Rogue - Assassin Changes

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Originally Posted by bbqzor

Good for you?


For you. Not for everyone. Others might rather do int+traps, or int w/ tactics, or whatever combo. You are talking only about some 20 rog endgame dc focused build here. Thats not the entire tree, or the entire game. What about a rogue/arty multiclass... they might well prefer int. Even if dex was there. Or an assassin+mechanic with traps to split up mobs or cc mobs, allowing them more freedom in engaging single targets to assassinate. That would be nice, and not work with dex.


Without one build that does EVERYTHING better, by a margin thats large enough to be clearly tangible in play, then no. Its not.

Theres no single dex build that does assassinate, trap disarming, trap making/using, dps, stealth, survivability vs melee, permits ranged options and provides equal cross class access that int does.

Youre going to measure only one thing, you think dex is better for that thing. Fine, Im not saying dex doesnt have its ups. It also has its downs, even when looking at one tiny slice, like reduced skill points, trap dcs, etc. You think its worth the trade off fine, but it IS a tradeoff. That slice is not the totality of the tree, the possibilities, or the game. Dex doesnt outclass them all. Just agree to disagree... I cant say which one thing is most important to anyone, only that different things are important to everyone. You like dex, great. Take that improvement, because asking for int to get the same thing so you can just stay int and still wind up in the same place is circular.

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Sorry, nothing you are saying here makes any sense at all. This isn't a matter of personal preference or trade-offs. Dex would be superior to int builds and it's not really close. Int helps in little things that don't really matter such as lowering 2 skills a little so you go from "no-fail" to "no fail". Giving a little more damage on kta.

Turbine really has 2 choices here:

1) Keep assassin tree as int-only
2) Make assassinate better of dex or int and give a few easy buffs to int-based assassins so both are viable

I think the 2nd choice is best so people have more options, but the first option is better than adding dex to assassinate and calling it a day.

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Originally Posted by slarden

Paralyzed enemies are taking extra damage from sense weakness at least on my Shiradi caster, but I don't have paralyzing on my tier 2 thunderforged weapon for my rogue so I don't know.

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On the wiki page I linked in my previous response, paralysis induced by ghoul touch does count as a helpless state. So it might be that paralysis from nerve venom (assuming that's how you're paralyzing mobs on a shiradi caster) also counts as helpless, but I know weapon induced paralysis does not.

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Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

On the wiki page I linked in my previous response, paralysis induced by ghoul touch does count as a helpless state. So it might be that paralysis from nerve venom (assuming that's how you're paralyzing mobs on a shiradi caster) also counts as helpless, but I know weapon induced paralysis does not.

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Nerve venom counts as helpless. Paralyzer procs off weapons do not. Dunno about TF paralyze, never tried it, dont plan to... but if its a copy of the general weapon mutation its not helpless.

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Originally Posted by CThruTheEgo

On the wiki page I linked in my previous response, paralysis induced by ghoul touch does count as a helpless state. So it might be that paralysis from nerve venom (assuming that's how you're paralyzing mobs on a shiradi caster) also counts as helpless, but I know weapon induced paralysis does not.

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Correct, Nerve Venom = helpless, para weapon = no helpless.

I'd just like to emphasis that the proposed builds you see in this thread are for high end rogues with all the best gear with maxed out EDs and fate points. To come close in DPS to top barbs, palies and bards in LD you'd pretty much need to be Epic Completionist and higher on my build (Cocoon, Stealthy, Balanced Attacks, Sense Weakness) and have enough gear and buffs to shore up the loss in assassinate DC from switching EDs and not maxing DEX in favour of more DPS enhancements. It's not something an average player can do.

I'd just like to add that I've seen barbarians do a MASS insta-kill spell. It is at least as powerful as the un-nerfed version of wail of the banshee.

Kinda makes me wonder why we are arguing with each other over teeny tiny buffs.

I've never been one to push for easy buttons, but after watching these barbarians, well... by all means, buff the stuffing out of rogues.

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Originally Posted by slarden

I've been emphasizing No Mercy all along but not everyone appreciates how powerful it so I used SA in the example to just compare raw dps and dex still wins. It's not just balanced attacks, it's 2x thunderforged weapons with paralyzing and mortal fear + no mercy + sense weakness. It doesn't matter how many hp the enemies have they are going down fast.

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Does paralyzing on TF weapons render helpless? Usual paralyzing doesn't. Only hold does, not paralyzing.

By the way, "Mortal fear damage shouldn't be affected by helpless. "

If you have 100%+ dmg on helpless, it means mortal fear proc will instakill any mob including orange named, it's really over-powered. That's why TWF barbs on LD are so-overpowered now. They literally killed mobs within 1 sec at high rate at the toughest contents. No save instakill.

Mortal fear really need a nerf.

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Originally Posted by brzytki

I'd just like to emphasis that the proposed builds you see in this thread are for high end rogues with all the best gear with maxed out EDs and fate points. To come close in DPS to top barbs, palies and bards in LD you'd pretty much need to be Epic Completionist and higher on my build (Cocoon, Stealthy, Balanced Attacks, Sense Weakness) and have enough gear and buffs to shore up the loss in assassinate DC from switching EDs and not maxing DEX in favour of more DPS enhancements. It's not something an average player can do.

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Aye, assassin is a very advanced and complicated build compared to easy-button swashbuckler, barbarian, paladin and shiradi builds. Adding the dex option will open it up to more people because of the extra power you get from the build. Even if you just have no mercy with balanced attacks, stealthy and cocoon it is still really good and can be obtained easily. That is a huge power gain for an assassin without the past lifes to take sense weakness + balanced attacks which is good.

Prior to the harper tree I actually used no mercy instead of sense weakness (although they do stack) and then used daunting roar, balanced attack, damage boost from LD and cocoon as an int build. When the harper tree came out I had to rotate between sense weakness and daunting roar.

A quick rough Dex based assassin to show just how much better it is to an Int one

Dex assassin:
Summary: Pros
-Higher DC at 76 with lesser investment
- Higher HP
-Higher dodge, up to 98/100%
-Improved defensive roll with ~80% chance
-Significantly more dmg, like triple or something silly
-At least as good if not better saves
Cons:
-Less Hamp, though equivalent is possible
-loss of some skills but nothing that is needed or overly usefull
-slightly lower search and disable but still in the nofail range probably or only fail on 1s or 2s

Stats:
28/32/34/36 pt
Str: 8 base +6 tome +8 item +2 ins +2 profane +1 exceptional +2 shippy = 29 (9)
Dex: 20 base +6 tome +7 lvl + 11 item +4 ins + 1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy + 12 enhancement +0 ED = 65 (27) Add +1 twist or drop 1 enhancement or ins
Con: 16 base + 6 tome +11 item +2 ins +1 exc + 2 profane +2 shippy = 40 (15)
Int: 10/14/14/14 base +6 tome +11 item +2 ins +1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy = 34/38/38/38 (12/14)
Wis: 8/8/9/11 base +6 tome + 8 item +2 ins +1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy = 29/29/30/32 (9/9/10/11)
Cha: 8/8/9/9 base +6 tome + 8 item +2 ins +1 exc +2 profane +2 shippy = 29/29/30/30 (9/10)

ED: LD (or Avatar for specific build option)
Feats: (not necessarily in order) – may wish to grab Precision and toughness/epic toughness instead of PA + cleave for LD
1. 2wf
2. PA
3. I2wf
4. G2wf
5. IC pierce
6. Cleave
Epic
1. Sneak Attack
2. OC
3. Precision/toughness/dodge/whatever
ED
1. P2wf
2. Elusive target or some damage one

Dex additional bonuses:
64+ Tensers +4, yugo pot +2, Cartwheel Charge +2 = 72 (31)

Asassinate DC:
10 base +20 Rog + 6 ED + 4 item +31 Dex + 5 MtF= 76 DC

HP:
120 Rog + 80 epic + 45 heroic durability +10 argo fav + 45 gs +20 vitality +40 FL +420 con +20 shippy +10 harper? +60 ED +28 ED con +28 ED con? = 926 +30 toughness? = 956

Dodge cap:
25 base + 2 Shippy + 3 LAM + 6 Acro +3 halfling +10 MtF = 49

MDB:
19 armour + 3 halfling + 6 LAM + 3 shadow dodge +2 shippy +2? Aug = 35 +2 Mobility = 37 + 6 lithe = 43

Dodge:
6 uncanny dodge +11 item + 3 shadow dodge +10 MtF + 10 nimbleness + 3 halfling= 43 +3 SK PL + 3 dodge + 2 mobility = 51
NB: under max dodge setup switch to a robe, use Primal avatar ED and twist in all relevant abilities which will allow you to get to dodge cap of 49 and run at 99% or 100% dodge for 1 minute in every 2.
Will save +2
Fort save no change
Reflex save at least as good if not better

PRR is same unless invincible dodge build then probably less but you won’t get hit anyway so who cares.
MRR: same unless dodge build then maybe less but not a big concern with evasion.

Positive SP the same
Hamp: depending on how you gear the same or less.

ED:
T1:
2 con
2 Extra action boost
T2:
1 Momentum Swing
2 improved PA (if using PA)
1/3 Action boost damage (if using Precision)
T3:
1 Lay waste
3 Critical Damage
T4:
2 Volcano’s Edge
2 Con
T5:
2 Devastating Critical
2 Advancing Blows
T6:
2 Master’s Blitz – PRR version
2 con

NB taking another con would give +28 HP

Twists:
1-Stealthy
1-Cocoon
3-Balanced Attacks
4th slot: Sense Weakness?

Enhancements:
41 Assassin
26 or 31 Acro (imp defensive roll+no mercy/ Cartwheel charge)
8 or 13 racial, harper (KtA)or mech (traps)

This setup includes a redundant dex (odd score) which lets you decide where to pull that dex from and put elsewhere.


I provide two builds sorta there focusing on the LD based as opposed to the Avatar unhittible build but either one out assassinates, out DPSs out lives an int based with no major downside.
While I haven't but a Int based build beside this I worked around my own but there are some similar ones on the forums already you can look at to compare.

People saying that adding insightful reflexes and int to hit and dmg in assassin tree and call it a day - balanced, are wrong. That will never bridge the cap that dex to assassinate would create.

How about instead of devalidating Int assassins, where assassins should shine, Assassins get buffs that work regardless of int or dex based. See my last post for some such suggestions.

Those saying that Dex based isnt vastly more powerful than Int clearly haven't looked at the possibilities of the two and compared them, or they have and are burying their head in the sand to try get a tangental buff to Assassins.

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Originally Posted by redoubt

What does not work about this enhancement?

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"Does not work"means,you need a "kill" to trigger the effect
in most of the time ,you have no killer buff,not to mention 4 stacks

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Originally Posted by draven1

Does paralyzing on TF weapons render helpless? Usual paralyzing doesn't. Only hold does, not paralyzing.

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I have only one mortal fear weapon on this character and I made it into a boss beater rather than a trash beater so I have dragon's edge for tier 2. So I don't know, but based on the answers I don't think so.

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Originally Posted by slarden

I have only one mortal fear weapon on this character and I made it into a boss beater rather than a trash beater so I have dragon's edge for tier 2. So I don't know, but based on the answers I don't think so.

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FYI, Mortal fear doesn't proc on bosses.

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Originally Posted by draven1

FYI, Mortal fear doesn't proc on bosses.

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Well, the 8d8 force damage does, so it's still a good effect for bosses. And it does proc on orange named.

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Originally Posted by dualscissors

The Shadow Dodge nerf was due to a stacking error that clearly was not WAI (1+2+3=+6 Dex instead of 1/2/3 Dex). Perhaps the reason it seems like a nerf to some for the acro tree to grant a 'mere' +3 stat boost is that Dex based rogues were struggling. But seriously, if the game was inundated with lots of +1/2/3 stat boots in various trees at tier-3, you'd see a lot of DC builds capitalizing on them left and right.

But ultimately, no I don't want to nerf acrobats. They've needed some major love. I was just considering the problem of an easily reachable +3 Dex increase with regard to the conversation about Dex > Int based DCs.





I didn't complain about sneak speed being in acro, though I think it probably makes sense for an ~essential ability for a sneak-assassin to be in the assassin tree. By ~essential, I mean that it would be utterly miserable to play an assassinator at regular sneak speed.

As for a mental comparison of Sneak Faster at tier-1 and Dex +3 increase at tier-3, certainly it's a lot easier to dip into another tree at tier-1, and tier-3 takes some effort in AP expenditures. I was making the observation that a 1.5 DC increase from a +3 stat boost is potent grab when you consider that most tier-3 stat increases happen at 1 point increments. This in itself isn't as big of a deal unless you are considering whether one DC stat (Dex) would outclass the traditional stat (Int).

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Fighters and paladins get +6 str or con as a tier 3 ability, drawback being it you can't be raged. Barbs get Frenzy at level 6 which is 2 Str for 1 AP and then Death Frenzy at 18 which is 4 str for 1 AP. The old Shadow Dodge was in line with those, +6 physical stat and a drawback.

As for the DC stuff I'd rather dex be kept as a physical stat for the most part, so stuns and trips are fine but instant kills are not really a great idea for reasons already shown in this thread. It gets worse when you look to the future too, for example if Turbine wants to add a dex boosting item in ToEE they'll be worried about assassinate DC inflation and invalidating int assassins. Acrobats could really use some more incentives to go dex based as do swashbucklers, rangers, monks and the like too, dex for assassinate would not only invalidate int assassins it'll stall any progress making dex viable for other classes too.

Dex used to be a really strong defensive stat with some ok offence but these days not so much. AC is off the cards for most builds and reflex saves are in general less important now since Armour Up. Defensive Roll is the big draw for rogues but for acrobats it's not all that great ATM, lots of gimping to min/max around dex to hit 100 reflex to make it reliable but by doing so you give up a viable stun for No Mercy, heavy armour for more reliable defence, other str synergies like Divine Might's 22.5dmg/15 saves and burning a lot of gear slots/APs/feats to get there.

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Originally Posted by Nothingtoseehere

People saying that adding insightful reflexes and int to hit and dmg in assassin tree and call it a day - balanced, are wrong. That will never bridge the cap that dex to assassinate would create.

How about instead of devalidating Int assassins, where assassins should shine, Assassins get buffs that work regardless of int or dex based. See my last post for some such suggestions.

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If they make those adjustments it should be fine for int assassins. I am not too worried about the defensive benefit - it's not a deal breaker as far as I am concerned. Freeing up a few AP opens up enough good options.

If they don't make those changes I would never consider anything but a dex based assassin which would invalidate int assassin as you say.

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Originally Posted by draven1

FYI, Mortal fear doesn't proc on bosses.

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I know but I want the force damage against bosses. I use the same weapon against trash, but it's optimized as a boss beater.

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Originally Posted by slarden

If they make those adjustments it should be fine for int assassins. I am not too worried about the defensive benefit - it's not a deal breaker as far as I am concerned. Freeing up a few AP opens up enough good options.

If they don't make those changes I would never consider anything but a dex based assassin which would invalidate int assassin as you say.

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even with those changes int would still have far less damage, assassinate DC and defences. Apart from the core flavour of an assassin (a cunning foe) there would be no purpose and no reason to take int it would still be that far behind.
You could reallocate 4 AP to another spot in harper tree but there isnt that much worth taking with them beyond what you would have already taken and you would get a feat back which provides some benefits but nowhere near enough to get back up to viable when you just became the weakest assassinate, dps and survivability Rogue out of dex and int.
I am unsure how you can't be concerned about the defensive benefit. Built right you can get a higher assassinate DC with better DPS (but not the best possible) with 98-100% dodge rating with 1 min uptime and 1 min downtime. Even if you don't take that path in favour of better DPS you will still have over 80% chance to reduce incoming damage by half when below 50% hp.

If you haven't seen this yet though I doubt me pointing it out again will make a difference, you will believe what you want to despite the evidence to the contrary.

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Originally Posted by Nothingtoseehere

even with those changes int would still have far less damage, assassinate DC and defences. Apart from the core flavour of an assassin (a cunning foe) there would be no purpose and no reason to take int it would still be that far behind.
You could reallocate 4 AP to another spot in harper tree but there isnt that much worth taking with them beyond what you would have already taken and you would get a feat back which provides some benefits but nowhere near enough to get back up to viable when you just became the weakest assassinate, dps and survivability Rogue out of dex and int.
I am unsure how you can't be concerned about the defensive benefit. Built right you can get a higher assassinate DC with better DPS (but not the best possible) with 98-100% dodge rating with 1 min uptime and 1 min downtime. Even if you don't take that path in favour of better DPS you will still have over 80% chance to reduce incoming damage by half when below 50% hp.

If you haven't seen this yet though I doubt me pointing it out again will make a difference, you will believe what you want to despite the evidence to the contrary.

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Can you show a decent build utilising this? You'll need to be in Primal Avatar, burn a tier 3 twist, take 8 levels minimum of rogue and then somehow get 23 dodge over the dodge cap.

Best I could come up with was 44% passive dodge with another 10 on the table from tier two Measure the Foe, absolutely rubbish build though that went all in on dodge and would suck as a tree.

Rofl at the Coup is too good badsies. Show me how well your time is compared to dps classes, even with your no fail coup. Oh. Wait. What? It's slower than thf room clearers? Shocking!

So, in the most mob heavy quest your esteemed and deadly insta kill ability still puts you behind? Wow. Much OP. Such stronk.

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Originally Posted by redoubt

I'd just like to add that I've seen barbarians do a MASS insta-kill spell. It is at least as powerful as the un-nerfed version of wail of the banshee.

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No, its not.
- It requires pure 20 barb, so its not something you can compare pre epic like wail is at lv17, nor multi-class with an 18/2 build, etc
- Its save tops out around 60 (to put it another way, if you had 100 con, the save would be only 65), making it so-so on eh and meh on ee
- Its a fear based effect, a LOT of mobs are immune by virtue of immunity to fear
- It has a 6 mob cap, which is less targets than even nerfed wail, let alone old school versions
- It uses a rage, meaning this cannot be done more than a handful of times per shrine, unlike a spell

Thats not to say its not good. I hit it a couple times a quest in chains where it works, even on EE occasionally for the cc effect, but its not an "unnerfed wail". It looks flashy with all the graphics but its not all that. Its a decent capstone I suppose, after they finally got done messing with it. And its fun and unique. But original wail... not even close.

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Originally Posted by Nothingtoseehere

If you haven't seen this yet though I doubt me pointing it out again will make a difference, you will believe what you want to despite the evidence to the contrary.

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Your evidence is terrible. In Orange:

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Originally Posted by Nothingtoseehere

Dex assassin:
Summary: Pros
-Higher DC at 76 with lesser investment
The DC is within 2-4 points of a comparable Int build, and as everyone has said all along thats expected. You not only include tensers to inflate this, but also Cartwheel charge, assuming to keep that up every 12s along with Measure the Foe every 10s. How, exactly, are you going to tumble, sneak, and scroll that often while still actually doing dps... youd lose so much uptime your relative dps will take a hit unless the party is stopping between every fight for you or something.

- Higher HP
The HP gains are minimal and basically result from LD. That would put an Int guy in SD or something at 830 by your count, which is more than adequate for most things. Frankly I think assuming any rog will fit in all that stuff you listed is a bit generous but whatever its your example.

-Higher dodge, up to 98/100%
The Dodge is over represented stating something like "up to 100%". An Int rog can have "up to 85%" with the proposed changes using the same short term stuff, and thats with zero AP in the TA tree. I hardly think going from 87 or 89% up to 98% is the same order of magnitude youre trying to imply here. All rogues will have crazy good dodge some of the time using their boosts, yes. Thats part of the general change package. The cited values are situational and largely meaningless, for the short duration they apply they are all effectively "really good" in play.

-Improved defensive roll with ~80% chance
Improved Defensive Roll is a help, yes. But its also not something thats a flat necessity. With the changes to Assassins Mark and the additional PRR in the tree, its quite likely you can clear 50 prr regardless of destiny. With the mob at -10 power, that means youre taking ~60% damage mitigation wise. Dropping that to 30% periodically when under half is a perk, but its also not something you would rely on. If youre under 400-450 hp on EE and getting hit, you need healing, like, immediately. Its far more likely those situations are the ones youre going to hit uncanny in and dodge it all until youre safe again. This isnt a "must have" its another "fingers crossed" save. Its basically like another dodge chance, all or nothing. Rogues have plenty of that elsewhere, and a little more helps but isnt night and day. It might mean you take 3-5 hits to take out instead of 2-3. Like a mob that hits for 500, would hit you for 300 under normal conditions, two hits would get you at 450 hp. With Improved Roll, it would be 3 hits, even if it worked 100% of the time. A little better but its not going to invalidate Int. Its just not that big of a change.

-Significantly more dmg, like triple or something silly
"Significantly more damage like triple or something"... okay from what? Dex 65 is roughly similar to what Int users run in their damage stat. You mention considering dropping KtA so theres that. Sure you get blitz, okay, any guy in LD gets that, sure. Wheres the "triple more damage" coming from. Its not from just swapping to Dex alone, and the portion from Blitz would benefit any one, Int, Dex or otherwise. So might need to clarify that figure. And how it meshes with all the stuff youre trying to run every 10-30s which takes animation time.

-At least as good if not better saves
Saves being better, yes. Also, likely AC, though that wasnt mentioned. Those are inherent benefits of Dex. Even if saves were the same, not needing Insightful Reflexes is a perk there, so yes. Saves and AC, Dex wins.

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So what. In the end all Dex really did was let you into LD, because it didnt cost 3 assassinate DC from lost Int via stats in SD or something. Thats it. As a result you gained some hp and dps from LD, and could do enhancement points different to get more dodge, and another ability which basically kind of functions like more dodge. And then claim "triple dps" because blitz or something.

An Int guy in SD is going to be comparable on all that stuff. A little lower on hp/dodge from destiny/enhancement splits. But hes going to be a LOT stealthier, with Stealth Training II and Improved Invisibility available. It is just amazing what you can do at full speed with perm invis in a short window. Thats valuable. He will have much better synergy with the new Mechanic tree, providing some decent combat options now (if they get implemented well) including cc and a virtual party dps buff by reducing mob prr/mrr by 30 (thats like stacking damage boost on everyone, inc casters). And he will have different multiclass options available, for those that are into that.

Consider that carefully. Youll have a slight reduction in hp and dodge, while still having good EE level values at both. Instead you get a lot of unique stealth options, cc effects, and stacking party-wide dmg buffs. Of course, you only get blitz when in LD, but thats life for everyone, and its not like you cannot hop into it when you need it (say, a raid like FoT where theres just nothing to sneak or assassinate). Looking beyond blitz, I really dont think this is some one-sided call. Stealth, cc, party dps, thats a good set of tools too.

All of those are reasons why you might want to stay Int, or use Int in the future even if Dex were allowed. And running in blitz isnt something that you can only do when dex based. An Int guy could hop into blitz too, run the exact same setup, and get the same melee power. The only thing they would lose in this case is some assassinate DC. The rest of the values (hp/dodge/ref/ac) are all similar enough, and good enough, for both that people are going to pick their builds based on what they enjoy, rather than what is best. Thats good. Nothing here is so compelling that its going to take Int completely off the table like people are claiming. And thats without even considering future choices, where allowing both stats is far better than only one.

Look no one is saying dex wont have some gains. But its not going to sink the Int ship. Again:

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Originally Posted by bbqzor

Without one build that does EVERYTHING better, by a margin thats large enough to be clearly tangible in play, then no. Its not.

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All this does is show that a dex rogue has some things it does better, and int rogue still has things it will do better, and that a blitzing rog does more dps than a regular one because of more melee power. I really dont think anything in that conclusion is news of any sort.

I wish someone had some obvious build that met that proof, or could prove the opposite, but I dont think there is one. Its just going to go back and forth and then get passed up and then in the future assassins will be out a whole lot of choices. Like assassin+tempest or assassin+ninja spy. Such is life, sigh.