Thoughts on Armor Class

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Originally Posted by Nitesco

Noone said it's impossible to tank EE mobs on a character completely built for it. It's still just a slow, inefficent and impractical form of CC to use in a group. This type of CC doesn't even come close to caster CC, sure it's POSSIBLE to muddle through a quest on a melee using aggro management and physical defenses to mitigate damage, but it's really not all that fun, judging by the comment about how long it took. Noone would choose the melee over the caster, if they had the caster option, especially if it's going to take a considerably longer time to complete. Screenshots like these don't prove anything about AC, if someone wants to make a point about AC being useful, then make a video of your melee tanking EE mobs with your character sheet out. Then we can start drawing some conclusions about what REALLY matters.

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Well in my experience there are very few casters who do really well in EEs. I would take my paladin over most casters any day. The reason I even found out I can handle EE mobs on my own is because everyone was dying left and right despite usually having a caster when I was farming my 375 favor and I had to pull through time and time again.

Yes, having the mobs held, webbed or danced is better than having them tanked, and it's even better to just have them wailed. You are not going to have them CCed reliably though unless you are one of those people who are scared to run with people they don't know. I run with the first 5 who hit the LFM (as long as one is a healer) so I can't control what other people bring to the group, but I can control what I bring to the group, and what I bring is what usually gets the quest completed even if other people don't do their job properly. This is why I build my paladin the way I did, or why my wizard is necro-specced instead of enchantment.

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Originally Posted by svinja

Well in my experience there are very few casters who do really well in EEs. I would take my paladin over most casters any day. The reason I even found out I can handle EE mobs on my own is because everyone was dying left and right despite usually having a caster when I was farming my 375 favor and I had to pull through time and time again.

Yes, having the mobs held, webbed or danced is better than having them tanked, and it's even better to just have them wailed. You are not going to have them CCed reliably though unless you are one of those people who are scared to run with people they don't know. I run with the first 5 who hit the LFM (as long as one is a healer) so I can't control what other people bring to the group, but I can control what I bring to the group, and what I bring is what usually gets the quest completed even if other people don't do their job properly. This is why I build my paladin the way I did, or why my wizard is necro-specced instead of enchantment.

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Yes, but most people would probably avoid an EE run with a Paladin as CC, who seems to be taking the first 5 to hit the LFM, as a likely trainwreck.

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Originally Posted by Nitesco

Yes, but most people would probably avoid an EE run with a Paladin as CC, who seems to be taking the first 5 to hit the LFM, as a likely trainwreck.

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Yes, but the groups those "most people" will run with are dreadfully boring, never seen a boring train wreak.

the real issue here is that there where those saying you can't cc with a tank and that ac is not important or worth it.

It is viable, it is not preferred method but when stuff happens it works great.

Also it helps the overall dps in the quest. The tank if gets all the mobs is a focal point for heals and with his cleave and great cleave can be doing good damage with thf line using bastard swords or dwarven axes. So his dps is similar if not more then many melee. Then all the other melee get sneak attack damage so they produce more dps.

So as the main point was about ac and its importance and i would say having one tank in a group is definetly worth it.

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Originally Posted by hockeyrama

the real issue here is that there where those saying you can't cc with a tank and that ac is not important or worth it.

It is viable, it is not preferred method but when stuff happens it works great.

Also it helps the overall dps in the quest. The tank if gets all the mobs is a focal point for heals and with his cleave and great cleave can be doing good damage with thf line using bastard swords or dwarven axes. So his dps is similar if not more then many melee. Then all the other melee get sneak attack damage so they produce more dps.

So as the main point was about ac and its importance and i would say having one tank in a group is definetly worth it.

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No the real issue here is:

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Originally Posted by Nitesco

So the moral of the story is don't build for AC, but having even a little will glean you a tiny defensive chance, if you can work it in alongside your dodge items, Blur/Ghostly items and whatever PRR you can cobble together?

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Which is what people originally started to take issue with.

My first comment in this thread, after having looked at the table in the OP, is more or less true. That is, for all non-DoS/SD characters who are thinking of working AC into their builds. The real issue here is diehard AC fans trying to make AC seem more relevant now, in light of the information provided in this thread. So in the end, because it is 'possible' (although completely and utterly unfeasible), to get through an average EE with an AC 'tank' doing the CC via aggro mechanics, the AC fans think they have found some kind of moral high ground to fly their flag on.

However they are wrong, it's simply too easy to get overwhelmed without proper CC and chances of recovering from a mistake without mass CC are much lower. I can't really say anymore, as I don't know these people personally and haven't played with them. But when I'm in-game on my server, I see certain people joining groups, talk about their builds and see them in action. Often I am very unimpressed and realize my own defintion of efficiency and viability differs quite widely from theirs. Then it dawns on me that there are probably the people I end up arguing with on the forums.

No, your comment is wrong and the table is the exact reason why. The higher the mob to-hit the more valuable AC becomes. At 160 enemy to-hit 100 AC provides ~15% avoidance and 170 provides ~50% avoidance, that is a huge difference. It means a tank can reach over 90% total mitigation against EE trash with displacement, and ~85% with blur.

This means your 20% PRR, 15% dodge, blur and ghostly tank is taking ~3x more damage with the combined lower AC and PRR.

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Originally Posted by Nitesco

However they are wrong, it's simply too easy to get overwhelmed without proper CC and chances of recovering from a mistake without mass CC are much lower. I can't really say anymore, as I don't know these people personally and haven't played with them. But when I'm in-game on my server, I see certain people joining groups, talk about their builds and see them in action. Often I am very unimpressed and realize my own defintion of efficiency and viability differs quite widely from theirs. Then it dawns on me that there are probably the people I end up arguing with on the forums.

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They are only wrong according to your definition. As likely many are not building to impress you, they can very well be right by their own definitions of efficiency, if they even bother defining it, and viability.

This would seem to indicate that the reason you end up arguing with them is because they just don't play the same way or for the same reasons you do. Their taste in entertainment could simply be different than yours.

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Originally Posted by Nitesco

Often I am very unimpressed and realize my own defintion of efficiency and viability differs quite widely from theirs. Then it dawns on me that there are probably the people I end up arguing with on the forums.

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you should make that your sig... put it in your bio "We've argued in the forums, haven't we?"

First off ... Props to the OP +rep. Very usefull info so thanks.

I too have a SD .. 170 (can hit 180+ when I'm finished my destinies with buffs) AC, 144PRR(49.97%) 6% dodge 20% incorp, 101 intim (soon to be 108 once I'm finished). DR 14 with shield.... also 55 reflex and fort saves ... I think will is 48, need to check.

Most end bosses (if not all, so I'm told) now have true seeing so forget your ghostly/blur/displace for calculations if your looking at boss fights.

Elite Todd ... main tank ... I could auto attack for the whole end fight and go make a coffee.

Epic Normal LOB ... he can't hit me ... zero debuffs ... none of his stuns land (I didn't block on purpose) ... 1 FVS healed me with capstones only. Will report back on EE LOB one day when we get all our guildies together to run it. Your calcs are really usefull to get an idea of how much damage I may take and what will be required for the healers etc.

AC does work and is not hard to achieve with this build. I like the new system, it has made Tanks viable again and stopped the stupid caster/fvs tank builds that the previous system catered for.

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Originally Posted by xxScoobyDooxx

Most end bosses (if not all, so I'm told) now have true seeing so forget your ghostly/blur/displace for calculations if your looking at boss fights.

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Very, very few rednames have true seeing - and if they do, they are likely using spells much more often than physical attacks (and spells don't care about AC either). Purple raid style bosses? Sure, you can tank them with AC - or simply avoid them through maneuvers.

I'll repeat what I said a long time ago in this thread. The changes to defensive mechanics are good because they made it so that standard DPS melee can achieve a higher relative level of defense than the previous system allowed (casters were far harder to damage, even at close range).

The average person reading this thread should not be shooting for 170 AC and 50+ saves (I assume paladin splash?). That would be extremely debilitating for any sort of standard group play of which I am aware.

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Originally Posted by Raithe

The average person reading this thread should not be shooting for 170 AC and 50+ saves (I assume paladin splash?). That would be extremely debilitating for any sort of standard group play of which I am aware.

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If high AC is "extremely debilitating" for some quest instead of "extremely useful" then you don't do that quest in tank mode.

Obviously you're not going to beat on Lolth with 170 AC. I beat on Lolth with 72 AC and 54 PRR, while by changing gear, epic destiny, twists and stance (all of which can be switched for free without limit) I can get 167 AC and 194 PRR.

I do lack Overwhelming critical which you could call "debilitating" I guess but that is more because I have Quicken, Maximize, and haven't taken the clearly superior 2 fighter splash (vs my pure pally, I am probably going to take the splash eventually), it has little to do with AC.

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Originally Posted by svinja

I do lack Overwhelming critical which you could call "debilitating"

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Exactly what DPS capacity does your build have? Anyone can stack on the AC bonuses and have no-fail intimidate, if that's all they are building for. What can a build like that contribute when not 'tanking'?

My Stalwart III has Improved Trip and Stunning Blow with DC's in the low-mid 50's, Power Attack, Greater Two-Handed Fighting, Improved Critical: Slashing, Overwhelming Critical, most of the Legendary Dreadnaught Epic Destiny, 1000+ HP, 60+ Intimidate, Improved Sunder, an Epic Antique Greataxe etc.

I'm almost never 'tanking' and almost always take an active role in CC. With the extra dice/range/multipliers, I'm also putting out significant DPS.

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Originally Posted by Raithe

Very, very few rednames have true seeing - and if they do, they are likely using spells much more often than physical attacks (and spells don't care about AC either). Purple raid style bosses? Sure, you can tank them with AC - or simply avoid them through maneuvers.

I'll repeat what I said a long time ago in this thread. The changes to defensive mechanics are good because they made it so that standard DPS melee can achieve a higher relative level of defense than the previous system allowed (casters were far harder to damage, even at close range).

The average person reading this thread should not be shooting for 170 AC and 50+ saves (I assume paladin splash?). That would be extremely debilitating for any sort of standard group play of which I am aware.

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I specifically said End Bosses ... like what you quoted me but in regards to Red Names ... they are a joke in general as are most bosses now. This tank build triviallises all end fights and red names in the game so far. EE LOB excluded as not tested yet .. see below.

This thread is about AC builds. I am posting my experience with an AC build. High AC and High PRR = easy button for the party imho.

A point to note. This build has high threat generation but has very low DPS. So you can get and hold agro, you can stay alive easily .... but you take forever killing stuff if you are by yourself. This combo suites team play not solo. I built it for guild raids.

The build is a pure lvl 20 fighter, is not hard to achieve and the gear it requires is not difficult to grind. (no harder than most end game builds). There is a grind for fate points so you can twist but that is purely game time grinding and is garanteed success. (run favourite XP quest 2-300 times after you hit XP cap etc). The high saves come from the twists and destinies. I put no effort into getting the saves that high ... it just happens. i.e one ofthe twists give +6 AC and +6 stacking reflex saves. I wanted the AC and the saves were a bonus.

We ran Epic Hard LOB last night. 7 Man, 1 FVS healer, 4 guildies, 3 puggers, 1 being a first timer. It was a joke and another snooze fest. I did get mournlands cursed this run(stacked 3 times) but it only dropped my HP by around 200hp (seems less than pre updates, I wonder if the mournlands curse has an amount of perm damage applied less your PRR ... that could explain it ... interesting). I still took next to no melee damage and really didn't need healing at any stage. At one point our FVS died then took the res during blades and died again lolz. I think the Arti scrolled healed me more than the FVS which was like 1 heal every 30-60 seconds.

Hoping Epic Elite is a massive jump in difficulty. I need to finish my destiny grind and finish a couple of pieces of gear before then so I can hit the magic 108 intim.... although ... I didn't use intim much anyways. A smart party will mean you won't need it.

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Originally Posted by Nitesco

Exactly what DPS capacity does your build have? Anyone can stack on the AC bonuses and have no-fail intimidate, if that's all they are building for. What can a build like that contribute when not 'tanking'?

My Stalwart III has Improved Trip and Stunning Blow with DC's in the low-mid 50's, Power Attack, Greater Two-Handed Fighting, Improved Critical: Slashing, Overwhelming Critical, most of the Legendary Dreadnaught Epic Destiny, 1000+ HP, 60+ Intimidate, Improved Sunder, an Epic Antique Greataxe etc.

I'm almost never 'tanking' and almost always take an active role in CC. With the extra dice/range/multipliers, I'm also putting out significant DPS.

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Well in the post you quoted I acknowledged that I should probably take OC by +3 LRing for 2 fighter when I get the chance, but I don't consider the +1 multi on 19-20 that big of a deal. And I won't lose any AC doing it.

It's not like I run around in max tank mode when I am in a DPS role, or like I went with high dex or whatever your idea of "building completely for AC" is. There just aren't all that many ways to "build" for AC. Apart from being a defender and having combat expertise which both give a ton of AC, most of it is gear and epic destinies. 80% of the time I use a 2 hander, LD destiny and DPS gear. I have 50 STR which while it might seem a bit on the gimp side from a fighter perspective is not too bad for a human paladin.

Of course in max tank sentinel mode the DPS is bad but I only use that when I believe it will be more useful than the dreadnaught DPS will.

It seems to me like you run your character with the same gear/destiny/twists all the time, which I find very strange. It's not like having the defender set in my bag prevents me from also having the kyosho set, or like having a lesser conv bracers of superior parrying in my bag for when I need extra amp, saves and AC prevents me from also having eclaw bracers, etc.