The chasm between players and builds.

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Originally Posted by Eantarus

My alts(once leveled to cap) aren't advancing any further. They farm rares in salt marsh & feywild(and now IoD) or run over-level content to farm heroic gear for TRs on my main(since even the jenkist alt at lvl 30 can run a lvl 15 quest on elite). The time expenditure is purely about the material rewards.

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And this is fine if thats what you enjoy, but then coming to the forums and complaining that your main cannot do something or your alts can't do something as you have no intention of progressing them because of x,y or z, well that just asking for the easy button.

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Originally Posted by Azoyhn

Hi, the pure paladin with the 919 PRR and 544 MRR. I cannot provide a solid breakdown, only a screenshot with an 8 second video using a bunch of buffs to provide a situational bonus to skyrocket the PRR/MRR value.

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Thank you. At the end of the day PRR and MRR is math. If you can list the buffs I am happy to verify the math.

The OP said this was before buffs so the goal posts have already moved.

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Originally Posted by Weemadarthur

Now if you want to start a thread about stun DC's and how tactics don't work on all but a select few builds that I agree with and would support. I have been saying as much since U49 was on Lam. Trying to use it as a strawman argument to push something completely unrelated won't actually help that.

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*looks at her bear tank with mediocre strength that can still stun and trip stuff in R10 legendary quests*

Say what?

Getting your tactics DC's up is fairly effortless these days. The issue is that the meta for doing so (using a trance) is degenerate and boring and will hopefully be removed as soon as they come up with something more interesting. But it's not COMPLICATED.

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Originally Posted by slarden

Thank you. At the end of the day PRR and MRR is math. If you can list the buffs I am happy to verify the math.

The OP said this was before buffs so the goal posts have already moved.

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He said the image of his character sheet was a photo captured when he was 90% or so buffed.

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Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde

*looks at her bear tank with mediocre strength that can still stun and trip stuff in R10 legendary quests*

Say what?

Getting your tactics DC's up is fairly effortless these days. The issue is that the meta for doing so (using a trance) is degenerate and boring and will hopefully be removed as soon as they come up with something more interesting. But it's not COMPLICATED.

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What exactly is the stun DC required for r10?

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Originally Posted by krimsonrane

What exactly is the stun DC required for r10?

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People were saying 100-105 for R1, 125 for R10. But this number maybe quest dependent since some newer contents are harder.

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Originally Posted by Azoyhn

This is inaccurate. I was almost fully buffed at the time. I didn't have PRR only filigree sets on, and I was missing bard buffs + heroic companion from either halfling or harper agent tree for roughly +40 prr.

Hello sir. It is me, the guy with 919 prr. I can't actually provide a break down because there's a lot of situational scenarios that occurred. I was also missing a lot more situational buffs. I'm looking at 959 total prr at the moment with buffs that i'm missing. I can hover 700 very reliably, however. Most likely i'm hovering around 660 at the moment with everything going, with 600 being stable while blocking, with just angelskin. It wasn't easy, and there's a video on me attempting a lot of the buffs, but at the same time I was missing a lot of the buffs..... As for the natural breakdown of that, once again, can't really provide the breakdown because even I don't understand that full breakdown for 700 freaking PRR.

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This thread is dealing with two separate but interconnected issues; fun within a game and the perceived character power required to attain that fun. The linked 100 hours video doesn't apply to anyone in this thread because you're already playing the game and have decided, well before 100 hours, that something in this game provides you with entertainment. A mantra I have said many times is that happiness is based on expectations. Far too often we hear quotes of so and so hit X numbers and did this. Or such and such build can do X. Mostly these numbers are exaggerated or only apply to extremely small sample points that are simply unsustainable. This is acknowledged in the quoted portion above. The OP said if someone loaded with past lives can hit 900 PRR that's a chasm unbridgeable. Then the person with the 919 PRR responds. They essentially say they don't have 919 most (almost all) of the time they have 660. So we've just seen how a stat metric was used as a base standard but exaggerated by nearly 33%. The funny part for me was the tank player saying they don't even fully understand how their PRR gets that high! Guess everything isn't about that meta-game knowledge which is so often touted as a demarcation point for players. Thank you to Azoyhn for pulling back the curtain on this and sharing the numbers within the numbers.

We can all pour over numbers and yes, adding numbers has been fun since the MMO genre was introduced. That is one aspect of fun. One could argue a new player/alt gets far more from this thrill than a 10-year veteran since they are constantly adding numbers through gameplay while the vet has topped out everything but the deepest grinds. But beyond numbers, does a game offer exciting moments? Yesterday, I was playing R6 Bullwugs on what many in this thread would call an underlived alt (Horizon Walker Monk/Archer 17 reaper points, maybe 6 PLs total). Two other people had first-life characters (tank, cleric). The rest of the party was a strong paladin and two solid archers. Going down one of the fire-trap hallways we were rushed by a Vengeance Reaper and a pack of Bullywugs. So we are all jumping, flying through constant fire traps, avoiding circles, DPSing bullywugs, while trying to stay alive. It was insane, thrilling, and an absolute blast. Only one party member died and we were all amazed at how well we escaped from what seemed like sure death. Most anyone getting a rush like this from a game is going to decide it is fun and come back for more.

Later, after half the group had to log for the night, the party was me, one of the archers, and the first-life tank. We lowered the difficulty to R2 and did Whispers of Return having no problems whatsoever as the tank was able to block halls or doors and we could DPS in relative safety. The first-life tank felt great about themselves and they should - their character, having no past-lives, can do its job in R2 on the newest content in the game. (note: they could not tank in R6) They did not need 919 or even 660 PRR to have fun in the game. And, more importantly, the game does not require them to have these numbers.

As players, if we set our expectations to "we must be able to zerg R10" then most of us will be disappointed. We will look at the mountain of accumulation required to do that and, focused on the grind rather than the fun we can have, we will get discouraged. No one required us to do that. These are our own self-imposed mental fixations that are preventing us from enjoying the game. Are there R10 groups out there? Yes. But there are also plenty of R4 and R6 groups on the LFM board where people can excel and have fun regardless of the character they are playing. I believe in a catch-up mechanic because it is fair but I also believe it is disingenuous to equate how fun a game is versus the ability to zerg that game on the highest setting it has to offer. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had in DDO on many different levels. Find a lane you're comfortable with and go write your story.

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Originally Posted by hale99

I truely believe that the argument that reaper is a waste of time is (in my opinion) made by those that don't want to put in the effort because they don't have the effort nor energy. Therefore there shouldn't be that argument to begin with. It you have issues with R1 (sorry if this sounds harsh) still after all of these years and all of the gear and stuff that has some out then there's some serious issues going on with your build or breakdown. We all started at 0 reaper points and had to work our way up. Reaper is by far so worth the rewards. You get HP and a lot of other bonuses in the trees that help you out so much. So even if you decide to just run R1 all the time (which is fine) you will be so much stronger than on Elite. Hearing that reaper is a waste of time is for me the same argument that makes me scratch my head everytime I see a legendary raid up on LE why not just do R1. You're so much stronger xD

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I think that's entriely the point though : reaper was conceptually for the challange yet its (imo bumpy at the very least) implementation makes you "so much stronger"! :rolleyes:

As for raids on LE I'm guessing its simply to avoid the healing penalty.

Reaper was a bait-and-switch to get another long time-consuming grind in the game.

The ostensible reason for Reaper was to provide challenge "fun" for players who found the existing difficulty levels too easy. They found these levels to be too easy because of a Monty Haul loot system that kept raising the power creep and a circle-jerk TR system that gave significant power creep over time.

However the Reaper trees invalidated the increased challenge that Reaper provided and of course the Monty Haul system continued to roll merrily along.

We're not far from the point, some would argue that we're there already, at which the vets will once again find themselves unchallenged by Reaper and demand something more "challenging" i.e. give us another long grind with attendant power creep plz...

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Originally Posted by KoobTheProud

[...]
We're not far from the point, some would argue that we're there already, at which the vets will once again find themselves unchallenged by Reaper and demand something more "challenging" i.e. give us another long grind with attendant power creep plz...

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yeah, at least on the server environment that my characters are on, I find there are several groups lead by several people that have more than 159 reaper points doing R8+ or R10 every day.

At which point what SSG invented for reaper would have been too easy... so we're back to square 1?

i.e. doing legendary levels loot grind, dino crafting, and possible legendary re-incarnation?!? (oh, please no!)
or facing the removal of reaper trees after the legendary levels grind...

Say, at level 40, doing level 42 (mystical godly dungeons)... reaper trees does not count... :rolleyes:
Or are there levels beyond 40 called Demigod levels?

(edit...)
Imagine as a demigod, if you will, having the built-in plot-hook of a warlock with the class features and racial bonuses you select. Now, imagine that your character's background is more than just minor mechanical benefit with a mix of skills and equipment and the like. Sure, you can still be a Guild Merchant, or a Soldier, or an Urchin: those are where your character have been, but not the essence of who your character is. (There are shop-girls, and girls who just happen to work in shops)
Open custom shop and assist other players as demigods... I guess no more re-incarnations or reaper trees here.

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Originally Posted by PsychoBlonde

*looks at her bear tank with mediocre strength that can still stun and trip stuff in R10 legendary quests*

Say what?

Getting your tactics DC's up is fairly effortless these days. The issue is that the meta for doing so (using a trance) is degenerate and boring and will hopefully be removed as soon as they come up with something more interesting. But it's not COMPLICATED.

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What is "mediocre strength" in your opinion?
What means "can still stun and trip stuff"? Everyone has a chance ~4% chance to stick a stun or trip...
What do you mean by "Getting your tactics DC's up is fairly effortless"? What is this DC that is effortless to get in your opinion?
Without numbers, the information content of your statement is close to zero.

All I know is that ~110 DC (Fortitude) with Battle Trance for Stunning blow is too low in most real legendary quests (31+) and also 121 DC (Will) fails too often and even when I use Battle Trance and get it to 144 DC (Will) it doesn't always work 95%.
The numbers can be a bit higher when I have bard buffs or when I use potions I don't always use and to my knowledge, I miss only a few things like +3 quality tactics DC.

But yes I agree that the use of a Battle Trance seems to be mandatory even if you have everything else is not really good.
And IDK what you consider as complicated all I know is that I currently cannot get the +3 quality tactic DC when I want to keep my 10% hp bonus from the fey winter set...

It is hard to tell but it looks like the developers seem to expect the players to have absolutely everything to achieve a 95% success rate on the tactical DCs. And I question that attitude!
And I have the slight impression the developers forget that you have a 10% absolute minimum fail chance on all tactical DC checks who require that you hit the monster first even if you would manage a 200 DC or 200 to hit score.
10% fail chance sounds not high when you don't actually play DDO often but it IS high, even 5% is something that happens often enough and even several times in a row.
And the developers seem to think it is also always mandatory that you are able to hit a monster (getting it in your hitbox) but also this is STILL an additional factor.
As a melee especially when you try to hit a moving monster it is often not that easy to get a monster in the right moment in your hitbox which hurts especially when your tactical feat has a 15 seconds cooldown.
And, in addition, I'm quite sure that I sometimes have the monster clearly in my hitbox and I don't hit it anyhow because something is wrong with DDO.

But yea the developers seem to think everything is perfect with the tactical feats in DDO and it does not even need to discuss with the players about that matter :rolleyes:
And this is even more when some players like you confirm that questionalble opinion...

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Originally Posted by Chacka_DDO

And, in addition, I'm quite sure that I sometimes have the monster clearly in my hitbox and I don't hit it anyhow because something is wrong with DDO.

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If I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong) you are playing from the EU. I have the same issue but I don't think it's anything to do with a fault in DDO rather than the latency caused by us being so far from the servers. I generally find there is a fraction of a second of delay in everything I do (which may not sound a lot but is actually quite a large discrepancy). This has lead to me having to hit where mobs will be rather than where they actually are to guarantee a hit.

If you want to see exactly how out of sync what you are watching is play on 2 pc's next to each other. If both characters stand next to each other and then start running forwards at the same time you will notice that on both PC's your character will be at least 2 steps behind on screen.

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Originally Posted by KoobTheProud

Reaper was a bait-and-switch to get another long time-consuming grind in the game.

The ostensible reason for Reaper was to provide challenge "fun" for players who found the existing difficulty levels too easy. They found these levels to be too easy because of a Monty Haul loot system that kept raising the power creep and a circle-jerk TR system that gave significant power creep over time.

However the Reaper trees invalidated the increased challenge that Reaper provided and of course the Monty Haul system continued to roll merrily along.

We're not far from the point, some would argue that we're there already, at which the vets will once again find themselves unchallenged by Reaper and demand something more "challenging" i.e. give us another long grind with attendant power creep plz...

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I think it was more on par than bait and switch as adding new grinds is the games bread and buttef

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Originally Posted by Weemadarthur

If I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong) you are playing from the EU. I have the same issue but I don't think it's anything to do with a fault in DDO rather than the latency caused by us being so far from the servers. I generally find there is a fraction of a second of delay in everything I do (which may not sound a lot but is actually quite a large discrepancy). This has lead to me having to hit where mobs will be rather than where they actually are to guarantee a hit.

If you want to see exactly how out of sync what you are watching is play on 2 pc's next to each other. If both characters stand next to each other and then start running forwards at the same time you will notice that on both PC's your character will be at least 2 steps behind on screen.

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Yes, I play from the EU and have a latency of ~110 ms but I would say it is anyhow something that is wrong with DDO because even 200ms is not something that could not be tolerated by DDO when it comes to things like a hitbox check.
And I even give it sometimes a certain extra time before I actually hit my button it happens sometimes that I don't hit a monster even when he is clearly within the hitbox.
But in any case, this IS an additional factor that increases the fail chance noticeable even when I do everything right!

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Originally Posted by Marshal_Lannes

... As players, if we set our expectations to "we must be able to zerg R10" then most of us will be disappointed. We will look at the mountain of accumulation required to do that and, focused on the grind rather than the fun we can have, we will get discouraged. No one required us to do that. These are our own self-imposed mental fixations that are preventing us from enjoying the game. Are there R10 groups out there? Yes. But there are also plenty of R4 and R6 groups on the LFM board where people can excel and have fun regardless of the character they are playing. I believe in a catch-up mechanic because it is fair but I also believe it is disingenuous to equate how fun a game is versus the ability to zerg that game on the highest setting it has to offer. There is a lot of enjoyment to be had in DDO on many different levels. Find a lane you're comfortable with and go write your story.

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This! Amén.
Enjoy the game!

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Originally Posted by krimsonrane

He said the image of his character sheet was a photo captured when he was 90% or so buffed.

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I was referring to this comment

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Originally Posted by krimsonrane

I saw one pali with 9.4k HP. 910 PRR, 560 MRR and 400+ AC. If I didn't see it with my own eyes I'd swear it was impossible. He wasn't even buffed.

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Originally Posted by noinfo

And this is fine if thats what you enjoy, but then coming to the forums and complaining that your main cannot do something or your alts can't do something as you have no intention of progressing them because of x,y or z, well that just asking for the easy button.

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My main is the only one I bother to progress. As has been stated many times its pointless to progress the alts because the grind wall is just too high.

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Originally Posted by Weemadarthur

If I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong) you are playing from the EU. I have the same issue but I don't think it's anything to do with a fault in DDO rather than the latency caused by us being so far from the servers. I generally find there is a fraction of a second of delay in everything I do (which may not sound a lot but is actually quite a large discrepancy). This has lead to me having to hit where mobs will be rather than where they actually are to guarantee a hit.

If you want to see exactly how out of sync what you are watching is play on 2 pc's next to each other. If both characters stand next to each other and then start running forwards at the same time you will notice that on both PC's your character will be at least 2 steps behind on screen.

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Happens from the US also, if that is your point.

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Originally Posted by boredGamer

Happens from the US also, if that is your point.

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I thought I used to live 10 miles from the server. But I think its now 300 miles. I still occasionally get lag...

But at least I don't have the here 'press a button'. wait 1 second... 'see the reaction of that button'.

At least some party member from the world that have internet problems can cause lag in the rest of the raid party.

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Originally Posted by Tyrande

I thought I used to live 10 miles from the server. But I think its now 300 miles. I still occasionally get lag...

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Physical distance from the server doesn't actually mean anything. You can be sitting in the Arbies across the street from SSG's colocation, but if you are connecting via an internet backbone 1,000 miles away, it doesn't make a difference.