Haggle Bard - Mississippi Queen

Bards cc spells struggle because of the type of mobs at the current end game. Since we currently have devils which have high will saves and our staple spells are will save spells our cc spells are not that useful. I was looking forward to mod 8 because it was going to have other mob types such as giants that I could cc well, but alas the devs made them immune to enchantment effects which really hurts since next mod should have alot more devils which have high will saves.

Web is far superior to any bard cc spell in the current end game. Otto's dance ball is a will save spell, has a slower casting time, and is laggy. Ottos dance is a single target and short range. All other bard cc spells either give the mobs will or fort saves.

I have always thought the concept of building a haggle bard very boring. Qwijy and Gtar, who have their own business on Khyber, are the exception, but to build a bard just to make a little cash seems not fun. My spellsinger bard has a 60+ haggle, but I made her and play her all the time because I really enjoy her. In the VOD raid she is my best character by a longshot. She takes up a cleric spot and supplies bard songs and buffs - what isn't to like with that.

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Originally Posted by maddmatt70

Bards cc spells struggle because of the type of mobs at the current end game. Since we currently have devils which have high will saves and our staple spells are will save spells our cc spells are not that useful. I was looking forward to mod 8 because it was going to have other mob types such as giants that I could cc well, but alas the devs made them immune to enchantment effects which really hurts since next mod should have alot more devils which have high will saves.

Web is far superior to any bard cc spell in the current end game. Otto's dance ball is a will save spell, has a slower casting time, and is laggy. Ottos dance is a single target and short range. All other bard cc spells either give the mobs will or fort saves.

I have always thought the concept of building a haggle bard very boring. Qwijy and Gtar, who have their own business on Khyber, are the exception, but to build a bard just to make a little cash seems not fun. My spellsinger bard has a 60+ haggle, but I made her and play her all the time because I really enjoy her. In the VOD raid she is my best character by a longshot. She takes up a cleric spot and supplies bard songs and buffs - what isn't to like with that.

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Rosewood accidentally suggested an orange key holding named on elite the other day... as usual I get ribbed for it by guildies and then have to song of freedom it off. Fact is for as gimped as she should be I think she the luckiest roller of all my casters... Ask Riftlord 'bout how many times he's complained about her silly charms and holds. She's actually feated slightly towards dex based melee rather then spell dropping, ah...

Some will save spells seem to land better then others ... but you are correct. Bard spell pene is generally reachable as any other spell caster... DC is another story as we're behind by 3 on averages. Rosewood the gimpy elven bard born of mod 1 ... I've pondered rerolling many times over and over again. Guildies cry on my shoulder whenever I talk about it and of course as my last existing 28 point girl I am a tad sentimental about her - I know just pixels but still. Surprisingly the little spellsinger manages to seek roles in groups and contribute a great deal... she seems to shine a lot when i least expect her to - "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants" - this is actually her contribution she just fills in the little gaps, smoothing out a parties week area but makes their strengths even better while doing so. As such, she is by far the most fun of all my classes to play ... thus Rosewood remains.

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Originally Posted by Emili

Surprisingly the little spellsinger manages to seek roles in groups and contribute a great deal... she seems to shine a lot when i least expect her to - "Standing on the Shoulders of Giants" - this is actually her contribution she just fills in the little gaps, smoothing out a parties week area but makes their strengths even better while doing so. As such, she is by far the most fun of all my classes to play ... thus Rosewood remains.

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Thank you Emili for describing your gaming experiences with Rosewood. Reading your post has certainly enhanced my confidence. That's exactly the role I'm hoping to fill. Seems that whenever I start sound bursting and dancing, I get oohs and ahhs. With a spell pen item in hand, even at level 8, her crowd control is potent. I know times will get tougher, but as long as I scale my spell pen up as I go, maybe swap a few spells around, I am expecting to continue to befuddle the enemy.

Somehow, even though I love my more dominating builds, this one is hella fun to play. I have PLENTY i can do leveling her up. I HAVE BEEN the only healer. I HAVE BEEN providing debilitation crowd control.

Mississippee IS the buying, selling, dancing, buffing, healing, debuffing, curing so you can sleep medicine!!! ;)

Ive had a few people ask me what items am I using. Looking for a good combo of weapons is the secret to effective crowd control. Years of playing my crowd control specialist Frobozz taught me that...

At level 8, Im wielding a Spell Penetration V heavy mace of Wizardry II and a Superior Devotion III shield of stability. Great combo for the low-mid levels. I also have a Power IX dagger I purchased real cheap (of course!:)) that I use when I'm playing the role of cleric. Mississippee has 591 spell points at this level. Not too shabby at all. Back yourself up with a couple of Cure Serious wands and some cleansing wands (curse, disease, neutralize poison, lesser restore, etc) and you'll be a pretty potent healing bard.

Anyone else use(d) a better combo during this level range? How about suggestions for end game gear?

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Originally Posted by maddmatt70

Bards cc spells struggle because of the type of mobs at the current end game. Since we currently have devils which have high will saves and our staple spells are will save spells our cc spells are not that useful.

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Im a long time follower of your posts Maddmatt. Never afraid to debate. My kind of poster ! :) There is no doubt you are correct about bards struggle at end game. We dont have a lot of spells to chose from either. However, the ones we DO have I think are very useful in the proper situation. I think you sell some bards spells short, you blew right over spells like soundburst, glitterdust, and crushing despair (which I consider to be our version of enervate. -2 to saving throws is big)

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Originally Posted by LeslieWest_GuitarGod

Im a long time follower of your posts Maddmatt. Never afraid to debate. My kind of poster ! :) There is no doubt you are correct about bards struggle at end game. We dont have a lot of spells to chose from either. However, the ones we DO have I think are very useful in the proper situation. I think you sell some bards spells short, you blew right over spells like soundburst, glitterdust, and crushing despair (which I consider to be our version of enervate. -2 to saving throws is big)

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Crushing despair is an interesting spell, but I prefer an enervate scroll at least where spell resistance is not an issue.. :).. Soundburst and glitterdust are both fort saves which have similiar issues to greater shout. It is really reflex cc which is dominate vs. devils - heightened webs are the bomb really. AOE CC reflex save yadda yadda..

I have made the decision to increase Mississippee's spell penetration to its max possible. This way she can have ALL the spell pen feats and ALL of the haggle feats. I think this will further her reputation as being not just a haggle bot but a top flight crowd control bard. Healing wont take a hit much at all, what few points she loses can be wand wipped or scrolled. She will do three things GREAT. Haggle, CC, and Heal.

Here's what changed to the original build:

At Level 1 - I replaced Mental Toughness with Spell Penetration.
At level 9 - I replaced Negotiator with Greater Spell penetration.
At level 15 - I replaced Spell Penetration with Negotiator.

I have 591 spell points at level 8 without mental toughness. Thats plenty of spell points. By keeping Negotiator, her end game haggle will be the same.

The great thing about this build is that you can swap out some of the haggle feats and/or the spell pen feats and add another flavor to your bard. Want more spell points, swap in a mental toughness or 2. However, I feel that, the way I choose to build her and play her, that this might be the best possible formula.

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Originally Posted by maddmatt70

Crushing despair is an interesting spell, but I prefer an enervate scroll at least where spell resistance is not an issue.. :).. Soundburst and glitterdust are both fort saves which have similiar issues to greater shout. It is really reflex cc which is dominate vs. devils - heightened webs are the bomb really. AOE CC reflex save yadda yadda..

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Umm If I recall correctly the only non will based spells a bard has in there possable spell selection are Blindness , Soundburst, the two shout spells and the always forgotten Grease.

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Originally Posted by Tuney

Umm If I recall correctly the only non will based spells a bard has in there possable spell selection are Blindness , Soundburst, the two shout spells and the always forgotten Grease.

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Lets not forget about Heroes Feast (conjuration), Summon Monster VI (conjuration), Shadow walk (Illusion), Break Enchantment (Abjuration), Dimension Door (conjuration), to name just a few more spells. Remember a bard isnt an insta-kill or even really an offensive damage caster type. His/her job is best served to make the enemy as off balanced and handicapped as possible... making them cannon fodder for da "good fellas!" :)

repost

I have been actively following this thread as I am leveling a Spellsinger / Hagglebard myself. My base stats are almost identical to Mississippi's (Str is 14, Con is 16 only difference). I do not wish to shift the focus of discussion, but I am curious on your perspective of UMD. I took Skill Focus UMD at 6th, not sure that was a good choice, what does it take to get a bard able to cast heal scrolls, raise dead etc. Lastly, while I understand the difference in the game of DC and SR, what has a greater impact on my ability to land Disco ball and other CC spells, Spell Focus Enchanment / Greater Spell focus or Spell Pen / Greater Spell pen. Just don't have the feats to do everything I want (who does).

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Originally Posted by Tharlak

I have been actively following this thread as I am leveling a Spellsinger / Hagglebard myself. My base stats are almost identical to Mississippi's (Str is 14, Con is 16 only difference). I do not wish to shift the focus of discussion, but I am curious on your perspective of UMD. I took Skill Focus UMD at 6th, not sure that was a good choice, what does it take to get a bard able to cast heal scrolls, raise dead etc. Lastly, while I understand the difference in the game of DC and SR, what has a greater impact on my ability to land Disco ball and other CC spells, Spell Focus Enchanment / Greater Spell focus or Spell Pen / Greater Spell pen. Just don't have the feats to do everything I want (who does).

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Hey Tharlak. You arent shifting the convo at all. Actually I was going to mention UMD next, so Im happy you started it! Heres the first thing you need to know:

"UMD Pricebook"

Arcane Spells Scrolls

Scroll of Banishment.................... 40
Scroll of Flesh To Stone................ 40
Scroll of Greater Heroism............... 40
Scroll of Mass Invisibility............. 44
Scroll of Reconstruct................... 40
Scroll of Summon Monster VII............ 44
Scroll of Symbol of Stunning............ 44
Scroll of Tenser's Transformation....... 40
Scroll of Waves of Exhaustion........... 44

Divine Spell Scrolls

Scroll of Resurrection.................. 44
Scroll of Cure Critical Wounds.......... 32
Scroll of Cure Serious Wounds........... 28
Scroll of Divine Power.................. 32
Scroll of Greater Restoration........... 44
Scroll of Heal.......................... 40
Scroll of Heroes' Feast................. 40
Scroll of Mass Cure Light Wounds........ 36
Scroll of Mass Cure Moderate Wounds..... 40
Scroll of Mass Restoration.............. 44
Scroll of Mass Shield of Faith.......... 44
Scroll of Mass Spell Resistance......... 44
Scroll of Neutralize Poison............. 32
Scroll of Prayer........................ 28
Scroll of Raise Dead.................... 36
Scroll of Recitation.................... 32
Scroll of Remove Disease................ 28
Scroll of Restoration................... 32

I was originally planning to take Skill Focus UMD but ultimately decided against it. At level 10 (just turned 10), I'm already at 29 UMD. I already have an 85% chance to hit a full restore or recitation scroll.

Ok so I've been away a long time and this may sound like a really stupid question but I have a bard and I'm trying to get my haggle a bit higher. What are house D pots? And where in house D do I get them? lol sorry if that is kind of silly but it's driving me nuts.
thanks
Shybright

Lets see what the total UMD "could be" on Mississippee:

Total UMD:

18: Base
4: Level
9: Crafted Weapon
3: +3 Charisma Tome
4: Enhancements
3: Alchemical
1: Litany
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42: Total Charisma

ADD RANKS, BUFFS, ITEMS

19: Ranks
16: Cha
6: Charisma Item
5: Titan Raid Gloves
2: Head Of Good Fortune
4: Greater Heroism
2: Spellsinger Song
2: Inspire Competence from another Bard
5: Human Boost (20 seconds)
3: Alchemical skills
3: Skill Focus: UMD (Enhancement)
1: Focus Chant spell
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68: TOTAL UMD by LEVEL 16

Now lets start chopping.

-3 Skill Focus: UMD
-3 Alchemical skills
-2 Replace "Titan Raid Gloves" with the easier to find Golden Cartouche (+3 umd).
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60

As you can see 44-60 UMD is totally reasonable, and without taking the UMD feat!

Charisma, Haggle and UMD go together like Moe, Larry, and Curly. ;)

Thank you for that "work up" on UMD. I will certainly be switching that out at some point.

I must say that this is a great thread if you are a bard. Period. A lot of good input and discussion.

A quick question from some of your earlier posts. Is it better to take Spell Pen (and enhancements) or Spell Focus Enchantment to get your CC to land? I know that they serve different functions. But due to limited feats, you can't do everything.

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Originally Posted by Tharlak

Thank you for that "work up" on UMD. I will certainly be switching that out at some point.

I must say that this is a great thread if you are a bard. Period. A lot of good input and discussion.

A quick question from some of your earlier posts. Is it better to take Spell Pen (and enhancements) or Spell Focus Enchantment to get your CC to land? I know that they serve different functions. But due to limited feats, you can't do everything.

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Chime in on a few points. While you are leveling up, Skill Focus UMD can really help you pull off some hgher level scrolls since it is effectively another 15% on success. Instead of failing 25% (1 in 4 attempts) of the time, you only fail 10% (1 in 10 attempts) and that can make a BIG difference in keeping people alive. However, once your UMD hits the levels where it is 43, there are currently no scrolls in the game worth casting with UMD's greater than 44, so overkill is overkill and the FEAT could and should be swapped out (for perhaps Skill Focus: Haggle) since there is no top end of utility for haggling:)

As for Spell Pen vs Spell Focus Enchantment, that will really depend on the level and type of mobs you are facing at the time. If you are facing a mob with SR, then if you can't get past it, the bonus to Enchantment is completely wasted, and most Bards, and Spellsingers especially have darn good DC on their spells to start with. So if you were tossing feats into one of those, at end game you might find more bang for your buck with Spell Pen. IT can be amusing to run around the vale with a herd of charmed devils...just be sure to stagger the charms so they don't ALL break at once.

At lower levels it was always good times to charm a group of trolls on Sorrowdusk and have them kill things (expect other trolls...endless battles with generally no winner).

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Originally Posted by Tharlak

Thank you for that "work up" on UMD. I will certainly be switching that out at some point.

I must say that this is a great thread if you are a bard. Period. A lot of good input and discussion.

A quick question from some of your earlier posts. Is it better to take Spell Pen (and enhancements) or Spell Focus Enchantment to get your CC to land? I know that they serve different functions. But due to limited feats, you can't do everything.

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The very first rule to crowd control is mastering Spell Penetration. If you can't bypass a monster's spell resistance, it's O-V-E-R. How many monsters have spell resistance? Make it easy on yourself. In the later game content, consider that EVERYTHING has spell resistance! Trust me, it's just easier that way! ;) It would be silly for a wizard to take ALL the spell focuses. But a Bard is really known for mainly their enchantment line of spells. A wizard has a HUGE spellbook to choose from. Bard's have few spells at our arsenal, and we NEED them to STICK.

For me, I chose to go balls-to-the-wall on spell penetration. I know first hand (after countless hours testing spell pen on Frobozz over the last 2 3/4 years) that even though I max spell pen, I'm going to miss. It takes practice, and paying attention to the mobs that arent worthy!!

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Originally Posted by sisterjinx

Ok so I've been away a long time and this may sound like a really stupid question but I have a bard and I'm trying to get my haggle a bit higher. What are house D pots? And where in house D do I get them? lol sorry if that is kind of silly but it's driving me nuts.
thanks
Shybright

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Good Question Shybright,

Most self-professed "elites" dont even know how to answer this one, trust that I asked ;) Heres the real dope on the "mysterious" House D collectors.


Drow Artifact Collector - Zolor drexxian - Top of House Deneith
Chipped Bone Talismans --- 3 --- +1 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Ivory Scorpion Icons --- 2 --- +2 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Tear of Vulkoor --- 1 --- +3 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Collectable Nodes: Cabinets, Crude Altars from Desert Quests

Text Collector - Mayda Yarrowmill - Top of House Deneith
3 Mystical Formulae --- 3 --- +1 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Academic Treatises --- 2 --- +2 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Tome: Alchemist's Chapbook --- 1 --- +3 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Collectable Nodes: Bookshelves, Rubble

Fungus Collector (from Restless isles) - Tarbox - Top of House Deneith
Ruddy Fungi --- 3 --- +1 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Bloodfest Fungi --- 2 --- +2 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Sanguine Moth --- 1 --- +3 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Collectable Nodes: Mushrooms from the Restless Isles Quests

Ritual Paraphernalia Collector - Maxon Dreamwalker - Top of House Deneith
Blessed Candles --- 3 --- +1 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Silver Bowls --- 2 --- +2 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Ritual Athame --- 1 --- +3 Potion of Skill (effects skills) or Influence (Stat increase) (both stack with other enhancers).
Collectable Nodes: Cabinets, Crude Altars


*NOTE 1* Skill Potions provide a bonus to skills based on the relavent Stat.

*NOTE 2* Influence Potions provide a bonus to the relavent Stat.

*NOTE 3* Skill and Influence Potions provide an appropriate Alchemal bonus to the appropriate Skill or Attribute. This bonus is CUMULATIVE with other bonus of different types.

Example: Eagle's Skill will combine with Command (+2 to CHA skills), while Eagle's Influence will provide a bonus to your CHA Stat.

Here's a photo of the House D collectors. They are north of the river and up the tower. The entrance is in the rear of the tower. That will take you directly to the top of the tower.

The 1st pot in my inventory is a +3 pot of influence. Influence pots are STAT increasers. So this is a stackable +3 CHA pot!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3456/...7ef15122eb.jpg

Here's a map of all the House D vendor locations...

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...DeneithMap.jpg

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Originally Posted by Zenako

Chime in on a few points. While you are leveling up, Skill Focus UMD can really help you pull off some hgher level scrolls since it is effectively another 15% on success. Instead of failing 25% (1 in 4 attempts) of the time, you only fail 10% (1 in 10 attempts) and that can make a BIG difference in keeping people alive. However, once your UMD hits the levels where it is 43, there are currently no scrolls in the game worth casting with UMD's greater than 44, so overkill is overkill and the FEAT could and should be swapped out (for perhaps Skill Focus: Haggle) since there is no top end of utility for haggling:)

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This is certainly an option. Many spellslingers take Skill Focus UMD, then swap it out for Skill Focus Haggle later on. There's really no right and wrong here. However I chose against it because I didnt feel it was worth a dragonshard to make this swap. Looking back, Im happy with my decision. Ive never been in a situation where I wish I took the skill focus for UMD. Math is math though, so taking this direction is perfectly acceptable.