The Official Rogue Enhancements Discussion Thread!

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Originally Posted by HastyPudding

Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.

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As it is on live, there is no difference between the disabling skills of an Assassin and a mechanic. They both have the same disabling skills (unless you count junk like the Cabal trap).

Even if you put the faster search into a higher tier, Assassins/acrobats will take it anyway because Wand and Scroll Mastery is at tier3.

It's also not quite like making Assassinate or Knockdown immunity easily-accessible: faster searching is a completely new ability. And do you really want your PrE's core ability being "better trapmonkey?"

So if you don't use Crossbow but are a mechanic you're shafted...

Come on seriously : The Mechanic Tree needs to be heavilly reworked.
All the crossbow only stuff needs to be 'Ranged Weapon' ( pick one ).
and then it needs to get rid of some stuff... I miss my Smiting, I miss... a lot of things... so many things that I ended up spending on the Assassin Tree up to Tier 5 instead when I worked on my Mechanic...

I won't even go into the Thief-Acrobat Tree as I only have two weapon fighting rogues...

By the way, where is hidden the Toughness Enhancement ? I couldn't find any in any of the rogue trees.

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Originally Posted by Flavilandile

By the way, where is hidden the Toughness Enhancement ? I couldn't find any in any of the rogue trees.

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Racial Toughness was scrapped. Instead, they added +20 HP to Heroic Durability (Previously: +20. Now: +25, plus +5 at 5th, 10th and 15th level)

So, all in all, it will stay the same and yuo saved 3 AP.

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Originally Posted by Intrepid

Now that the Dexterity modifier can be used for to-hit and damage modifiers, and coupled with the new set of Trip enhancements, can we expect to see a change in tactical feats to allow the Dexterity modifier to be used in place of Strength? I believe that change would work well for acrobats who use Trip and Stunning Blow as part of their normal combat rotation.

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Sticking a Dex modifier for tactical attacks like Trip and Stunning Blow should probably appear into one of two spots in the Acrobat tree. It could appear in the Core ability Stick Fighting, which is also where Acrobats can use Dex for damage. The other place that it could go is Trip Focus. Trip focus has 3 ranks, so why not put the Trip with Dex in the second rank and Stun with Dex in the third rank? It won't be an automatic give me to Acrobats, they would have to invest to get this ability.

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For the most part, I'm enjoying the Acrobat tree. However, there are three things that I really don't like about it.

First, I made a suggest before when Vault was first seen a few months ago. Vault for a Tier 5 ability that costs 3 AP (since you need a rank of No Mercy) should be something more than just Abundant Step. It should be closer to the Draconic Incarnation's Flyby Attack. Vault should probably do a small amount of damage along with a chance of knocking down mobs. If nothing else, at least a chance to knockdown mobs.

Second, the Acrobat Capstone is Followthrough. I'll quote it here: "Followthrough (2 AP): Passive +2 Str/Dex. After tumbling, for 6 seconds your staff attacks hit two targets per swing instead of one. On vorpal, your target is knocked down." Ok, is the Vorpal Knockdown for all basic attacks or only 6 seconds after a Tumble? If it's all basic attacks, it's a great capstone. If it's just 6 seconds after tumbling, then it's a great disappointment and a bad capstone.

Third, Mechanic and Acrobat capstones should contain a +1 Sneak Attack die. It's just a small increase in damage for these prestige classes that dumped heavily into their chosen prestige. As someone else pointed out, both prestige classes no longer have access to the old Rogue capstone that everyone grabbed before. This isn't as powerful as the previous capstone, plus it's nowhere as powerful as the Assassins capstone.

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Originally Posted by oradafu

Third, Mechanic and Acrobat capstones should contain a +1 Sneak Attack die. It's just a small increase in damage for these prestige classes that dumped heavily into their chosen prestige. As someone else pointed out, both prestige classes no longer have access to the old Rogue capstone that everyone grabbed before. This isn't as powerful as the previous capstone, plus it's nowhere as powerful as the Assassins capstone.

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There seems to be a need for a general "Class" tree in addition to "Racial" and "PrE" trees ... I assume there's a similar need for classes other than Rogue.

I don't mean "put all the good stuff" in one tree, but from what I can tell Mechanics and Acrobats get further behind in game of DPS bingo with this change compared to Live. A general "Class" tree for SA die enhancements would solve that problem.

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Originally Posted by HastyPudding

The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.

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This isn't, and shouldn't be, the Mechanic's flagship ability--it is a quality of life enhancement. Truthfully, I think it needs to be applied to the whole game for free--spending a long time disabling traps and searching (and opening doors, pulling a lever, etc...) is just annoying. I don't think they need to be instantaneous, but much faster would be good.

With DEX providing damage in the acrobat tree, does this mean when you deal damage with a quarterstaff that you are adding 1½ times your Dexterity bonus? Two handed weapons apply this bonus from Strength usually.

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Originally Posted by HastyPudding

The mechanic's 'faster disabling' skill needs to be a higher tier. It's too easy for every rogue to put 3 points in mechanic and then not put anything else in it. That's like putting assassinate as a tier 1 assassin ability or a thief acrobat's knockdown immunity at tier 1. Mechanics get a bad rep as it is without idiotic things like this. Mechanics are supposed to be the expert trappers, not assassins and acrobats.

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Just because you can do something faster doesn't make you an expert. Besides, what ability would you like to move down to replace Faster Disable? Skill Boost? Wand Heighten so that Wand Mastery and UMD get moved down a tier?

Let's be serious for a moment. Faster Disable is a convenience ability. The faster players can disable traps, then the faster a quest can be completed.

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Originally Posted by Flavilandile

I won't even go into the Thief-Acrobat Tree as I only have two weapon fighting rogues...

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I'm not sure it's working properly right now, but Sly Flourish should be something all non-ranged Rogues should invest in. Just so you know what I'm talking about: "Melee Attack. +0.5/1/1.5 [W] damage with a +1/2/3 crit threat range, and reduces your threat by 100/200/300. On sneak: Intelligent target also gains -1 to balance, Reflex and Will for 20 seconds (stacks 5 times). Cooldown: 12 secs."

Also as others pointed out, there's Haste Boost and Subtlety in the second tier of Acrobat. All three should be something that TWF rogues seeking to fit into their build.

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Originally Posted by GoldyGopher

As a player with several multi-class characters, to say I am disappointed is an understatement.

It goes beyond disappointment, as it appears that Turbine went out of their way to ummm make multi-classing unworkable. And I am not just talking my two level splash builds, but my two builds with six levels of rouge, there is nothing for me to spend AP points on at the low levels.

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Hyperbole. There are fantastic abilities for Acrobat at low level:

Tier 1: Acrobatic provides 15% alacrity with quarterstaves.
Tier 1: Staff Training provides +1 hit, dmg with quarterstaves.
Tier 2: Quick Strike provides 3[W] and 25% doublestrike for 10 seconds. (15 sec cool down.)

That's only 11 AP total spent, available before level 4. There's plenty of goodness to buy after that. Even if you don't plan on being a quarterstaff user in later levels, it's fantastic at low levels.

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Originally Posted by SableShadow

There seems to be a need for a general "Class" tree in addition to "Racial" and "PrE" trees ... I assume there's a similar need for classes other than Rogue.

I don't mean "put all the good stuff" in one tree, but from what I can tell Mechanics and Acrobats get further behind in game of DPS bingo with this change compared to Live. A general "Class" tree for SA die enhancements would solve that problem.

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This is mostly a problem for multiclass rogues. Pure rogues can easily dip on the assassin tree for 2d6 sneak. Add to that your extra damage for xbows that you didnt had before, and you are 2~4 damage under your old +12 sneak.

But as Aashrym said, not all splashes are killed because most splashes you do today are not for enhancements, but for class features.

The lost capstone 4d6 sneak is much more problematic than the sneak damage lines. I loved the suggestion to add 1d6 to the other rogue capstones.

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Originally Posted by nibel

Racial Toughness was scrapped. Instead, they added +20 HP to Heroic Durability (Previously: +20. Now: +25, plus +5 at 5th, 10th and 15th level)

So, all in all, it will stay the same and yuo saved 3 AP.

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I know Racial Toughness was scrapped... I'm the one that make Vargouille give us the explanation.
I was talking about Class Enhancements... Namely Rogue as we are in the Rogue thread.

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Originally Posted by Carpone

With DEX providing damage in the acrobat tree, does this mean when you deal damage with a quarterstaff that you are adding 1½ times your Dexterity bonus? Two handed weapons apply this bonus from Strength usually.

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There are a few DEX-to-DMG staves and they, unfortunately, don't give the 1.5x bonus.

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Originally Posted by Flavilandile

I know Racial Toughness was scrapped... I'm the one that make Vargouille give us the explanation.
I was talking about Class Enhancements... Namely Rogue as we are in the Rogue thread.

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As far as I know, rogues never had class toughness enhancements. Why would you expect it to be there?

With Sireth and "take rogue level, get 15% speed bonus to staves", I'm predicting a lot of Rogue-splashed barbs with sticks.

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Originally Posted by Flavilandile

I know Racial Toughness was scrapped... I'm the one that make Vargouille give us the explanation.
I was talking about Class Enhancements... Namely Rogue as we are in the Rogue thread.

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Rogues have never had a class bonus to HP.

ok, so here are my first impressions on the Assassin tree.


Core abilities

Knife in the Darkness
You gain proficiency with kukris. You can also use your Dex mod to hit with Daggers and Kukris.

This ability right now gives every rogue Kukri proficiency right out of the gate. I don't know if I like that. For multiclassers I understand it's a choice (you are limited to 3 trees) but this is the equivalent of a feat, for free, for all rogues, at level 1, with no investment needed.

Dagger in the Back
Dex mod instead of STR for damage with Kukris and Daggers. Also, dex mod instead of STR for damage for any light weapon if you have the Weapon Finess Feat.

I like what you did here. I was concerned that we would only have dagger/kukri wielding assassins running around. Instead of limiting the Dex to damage to just Kukris and Daggers, you expanded it with a cost allowing for more choices and diversity. Thank you for that.

Assassins Trick
Awesome, awesome, awesome. This ability will be a life saver in certain situations. A Rogue's death are undead and constructs. This ability helps alleviate that. However, it has some problems. It uses the bluff animation, which is fine, but the debuff only starts AFTER the animation is finished. This is a good 3-4 seconds unlike bluff which applies the debuff immediately and most of the animation you can skip. Waiting for an animation is cumbersome and annoying, please make it the same way bluff is.

Nimbleness
I can understand why you put Assassinate as a Tier 5 ability and this as the level 12 core ability instead. Not everyone who splashes into the assassin tree is going to want to assassinate. But this ability seems... out of place. It feels more like an acrobat ability. I'm not sure what you would put here instead but this ability seems lost and confused. Although it is a nice boost to defense in the middle of a fight.


Tree Abilities

Poison Strikes (Cooldown 6 seconds, duration 20 seconds, stacks up to 5 times)
Heartseeker Poison: On Damage: -1 fortitude save; on Crit: 1d6 Con damage; on Vorpal: -5% HP (lasts for 10 seconds)
Ice Chill Poison: On Damage: - 1 Reflex save; on Crit: 1d6 Dex damage; on Vorpal: Paralysis (Fort DC 10 + 1/2 Rogue level + Int mod negates, 25% chance for an additional save when the affected creature is damaged)
Soulshatter Poison: On Damage -1 Will save; On Crit: 1d6 Wisdom damage; on Vorpal: Shattermantle (-100 spell resistance for 10 seconds (Will DC 10 + 1/2 Rogue level + Int mod negates)

A nice change. Making them dedicated strikes gives them power and adds to their appeal and versatility. However, they are lacking.

Heartseeker Poison – the 5% HP reduction is only a debuff and the mob gets their HP back after 10 seconds. I would suggest just making this pure damage. 5% is really not all that much.
Ice Chill Poison: 1d6 dex on crit kills this one. Dex damage is only really effective against oozes. I would suggest changing it to -10% attack and movement speed or something similar. It gives added flavor and versatility.
Soulshatter Poison: 1d6 wis on crit is hard to say whether it's useful or not since the High Priestess dagger is the only weapon with this effect. I will have to reserve judgement as far as its effectiveness until I test it further. I will say that I would prefer something like On crit -2 spell resistance or something similar.

Because of these reasons, I only see people ever taking Heartseeker at the moment. The on damage save debuffs are good (especially because they cans tack, -1 to a will save doesn't seem like much but making them stack adds value) and Vorpal abilities are good the way they are (really just cherries on top, to unrealiable to depend on them) but the crit abilities need work.

I would also make the poisons share a cooldown. Spamming poison attacks because you can and getting lucky on a vorpal seems like lazy play to me, not tactical. Also, poison stacks are are proccing on off-hand attacks, is this WAI?

Shiv
-2 save on poison is ok... if the poison attacks were to proc more reliably. Right now, they're only applied on a Vorpal. Sky Flouish in the acrobat tree adds more. To make this worth it, change poisons to be more useful or change the -2 Fort against poisons to something else, maybe add a crit effect (+1 crit multiplier?).

Bleed them out
Just as useful as the Tempest ability. I'm not sure why this now generic ability has found a way to ugly 2 trees but they really need to go. Not only does the bleed effect adds no meaningful damage, it doesn't even tell you how little damage it does in the description/tooltip.

Venomed Blades
Good flavor, good cost/damage ratio. I also like that I can be in both precision and poison stance at the same time. I think this ability is 100% spot on.

Shadow Dagger
At first this ability looked like fodder to me, but when I stopped to think about it, it can actually be very helpful. I see this more as a low-mid level set-up ability that will help a Rogue get sneak attacks, especially after some good tactics (like a Bluff pull) and even help get an assassinate. The reduced cooldown and increased DC of later ranks make it a good ability to take for leveling.

Execute
I'm still torn on this. Not only is this a copy/paste of Hunter's Mercy from deepwood stalker, it has 2x the cooldown and you don't have the option of using it at range. HOWEVER, with smart play and good tactics and decisions, this ability can increase DPS by quite a bit. I just can't shake the feeling that it should be different somehow... I'll update after further testing.

Measure the Foe
Thank you thank you thank you thank you THANK YOU for this ability. Oh it is so perfect. The flavor of thinking of an assassin just waiting in the shadows, studying his opponent, crafting his moment of attack to improve his chances of an instant kill make me want to hug someone. Not only that, it gives a much needed boost to the DC of assassins since EpicGH came out. I sincerely hope that assassins don't take this ability too far and do nothing but stay in sneak the whole time. Rogues, if you do this, I will find you, no matter how sneaky you are. You are instakillers AND DPS. Don't neglect the DPS between the instakills.

Knife Specialization
I had problems swallowing this ability at first. The ability fits well, but... remember when I said Dagger in the Back was great because it added diversity? Well my first impressions of this ability was that it took that diversity right back out. With this ability, any knife or a kukri becomes 1d4 18-20 x3. This out DPS's any of the other options made available to you with Dagger in the Back (eg Shortwords or Rapiers). However, while wielding 2 Agonys on Lamannia against kobolds may make this seem OP, in reality, there is not always going to be a dagger that best fits your situation and you're lucky to have 2 Agony's in the first place. In that respect, if you do have 2 Agonys you deserve the boost. I still think this tilts the Dagger/Kukri wielding assassin into the “almost always better and you are gimp if you're not” category though. I can't think of a solution to remedy though...


Other thoughts
The trees are designed very well. The “essential” abilities (Haste Boost, Faster Sneaking) are all easily reachable. To reach some other abilities, I have to make decisions on what I have to sacrifice (eg I'd have to sacrifice my assassinate DC a bit in order to take No Mercy or Improved Defensive Roll). So good job on the AP costs. I've always said in games like this, when the decision is hard, the design is good. Good job on encouraging some hard decisions devs :D.


Will post later with my thoughts on the rest later after I LR my rogue to better fit the other prestiges.

For Assassins, the tier of Wand and Scroll Mastery is too high, and there are no must-abilities in Tier 1&2 of Mechanic tree.

Unlike the Acrobat tree, the Fast Sneaking is a must for assassins and Sly Flourish/Charming are also good abilities, then they will have access to Attack Speed Boost and Subtlety.

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Originally Posted by nibel

The lost capstone 4d6 sneak is much more problematic than the sneak damage lines. I loved the suggestion to add 1d6 to the other rogue capstones.

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I forgot my other suggestion on increasing the Sneak Attack damage for Acrobats and Mechanics.

The Devs should add a Sneak Attack die to the 4th tier of Staff Training and Crossbow Training. This would also help these Prestige classes with the loss of the Sneak Attack capstone. With the sneak attack damage added on there, it's a deep investment (8 AP) on their preferred weapon. Acrobats and Mechanics won't be able to get the extra damage when using some other weapon, so it's not an across the board sneak attack increase.

Full commentary in this thread.

What I'm perceiving acrobats lost:

• The promise of actual 20% staff alacrity
• 4d6 SA capstone
• Dexterity mod to sneak attack damage
• Enhancement to run/walk speed--where did that go?
• Showtime clicky. Mostly useless only the dex portion stacked and it consumed a haste boost, which is 99% more useful
• A whopping 4% dodge, unless you count a -30% fortification debuff and +3% dodge a net gain. It's not.
• THE OBVIOUS SYNERGY BETWEEN STRENGTH-ACROBATS AND TACTICAL DCs, OVERWHELMING CRITICAL QUALIFICATION, EASY-TO-ACQUIRE STRENGTH BOOSTS, LEGENDARY DREADNOUGHT, AND POWER ATTACK THF 1.5(DAMAGE).

That's huge. That's terrible. That's really crappy. Shame on you, devs. The only way to rectify this is to craft an enhancement that allows dex to be used if it's higher than strength for to-hit and damage, the use of dex for 1.5 damage with power attack, and the use of dex for all tactical abilities--particularly stunning blow and trip. The cost of the dex to-hit/damage that people shouldn't be forced to purchase anyway should be cut in half or autogranted.

They gained:

• Vault, which is neat
• No Mercy (except almost no ability to induce helplessness themselves)
• Snazzier defensive roll (though I suspect most won't train this)
• Ephemeral post-tumble buffs (which are functionally useless since you're reducing your DPS to pause forever and tumble, reposition relative to enemy, and take advantage of the nanosecond of buff that you get from tumbling)

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Originally Posted by arcattaii

For Assassins, the tier of Wand and Scroll Mastery is too high, and there are no must-abilities in Tier 1&2 of Mechanic tree.

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Why you don't want quick disable, +3 to skills, or skill boost?

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Originally Posted by SableShadow

There seems to be a need for a general "Class" tree in addition to "Racial" and "PrE" trees ... I assume there's a similar need for classes other than Rogue.

I don't mean "put all the good stuff" in one tree, but from what I can tell Mechanics and Acrobats get further behind in game of DPS bingo with this change compared to Live. A general "Class" tree for SA die enhancements would solve that problem.

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I don't think a general class tree is needed. You just dip into the other trees as needed. My assassin focused rogue was easily able to dip into mechanic and acrobat to pick up those "general" items (haste boost, disable boosts...). It may be more useful to indentify those items that should be generally used and make sure they are not too high up the tree so they can be accessed.