have to ask. Is invulnerability for 20 seconds considered comparable to Master's Blitz for an entire quest (unless you go through a door)? The world wants to know if Master's Blitz is the yardstick we should be measuring epic moments by... or is it above the curve for what an epic moment should be.

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All epic moments should be as powerful in their ways as Blitz is for meleeing.

All 2nd lvl spells should be as powerful in their ways as Scorching Ray is.. the only one that comes close is web.

I could go on but there are just so many things that need rebalanced... and by that I mean weaker stuff buffed, not strong stuff nerfed.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work.

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I'll just throw a piece of info here...

Only time i actually used it on my tank which was like a year+ ago...was during an EH LoB run where i was the main tank and i activated the "Epic Moment" exactly when he started his whirlwind JUST SO i could see his damage output.

Level of Usefulness: Boredom

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Originally Posted by redspecter23

Also, Vargouille if you're reading this far, see what you can do about throwing some knockback immunity to tanks, possibly in the US tree. Moving 2 feet every 2 seconds to re-engage with nearly every giant and dragon along with other types of mobs is killer on your dps when you only get glancing blows while standing still. Bare minimum, can you have it not knock you back on a miss?

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Or how about that fix that was supposed to be in the eGH release, that said that yellow named giants no longer knocked you back? That never made it in...

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Originally Posted by Ovrad

Or how about that fix that was supposed to be in the eGH release, that said that yellow named giants no longer knocked you back? That never made it in...

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I'm not sure what it is about that knockback. The way it jerks the screen or just having to keep moving just a little bit after every swing but it annoys the crud out of me to the point where I just want to close my eyes and not have to deal with it until the fight is over. If I can keep a boss in deception lockdown for more than 5 seconds it just makes me so happy because I don't need to twitch back into position again. In case you didn't realize, I really hate no save knockback that happens regardless of your defenses. This annoys me only slightly less than invulnerable Djinns that toss you around for 20 seconds until they decide to come back and let you kill them again. Only sometimes, they aren't quite back even though graphically they appear to be, then they toss you around for a few seconds more.

But yes, I'd like to see non named giants just plain not do it. It would be a good start.

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

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Originally Posted by spectroum

I'll just throw a piece of info here...

Only time i actually used it on my tank which was like a year+ ago...was during an EH LoB run where i was the main tank and i activated the "Epic Moment" exactly when he started his whirlwind JUST SO i could see his damage output.

Level of Usefulness: Boredom

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I did it with Meld Into Darkness. It is so awesome to see all the "dodge" messages in a heavy plated dwarf.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

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Fair enough. I guess I'm just not a fan of the blocking system here. I get where you're trying to go with it, but I don't think the game is responsive enough to get active shield blocking syncing up fast enough to not be frustrating. As effective as shield blocking a knockback is in theory, it's still faster to just take the knockback and run up, swinging the whole time.

Also, unless I'm doing something wrong, I wasn't able to shield block through a djinn immuno-frenzy without knockbacks and knockdowns.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

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Together with our DPS and means to keep aggro.

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Exalted.png

Lots of empty space here.
Fill up the new ED and you could have enough stuff for both a melee and a caster.

Doing some math, we have 24 points to spend atm.
With the increase of ED to level 10, we should have 16 more for a total of 40.
If the left side of the new divine ed is str/wis, then players could spend 2x6=12 points there.

If I was a dev, I could pack up 28 points to spend on melee and 28 points to spend on casters
all in one ED. I could do it, can you?

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Originally Posted by Silverleafeon

http://ddowiki.com/images/EDTree_Exalted.png

Lots of empty space here.
Fill up the new ED and you could have enough stuff for both a melee and a caster.

Doing some math, we have 24 points to spend atm.
With the increase of ED to level 10, we should have 16 more for a total of 40.
If the left side of the new divine ed is str/wis, then players could spend 2x6=12 points there.

If I was a dev, I could pack up 28 points to spend on melee and 28 points to spend on casters
all in one ED. I could do it, can you?

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So far, you're the only person talking about increasing EDs to lvl10 like its a fact, not something that is never gonna happen.

You see any dev promise, is that just your wish?

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

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All knockbacks or just the ones associated with giants? Because I know this isn't the case with air elementals or djinns.

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Originally Posted by redspecter23

Fair enough. I guess I'm just not a fan of the blocking system here. I get where you're trying to go with it, but I don't think the game is responsive enough to get active shield blocking syncing up fast enough to not be frustrating. As effective as shield blocking a knockback is in theory, it's still faster to just take the knockback and run up, swinging the whole time.

Also, unless I'm doing something wrong, I wasn't able to shield block through a djinn immuno-frenzy without knockbacks and knockdowns.

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I'm not sure if it's entirely a syncing issue as to an implementation issue, you do need to block before the would be blockable attacks start, and if you drop the block .25 sec before the attack lands the server knows you aren't blocking (it was something like 2 seconds to start blocking and instant stop blocking).

Aside from this:

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Originally Posted by ProducerRowan

...Our final update of 2014 will extend the level cap to 30, which is intended to be DDO’s “permanent” level cap and complete the Epic levels. With this update we’ll be looking at ways to complete and improve existing systems like Epic Destinies....The team is also considering (but not promising) a range of additions, including scaling more content to Epic levels, adding new Classes or Iconics, adding new Enhancement paths or Epic Destinies, and possibly introducing player housing in Eberron...

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and nebulous comments made in a you tube video.

I have absolutely zero proof of any kind that the epic destinies will be increased to level 10.

The same could be said of my predictions that epic levels were coming and that the new divine epic destiny would be worked on soon.

I have been wrong predicting TCG futures in the past, and I could be very wrong again.

Do notice that ED xp stops one point short of level 6, instead of stopping at the normal beginning of level 5.
Also note that a Dev posted in favor (no link too far back) of granting the fate points that would be acquired from the ED having level six.
I think I posted more theory elsewhere, but i'll not bore you.


Luxury entertainment is based upon economy, so its wise for Devs to not talk about things that are not in production.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done.

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I've been playing S&B paladins since starting DDO in '06, and I think I'm the only one on the forums to use and advocate Glorious Stand, which the US is supposedly a better version of. I can tell you that the US epic moment is not useful in it's implentation. The issue is that you never know when you are going to get in over your head and need a quick reprieve like either of these do. Glorious Stand has the advantage of being able to be used at any time. I might only need to use it once in a while but it's a handy backup. The problem with the US epic moment is that you have to charge it / and the charge resets upon resting. I tried using it but invariably it wouldn't be charged when I actually needed it, making it useless. If you insist on having to charge it, then have it remain available until it's used. Even then, it should do something more than it does such as adds healing amp like Glorious Stand does. Also, 20 seconds is way too short for an epic moment. I would expect this to last for a minute, but at a minimum extend it to 30 seconds.

what about a light adrenaline style of effect granted on your next attack after you successfully block an attack? say maybe like the base 300% and increase crit range by 1 or 2.

that encourages the kind of block a hit then swing then block another hit that's trying to be encouraged, I say you DEFINANTLY need to block a hit so that you don't just spam block attack over and over like a weird kind of twitch fighting.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Lay on Hands doesn't regenerate at all without Endless Lay on Hands. The 10% reduction after that does stack in the same as that +1 Lay on Hands stacks, so rank 3 is 20% faster than rank 1 in addition to providing +2 Lay on Hands uses. We can try to clarify that text further to make that clear and more consistent with how we usually present that information.

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Well, Endless Lay On Hands should be given to Pure Paladins upon reaching level 20. It's something I've been asking for for years. Besides shouldn't a pure Paladin a minor benefit like this without being forced into a specific ED or twist. If a paladin wants rechargeable Lay On Hands or faster Smites, they are stuck in a specific ED or forced to give up twist slots. It'd be nice to see these as perks for being a pure paladin.

And I've suggested more Lay On Hands in the past and I was told that it would make Paladins too overpowered (yes, really), then found that additional Lay On Hands were added to an ED a year later.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done better.

There are of course other possible changes which we are happy for players to suggest as part of our re-examination of divine Epic Destinties, but the intent was never to actually grant 10,000 temporary hitpoints for full use (any more than Unyielding Sovereignty is expected to actually heal 10,000 hit points). Again, sorry for the confusion.

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The problems I have with this moment are first that it's not really an apotheosis. The thing about not dying is that it takes a long time. There is no momentary immortality. So giving a brief invulnerability to a class built on long term survivability is kind of awkward. It works really well on a high damage class that is constantly worried about death. I love meld into darkness for that reason.

Secondly, it is random and rare to get the ability charged up. It is also rare that things go badly enough that the usual means of survival are inadequate (comments from the peanut gallery notwithstanding). The confluence of these events meant that I never really had the opportunity to use it.

And finally when it does come up, the great event is that - nothing happens - it's a little pragmatic to love even if it were really potent, which it isn't really. It basically substitutes for a couple heals. I'm of the belief that the moments should have a little razzamataz. The beauty of the epic moment design is that countdown, it really builds the anticipation, and it's nice to have fireworks. Removing the time limit would address my first problem, but it would still be an awfully workmanlike ability for a moment.

It would be a cool epic moment if it had something like: "All nearby enemies take damage equal to the amount of temporary hp missing from the 10,000 every few seconds" added on to the end as that would give tanks a reason to exist beyond 1 single lonely raid.

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Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde

I hope the new destiny has a different "theme" from the existing ones. I'd just like to see something a bit darker, give some breadth to the Divine tree.

It's also good that you guys are giving some consideration to US and EA. Here's a few concrete suggestions:

Unyielding SentinelChange the stances so that you get all of the benefits in all of the stances, just somewhat reduced when you're not in the "main" stance that primarily grants that benefit. For instance, make Steadfast make you immune to knockdown but if you're in Stand Against The Tide you're also immune to KNOCKBACK. There are plenty of classes that get immunity to knockdown somewhere, that'd be a unique ability for this tree and this destiny truly VALUABLE for tanking some of the bosses in the game.

None of the tier abilities should be completely stance-dependent. You can make them somewhat better in a stance (holy burst instead of holy when you're in Stand Against the Tide, for instance), but if you spend points on it, it should be active. One of the worst things about this tree is that there is literally NOTHING worth twisting in because it all depends on the innate abilities. Heck, Anoint Weapon is a friggin' tier 5, so you can't twist it regardless. Sense Weakness is hella more powerful than Purify Weapon and you can freely twist it in on any build. The alignment-based abilities should grant DIFFERENT things for DIFFERENT alignments, not ONLY grant something IF you have X alignment. If you're chaotic, your weapons should get Chaotic from Fanaticism. Maybe if you're Neutral Fanaticism, Purify, and Anoint do electrical damage or similar.

Make levels in the destiny count as Paladin levels for the purpose of improving your LoH and Smite Evil.

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Agree with all of the above.

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Healing Hands should grant healing amp not positive spellpower. You folks might want to consider this an opportunity to fix the stacking rules and amounts on healing amp.

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I'm ok with this granting positive spellpower, as that buffs your self-cast CSW or whatever, and buffs Light the Dark, plus, if you are desperate for healing amp, you can twist out of EA. If anything, add a little Hamp to this in addition to the spellpower.

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Intolerant Blows should be more like +[2]W or +[3]W

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This is a really poor ability. The original concept for the ability was poor, and I resent that the dev team changed it rather than take the time to make it work as it was originally intended--that is, like a high-threat AoE attack, or an Intimidate that works on everything. I say, change it to the following:

Expend Smite Evil: Attack with +3[W], normal Smite Damage, and +500% threat. On-hit: activate Intimidate (using 5x your Intim score), with the restrictions normally attached to Intimidate (cannot affect mindless creatures like most constructs and vermin, some undead, oozes, etc...).

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Ward Against Evil should always proc, not just be a measly 20% chance. Maybe give it a 3/6/9% chance to proc some kind of medium-big boom. Also, rename it, retribution isn't a "ward", it's not protecting you, it's hitting them BACK.

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This is just horrendously bad. Ditch it, or change it to maybe...

On-being-attacked (hit or missed): Gain stack of Ward Against Evil (insert standard stack language--see Vulnerability/Inferno). For each stack, you heal 10 HP (affected by either positive healing amp, or repair amp, whichever is higher) every time you are attacked, and gain +5 PRR, +5 AC, and +1 to saves vs. Evil. This can stack up to 10 times. Thus, on a 10-stack, you would gain 100 HP (before amp) every time you're attacked (maybe limit to triggering once per 2 seconds), +50 PRR, +50, and +10 to your saves vs. Evil. THAT'S a ward.

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Here's the big one: UNDYING VANGUARD SUCKS. IT SUCKS HARD. This is supposed to be an epic moment? It's nearly impossible to build up 200 stacks in any quest with any kind of a door or area transition in it, and what the heck is the point of having 10,000 temp hp if they GO AWAY in 20 seconds? Reduce the stacks DRAMATICALLY and make the temp HP last until they get chomped away by damage. THAT would actually be good. If you want to reduce it to 5000 temp hp, FINE, (although, boo), but don't taunt us with HP we don't actually get to USE.

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Going to say it again: short-duration, long cooldown defensive abilities are TERRIBLE! Offensive abilities work well like this, because you can judge when you wish to use them, and it's hardly a waste even if you use it at an inopportune moment. The benefits of the US epic moment should last for at least 2 minutes (assuming a 5 minute cooldown), and should be significant. Maybe grant an automatic, upgraded version of Rejuvenation Cocoon--every 2 seconds, you are healed for X damage, and gain Y temporary HP (maybe X = 200, and Y = 400). That's nigh-unkillable, but also isn't necessarily going to mean invulnerability.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

The protection is intended to be time based, not hit point based. We realize that this was poorly received since we poorly set up the expectation. A possible translation here would be to simply make you invulnerable for 20 seconds, which was the intended goal. It happened to be simpler to grant an intentionally excessive amount of temporary hitpoints than to make you fully invulnerable, so that short cut was taken in order to spend more time on other Epic Destiny work. But this is a good example of how presentation matters, and we could have done better.

There are of course other possible changes which we are happy for players to suggest as part of our re-examination of divine Epic Destinties, but the intent was never to actually grant 10,000 temporary hitpoints for full use (any more than Unyielding Sovereignty is expected to actually heal 10,000 hit points). Again, sorry for the confusion.

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How about this?

• 1 or 2 minute duration (20 seconds is just not long enough, especially given both the charge-up time, and cooldown).
• Gain DR 400/-- (that's physical invulnerability vs. almost everything in the game)
• Gain Resist Fire, Cold, Electric, Sonic, Acid, Light 1,000 (that's not elemental invulnerability vs. everything, but it's close)
• Gain immunity to Force and Negative Energy damage (since we don't have a resistance mechanic for these)

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Originally Posted by Snapdragoon

what about a light adrenaline style of effect granted on your next attack after you successfully block an attack? say maybe like the base 300% and increase crit range by 1 or 2.

that encourages the kind of block a hit then swing then block another hit that's trying to be encouraged, I say you DEFINANTLY need to block a hit so that you don't just spam block attack over and over like a weird kind of twitch fighting.

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Originally Posted by Havok.cry

It would be a cool epic moment if it had something like: "All nearby enemies take damage equal to the amount of temporary hp missing from the 10,000 every few seconds" added on to the end as that would give tanks a reason to exist beyond 1 single lonely raid.

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http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/th...2Wobbuffet.png

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

For what it's worth, blocking stops knockbacks (and some other negative effects).

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Try shield blocking while cycling thru cleave, great cleave, etc...