Update 56 Preview 1: Dark Apostate Archetype

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

This tree has very strange core abilities. It will not make sense unless you look at it in-game.


Tier 3:

• Soundburst vs Inflict Light Wounds, Mass

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This is a pretty large and unfair discrepancy. First off nothing in the tree gives bonuses to sonic, plenty gives bonuses to negative. Secondly, and more importantly the new archetype gets a 5th level spell as an SLA whereas the light based cleric gets a Level 2 SLA that's not fair. Please bring back Holy Smite (a level 4 spell) or give us Greater Command (a level 5 spell with no damage component). My clerics already gear for using greater command, fortitude saves are always much higher making soundburst problematic. I also can't remember a time when I made room for sonic gear on a cleric for just the one spell.

"undead Control" is a theme but there is almost none here.

As a necro cleric shouldn't I be raising the dead to fight for me?

maybe a summon like in primal avatar that is anchored in spot like 3 skelly archers in a troop that scale damage based on level and spell power?

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Originally Posted by tarrith_dourden

FOUND A BUG.

I made a toon that was a Dark Apostle, when I used a +20 heart of wood it converted me to a Radiant Servant.
Also Neg Energy Burst gets blocked when a target is selected and something gets between you like a tree. I can facing the mob at a distance and the NEB does go off, but if a tree is between you and that target...nope, no NEB. This also affects the 5th lvl Dark Apostate harm spell.

TD

Confirmed: The Life-Shaper doesn't know what a Dark Apostle is.

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As someone who's main is a cleric, I can say i never use the harm or inflict spells on live server because of that exact reason. Even tho I run with a neg Team mostly and they are a more effective heal for a neg team. The soft targeting issue with those and neg burst are too much of a problem..

I am really liking the Dark archetype cleric because the guys i run with are mostly Negs BUT I am not looking forward to using the neg spells for healing myself or party... If these spells could be made so they are the exact opposite of heal and cure for cast distance this new addition becomes a LOT more appealing! The only time heal does not work in comparison is when you have an undead targeted, unblocked and in range... Block the target and the heal still goes off on yourself, this should be the same with Negs!

Core 20: Master of Shadows: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 25% each). You also passively gain +4 Wisdom.

Not that great of a capstone, especially in epics you will likely have Incorporeality and Concealment from equipment that won't stack. Suggest instead each core gives a insightful version of a much lower amount that stacks with equipment

Also a bit concerned that this offers no support for fire and force/untyped damage

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Originally Posted by K_9

Core 20: Master of Shadows: Your Shadow Shrouding gains an additional +5% Incorporeality and Concealment (for a total of 25% each). You also passively gain +4 Wisdom.

Not that great of a capstone, especially in epics you will likely have Incorporeality and Concealment from equipment that won't stack. Suggest instead each core gives a insightful version of a much lower amount that stacks with equipment

Also a bit concerned that this offers no support for fire and force/untyped damage

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Typed bonuses stack with untyped bonuses and the DA stuff is untyped - so yes, this stuff stacks with equipment.

Howdy all, happy Wednesday, its time for a quick Bugfix Roundup!

Note that nothing here is meant to be an adjustment to this archetype's design - that part comes later - this is all just bugs getting squished.

Bugs fixed so far (and therefore do not need to be reported):

• Dark Apostates now have a spontaneous casting feat that explains their spellbook
• DD core 2 now increases saves correctly
• DD no longer does weird stuff to spellcrit
• dark apostate form and weapon imbue no longer have 30s cooldowns
• dark apostate protection from alignment now works
• shadowform no longer drops on death and relog
• can take 2nd wis in dark apostate
• core B of divine disciple is now named correctly and in the right place
• vfx for pray for mercy is no longer caster centered on non-caster centered spells
• inflict mass spells may now heal the caster

If you see a bug that's not on this list, let me know! Happy testing

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

Typed bonuses stack with untyped bonuses and the DA stuff is untyped - so yes, this stuff stacks with equipment.

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It's not currently stacking and I'm only seeing 5% concealment and incoporeality with the dark apostate capstone.

With a ghostly and lesser displacement item equipped:

https://imgur.com/a/Opymo50


With ghostly and lesser displacement item and shroud toggled on:

https://imgur.com/a/fmk3Lnd

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Originally Posted by Zuldar

It's not currently stacking and I'm only seeing 5% concealment and incoporeality with the dark apostate capstone.

With a ghostly and lesser displacement item equipped:

https://imgur.com/a/Opymo50


With ghostly and lesser displacement item and shroud toggled on:

https://imgur.com/a/fmk3Lnd

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That's funky, that shouldn't be happening. I'll take a look!

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

Typed bonuses stack with untyped bonuses and the DA stuff is untyped - so yes, this stuff stacks with equipment.

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This is not the case for incorporeality and concealment. For incorp and concealment it is just highest value unless it specifies that it stacks. The only stacking incorporeality are from Core 5 of tempest and Core 5 of eldritch knight and those specify that they are stacking.

First off, love the archetype idea - not what I was expecting, but I found all three more exciting than I would have thought and can't wait for more. Execution is spot-on.

I have no experience with DD so leaving that feedback to others.

I really want to love the undead shroud. But it just leaves me with the question 'why bother?'. PM undead works because 1) its Wizard's only healing option and 2) they get soooo much Neg Amp that quite weak HoT abilities become useful. But here there is no HoT from auras, so you're stuck with inflicts/harm. I *guess* there's niche utility with mass inflict wounds to nuke and heal yourself, but otherwise on a Cleric I'm just left asking why I wouldn't go positive for my heals instead? I'm a cleric, I'm going to gear for positive healing anyway, even if they aren't as strong as they would be on the base class. Putting Harm so high up as an SLA in a separate tree doesn't help.

There needs to be more Neg Amp I think, and the shroud needs to give a bit more utility than 1 DC and the (reaper penalised) conceal/incorp.

The rest of the tree seems nice and feels genuinely new - the curses, the melee imbue (sets apart from FvS, which is nice) are great and different from what this kind of class has had before. So still very excited, but can see people just opting out of the shroud itself as more of a hinderance than a blessing.

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Originally Posted by WiseFreelancer

I really want to love the undead shroud. But it just leaves me with the question 'why bother?'. PM undead works because 1) its Wizard's only healing option and 2) they get soooo much Neg Amp that quite weak HoT abilities become useful. But here there is no HoT from auras, so you're stuck with inflicts/harm. I *guess* there's niche utility with mass inflict wounds to nuke and heal yourself, but otherwise on a Cleric I'm just left asking why I wouldn't go positive for my heals instead? I'm a cleric, I'm going to gear for positive healing anyway, even if they aren't as strong as they would be on the base class. Putting Harm so high up as an SLA in a separate tree doesn't help.

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Maybe they should get some version of the Vampiric Touch spell, possibly as a T5 sla? Since they already get so much healing as is, a method to do damage to get temporary HP might be a nice addition.

Some comments on balance:

• You wiped out smite clerics with this change. Smites were too strong (as already pointed out in the first divine spell pass), but now it is too niche beyond L10 to be worth investing in the L24 Master of Alignment. This might be a good time to start fixing MCL capped spells. As a start, raise the MCL of the smites to 20. Then it would at least remain situationally useful against outsiders for most clerics. And/or you could broaden the list of creatures that get extra damage to e.g. undead (150%). Options in combat are good for gameplay.
• The new Dark Apostate tree has some interesting stuff, but it is all over the place. No-save curse is a minor perk for DC builds, but the damage on curse seems too situational. There is also still no way for clerics to get around negative immunity, which means that most caster builds will splash PM. The Evil damage in this tree will probably mix best with KotC/Sacred Fist (if you can be Good) or light clerics since it is actually light spell power. This is a bit conceptually confusing. The pro is that evil damage is not resisted (see above).
• The T5 that removes MCL on inflicts seems rather niche since most of the good ones had very high MCLs to begin with.
• Fire clerics got a bit weaker due to loss of DD T5.
• The new trees do not address the biggest problems of DD clerics: No way to remove negative immunity, lackluster light AoEs (Sunbolt could get D6+4 at least), high spell point costs on inflicts, and generally inferior to FvS (actually, you did a good job nerfing that :-D).

Tried making an ek/DA build for two toggles and have support with undead, took 6 levels wiz and all went well, took 4 levels dark apostate and all went well, when i went back to take the rest of my wizard levels, at the choose spells screen there were no spells or tabs just a blank window where all the spells would be but it let me click next like i had made my choices, then on character sheet i have learned zero spells beyond what i had from the 6 wizard before dipping in apostate.

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Originally Posted by Arcanesnipr

Tried making an ek/DA build for two toggles and have support with undead, took 6 levels wiz and all went well, took 4 levels dark apostate and all went well, when i went back to take the rest of my wizard levels, at the choose spells screen there were no spells or tabs just a blank window where all the spells would be but it let me click next like i had made my choices, then on character sheet i have learned zero spells beyond what i had from the 6 wizard before dipping in apostate.

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Yup I mentioned this one above. It seems once you take a single Dark Apostate level, taking levels in other classes and even epic or legendary levels gets a bit broken. You will also notice when you take your next wizard levels, it doesn't say you level up as wizard. The UI says you're still leveling up as "7th Dark Apostate" instead of "7th Wizard". Once you get out of the Level up UI though, the game still says you took 7th wizard. Just, you dont get to pick your spells because the game thinks you're leveling up as DA, and that you have all your spells already. Or it thinks that because you're leveling up as DA, those pesky wizard spells aren't valid options because you're not leveling as a Wizard, you're leveling as a DA! Or some other reason I can't even think of.

This bug happened to me making a DA Alchemist too. I'm guessing it'll be all caster multiclasses with DA.

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

New Tree: Dark Apostate
Replaces Radiant Servant

Note that this tree releases alongside the revamped Divine Disciple tree, see below!

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Can I get a clarification on this? Replaces, as in, if you choose Dark Apostate you cannot also choose Radiant Servant, or as in no more Radiant Servant in the Cleric class? If the latter, well, I want this comment to stay up, so I will refrain from vulgarity, but someone's head is not up on their shoulders, like normal, but in some dark, tight place, with no ventilation. Removing RS tree from the class would cause all my clerics to be deleted. More than just disappointed. Why not make it an either/or and leave my creative character builds NOT limited by attempts to make character builds more creative, and tease with some not really evil cleric necromancer but sure looks evil BS.

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Originally Posted by Lyune

Can I get a clarification on this? Replaces, as in, if you choose Dark Apostate you cannot also choose Radiant Servant, or as in no more Radiant Servant in the Cleric class? If the latter, well, I want this comment to stay up, so I will refrain from vulgarity, but someone's head is not up on their shoulders, like normal, but in some dark, tight place, with no ventilation. Removing RS tree from the class would cause all my clerics to be deleted. More than just disappointed. Why not make it an either/or and leave my creative character builds NOT limited by attempts to make character builds more creative, and tease with some not really evil cleric necromancer but sure looks evil BS.

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If you choose Dark Apostate you cannot take Radiant Servant.

Think of these new Archtypes as essentially new classes.

Think of every current class in the game as having the Archtype: "Original" or "Vanilla", and all the rules and trees and spells associated with that class in your head, put them all in the "Original / Vanilla" class Archtype box.

The new Archtypes essentially function as an entirely new class, except they happen to overlap significantly with a currently existing class, and you can't multiclass an Archtype with another Archtype of the same class. So MOST your accumulated knowledge about the "Original / Vanilla" class will aid you in building a character who uses a different archtype. But just not -all- of your knowledge will line up.

Dark Apostate Cleric's trees are: Dark Apostate, Divine Disciple, War Priest. Dark Apostate Clerics spontaneously cast Inflict spells.

Original / Vanilla Cleric's trees are: Radiant Servant, Divine Disciple, War Priest. Original / Vanilla Clerics spontaneously cast Cure spells.

All functions of Cleric not mentioned above, are the same in both classes.

Does that make sense?

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Originally Posted by Lyune

Can I get a clarification on this? Replaces, as in, if you choose Dark Apostate you cannot also choose Radiant Servant, or as in no more Radiant Servant in the Cleric class? If the latter, well, I want this comment to stay up, so I will refrain from vulgarity, but someone's head is not up on their shoulders, like normal, but in some dark, tight place, with no ventilation. Removing RS tree from the class would cause all my clerics to be deleted. More than just disappointed. Why not make it an either/or and leave my creative character builds NOT limited by attempts to make character builds more creative, and tease with some not really evil cleric necromancer but sure looks evil BS.

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Make sure to read the Archetype Overview page before getting too in the weeds here, I wouldn't want you to miss the evil forest for the healing trees, so to speak :)

I'm not gonna have a chance to get on to Llama but, as someone who loves dark clerics as a concept, please put this directly in my veins.

As someone who's main is a Divine Disciple Fire Caster Cleric, I'm very worried about this "Updated" Tree.....

Especially after what happened to my Shiradi Caster build... :(

This "Progression" with the cores is wonky. Why would anyone want to mix light and dark in this path? this is needless complication. And causing lockouts of traditional Light path.
Once I figured out how to progress my Build in Light path, I got all 40 points spent and went to take the Core6 in Light.

I could not take it because one of the requirements is "Light Spellbook III: Sunburst" and that is in Core 5, where I was forced to take Light Defense(Cleric level 3) in order to progress.

i ran through many scenarios, I could not complete the tree where I was able to take Core 6 Light path.



I am a Fire Domain Level 32 Cleric.

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Originally Posted by Khurse

Ok for the DD stuff

All Tested on 32 Sun Elf Cleric

The core abilities seem messed up for me? (Find it odd that no one mentioned this...so maybe it's only for some toons? )
The First light core and last Dark core are both in the first spot on the left, the last spot on the right (normally the 20 core) has the First Dark Core and last Light core.
The normal level 3 core (2nd from left)has the levle 18 core (Power Word Stun) and the level 3 Dark Core (Light Defense, +2 Save +3 MRR)
Level 6 core(3rd from left) has the Level 12 Dark core (Necrotic Ray) and the Level 6 Light (Sun Bolt)
Level 12 core (4th from left)has the Level 6 Dark (Enervation) and level 12 light (Sun Beam)
Level 18 core (5th from left) has both the Level 3 and the Level 18 Light cores.

Also I'm still showing Negative Energy Burst /Necrotic Bolt etc as available options that work if you put the points into them.

RE: The Dark Apostate.

Still a cool idea, I'm not sure about the melee damage line of enhancements on what seems to be a caster tree, but- even if you decide to change this. PLEASE leave teh graphic for "Apostate's Curse" in for your weapon.
Even if I never plan on hitting anything, having the weapon glow red and black is just cool.

-Turning on any of "Apostate's curse"/ Dark Consumption/Cursed Words/ and the Shadow Shrouding all put each other on 30 second cool downs.
Not sure if WAI

The Tier 4 Wisdom Enhancement can't be taken in the DA tree

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I dont think rabidfox is correct. I thinkmost of the early comments are based on the description in the thread, not actual Lamania testing. What we are seein on Lamania is absolutely not right. as you said, there is no way to get to core 6. and what we are seeing in testing is absolutely NOT what the description of the cores inthis thread say they should be.

I'm also seeing most of the old option in the tree, so it is far from complete.