Oh and I forgot to include spellpower pots too!
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Oh and I forgot to include spellpower pots too!
Increase the duration of Many Shot for additional Ranger Levels.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnbeimnech
Ranger 7-12 --> + 1 sec per level (6 sec total increase)
Ranger 13-18 --> + 2 sec per level (18 sec total increase)
Ranger 19 & 20 --> +5 sec per level (28 sec total increase)
Leave the cool down as is...
AP is a reasonable idea, low in the tree I would hope.
It is true, Manyshot is not a ranger specific feat, but it is auto-granted to Rangers.
It is not a large stretch to see how a class with an auto granted feat would gain auto granted improvements to said feat. (Dodge and Sneak attack for example).
This idea would give more levels of Rangers a needed boost compared to mulit-class builds, while not negatively affecting the other builds.
As for how what / how Manyshot is / works - that is another (important) discussion.
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by Propane
Increasing the duration of manyshot while reducing the number of arrows per volley is another way to deal with the so-called lag problem caused by four missile pulses.
I'm still far from convinced that any such problem exists, for reasons outlined earlier in this thread. Nor do we actually have dev confirmation that it does, just it's "expensive".
Anyway, if each pulse were three missiles rather than four, and manyshot lasted 27 seconds, the number of missiles fired would be similar. Although it would make the initial pulse less powerful, it would also mean there would be two pulses which could benefit from abilities with cooldowns of between 20 and 27 seconds.
That's another possible solution which might also satisfy burst and hybrid melee/ranged types, while keeping those poor server hamsters safe too.
Thanks.
I've never actually tested it, but have always been assured that they were the same bonus, so I went searching. Based on the thread below, the arrows don't add anything other than the enhancement bonus, and that does not stack with the bow bonus. Apparently they were different in 3.0, but not in 3.5 (I'm quoting the thread on this).Quote:
Originally Posted by J-mann
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Mean-Anything
Except it doesn't really matter - your bow will almost certainly be as good (or better) than the conjured arrows, unless you deliberately ignore Enhancement Bonus when Cannith Crafting to make a lower-ML bow. Additionally, there's the first AA core: "Any bow you equip gains a +1 Enhancement bonus for each arcane archer core ability you possess. (This does not stack with the bow's existing Enhancement bonus.) " So you'd end up with +6 arrows, +6 from AA, and +7 from Pinion for... +7 total.Quote:
Originally Posted by ComicRelief
Personally, I'd rather they work on something else than waste time changing Conjure Arrows to provide a non-stacking bonus that will almost certainly get overridden *except* in a very specific case. The only thing Conjure Bolts' increased bonus ever did for me was to make the stacks created in an Arcane ED not match the stacks created in a non-arcane ED and thus not show up when I conjured the one, hotbarred to keep an eye on the number, switched EDs, and then conjured another stack when I started getting low.
(As an aside, I always wanted Fletching to involve crafting bolts from trap parts instead of the current functionality, to provide mechanically-crafted bolts rather than arcanely-conjured ones, but with the same basic effect as Conjure Bolts/Conjure Arrows. Except you could also craft flaming bolts with Fire Trap Parts, holy bolts from Magic Trap Parts, etc. Give 'em the same 1K stack size as conjured bolts and make 'em 75% returning, a selection of bolts crafted at a trap station would've gone a long way *g* )
Unless I'm misunderstanding the explanation, by changing Manyshot to Doubleshot, Rangers will be losing out on a whole bunch of proc's that are dependent on hits, not on damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikarddo
So no, bad idea.
I don't have any monchers, but I also am not interested in a mixed melee/ranged build. This is supposed to be a tree for AA's, which are a ranged build. I shouldn't have to go to other trees to get what should be basic enhancements for my tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikarddo
Unless they change the procs to happen on doubleshots as well.... AND lift the artificial cap on ranged alacrity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aletys
FotW is an epic destiny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aletys
Any word on the modification of Paralyzing arrow to include Intelligence and maybe Charisma in the DC calculation?
Us Harper Agents need some love.
make sure you guys have it right when great crossbows shot faster then longbows.... it seem SOO wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Severlin
Right. Enhancement Bonus of weapon *or* ammo (highest thereof) adds to both to-hit and damage, just like melee. They're not separated. +1 Bow with +5 Arrows = +5 Bow with +1 Arrows = +5 Bow with +5 Arrows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aletys
Bows, though 2-handed weapons, are treated as 1-handed weapons for purposes of augments. So, do I now need to carry 4 of each bow (5 if force is going to be included), one for each spellpower? Even if bows got two augments, I'd still need at least 2 of each to cover the all the elemental spellpowers. Plus one for the bow with my meteroic star? And what about bows with no augments on them? Trash them all? That is nuts. Grant the spellpower in the tree.Quote:
Originally Posted by CeltEireson
That would make intelligence builds top dps and top crowd control. No tradeoff, and i think there should be one. Also why i'm against giving wisdom to damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ykt
You wouldn't need to do any of that stuff. You would have the option to. I often use potency items when i don't want to hassle with optimizing individual spell powers. Optimizing everything should be more work. There is also non weapon gear that has spellpower on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aletys
Yeah, I actually made that same point earlier. Not exactly what I meant, but there it is anyway. Perhaps what we need is to either have the conjured arrow/bolt +'s be stacking (can make them get a stacking plus every x levels and cap out lower - so instead of getting non-stacking +6, get up to a stacking +3?), or maybe have them add to ranged power? I'm still liking the idea of a third AA stance, though. Even though I know it won't happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by LrdSlvrhnd
Probably.
;)
Back when I played PnP, we used the plus of the bow to count toward "to hit" and the plus of the arrow to count toward "damage". That actually makes more sense to me. (Not suggesting it be that way in DDO, I'm just sayin'...)Quote:
Originally Posted by LrdSlvrhnd
;)
Clearly you have never played a caster, even casters who get a lot more then Elemental Arrows out of elemental spell power don't max every elemental spell power (most of them at least, maybe 1% or 2% of all casters build an Elemetalist but they don't need to that is just their choice). Pic 2 to keep maxed (Force/Acid for instance) or close to maxed since augments aren't going to max a spell power. You really just want all power handed to you with no need to work don't you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Aletys
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by Grailhawk
I also think gearing for max spellpower is going to be pain for imbues.
One solution might be to work a potency item/effect in somewhere, and then have an augment on your weapon for your preferred element.
Thanks.
So with bab 28, 60 dex, and 49% doublestrike:
A repeater gets 60% more attacks than a bow per minute.
A shuriken elf ranger 17/monk 3 gets 97% more attacks than a bow per minute.
So arcane archers will need a new tier 5 power to improve bow alacrity or more doublestrike. Make it not work with 10k stars to help pure ranger bow users....
And is slayer arrow going to still work with repeaters and shurikens after the revamp?
So his suggestion to treat bows like two handed weapons is legitimate and should be done. But saying that a Ranger will need to max out 6 types of spell power is an exaggeration at best and a lie at worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by blerkington
Devotion, Force and one Elemental is what a Ranger will need if you want to swap Force or the Elemental for Potency that can work yes there will be some gearing involved but it won't be that difficult.
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by Grailhawk
No, I don't think it would be worthwhile to gear for spellpower in all areas. A main and an alternate seems like a good balance between convenience and being able to hit high spellpower values for the preferred primary imbues.
The fact that the AA secondary imbues allow you to bypass some DR also helps this situation too, because it could remove the need to slot augments for that purpose. Now that DR is a serious defence again in newer content, that ability seems more valuable than before.
Since potency boosts healing and all forms of spell damage, people who are more interested in convenience than power could get away with just that one effect. Maybe we will also start to see some new named bows which have potency, devotion, or elemental spellpower boosts on them.
Thanks.
Yes I noticed that when I searched stacking and ddo, but at one point they did change the rules, not sure if it was with 3.0 or 3.5, but in 2ed It worked that the bow was for to hit and the arrows for damage AND dr breaking (I know this for sure.... many many hours playing baulders gate :) ). I think it might have been 3.5 because I thought it operated the same in my old 3.0 players/dm handbooks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aletys
Hmm, dont procs double when a shot triggers doubleshot? Thats very odd and should ofc be changed if it does not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aletys
Actually, I do play spellcasters, both divine & arcane, and I keep several sets of spellpower/focus weapons which are hot-keyed, & swap back & forth depending on what I'm casting. It's a royal pain & takes a way too much inventory, but it's effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grailhawk
Of course it all depends on what % of spellpower the devs choose to use - I was looking at 100% which is the maximum they're likely look at. its certainly possible they go for lower. Even 50% spellpower factoring in would still be worth it but until they give an indication of what level of spellpower affects the arrows itll be hard to know whether its worth putting the effort in to get spellpower to a high level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grailhawk
It would be nice if Lamma would open and stay open for more than a couple days so that we can actually test and give solid numbers regarding why the proposed changes are lacking. As it is, I think the numbers given so far are telling, but I would like to make several builds and work them out to post numbers. I don't currently have an archer capped since I'm in the middle of a TR, but if someone that does can make a comparison of live vs. proposed, that would also be good.
Just please, dev team, consider the following:
1. We all have different work schedules and RL demands, so please don't toss up Lamma during the week and then take it down againshortly thereafter. Last time I think it went up on a Thursday and came down on a Sunday, giving people almost zero time to actually test a thing. I know I worked Thurs and Fri, was sick on Sat, and then tried to test on Sun with no luck. It's frustrating.
2. Please take our testing into consideration for another round of discussion before doing anything. I recall most of the other class passes taking several rounds of Lamma builds, with feedback and changes being made during before the final product was released. In contrast, the ranger passes have felt really rushed and as if only relatively superficial things were changed (excepting the crit bonuses).
3. I would still prefer the entirety of changes be done at once - the full AA tree plus manyshot/10K. There's just no way to properly test out the changes without having them in full.
Exactly, previously I had a reason to use a bow. If manyshot gets nerfed any farther away from my melee dps why range at all. 90 precent of the time swords are better unless the live manyshot is up and even then it just competes and isn't better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basura_Grande
As others have stated imbues should scale with ranged power. The storm dancer, venomed blades, and knight of the chalice light damage all scale off melee power. This is a ranged damage enhancement tree thus should use ranged power otherwise why was it implemented in the first place? Please don't ruin the tree by forcing people to try and fit spell power into their gear layout.
You know, the Imbues scaling with spell power is the one thing I have 0 complaints about in this update.
IMO the changes to "Elemental" Imbues are spot on and make sense thematically. If anything, the other classes who are adding "light" damage or "elemental" damage to their attacks should ALSO be affected by spell power.
But for those complaining about the imbues be affected by spell power, can you honestly tell me you have a RP or MP GREATER then what is easily obtainable via +spell power items? Making it RP/MP would actually WEAKEN the elemental imbues significantly.
Daft idea here but how about making Manyshot a clickie like Cleave is? Have it have say a 12 second cooldown or something like that and that would solve the problem of the lag but it might be a nerf to DPS depending on calcs. On the upside though you wouldn't have the 2 minute cooldown after a 20 second burst so I don't know if it would help either way but it's the only suggestion that hasn't been suggested (I think) :)
Stoner81.
QTF this is spot onQuote:
Originally Posted by Xionanx
Hi,
Two other areas of the current AA tree which really could use improvement are:
True Strike: This seems pretty useless to me, just filler. Maybe it could gain a small boost to damage as well, or be replaced completely with a passive ability which gives +2/3/5% chance to hit, +3/6/10% fortification bypass, or something else minor but actually worth taking.
Action Boosts: These are pretty terrible too, and I find myself wondering who, if anyone, uses them. I guess they might be useful to someone running in LD as an extra source of boosts, but in themselves they are bad. What about changing it so there is a choice of haste boost and sprint boost instead?
Thanks.
Some interesting thoughts here on the Arcane Archer revamp. I'll be looking forward to the changes in the elemental damage arrows but I'm a little concerned about the capstone in the tree. Since the DC's will be based on wisdom (as proposed) wouldn't be helpful to have that capstone also give a wisdom bonus and a dex bonus? Or maybe a selector for either or? Just a thought here. I just don't see a lot of Arcane Archers maxing out their Wisdom scores but maybe after this change goes live I will be proven wrong.
What I get from this is AA (both Elf and Ranger) will get 1d8 base ele up to 4d8 with all ele types. That is pretty unambiguous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
The part that I do find ambiguous is the "Elemental Damage". Is it that you can chose to add 2d8 at each tier to a specific damage type and can simply chose the same type multiple times and it is added to the already existing damage.
Does this mean that it would be 11d8 for one element and 4d8 for the rest? This would be somewhat balanced with SA and KotC actually. SA dice are handed out like party favors, but fort keeps SA in check. KotC is unstoppable (IIRC, bonus: vampires are weak to it) but also brings ghost touch, vorpals undead, and capstone makes everything good. The elemental damage can be resisted and immuned by many things, forcing a stance change or respec. Even 7d8 would be substantial compared to the current 1d6, but pretty weak compared to SA and KotC.
It only would take 6 levels of Ranger to get 4d8/11d8 from AA (T5 takes 5 levels and CL12) and Metalline Arrows (Ranger 6). It also gives Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, and Manyshot.
14 Paladin would give 3d6 from KotC, Holy Sword (14 min of +1 crit threat and multi), full BAB, Fear Immunity, and Divine Might.
14 Rouge gives 11d6 SA (and more if you go halfling or human), 1d8 poison dmg, loads of skill points, traps, improved evasion and opportunist.
14 Warlock has two interesting tress. Enlighted Spirit gives 3d6 light dmg (that scales with spell power), fear immunity, 5d6 + 7d4 Eldritch Aura, and spells. Soul Eater lets you do dirty things with 4d10 Consume debuffs and 2d6 extra dmg vs Consume targets.
This would make for some very interesting 6 Ranger splash builds.
~~~ The Manyshot & 10K Stars Conumdrum ~~~
I've been keeping up with the thread and I still don't see a solution to 10K Stars & Manyshot conumdrum when comparing Monkcher style builds against Pure Archers that don't take Monk levels for 10K Stars.
I took a look at some (dodgy) math, and based on 1 arrow per second and enough Wisdom to make 10K Stars shoot at 2.5 Arrows per volley on average, I reached the following basic Rates of Fire calculated over a two minute time period:Manyshot / 10K Stars / No Doubleshot: 2.25 Arrows Per second
* The Monkcher
Doubleshot 75%, No Manyshot: 1.75 Arrows Per second (Obvious :))
* A more a-typical full time archer, Doubleshot based build
Doubleshot 75%, Manyshot: 1.88 Arrows Per second
* Previous build but with Manyshot use factored in
Doubleshot 27%, Manyshot: 1.64 Arrows Per second
* This represent a Melee-orientated Ranger that needs to bust out the Bow
Interestingly, based on 1 arrows per second there's an intersection where more and more Doubleshot outweighs using Manyshot with the current penalty:
Doubleshot 100%, No Manyshot: 2.00 Arrows Per secondDoubleshot 100%, Manyshot: 2.00 Arrows Per second
Doubleshot 133%, No Manyshot: 2.33 Arrows Per second
Doubleshot 133%, Manyshot: 2.165 Arrows Per second
These figures will all scale on the same ratio, so the actual number of arrows shot at BAB28 for example isnt needed for my purposes.
In short even these simple calculations show me how far ahead the Monkcher is in terms of basic Rate of Fire and why its a successful build over a non-Monk build. But in terms of making changes to Manyshot, 10K stars, and factoring in the following goals:1. Reduce the number of actual projectiles shot
2. Ensure that non-Monk, Full time Archer is a viable top tier build
3. Ensure that Monkcher remains a viable top tier build
4. Not obliterate 10 Thousand Stars for Archery use
5. Retain Manyshots 20 seconds of 'Quick Barrage' use for melee orientated Rangers
~~ I think I have a solution ~~
The Premise
Essentially, what the idea boils down to is that Manyshot becomes the de-facto feat for improving ranged Rate of Fire, while still allowing 10 Thousand Stars to contribute.
Manyshot
I propose that Manyshot is actually a feat that grants two sub feats, as follows:1. Quickshots
20 second duration, 30 second cooldown. While wielding a Bow weapon, activate to grant a bonus to Doubleshot equal to 4x BAB. While Quickshots is active, your Doubleshot may produce a third arrow if it rises above 100%.
Activating Quickshots puts Bombardment on a 30 second cooldown as well.
2. Bombardment
20 seconds duration, 120 seconds cooldown. While wielding a Bow weapon, activate to shoot two arrows per second for 20 seconds, and the characters Doubleshot ability is set to 100% for the duration of the ability.
Activating Bombardment puts Quickshots on a 120 second cooldown as well.
(I couldn't think of better names, feel free to change to suit).
10 Thousand Stars
This feat also comes with the following changes:1. The feat is restricted to Throwing Weapons only.
2. The feat has a passive component added: The character gains a Doubleshot bonus equal to half their current Monk level.
Doubleshot
1. The Doubleshot penalty is removed from both Manyshot and 10 Thousand stars.
Results
I think this would accomplish the goals set out above, as:1. Introduces additional flexibility to the Manyshot feat adding to how the Archer wants to play.
2. Quickshots becomes the defacto Rate of Fire increase, available to any Archer build
3. Quickshots should provide a general increase in the actual amount of arrows shot over time, keeping Fury of Wild adrenaline shots relevant as well the regeneration of Adrenaline attacks
4. Bombardment still allows for a 20 second ... well, bombardment... of 4 arrows per shot that we're still used too on our Melee Ranger builds
5. Bombardment still allows for a nice big burst of damage if needed on a full-time Archer build, at the expense of not using Quickshots for some time afterwards
6. Bombardments use of a defined Doubleshot percentage should reduce lag cost over the current 4 arrow design of Manyshot
7. 10 Thousand stars is still a relevant feat to take for Archer use, as it provides an extra 3-10% in terms of overall Doubleshot ability, without making a non-monk build almost 40% behind in terms of Rate of Fire. In plainer English, it won't suck to build a non-Monk archer but doing so still gives slight edge based on actual number of chosen Monk levels.
8. Using Doubleshot percentages should reduce the penalty of shooting multiple arrows in terms of lag cost
9. Doubleshot ceiling is only exceeded when Quickshots in use, tying it to a specific feat rather than making it generally available and avoids 'Doublestrike-Ceiling-Discussions'.
And, finally:
* Arcane Archer is completely freed from the discussion of Manyshot vs. 10K Stars, and can be balanced around it being a 'general' Ranged tree available to any Elf, Sun Elf or Half Elf archer, instead of being limited by Rate of Fire discussion elsewhere.
* Discussions about some small Alacrity bonuses in Arcane Archer can be entered into, with the knowledge it won't be unbalancing one build against another. This of course would need to be balanced against Quickshots ability to provide a defined amount of native Rate of Fire increase.
* Smaller amounts of Ranged Power can be used judiciously to level out balance issues.
There you go. Hope that Helps :)
I really love theses change and all your work on it !!! Just giving my opinion on some point :
1- DC of Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows based on wisdom is the good thing to do. Many peoples are crying about it and wanna have this based on dexterity, it just ridiculous. Maybe we can imagine something like "Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier OR Intelligence Modifier Or Charisma Modifier ( The highest apply) + Enchantment Spell Bonuses. This can bring more variety.
2- Elemental Arrows scaling with spell power : I just have to say thanks !!! This was one of my suggestion and I m happy of your attention !!! Some peoples are saying "There really isn't any room in their gear set for this" to have spell power as combustion ect... Theses person must be blind because there are plenty of stuff giving spell power and in all case, you just need a bow with a red slot to get it... EASY !
3- Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger): I dont think that the "+1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier" is the best thing to get for AA. Because doing so, you just want AA playing as furyshooter with slaying arrow.
Maybe a high ranged alacrity as rogue mechanic could be better, something like +50% attack speed with bows. Dont forget that Bows are 33% firing and 67% reload for the full animation, so multiply the change in speed by 66% (a 10% bonus to ranged speed nets 6.6%)
OR a 100% doubleshot and your others doubleshot bonus gives you a chance for a 3rd arrow.
OR something like my "Nimble Shot" suggestion https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=archerforever
4- You really have to remove the doubleshot penality after using manyshot, it s killing all the work to have this hard doubleshot bonus
5- Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger): +4 Dex and +20% doubleshot. I think you can find something much better for a Capstone, just remove the doubleshot bonus and give some spell power, maybe AoE damages for elemental arrows or something different but plz not a doubleshot bonus.
6- Slaying Arrow: Be careful when reworking this skill, it s the only thing making arcane archers avaible in DPS for high EE quests as fury shooter. ( Now DwS can be avaible too with the new Headshot but it s both tier 5)
7- Shattermantle Shot : Make it an AoE centered on your target, doing -1/-2/-3 to all save and spell resistance, max 5 stack ( no AoE damage, just a debuff)
You completely ignore the fact that rangers have access to significantly more Doubleshot than monks, a fact which should be used to balance against 10K stars. You then proceed to completely nerf Monkcher by making 10K stars give very little to archery. Finally, you use BAB which means that Tensors become very important which to me would be annoying for no reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
Well, i appreciate the reflexion and the work, but i really dislike the mechanic you are talking about in your suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
1-Don t change manyshot, it s very good as it. Just remove the doubleshot penality.
2- 10k star is really good as it, because it s a lot of work and investment to hit this goal with armor restriction, ki, feats ect...
3- I already did a suggestion about it, to get a dex based feat similar as 10k star ---> https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=archerforever
And here, we r talking about new Arcane Archer enhancements so let s talk about it and not monkcher :p
Rangers, as a class, have no more access to Doubleshot than Monks, as a class, do. The Doubleshot obtainable all (generally) comes from Arcane Archer, with DWS having +20% Doubleshot in a Tier 5 ability. If this is taken, then that rules out taking Slayer Arrow, which I think most full time Archers would be loathe to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikarddo
The classic Monkcher builds that take AA as a racial enhancement tree would have access to slightly more Doubleshot, not less, because of the change to 10 Thousand Stars, and if they really want the 20% DWS they can still take it since most Monkcher still take 6+ Ranger levels.
Using BAB follows what the Devs have already stated in their revised version of Manyshot; I'm just following on an extrapolating from that idea.
Your also welcome to come up with your own solution, if you think mine sucks.
But none of this resolves the problem that Archers other than Monkchers cannot compete or compare in terms of Rate of Fire, which is very important point of this discussion. Regarding your own points:Quote:
Originally Posted by archerforever
1. Bombardment is essentially the current Manyshot at BAB 15+, i.e it produces 4 Arrows per shot. Its just less work (less lag) for the engine to do because two of those shots are produced using an automatic 100% Doubleshot.
2. 10K Stars is good, and its still a worthwhile 'buy' for a Monkcher build because of the Doubleshot bonus. This would allow the Monkcher build to potentially edge out a Ranger build in terms of Rate of Fire (3%-10% Doubleshot) but it comes at an opportunity cost of a Feat, which is a worthwhile tradeoff.
3. Does it really need to be that 'complex' to make any other Archer comparable to the Monkcher for Rate of Fire? Really?
Finally, we can't talk about Arcane Archer without talking about Manyshot/10K Stars, because of the imbalance that 10K Stars imposes on any change to an enhancement tree that is available to both flavour of builds.
You didn t read it : https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=archerforeverQuote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
There is nothing complex in this and yes if everyone want that archers (not monk) can be as good as monkchers in some way, we must find an equivalent feat with other restrictions as 10k star.
Cause the REAL problem is that even with 100% doubleshot bonus, you ll never be as good as a monkcher.
Oh I did read it, and as far as I can see, your solution:Quote:
Originally Posted by archerforever
1. Requires you to spend another feat on a non-Monk build to achieve a similar Rate of Fire as a Monkcher
2. Requires +10 higher Dexterity over 10 Thousand Stars equivalent Wisdom score for the same number of arrows? Why penalise Dex users?
3. Requires you to wear Robes or Outfits, for the highest Dexterity bonus to apply to give the highest chance of Arrows shot? Why penalise Fighters or other heavier armour users?
4. Continues to nerf Doubleshot into oblivion. Why force a choice of Manyshot & Nimble Shots vs. using Doubleshot 100% of the time?
5. Actually shoots more actual arrows, where a stated Dev goal is to reduce the number of arrows and let Doubleshot take some of the engine work away from calculating all these arrows
6. Requires the following calculations to work out how many arrows you need:
1st extra projectile : 3 x (((Applied armor dexterity Bonus x 2)-10) / 2) + 30 percent chance
2nd extra projectile: 3 x (((Applied armor dexterity Bonus x 2)-10) / 2) -20 percent chance [minimum 34 Dexterity with a light armor 12 max dex bonus equipped)
3rd extra projectile: (((Applied armor dexterity Bonus x 2)-10) / 2) - 15 percent chance [minimum 52 Dexterity with a robe/outfit to apply your 21 max dex bonus
vs.
Looking at your Doubleshot score.
I'm sorry, but Nimble Shots isn't the solution we need.
10k star needs zen archery, Nimble shot needs weapon focus ---> and yes 10k star or nimble shot, same investment of 1 featQuote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
Because 10k star users are in robe so less PRR and need ki to activate (so more investment in feats, twist of fate or enhancements to have ki regen), nimble shot can be used in heavy armor so REALLY MORE PRR, no SP cost, no ki cost, no penalities in here, just different build possibilityQuote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
One more time, no penalities in here, just different build !!! You choose to max your DPS with robe OR you choose to have less DPS and higher PRR with light, medium or heavy armor. Don t forget that a mithral light armor doesn t have any max dex. One more time, more possibilityQuote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
Because everyone is crying about archers without 10k star and doubleshot is not the solution in any case cause doubleshot is BAD compared to 10k starQuote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
10k star working the same way and no one complain about itQuote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
You dislike my idea, I sure dislike yours. All is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
AA Core 6 Master of Imbuement adds +20% Doublestrike which a pure ranger can get but a monkcher cannot. Killer in Deepwood needs 23 ap in that tree which may not be possible for a monkcher as the monkcher may also need ap elsewhere for healing (halfling) and/or passive ki-regen (monk tree) neither of which the pure ranger needs. If the monkcher goes the Elf route even more ap needs to be spent in that tree. Killer is debatable as a difference but Master of Imbuement isnt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
I already did post my suggestion to a solution btw several pages back in this thread thank you for asking. You are welcome to go back and read it if you missed it on your first readthrough. You will notice that I advocate Doubleshot working during Manyshot as well which means that even a modest difference in Doubleshot will be quite an equalizer. Comments are definitely welcome.
Link: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5701337
You must see closer ;) https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5700788Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
I think you might see more build variation if each type of Elf got their own AA Enhancement Tree that is very similar to each other but still brings something unique. This way we get an Elf AA, Half Elf AA, Morninglord AA, and maybe a Drow AA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Examples:
-Morninglord gets Imbued Light Arrows (maybe have this change to negative energy if in an undead form as a Wizard)
-Drow get AA shuriken version
-Elf AA ???
-Half Elf ??? Maybe have its uniqueness depend on its dilettante (is that too much to ask for?)
There's absolutely no reason why an Elf/Sun-Elf/Half-Elf Monkcher couldn't pick up Master of Imbuement either. Players may prefer Halfling or another racefor there own non-DPS related reasons, but the fact is Monkchers can have access to the same amount of Doubleshot as a Ranger if they want it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikarddo
The only thing I don't particularly like about your idea is that you turn 10K Stars and Manyshot into Nuclear Missles, and not a Barrage of arrows like the theme suggests and as the feats previously played.
1. Poor argument, here. Theoretically Manyshot needs an investment of Point Blank Shot & Rapid Shot already, while a Monk has to take Zen archery to even be centered with Bows. There's no need to alter things to make Archery even more expensive in terms of feat requirements.Quote:
Originally Posted by archerforever
2. Between GM/Master Earth Stance, Iron Skin, Standing with Stone, Sightless or something similar, Past Lives, ED abilities, there's plenty of PRR available to an Outfit wearer. If Nimble shots magically makes it into live somehow, and I magically decide to roll a full time archer, I sure as hell wouldn't ever consider wearing Heavy Armour.
3. Seriously?! Wearing Heavy armour under Nimble shots, would be like a Monk having 10K Stars and only 12 Wisdom according to your own table. You create a character that goes all in on being a Full time archer, and then limit its chance of respectable DPS and Rate of Fire under Nimble Shots by wearing Heavy Armour?! That's not build choice, that's insanity at work.
4. Devs have already stated that Doubleshot ceiling can be potentially lifted allowing for more than one arrow to be produced. Why is Doubleshot so bad if we have enough %Doubleshot for a guaranteed 2 arrows and a good chance at 3 arrows per shot, all the while costing the engine less in terms of calculation?
5. People live with what tools their given to work with. Doesn't mean that simplification and ease of use shouldn't be a reasonable objective when there's a chance to improve a feat.
6. Its not about emotional 'liking' or 'disliking' for me. It's simply the fact that what you've suggested doesn't fit the stated design goals from the Devs.
Apologies - I did skip over this a little.Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiro
If I'm not mistaken, your ideas are actually quite similar to my own. The real significant difference is I've put in a way to keep that 4 arrow, 20 second burst ability of Manyshot in while costing the engine less overall performance.
You are right about Elves and Master of Imbuement - I stand corrected. Not sure why but I had the Elf AA tree wrong for some reason. The ap looks very tight though, 41 in AA, 21 in Deepwood for the 4th core and 14 in Elf doesnt leave enough to get passive ki regen from the monk tree or KtA. Also, elves are taller than halflings meaning worse IPS though definitely better single target dps or dps against taller mobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
Wrt Nuclear missile vs Barrage I dont understand your point though. If the barrage of 3-4 arrows always hit the exact same target anyway there is no practical difference between making it one huge hit with a larger chance to crit/vorpal/proc etc vs 4 smaller hits that combined equal the one larger anyway.
Hear hear! Cheers to thisQuote:
Originally Posted by archerforever
You do know that crossbow users CAN and DO use the elemental imbues from Arcane Archer, right? I don't know if it's working as (you) intended, but I do know that it HAS been working and for quite some time now. It is very easy to make the imbues work- I'm sure someone can tell you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Severlin
My point is this: When testing one class/build against another, I want you to make executive decisions with all the knowledge you can. I am NOT advocating a nerf to crossbows or advertising an exploit. I AM hoping you will address just which class you wish to be the ranged-damage superior? With much lower rate of fire, bow users need a little help...https://www.reddit.com/r/ddo/comment...and_crossbows/
To incentivize a 50/50 ranged/melee ranger, would you consider a high melee bonus to AA capstone or level5 tier ability?
Thus u aren't saying im a 90% ranged b/c my tree cap forced it
Yeah crossbow can use arrow of slaying and most imbues but not the bludgeoning/etc 2ndary imbue.
Shuriken can use slayer arrow but not imbues.
Have the AA core provide more double shot % to help reach the 100% double shot cap in epic levels.
10k star and many shot primary function is to provide range power boost rather than double shot boost.
Make many shot have a chance to proc another arrow based on dex. Similar to how shuriken expertise and advanced ninja training have 2 different calculation to produce extra shuriken.
Make the Elven AA Core a bit different than the Ranger AA Core by giving ranger 12 18 and 20 Core Range alacrity / reload speed to balance out the 10k star range power boost and the mobility (run speed and abundant step) of 12 monk build.
How about this for the capstone; Mystic archery: +2 DEX, +2 WIS, 10% double shot, +1 DC to all arrows and you gain arcanic shot. Arcanic shot: you inflict 100 force damage (scaled with force spell power), must have bow equipped (5% chance to trigger per shot).
Well... Our ideas are quite different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arlathen
First, in yours, Pure Monk Archer without Ranger levels (or Manyshoot feat) is garbage using Bow and Arrow. In my idea, Pure AA (Manyshoot feat only) is only small ahead then Pure Monk specialized in Bow and Arrow (10K Stars + Zen Archery only)
Second, in your idea Ranger with free Manyshoot and AA Tree is the best archer with no drawback, while Monkcher, must somehow managed to have full BAB, and one of: acquire about 15% more double shoot or pick Elf and spend 14 AP to get racial AA - just to be equal. For me with so much more cost, they should be better, at least like 10% more DPS.
In my proposal, Monkchers are better if they managed to have high Wisdom (>65) full BAB (Tenser) and same Double shoot as AA. Then they get about 10-18% more DPS, depend on RoF.
Third in you proposal you kept old mechanic that grant same as today Burst damage, but only for Manyshoot feat. I decided to give one time clicky with different cooldown for both feats, just to keep the balance.
In shot: Your idea is good, but need more balance. The worst part is that you made Manyshoot feat even more OP, the best and "must have" feat for all archers in game. And keep old, laggy mechanic in Burst version.
I just want to point out that I do no see Occult Slayer as a viable mix with AA - none of its clicky attacks are ranged - melee only. Plus the increase to the passive damage is all using melee power and not ranged power. Arcane encumbrance is nice on a ranged character, but the price is a bit excessive for racial AA to obtain. Now if some of the other enhancements there were ranged compatible, I would hear this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
If you are taking the uniqueness of an existing racial AA tree "seriously", I would consider taking a look at some of the other class trees to see whether you want to add some ranged power are allow some of the special attacks to work ranged as well.
A reminder that we don't expect this to be the last time we touch the Arcane Archer tree. We are sad we can't get to everything we'd like to right now, but realistically we're looking at a lot of work for update 29 coming soon, and we didn't want to push Arcane Archer entirely out of 2015. We do appreciate the many ideas here, though (some of which mirror ideas we've been thinking of anyway, or which are better than ideas we'd been thinking).
Slaying Arrows are so ridiculously powerful that we're pretty sure there's range somewhere between for "pulling back" and "meh". We also don't have any specific plans for Slaying Arrow right now - any changes to it are going to be dependent on DPS testing. Part of the reason for this is because we feel having so much of the power of AA in this one ability isn't healthy and also makes it harder to balance the tree. We would not want to have to nerf everything else in the tree just to make Slayer Arrow extra super powerful. (For instance, if we find we have to drop 250 to 200... it's still going to be incredibly awesome.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace_ana
As mentioned several times, we have more changes planned. Just not Soontm, unfortunately.Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiro
An interesting idea, but Manyshot is intended to be essentially class-agnostic. That doesn't mean it's entirely impossible, but we wouldn't want to the word "Ranger" to show up anywhere directly in the ManyShot feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Propane
We could add new automatically granted feats to the Ranger class that affect Manyshot, but we tend to shy away from that if there's another way. Still, duration of abilities another interesting knob we could adjust, and it's good to remember all the tools in the toolbox.
Doubleshot and Manyshot both create additional real arrows in the world, each making their own separate, constant collision checks as they fly through the air.Quote:
Originally Posted by FestusHood
It's not ideal. It's also deep in the code and risky to touch.
Additionally, it's not merely the collision checks that cause issues. Adding all of the extra on-hit effects (including damage effects) is not insignificant, and something we try to cut down on when we can. (For instance, in designing new items and abilities, etc.)
Hi Devs.
Can you please post a consolidated list of where we are with the proposed changes to AA? A list of things scheduled for the pre-update 29 update and what is scheduled for the future (update 29+)?
Also, if you know the time lines, when we should be able to see this on Lamannia and which update we are targeting for the first round of AA changes.
All of these ideas shooting back and forth, it would be nice if we reset to see where we are in the process.
Slaying Arrows are so ridiculously powerful that we're pretty sure there's range somewhere between for "pulling back" and "meh". We also don't have any specific plans for Slaying Arrow right now - any changes to it are going to be dependent on DPS testing. Part of the reason for this is because we feel having so much of the power of AA in this one ability isn't healthy and also makes it harder to balance the tree. We would not want to have to nerf everything else in the tree just to make Slayer Arrow extra super powerful. (For instance, if we find we have to drop 250 to 200... it's still going to be incredibly awesome.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
when you have melee that can do 1000 pts with a hit or casters that do 10,000 with ruin or warlocks that clear a room of trash with tentecles and 3 blasts, how can you say 250 or 200 is overpowered. with the nerf to manyshot this won't stack as high with less arrows, correct?
For leveling, the number of arrows already scales with BAB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Requiro
We're concerned about monkcher vs. pure ranger vs. racial elf balance. It's a hard problem, and every single solution we've seen so far compromises one way or another. Thanks to everyone who's been giving some suggestions along these lines. Figuring out the right compromises is difficult.
We're actively trying to smooth out the damage for Archers. We understand many players really do like the burst aspect of Manyshot, and we don't want that to disappear, but making Archers more bursty than they are currently is definitely not the direction we're looking for.Quote:
For Burst damage:
- Remove Cap with Double shoot (and call it Multishoot)
- Add +1[W] while Manyshot is Active
This is a dangerous ability in terms of actually making players happy. Veterans don't ignore bonuses like these, they tend to consistently be upset that it's not something they would find more useful. A frequent problem in item design is that we cannot put on "extra" fun or cool or thematic effects onto items without knowing there will be complaints. If you see "Featherfall" on an item and you don't feel like you need Featherfall, there's a good chance you'll be upset that it's not something else you do want -- even if the item designer wasn't considering that any part of the item's real power, but just put it on because they named it, "Roc Lobster" and felt a bird-related power was thematic. This has been proven true time and again across many players.Quote:
- Add Ranged Alacrity 5% on level 12 Ranger, 10% on level 16 Ranger and 15% on level 20 Ranger. It's not stack with Haste, so most Veterans will ignore that bonus, but New players will be happy to have one.
Maybe someday.Quote:
- Add new spells, that will improve QoL for Rangers, when leveling (there are some suggestion around, mine is here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...y-2-new-Spell))
I'm not sure what this means. If you mean reducing the number of arrows you get while manyshot is active and getting more while it's not active, that's already true with the current proposal (that reduces number of arrows while active and removes the doubleshot buff). If it's not something like that, I'm not sure I understand. (Adding passive Doubleshot is an idea, but not having -100% adds a lot already...)Quote:
For on hit effect:
- Adjust number of Arrows in total 120 second to be close that we have today by adding passive Doubleshoot in Manyshot feat.
Elemental Damage adds two more dice to each of the elemental stances you've already taken. Elemental Damage isn't tied to a particular element.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultria
If you take Fire at tier 1 (for instance) you start with 1d8. If you only take Elemental Damage after that, four times, you'd end up at 9d8. I personally wouldn't recommended skipping tier 5 Improved Elemental Arrows, but it's an option.Quote:
Does this mean that it would be 11d8 for one element and 4d8 for the rest? This would be somewhat balanced with SA and KotC actually. SA dice are handed out like party favors, but fort keeps SA in check. KotC is unstoppable (IIRC, bonus: vampires are weak to it) but also brings ghost touch, vorpals undead, and capstone makes everything good. The elemental damage can be resisted and immuned by many things, forcing a stance change or respec. Even 7d8 would be substantial compared to the current 1d6, but pretty weak compared to SA and KotC.
If you took Fire at tier 1 and Cold at tier 2, each would then be at 2d8, because they all give +1d8 to each element. You give up an element choice to get another +1d8 to each element you did take.
So you could get both Fire and Cold up to 8d8 if you wanted, assuming you take Elemental Damage at tiers 3,4,5.
To put it another way, these Elemental Stances deal damage equal to:
- 1d8 per Element you pick
- 2d8 per Elemental Damage you pick (which doesn't give a new Element option).
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganak
Deepwood Stalker is explicitly designed for melee/ranged builds.
Arcane Archer is not really intended for melee builds, and we don't expect to change that.
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
As a pure arty I alternate Endless Fuselodge and Manyshot on several toons. Typically I get off 2 Endless Fuselodges while Manyshot is on cool down.
Sidenote, last weekend I finally finished Livmo's Pinion and slotted it witha ruby. Funny, because I have other toons like this with a maxed Pinion and still working on their Needles.
Hi Varg
While you're answering questions could I ask if there's any indication of what spellpower multiple will apply to elemental arrows and whether empower or maximise will be allowed to count towards that?
Thanks
[QUOTE=Vargouille;5702680]For leveling, the number of arrows already scales with BAB.
We're concerned about monkcher vs. pure ranger vs. racial elf balance. It's a hard problem, and every single solution we've seen so far compromises one way or another. Thanks to everyone who's been giving some suggestions along these lines. Figuring out the right compromises is difficult.
{/QUOTE]
there is now way to balance moncher vs ranger vs elf unless you tie cooldowns for ranger and monk. any buff to ranger pushes moncher up unless it's in 18+ ranger core or tied to ranger level to give ranger a bigger boost than moncher.
nerf anything in the tree and ranger hurts more as moncher has monk abillities to fall back on.
ie nerf manyshot and monchers move to doubleshot and 10k use instead and rangers loose. nerf 10k and rangers don't care. monchers move to manyshot and doubleshot instead. only way is to make many shot and 10k better for those with more ranger or monk levels respectibly while making those with both a little less than having only one. ie tie ranger levels to manyshot bonus and monk levels to 10k bonus. so full or 18 ranger have better manyshot than lvl 6 and 18 monk has better 10k than lvl 6. and if 10 ranger 10 monk, then you have both but at a lesser power than pure. but having both makes up that gap and maybe a little more.
- Add Ranged Alacrity 5% on level 12 Ranger, 10% on level 16 Ranger and 15% on level 20 Ranger. It's not stack with Haste, so most Veterans will ignore that bonus, but New players will be happy to have one.
This would be good for rangers to make up the moncher difference and help the needed dps capacity if it stacks with haste as many others have indicated that a booste to bow speed is needed to keep up with other ranged classes that got it when it wasn't appropriate at the time compared to other ranged styles. ie crossbows. why is great crossbow better than a bow? a great crossbow should take rounds to reload. ie fire 3x faster with bow for much less damage than a great crossbow does. (d6 vs d12)
We've had a lot of discussions about DC, and we're currently inclined to keep them scaling with Wisdom and Enchantment.
- We know there are lore reasons for CHA and INT (or just INT, if you go way back). We're sympathetic to this. There are further ramifications to choosing or allowing INT or CHA that we're currently not looking for (interactions with Harper and Mechanic, for instance.)
- We know Dexterity would probably be the most (easily) powerful. Power does not the same thing as good or interesting builds.
- We know players are mostly not building for max Wisdom right now. That doesn't mean it should be bad to allow it to strengthen an existing ability.
- Yes, we know monks often build a lot of Wisdom (though it may or may not be a primary stat for each build). We don't expect that this particular change is going to be responsible for monkchers being overpowered. We are trying to balance monkchers and there could be further changes relating to them and AA, but we don't think this is the place to do it. (Amongst other things, DPS is probably a bigger consideration and this wouldn't greatly affect that.)
The 20 + Wisdom + Enchantment proposal remains an improvement for nearly all Arcane Archers, and with only moderate build consideration is quite a lot stronger (equipping a single strong Wisdom item somewhere, for instance). Full dedication to these DCs rivals the DCs of full caster classes, and we don't want them to exceed those caster DCs.
The hob approves!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Those builds with low wis will function the same, will adding the potential more builds. more builds is good!
do we have a timeline? I know you have have said before the end of the year, but thats kinda vague
the one thing i am concerned with is the manyshot changes.
are they coming out at the same time as aa pass? that would make sense, but not sure if it works for this.
thanks for the input guys!
This is the one that bugs me. I don't particularly see the need for other stats either, so I'm not arguing with you, but I dislike that monkchers get SO much use from their single Wisdom stat, whereas a more intuitively dex based character like a dedicated, pure Arcane Archer is going to be diluting their other stats in favour of Wis or risk being much worse. Essentially, I feel that a pure class AA should have the best DCs (on average I mean, not automatically. i.e. a pure AA should simply not have to try as hard as a multiclass to get effective DCs). But I feel that a multiclass monkcher will win out if both try to build for wis - that said, I am no build expert. My assumption here may prove unfounded. If true however, then it seems somehow wrong to me that a multiclass should more easily obtain better DCs than a pure class.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
I think perhaps I would prefer to see ranger level factored in to the DC more.
Could you do 10+enchantment+epic levels+the greater of Ranger Levels OR Wisdom bonus? Or something like that?
How about basing the DC off the number of points spent in the tree in some way (I dunno, 10+enchantment+AP invested in AA/5, no wis involved or something)? So if you want max DCs you're going to want to fill the whole tree if you possibly can, cutting down on options elsewhere? Is that a really bad idea?
Dear VargQuote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Thank you for clearing that up. It very clearly shows that adding alot of doubleshot is very bad idea and since that is at the core of the official ideas for changing manyshot and 10k stars it very clearly means that those ideas are not very usefull.
The "staring in the eyes" obvious solution is to simply change 4 arrows (MS) for 1 arrow that does 4 times as much of everything associated with hitting with an arrow. That means normal damage, crits, vorpals, procs, DC effects, imbues etc, etc. I point to post #371 in this thread where I posted the details on how I could see that done though the specifics are much less important than the core idea. So, consider the idea more than the details first.
In short - swap 4 "smaller" arrows for 1 "huge" arrow that does 4 times as much of everything.
As a monkcher I cannot say I am happy with this. Most likely the DC will still be so low that you only hit 5% of the time on EE - and now everyone will point to monkchers having easier DC as a reason to lower their relative dps. So, I foresee monkchers paying a price for something thats either unwanted, of no real value where it matters or both. So, while I understand your reasoning I dont really see this as a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Sev earlier sounded very serious and on a holy mission to reduce lag. Be that by taking away the many from manyshot or reducing the number of players per instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
I don't see why you decide to NOT go after the source of the problems. doubleshot and manyshot should never had been coded to create multiple arrows if physics checks are not totally insignificant. Probably the coder at that time was thinking "Why add a piece of code into the arrow to make it proc multiple attacks on collision instead of creating multiple arrows on an earlier level and let the existing code do the rest." and saved some developer time. But if 1 or 3 extra arrows are indeed creating a problem with physics checks, that part of the code should be looked into again no matter the developer time. (besides, sev seemed prepared to sacrifice parts of the game to fix lag)
I remember these events all too well. Most players just said 'flavor', but the real solution isn't to remove flavor abilities (which many like) - its the communication.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
The Dev's need to get ahead and stay ahead on items with flavor abilities. Make sure to tell the Lamannia forums that one or more new items have flavor abilities (and say which items) and most importantly, I can't stress this enough, say that since these are 'flavor' abilities, they aren't counted toward total power of the new item. Just like you just explained, but a) ahead of the release to Lamannia, b) reverse the description so that flavor abilities aren't counted toward total power, and it is either there or not there (no substitution etc).
Keep em coming!
Just remember the old Army saying: tell them what you are about to tell them, tell them, remind them what you told them, ask them to tell you what you told them, then remind them of what you told them. :P :rolleyes::eek::cool:
Thanks Vargouille for respond. I think that we misunderstand in some point.
Yes it is. But new Manyshot is MASSIVE NERF for leveling:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Number of Arrows per shoot
Level 6 11 16 Today 2 3 4 After changes 1,24 1,44 1,64
In my suggestion, it's quite balance. Racial Elf is best with Monk, but that cost you 14AP. So can't take all the AA stuff and also can’t have DWS T5 as the option (depend on Arrow Slaying nerf)Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
My proposal wasn't add any more bursty. I suggest improvements to NEW Manyshot feat. Thus 4 arrows NOW vs 2,5 (maybe?) arrows +1[w] AFTER. 4 Arrows that produce each on hit effect are more bursty TODAY then 2,5 Arrows with less on hit effect, but with +1[W] each in CHANGED one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Sorry Varg, but I can't agree. You design lot's of abilities, that are obsolete or redundant for the sake of flavor or versatility. And yet now you consider that Veterans will be upset. No they will not be upset IF this improvement not be next to great one (like Elemental Arrows). But yes, they will be upset if this will be next to poor one (like AA Capstone). And BTW: why Veteran mood is more important then possibility more fun for New players?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Just sad :( I suggest existing in game spells. Why just no add them? But yea - let leave empty slot spells for high level Rangers - that's way better move /ironic offQuote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
I mean adjust number of Arrows that character can shoot in the 120 second period, that is more like today number of Arrows. This can be scored by (for example) adding Passive Doubleshot ability to Manyshoot. Thus after the active burst damage, for the next 100 second, you get sometimes extra shoots from passive ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Right now, with your suggestion with manyshot, the number of arrows shoots in total 120 second period are significantly lower - which you guys try to compensate by Ranger Power. But this will not work for some build that depend on "to-hit" effect.
The Sun Elf Morninglord, http://ddowiki.com/page/Sun_Elf_%28Morninglord%29Quote:
Originally Posted by dunklezhan
You have to spend AP to get to tier 3 enhancements, then another 4 AP to unlock the Arcane Archer Enhancement Tree. I have never played monk and I have never splashed monk. I would like more WIS offerings added for my pure Sun Elf. Here is a glamor shot:
I would like more WIS offerings, because I also cast and do build for max. WIS (affects spell points). My favorite spells are Sun Bolt, Sun Beam, and Implosion. It would be great to get to Hit and Dam with WIS. Perhaps it could be restricted to X levels of Sun Elf/Cleric (i.e 18 levels or pure 20 build)?
what is your expections of a DC that a ranger can reach and what is the mobs dc's for epic levels for the same? ie if a wisdom based ranger maxing at low 40s dc's but monster dc's in 60s then it's not reasonable buff if it still only fails on a 1Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
So you are choosing to ignore the fact that the only "Class" that benefits from this change is the Monkcher.:rolleyes:
This is why I uninstalled this game. You developers all have the worst track record for listening to common sense, and I am sick of it. Players have given you MANY GOOD AND VALID REASONS to make it something else but you choose to ignore them, and not just with this.. time and time again it happens. You just don't even care.
This is supposed to be the "Ranger" pass, this is supposed to be making the "Ranger" good. But you are more concerned about multi-class builds then making a proper pass for ranger. It should NOT matter if you break a multi-class build! Guess what. Players WILL MAKE A NEW BUILD USING THE NEW TREES. THAT IS WHAT MAKES DDO FUN! Finding a "Build" that is good. Its what breaths life bank into a stale game, a build being broke and needing to be redone to be competitive again.
"Ranger" pass should be done in a vacuum where you assume NO OTHER CLASS EXISTS. You want to build a thematic class that has unique tools and abilities and is capable of getting through the content of your game. Once that is done, let the "Builders" make the crazy combinations that make it OP. Who cares! This isn't a PvP game.
RIOT does it with LoL - One build is "good" they go around and change the champions making others better
Blizzard does with WoW - Class's and systems get changed all the time to keep the game interesting
so on and so forth.
Why are you guys so against making a change for the BETTER for the "Ranger" class because you are worried its going to break a "Build" that a small portion of the players currently use. Why is this suddenly a thing? Why wasn't it a thing years ago?
Explain why I still cant be a "Batman Build" then? I want to have Full Plate + Improved Evasion + Full BaB Bonus + Amazing Saves + Top Tier AC.. You need to go back in time and reverse the changes you made that broke the "Batman Build" since apparently its now your policy to not break multi-class builds.
I am hitting my breaking point here... DDO has had many opportunities over the past year to make changes for the better but it seems like whoever is in charge has no clue on how to do that and refuses to listen to the community. Its not JUST about ranger at this point. DDO has potential, but its being driven by a bunch of fools.
Dex based archer can obtain 51 standing DC without sacrificing main stat. I think the goal for Dex based archer is to shoot for ~50 DC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thar
20 base starting
3 enchantment feats
1 elf DC
18 DC from Wisdom, 16 wisdom base + 4 tome + 3 enhancements (2 from AA tree) + 1 (level up spending) + 2 (fury destiny) + 3 insightful + 12 gear + 1 exceptional + 2 spooky bonus + 2 guild bonus= 46 wisdom
5 enchantment DC from sages cloak or 7 from ring from recent update
4 DC from AA tree
Only caster monsters have will saves higher than 60. And most endgame monsters have will saves at the 50s. So, no. They don't only fail on a 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thar
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
You say this like it's a fact, but it just isn't.
Slayer arrows only allow massive damage to be generated in combination with FoTW. At upper heroic levels and when running in epic destinies other than Fury, it is not a particularly powerful ability.
Please, show us the Shiradi Champion, Primal Avatar, Shadowdancer, Divine Crusader, Unyielding Sentinel, GMoF and even LD builds which make slayer arrow as powerful as you claim. Making changes to how slayer arrow works will affects other builds apart from Fury archers too.
What makes this discussion so frustrating is the extent to which the developer team is ignoring any points raised which conflict with their narrow and problematic vision of how bow combat should work. It is, like some other posters have observed, like having half a conversation.
Your current approach to dealing with manyshot is going to do more to break certain ranger builds than fix them. It will do very little to address the core problems of archery, equalise 10k and non 10k stars builds, and equalise archery with other ranged styles. Interesting choices my backside.
Thanks.
THIS has to be one of the biggest and most difficult of all the changes to the classes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Hats off for posting and discussing the changes. And a BIG vote of encouragement from long-time ranger fan.
If you people pull this off without stepping on too many toes, AND bring about a vast improvement, then I will renew my one year sub. :cool:
Either way, you all have done a great job on everything so far, and Im sure this will be the same.
I would like to ask for DCs be Character level + other bonus, so don't are Overpower in heroics; like stunning shield working in giants near all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
All Arcane Archer builds benefit from the proposed changes to Paralyzing Arrows etc., compared to what is on live today. We'll have to disagree on that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xionanx
We explicitly acknowledge that Wisdom based classes benefit more if DCs scale with Wisdom (instead of nothing). No one has denied it. This of course is not only monks. We only bring up monks specifically re: DCs because player feedback has asked about it.
Player feedback asked for it NOT be Wisdom because "monks would be overpowered". We disagree that this would make monks overpowered, or that this would be the right way to balance monks if we're wrong and they need balancing. There are other places for that.
Apologies for any confusion. Monks aren't a reason to make Arcane Archer DCs scale with Wisdom.
Absolutely!Quote:
You want to build a thematic class that has unique tools and abilities and is capable of getting through the content of your game.
Which is why monks are not a reason to NOT make it Wisdom. We agree with this philosophy.
Monks are not a key, overriding factor for the choice of Arcane Archer DC. That is what we are saying. If they were, we'd be less likely to choose Wisdom.
I don't understand the content of this feedback, but see the frustration.Quote:
Originally Posted by blerkington
This is the key statement. Either changing Slayer Arrows affects those other builds because it's an important part of the power, or it is not that important to those other builds (so they wouldn't be as affected by any changes).Quote:
Please, show us the Shiradi Champion, Primal Avatar, Shadowdancer, Divine Crusader, Unyielding Sentinel, GMoF and even LD builds which make slayer arrow as powerful as you claim. Making changes to how slayer arrow works will affects other builds apart from Fury archers too.
Either Slaying arrows is powerful for many builds, or it isn't. The argument here seems to be "don't nerf Slaying Arrows because it's only powerful with Fury of the Wild and nerfing Slaying Arrows will hurt other builds too much". If other builds don't get much power out of Slaying Arrows, then they won't be hurt by any changes to it. If they are getting much power out of it, then of course we're concerned about it. The fact that it's a fairly granular ability that we can fine tune helps. Adding +1 Critical Damage multiplier is not at all granular. +/- 1 is a huge difference. Being able to change the current 250 to 240 or 510 or 184 or 286 makes Slaying Arrow a finer-grained tool we can use it to try to hit the target.
Perhaps more useful: Compared to Swashbuckler, what kind of DPS do you feel an Arcane Archer should have? Are there non-DPS aspects you think should be changed about either one?
Reminder that we don't even have any changes for Slaying Arrow planned. We're just trying to be up front with what we're thinking about.
This is pretty true. A build that wants AA but wants to play other destiny is probably better spending 11 points in Deepwood for sniper shot and foregoing AA completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by blerkington
AA pass looks to solve this problem, but slayer arrows are only good when critted and as far as I'm aware only in fury can you not only ensure crits but also magnify the damage.
Varg
Please answer this. Do you consider a monkcher in FoTW an "A+" build wrt power right now? (we are ofcourse talking about using the synergy from Manyshot + IPS + Slayer Arrow + Adrenaline). Do you see this build competing favorably against warlocks, rogue mechs, barbs, paladins etc? I generally dont and point to the fact that there are very, very few monkchers left in the game with each of locks, mechs, barbs and pallies outnumbering monkchers by a factor 10 easily.
Also, do you acknowledge that this build actually plays differently from many other builds in that you need to line up a string of targets for IPS before you hit that furyshot? Do you also acknowledge that flatlining the dps of archers even if its at a sustainable much higher level would kill of that type of play thus removing a build that actually differs in playstyle from the game?
Finally, are you really dead set on making that happen as it would seem from just about every post you and Sev makes? Right now it seems to be the case as you appear to ignore every suggestion to keep that playstyle viable but focus only on things that flatten the dps making it boring instead of fun for those of you that thrive on that IPS instakilling 5 trash mobs even if we come in well below the top sustained dps classes. Will such a playstyle be discontinued now?
Manyshot + IPS + Slayer Arrow + Adrenaline should not be seen as a problem - but rather as a very positive thing exactly because it allows for a playstyle that actually differs! So, sure solve the lag issues claimed but stop seeing the burst damage playstyle as bad - anyway, if you really want to see burst damage look towards tree builds... Kindly dont nerf a fun playstyle thats at best a "B" build as right now.
This isn't a goal.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikarddo
There's some kind of confusion here. Perhaps there's some issues with shades of grey here, but we expect that this build will still exist and be viable and supported. There's no goal of nerfing this playstyle per se.Quote:
Manyshot + IPS + Slayer Arrow + Adrenaline should not be seen as a problem - but rather as a very positive thing exactly because it allows for a playstyle that actually differs! So, sure solve the lag issues claimed but stop seeing the burst damage playstyle as bad
Yes, we do want to bring up the sustain and therefore want to be careful to not also up the burst or overdo DPS overall (but we're not there yet). Unique play styles are basically one of the best things in DDO. That doesn't inherently grant them immunity to changes or (gasp) nerfs.
Some players have suggested that Manyshot should just be something like X% Doubleshot, purely passive, end of story. We're specifically not looking in this direction, specifically because we don't want to "flatline the dps" (nice spin of phrase there, implying death!), even if it would increase sustain, which is a goal.
Many players have pointed out that a problem with Manyshot is that the balance is feeling ineffective while it's not active. That feeling is a problem. Getting 80 seconds of DPS over 20 seconds, and then 100 seconds of DPS over the next 100 seconds, is interesting but possibly extreme.
4/9 of your damage comes in 20s, and then 5/9 over 100s (just accounting for Manyshot). In a perfect world, what would those ratios be (including the times)? This is not rhetorical, and we can expect that players won't generally agree on one answer. There are surely some players who would love to do five minutes worth of damage in 1 second and then do nothing for five minutes, as well as players who just want steady constant damage output and wouldn't even want dice being rolled. Those different styles even have strategic uses.
HiQuote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
I am quite stupefied by your arguments. I've made my concerns about your proposed changes very clear in the numerous other posts I've already made on this topic, as have others. Very few of them have been addressed.
Now while I don't care AT ALL if you don't respond to me personally, I do care very much whether this part of the game is made worse after you start tinkering with it. In particular, with your proposed changes to manyshot, the game seems about to become much, much worse for people playing the classic ranger melee and manyshot build, and for burst damage archers.
'Either slayer arrows is powerful for many builds, or it isn't' What? What?! There was a day where the developers tried to nerf how adrenaline interacted with manyshot and slayer arrows because there were concerns about how powerful it was when all used together. The game was in a different stage then, and melee damage output was nowhere near as high as it is now, but it has certainly been identified as an outlier before.
Are you really claiming an equivalence between the amount of damage put out by an archer in Shiradi with Fury? Do you really consider them similarly powerful? The amount of power available from the enhancement is one case massively increased by the damage multipliers it gains from adrenaline, but doesn't in the other.
Do you believe that slayer arrow is so powerful, archers who obtain it go on to dominate all heroic content, as much or even more so than any other build, after gaining that key ability? Compared to which other Tier 5 enhancements? Outside of FoTW, it produces less damage to fewer targets (taking into account that it's significantly more difficult to line numerous targets up than pull them into a clump) than many lower level spells do, costs a fair amount of SP considering the smaller pool available to archers, and has a longer cooldown.
Do you not see, that by reducing how the ability works on builds which are already weaker, it makes them even weaker still? This does not seem like the thinking of a team which wants to promote build diversity despite its frequent claims that it does. What it sounds like is you saying you are aware that the vast majority of archery builds possible are terrible and it doesn't really matter that they remain terrible or become even more terrible.
What your response tells me is that your team has absorbed next to none of the concerns raised in this thread, and also that you are in fact quite close to finalising your changes despite the feedback being provided here.
So I recommend you go back through all of this thread again, locate all the cases there criticism is being made of your proposals, formulate a response to those concerns, then publish it all here. There is really no point in asking for feedback from the community if you don't consider it and cannot provide a coherent and fair response to all criticism.
Thanks.
I think it's obvious that if you nerf slaying arrow in any way, it's going to be a nerf to every single builds. Slaying arrow outside of the fury does so so damage. Majority of people use slaying arrow combined with abilities like Manyshots, just to bring highest DPS possible. But because of the long CD, it can be used only once as most powerful ranged attack. If you planning to buff this ability or change it , why not give slaying arrow multi selector?. 1) 250 damage (as it is). 2) low damage + scaled with spell power to suit other builds, EDs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
I think, considering the fact that arcane archer is arcane + archer build. It would be very effective if you could allow players to choose whatever slaying arrow they like to give them more freedom in their builds. Instead of just buff or nerf it as single ability then listen to people complain.
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
It should be very obvious by now from these discussions that one size does not fit all.
Your challenge is to find a solution which does not unduly favour builds needing a more even delivery of damage or builds which rely on bursts (whether melee/ranged hybrids or full-time burst archers).
If you cannot do that, the change to manyshot is going to be an abject failure and very harmful to our enjoyment of the game.
Thanks.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: You've already been presented with a number of suggestions about how to do this.
One of which is to leave manyshot as it is, then make slayer arrow a choice of two enhancements.
Slayer arrow 1: Classic slayer arrow, 250 pts, no change to doubleshot penalty after manyshot. Good for burst damage types.
Slayer arrow 2: Reduced damage slayer arrow, 100 pts, doubleshot penalty after manyshot is reduced or removed completely. Manyshot is less powerful than before, still provides some burst ability, damage output during manyshot downtime is improved.
Doing the maths will fill in the blanks for how much slayer arrow 2 should do and how to handle the reduction/removal of the doubleshot penalty.
There are likely to be problems with this suggestion, but this TYPE of solution is how to solve the issue of helping all bow users, not just full-time archers.
It is more like: Slayer Arrow is the most powerful attack of any ranged character that is not linked to any conditionals. The main problem is that it is part of a very specific combo that make it seems overpowered: Adrenaline + Manyshot + Slayer Arrow. This combo raises the power of the attack by at least 16 times because it is a multiplier (4 hits) on another multiplier (+400% damage). And that is not even counting the autocrit part of Adrenaline, that can raise it even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
If your intention is to bring this combo more on line with what other active combos can handle (Eg, Mass Hold + Energy Burst/Hellball), adjusting specifically the Slaying Arrow attack will hit unintended targets, like every archer that have it for burst damage but don't use this specific combo.
IMO, this discussion is too linked with the Manyshot revamp to be taken as two separated issues. Changing how manyshot works affect this combo in many ways. If it stay as an action boost-y activation, but no longer shot 4 arrows at a time, it will hit this combo. If it becomes a cleave-like active attack that shoot 2/3/4 arrows at once, you can't use any other active attacks in conjunction with it, removing it from that combo.
I like that you are open and discussing options. Just stay aware that if the real goal is to fight the FotW combo, Slayer Arrow adjustment should wait until Manyshot changes are done.
I would prefer that Manyshot would be changed to one of those options:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
- Active attack, cleave-like. You hit the feat, you shoot more arrows in a single attack, it enter a 6 seconds cooldown.
- Ranged Offensive Stance (competing with Archer's Focus and Improved Precise Shot): Always shoot 2 arrows (Doubleshot chances for a third). Get it as an alternative to raise single-target DPS against AF, but while keeping your mobility.
- Action Boost: Give us 5 20-seconds use per rest, with a 30 seconds cooldown between each use. Categorize it as an Action Boost, so anything that gives extra action boost uses, give extra Manyshot uses as well. Keeping track of your resources is on the player. (Optional) Add on Arcane Archer an enhancement that allow them to regenerate at a rate of one every X minutes (like Radiant Servant allow recharge of turns).
- As today, but giving attack speed instead of extra arrows. Attach a huge boost on it. Think like Endless Fusilade is awesome just by raising RoF on crossbows. Damage output might be somewhat like it is today, but kills the interaction with activated attacks that would otherwise be multiplied by 4 during Manyshot.
If you really want to reduce the power of Slayer arrow + Adrenaline, you would just make the arrow damage be spell damage, scaling with spell power instead of ranged power. The dev team has not proposed that, since it would likely kill the fury build entirely.. but it would make the up front damage more scalable. Is that something which we would want?
Make Manyshot a mode that adds +2/4/6/8[W] to bows. Make it so you can leave it on all the time. Done. Fewer projectiles, much better damage distribution. Sanity restored.Quote:
Originally Posted by mikarddo
Yeah, it won't have the insane burst damage currently available with existing manyshot/arrow of slaying/adrenaline. Aaaand I don't care.
You mean, "make arrow of slaying work like Merciful Shot in DWS" (although Merciful Shot scales with ranged power).Quote:
Originally Posted by Artagon
Basically, old school Slayer Arrows, when it was a proc-on-20 thing that added extra damage instead of an activated effect.
Heck, just making the EXISTING version proc on 20 would make it completely impossible to combine it effectively with adrenaline--you'd have to get lucky, basically.
I didn't say make it only proc on 20, I meant what I said.. you hit, it does 200ish dmg, scaled with spell power.. meaning you could scale it up pretty well since spell power goes up more than ranged power. Adrenaline wouldn't work to boost that portion of damage, nor would crit profile... other than maybe spell crits?Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde
I am mostly a forum lurker. I watch I read I take in all thats here and am very grateful to the devs for your time spent communicating with us. However this post prompted me to post in a way no other post has recently. I hope you find this constructive as I am trying to be fair and balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
I understand my way of playing is my way. I understand there are many other ways and the great strength of DDO is the variety it allows.
I know you have a vision, a plan for all classes and that is good in itself.
But .... and you knew there was a but .... this is not something I can support or even agree with. You have lost me from most of AA tree with this vision.
Let me explain ...
We know there are lore reasons for CHA and INT (or just INT, if you go way back). We're sympathetic to this. There are further ramifications to choosing or allowing INT or CHA that we're currently not looking for (interactions with Harper and Mechanic, for instance.) - So thats a No then.
We know Dexterity would probably be the most (easily) powerful. Power does not the same thing as good or interesting builds. - So thats also a No then.
We know players are mostly not building for max Wisdom right now. - Other than Monkcher who would ? This is no gain or benefit from WIS for a Ranger. Other builds with racial AA certainly options there but also other issues.
That doesn't mean it should be bad to allow it to strengthen an existing ability. - This is very confusing to me. What do you mean by this? "Strengthen an existing ability" ? What ability? WIS? for a ranger? Other than the requirement to have WIS 14 (ie. WIS base 8 + WIS +6 item or tome) there is no overall use for WIS in Ranger, maybe there should be if they had better or new spells but thats not part of this discussion so I am at a loss as to what you mean here? Can you please explain or elaborate what is in the devs minds for a WIS based Ranger? What build or vision is prompting this direction? We have some of the best min/maxer's and crazy out there builders on this forum and I have yet to see anyone propose a strong new Ranger only WIS build. We are collectively scratching our heads here and looking at each other going, what are we missing here? What do the devs see in the quantum flux that we don't?
"Yes, we know monks often build a lot of Wisdom ...." - I'm actually one of the few that are not worried about this build synergy, I'm happy for someone to have this, but unhappy that this is perhaps the primary benificiary of the choice of WIS DC.
The 20 + Wisdom + Enchantment proposal remains an improvement for nearly all Arcane Archers, and with only moderate build consideration is quite a lot stronger (equipping a single strong Wisdom item somewhere, for instance).
This is the core of my dislike and dismay.
Currently for any non monkcher ranger I have seen this is something like : 20 + 2 (WIS 14) + 0 for most of the 1 - 20 levels. Tomes and random boni will improve this so the DC22 will improve over time without any active input. At levels above 10, is DC 22 useful? It will trigger to be sure, but is it worth taking for the 10% 20% 30% ? time it might happen when used? rather than the excellent elemental or force damage changes proposed that trigger 100% ? You can only have one active. And loot bows can replace the DC enhancements in some cases.
I really don't think so and if I put resources into higher WIS the gains/losses equation currently looks unfavourable. You can only wear so many items and have some many char build/enhancement points.
I think that for me the Ranger AA tree will simply be the chocolate sauce over my Ranger DWS ice cream. 41 points DWS, 31 points AA for elemental/force and crit at 18, rest in Harpers or Racial tree and my Ranger archer is done. Shrug. Thats life. Thats still a fun build and thanks for the improvements I will use.
For the racial tree I will need to wait until Lammania is up to see how Druid, Fvs, Cleric builds can work out. There is hope there but without WIS to dam for these I think they will just be interesting but not worth following into epic. Something to try for a change of pace.
Oh well.
Trojan.
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde
This is far too simple to be useful. You will need to read more of this thread before you can make a useful contribution or else we will just keep going around in circles on this.
For example, adding [w] damage to a smaller number of projectiles greatly reduces the amount of damage available from sneak attack. At least the developers' proposal compensates for that loss of damage by adding more ranged power so SA damage scales too. So in that respect, your solution is even worse than theirs.
Then there is also the loss of on hit effects which benefit from larger projectile numbers like mortal fear, additional damage from imbues, on hit ED abilities. All these other things which make a high RoF so desirable for ranged builds. And don't forget, other ranged builds like throwers can maintain a constant RoF which is almost as high as manyshot, so why the same thing shouldn't be available to archers is quite beyond me.
There is something to be said for changing bows to be more like the way great crossbows now work for mechanics, but it's going to take a lot more than a bit of +[w] to make them even vaguely comparable, even putting aside the big SA damage advantage rogues have already. And that doesn't even take into account the existing legitimate builds which would be needlessly ruined by turning archery into a constant RoF style only.
At this point we still don't have a developer confirmation that manyshot is either a reliable or significant source of lag. For reasons already discussed in this thread, this seems quite doubtful to me, and lag is only being floated as a rather shady justification for their preferred solution to the manyshot 'problem'. Playing the game where we negotiate against ourselves by finding ways to ruin manyshot seems really counterproductive to me.
Thanks.
I think the changes look great except I am guessing the dps of a pure bow ranged ranger will be too low.
The whole problem with a bow is the picking your butt damage wise when manyshot is off timer (which encourages you to switch to different weapons) unless you are a monkcher.
The devs seem to have a level headed approach, as opposed to the very large amount of hyperbole and irrational hatred in this thread. Kudos to them for that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vargouille
Your stated goals, that pure rangers, monkchers, and other multi-class builds, will be top-tier dps when this enhancement pass is finished, is exactly what I am hoping for. You have confirmed this will be done in stages, with not all the changes will be put into effect in one fell swoop. Personally I think that is a good idea, allowing for incremental testing/reporting from actual game play. It will allow for changed abilities/enhancements to be adjusted and fine tuned, again a good thing.
This AA tree update is a difficult pass, as it is both an Elven and Ranger enhancement tree, belonging solely to neither. Keep up the good work devs.
To me it is obvious manyshot needs to be a stance. Like minded folks have been saying this for years. So, for arguments sake, let's say we want to reduce the number of arrows deal... ok. So 4 arrows is what, 400% and is achievable at lvl 16. So, lets use the same step process when adding double shot % as a stance. If the going theory is to make manysot a stance granting a double shot bonus of 100%, I would sugest that it should be 33% at BAB 6, 67% at BAB 11 and 100% at BAB 16. Then you can make the 10k stars feat not function while the manyshot stance is active.
Now to go step further for rangers as a class, make higher level rangers more the masters of archery then they are at lvl 12. Grant a 150% double shot feat at level 16 or 18, or, a triple shot feat at level 18 or something like that. Something that gives folks a reason to go beyond 12 levels of ranger. Nothing crazy inho, but I think that would help. I would stay away from adding it to the AA tree because Elf AA mucks it up.
At this point, you can leave slayer arrow alone if you make manyshot as you would not be hitting 4x every single shot. It keeps the burst damage the same, just not 4x with manyshot, and allows for monchers to keep the 10k stars as the burst damage (not a guaranteed 4x) build and give the rangers more dps to off set the lower burst amounts, but still remain viable and very good over all.