Monster Champion Feedback

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Originally Posted by Keladon

Sound like you are assuming things? I was soloing on hard. She got killed with 1 spell on hard.

Guarding the npc? The npc that runs after every enemy she sees? For melee mobs, sure, but spellcasters can actually cast at range.
If she actually decided to stay inside that tactic would MAYBE work, but fixing the AI will have to wait, they're too busy introducing other frustrating features first.

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when did she start moving? she never did before. ill check it out for myself in a little when im done running EE Battle.

edit: ok she does move. honestly ive always skipped that quest for the past few years because I already have more than enough xp banked to not need to do it to level.

one thing that Turbine still needs to address is the NPCs that are required to not die to complete quests. there aren't many left that need to be updated. they did it not too many months ago with Coyle. its even more important now with Champions.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Originally Posted by bartharok
"I, at least, have had no more trouble stunning champions, than i have stunning the non-chapion critters. Which means that the champions are not a great problem, since i can just run to them and stun them. That way i dont get hit for thousands of damage (not that i have gotten hit for thousands of damage even when i failed to stun them)"

This is currently by design, but the exact list of possible Champion buffs can change in the future.

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No no no. champions do not need additional buffs. If you make champions immune to stun, paralyze, trip, etc then you are basically saying FU. If you must have these champions, leave us ways to take care of them.

having thought carefully then my suggestions

- do not change anything on heroic difficulties
- remove EC difficulty
- remain current version EE difficulty as new EC(Epic Champion) difficulty
- furthermore champs can apper in EH/EE with low probability

Let's talk about new players.
With a first life 28pt toon, it's harder to kill a crown mob. Possible but harder. Not every-time possible (OS mob with resists, CC ok but some CM have both powered attacks and big resists)
With a new account you do not have enough money in game to pay all the consumable you need, because the death will waste all your money in reparations.
=> go to the cash shop?

Let's talk about casual players.
When you have 2h a day to spend in game, you pay the same than other but you cannot spend lot time to have a full group. When you play at a time when there is few people on game it's became a bit tricky to find a group. I think also about all the couple who play together and need to stop playing instatanetly when the baby is criying, there is not so much pick-up who have the patience to wait for an AFK-baby... So you play solo, duo or trio the most of the time. With the randomly crown mob who can one-shoot, you have difficulty to complete elite quest.
=> go to buy stupid hireling? and stop having a life (no job, no baby)?

So here lots of you tell us : go on normal if you cannot fight the crown monster...
Ok... but normal is not funy, not too challenging even for a casual/new player!
You want fun, we want too. Why taking our fun to have yours?
But ok, we go on normal, 2 lvl highier to have a little bit of challenge. But only the challenge not the rewards.
At this point the new player stop to pay a VIP account because he would probably prefer to pay for the pack quest if he need it, than for a account with a privelege he cannot use : going for the first time in elite.

Now let's talk about favor.
There is around 5k favor to achieve in the game if you do all the quest in elite even the raids.
Such a new and/or casual player can only play on normal mode.
So in normal there is only 1/3 of the total favor : so around 1660 favor.
Such player cannot reach the favor to have a 32pts carracter...
=> go to the cash shop?

some of you have a powered toon, we have not. And with CM we would probably never had one. As it was easy for you to rush completionist, it would be near impossible for us.

Actually like most of casual VIP players I've removed the renew of my account. And I've stop to play, no fun at all to play in normal without challenge, to know that we never have favor for a better toon, to be chain kill by an OS-random, to see the escort one-shoot after 1h playing with cc and baby siter because mobs only pop on him etc.
=> avoid some quest and repeat always the same easy quests???

So I think everybody can understand that DDO is an old game and powered toons need more challenge to have fun. Ok.
But new players and casual players have right to have fun too.
You want fun, we want too. Why taking our fun to have yours?

To make everybody happy :
-just add a thick box with/without Crown-mob,
-or a a new difficulty "CM",
-or make the game intelligent and implement the number/power of CM in regard of the number of the party members, their respective powers (past-life, completionist, 28/32/36pts etc.)
-or make a dedicated server without CM and the possibility for every toon to migrate on it and return on other after when they where more powerfull if they want.

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We love posts from players haven't posted before (and who we can confirm are linked to a unique account or not), though it's unfortunate if the motivation is only because they are upset. Posts from players who have never posted before are certainly something we pay attention to; if someone never felt the need to speak before now and is suddenly motivated, this is clearly one of the most important things they've felt has happened in DDO.

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You said you hear new account, but you give us no response... Can we expect something?

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Originally Posted by Holy_Purple_Wolf

I've not read through all 37 pages so forgive me if this has been suggested.

How about adding a Champion kill count to the XP card. Gives an idea of how many are spawning in the quest and give the killers a chance to brag.

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This is beyond the ability of ddo programmers.

Well I was OK with it till I got to this (Eyes of Stone - Heroic Elite):

http://i.imgur.com/Mr4EOhS.jpg

5 deaths and 3 re-entries so far. It is the Champ Droaam Warpriest that is the problem for me. Absolute killer.

When the boss' helpers are considerably more powerful than the boss, then yes, we have a problem.

*edit: 7 deaths and 5 re-entries by the time I completed it, and this is what the end chest contained (no extra chests for the champs either):

http://i.imgur.com/YbUBgLb.jpg

What a burn! :mad:

Change the spawn rates on Champions.

Base it on level of players vs level of quest.
To me the old quests/raids were well designed for level appropriate content, where it falls apart is when you have level 20-28 zerg running content that was meant for much lower levels.

This change would mean that Level appropriate quest/raid runs would have very low if any champions.
As players run over level and higher difficulty increase percentage of Champion spawn rates.

Encourages at level running for regular players and still adds challenge for those going back and power running low level content.
so a party of level 28 players jumping into Elite Shroud.. a hell of a lot of champions.

This change would allow content to be appropriate for at level players and loaded with champions when over level players enter the fray.

http://www11.pic-upload.de/15.12.14/8bw6wr4yz1tn.jpg

Hold for Reinforcements - heroic elite with a fourth life fighter

Seven Champions.. why? --> that is not challenging, that's just unnecessary

This was my thrid and last run on this quest for today - nobody in my level range was willing to assist, or had the packet - it feels like waste of time

Not happy?

Vote with your wallet. Money talks and BS walks.

My plans to go VIP is on hold right now. As is any notion to buy more Turbine Points.

At the very minimum, remove the one-shot kill and reduce the spawn rate.

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Originally Posted by Edwardt

http://www11.pic-upload.de/15.12.14/8bw6wr4yz1tn.jpg

Hold for Reinforcements - heroic elite with a fourth life fighter

Seven Champions.. why? --> that is not challenging, that's just unnecessary

This was my thrid and last run on this quest for today - nobody in my level range was willing to assist, or had the packet - it feels like waste of time

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you can hide in the corner and invis/sneak yourself now. doesn't matter if Coyle lives or dies.

but yes, the spawn rate is still too high I think.

Check this out, I just TR'd my ranger into a Monkcher and was running Harverdasher and when I finished the quest I go to tell him and I see the crown above his head. I was kinda scared because I had to summon a GS hire to help me through it on elite because some of the Scorps was Champions and was just eating me alive.


http://i.imgur.com/p0AdRF1.jpg

This was taken in The Butchers Path on Heroic Elite. I had to jump several several times to get to the chest that the champion had dropped because the nasty little Kobald had jumped to the cell opening ledge then died.

http://i.imgur.com/VJ4Ax1a.jpg

Well, The jury is still out for me on the Champions... But I'm pretty ok with them...

Ran a EE Study in Sable... I did group for it, as there was one. First Encounter, well I charged in as normal, and well I got mashed (a combo of overconfidence and an off destiny)... after that, the group tightened up, and worked together more than I've seen in a long time, and I actually had to pay attention to my health. Only one further death, the Barbarian in the endfight, was CC'd and mashed. We still basically steamrolled the quest, but it wasn't as high speed of a race many quests have become in recent months. All in all not a bad change.

I see a lot of people complaining about "champions" and not being able to SteamRoll Epic Elite (or Heroic Elite) at Full Speed... I am not one of them.

I however, do think the spawn rate is a little high... if they are in nearly every fight, they aren't special. Some limits on what becomes a champion need to be put in place... a Flight Pillar in "What Goes Up" already has massive HP on Elite, and as they don't fight back, making them champions (I have heard reports of this happening) doesn't make the quest more fun... Watching the only "Champion" in Bringing the Light run away because he was on of the gamblers... is just plain silly.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Checking in to say that we're still reading along. We have certainly expected some changes to be coming. Thanks for all the great feedback!

It's possible some elements are not working exactly as intended, and of course the design can probably be improved after seeing live play.

My live play this weekend seems to indicate the number of champions is working roughly as intended, but I haven't personally checked every server on a variety of difficulty and levels, which could theoretically result in different experiences for different players . It may also have been a design mistake for orange named minibosses to have dramatically higher chance of being Champion Monsters, since that skews the overall count a great deal. Some players explicitly noted that the 10% mark seemed to be hit closer on quests with more monsters, which fits the model of statistical randomness in general, and probably the overall impact of orange name minibosses, as they're may be less minibosses as a percentage of overall monsters in those quests. (Minibosses need to be separated out from the statistics, in order to get proper data on non-Champion spawn rates for both minibosses and otherwise).



This is currently by design, but the exact list of possible Champion buffs can change in the future.


It's definitely an interesting idea, at least for some of the buffs (perhaps Deathward in particular).


As noted elsewhere, Champion buffs are generally level agnostic, or scale with the quest level, or scale with the monster's base statistics. If a level 20 Champion Buff is giving something like 20d4 damage than the level 5 version would be giving 5d4 damage. These are still up for review and changes, of course.




This is the current general mode that is in use. The miniboss list is separated for Hard and Elite, as well. There are some buffs that don't appear on Hard, or only appear on minibosses or *can't* appear on minibosses. Every buff on Hard does have a chance to show up on Elite as well, for the same type of monster: miniboss or not.



It is currently working as intended that Monster Champions do not show up in Challenges, though that could be looked at in the future.




What I'll say: Damage numbers form Terminal Delirium are not representative of damage numbers in most of DDO, whether or not the enemies are Champions.
I'm not sure where that reference is coming from - that we feel everything in Terminal Delirium or Monster Champions are 100% working as intended.


We love posts from players haven't posted before (and who we can confirm are linked to a unique account or not), though it's unfortunate if the motivation is only because they are upset. Posts from players who have never posted before are certainly something we pay attention to; if someone never felt the need to speak before now and is suddenly motivated, this is clearly one of the most important things they've felt has happened in DDO.

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I have read a lot of posts from players and I have played different quests at various lvlx with champions and I tend to agree with most posts....YOU are driving new players away from ddo as the game has no longer become fun...it is now work and we are here to have fun not work.....as to the champions themselves....they need to be toned down considerably and quest exp raised to compensate for the fact that champions spawn now.....so until you programers learn to make the game fun again and not a difficult chore....you will lose new players and quite probably some vip players as well and that will hurt you in the money pocket and you will have nobody to blame but yourselves for forgetting that this is a game intended for enjoyment and not frustration or work.........

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

so that +1(W) makes or breaks Paladins?

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Conversely, then why not leave it as it was? They stack master's blitz with 3 stacks for all the barbs and fighters and other melee classes out there now to start a blitz (way OP...), but they can't leave the Pally's with a simple +W for Holy sword? By your logic if it not game changing then why on earth not leave it as it was? There were, and still are, very good reasons why they increased Holy Sword in U23, they should revert back to that original well thought out design if they don't want to lose many Pally players (again). There are several I play with that are truly ****ed about this nerf to the point of quitting the game. Why the reaction you ask? Because they waited years for them to finally make Pallys on par with other melee classes, then as soon as the next update comes out they yank the rug out from Pallys (again). When will be the next pally update? 3 years from now (again?)

Revert back to original well thought out design and get rid of the Holy Sword nerf!

Audio feedback from my youtube channel below - if some developer eyes are getting tired from all the reading.

My suggestions from my short text post on page 2 of this thread are at 11:57. I also have lots of new thoughts leading up to that point in the video which is why I'm making another post in this thread. I also had yet to record the video when I made my first post. Some of the video is me explaining champions but most of it is me giving my thoughts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m-VXMJeF6I

Soloed some EE tonight on my battle cleric. Wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be. Of course my character is only at level 21 right now and it was eveningstar content. Loving the champions so far. Looking forward to the increased challenge when I get up to the higher epics.

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Originally Posted by Pally4Life

Conversely, then why not leave it as it was? They stack master's blitz with 3 stacks for all the barbs and fighters and other melee classes out there now to start a blitz (way OP...), but they can't leave the Pally's with a simple +W for Holy sword? By your logic if it not game changing then why on earth not leave it as it was? There were, and still are, very good reasons why they increased Holy Sword in U23, they should revert back to that original well thought out design if they don't want to lose many Pally players (again). There are several I play with that are truly ****ed about this nerf to the point of quitting the game. Why the reaction you ask? Because they waited years for them to finally make Pallys on par with other melee classes, then as soon as the next update comes out they yank the run out from Pallys (again).

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I thought LD was the default no brainer melee destiny :p

I said from the beginning that Paladins didn't need to be changed, but losing +1(W) after 1 update really shouldn't affect Paladins to the point that they are back to the bottom of the melee pile again like some are claiming. I seriously have a hard time believing Paladins got nerfed hard with that change though.

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

Checking in to say that we're still reading along. We have certainly expected some changes to be coming. Thanks for all the great feedback! Blablabla...

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Such a long post, still zero new information, just repeating what we already know, and some smoke. To those guys talking a lot without telling anything I usually advice to switch to a better fitting job, like politician or lawyer.:) Really, you gave us nothing, while we asked about a lot of things - what about checkbox, reducing the spawn rate, exclude champs from Korthos quests, etc.?! Checking in just to say nothing only proving that you are not listening, I don't know why people are bothering to give feedback on Lamma... or here.

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Originally Posted by Vulkoorex

Not happy?

Vote with your wallet. Money talks and BS walks.

My plans to go VIP is on hold right now. As is any notion to buy more Turbine Points.

At the very minimum, remove the one-shot kill and reduce the spawn rate.

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VIP has been cancelled, I'm done with this stupid game.

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Originally Posted by Pamy

Now let's talk about favor.
There is around 5k favor to achieve in the game if you do all the quest in elite even the raids.
Such a new and/or casual player can only play on normal mode.
So in normal there is only 1/3 of the total favor : so around 1660 favor.
Such player cannot reach the favor to have a 32pts carracter...
=> go to the cash shop?

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Not to argue with you, but just to point out... You don't have to do the quest at Level to get the favor...

Just Running quests on Normal can get you to 20. you can then go back and run many quests on Elite for Favor. There are Some quests such as Stealthy Repossession that I usually skip until such time as I can run it with a red alert and not worry... 3000 favor is actually very simple to achieve using this method. If you have a Lvl 15-20 character that has problems running an Elite Waterworks, even with the champion system, there is deeper problems than the champion system...