Monster Champion Feedback

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12-14-2014, 04:20 PM
Knobull

Observation:

After having run some quests in groups today (Heroic Elite) the champions are much worse with scaling.

I have a much easier time of it when running solo.

I will repeat: in my experience with it so far, it is now much easier to solo heroic elite than to run heroic elite in a group. This is the opposite effect from what many desire.

I will cope with it one way or the other, I just thought it might be important to point that out.
12-14-2014, 04:20 PM
katz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vargouille

Checking in to say that we're still reading along. We have certainly expected some changes to be coming. Thanks for all the great feedback!

It's possible some elements are not working exactly as intended, and of course the design can probably be improved after seeing live play.

My live play this weekend seems to indicate the number of champions is working roughly as intended, but I haven't personally checked every server on a variety of difficulty and levels, which could theoretically result in different experiences for different players . It may also have been a design mistake for orange named minibosses to have dramatically higher chance of being Champion Monsters, since that skews the overall count a great deal. Some players explicitly noted that the 10% mark seemed to be hit closer on quests with more monsters, which fits the model of statistical randomness in general, and probably the overall impact of orange name minibosses, as they're may be less minibosses as a percentage of overall monsters in those quests. (Minibosses need to be separated out from the statistics, in order to get proper data on non-Champion spawn rates for both minibosses and otherwise).

i know i felt in the first few days i played... it sure FELT like the spawn rate was higher than 10%... and since i just ETRed my monkcher for the sake of ANOTHER experiment (trying to go 20-28 with no repeats), i decided to keep track of the quests as i level up.

i kept track of total non-miniboss champions killed (if i saw one, but i didn't kill it, i didn't record it), mini boss champions were marked separately... i intend to record if mini-bosses are champions or not, total number of champions spawned with incorrect staring HP (by that i mean the ones that spawn with half HP), and total number of mobs killed.

my time was limited today... have to go to work.. so only one quest... but... as of first quest:
EH Enter the Rift. 88 mobs killed 11 champions resulting in an overall 12.5% champion rate. of those champions, 2 spawned at half HP. 1 orange named miniboss (the Draegoloth), and it was a champion (incidentally it gave me a chest). the named drow wizard is not an orange name, so it was not counted as a miniboss(it was normal... non champion... which didn't stop him from casting prismatic ray on me and one-shotting me, but oh well >.> )

i will continue to keep track as i level thru to 28 and report back
12-14-2014, 04:22 PM
Springstring

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vargouille

Checking in to say that we're still reading along. We have certainly expected some changes to be coming. Thanks for all the great feedback!

It's possible some elements are not working exactly as intended, and of course the design can probably be improved after seeing live play.

My live play this weekend seems to indicate the number of champions is working roughly as intended, but I haven't personally checked every server on a variety of difficulty and levels, which could theoretically result in different experiences for different players . It may also have been a design mistake for orange named minibosses to have dramatically higher chance of being Champion Monsters, since that skews the overall count a great deal. Some players explicitly noted that the 10% mark seemed to be hit closer on quests with more monsters, which fits the model of statistical randomness in general, and probably the overall impact of orange name minibosses, as they're may be less minibosses as a percentage of overall monsters in those quests. (Minibosses need to be separated out from the statistics, in order to get proper data on non-Champion spawn rates for both minibosses and otherwise).

This is currently by design, but the exact list of possible Champion buffs can change in the future.

It's definitely an interesting idea, at least for some of the buffs (perhaps Deathward in particular).

As noted elsewhere, Champion buffs are generally level agnostic, or scale with the quest level, or scale with the monster's base statistics. If a level 20 Champion Buff is giving something like 20d4 damage than the level 5 version would be giving 5d4 damage. These are still up for review and changes, of course.

This is the current general mode that is in use. The miniboss list is separated for Hard and Elite, as well. There are some buffs that don't appear on Hard, or only appear on minibosses or *can't* appear on minibosses. Every buff on Hard does have a chance to show up on Elite as well, for the same type of monster: miniboss or not.

It is currently working as intended that Monster Champions do not show up in Challenges, though that could be looked at in the future.

What I'll say: Damage numbers from Terminal Delirium are not representative of damage numbers in most of DDO, whether or not the enemies are Champions.
I'm not sure where that reference is coming from - that we feel everything in Terminal Delirium or Monster Champions are 100% working as intended.

We love posts from players haven't posted before (and who we can confirm are linked to a unique account or not), though it's unfortunate if the motivation is only because they are upset. Posts from players who have never posted before are certainly something we pay attention to; if someone never felt the need to speak before now and is suddenly motivated, this is clearly one of the most important things they've felt has happened in DDO.

Interesting on how you seem to always comment it's working as intended, makes someone wonder what your intentions are.
If it is to **** of most players, Well done
Is it to cause people to become frustrated and fell there only recourse is to quit playing Again well done.
is it to appease the minority Elitist players, you hit the mark
Is it to make players that do spend money on the game feel they get cheated, wonder full job
Is it to make players feel their concerns are no address, Best job yet
12-14-2014, 04:23 PM
Keladon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hilltrot

For the most part, things will just be "a little harder" . . . .

But once in a while . . . .

BAM. You're dead.

That's the problem - one spellcaster gets a crown and is still a pushover but with more hit points. The other three start firing the kill-you spells.

Tried lord of stone elite - no problem right. Now try Acute Delerium in Heroic Elite. And good luck finding a party for that one.

However, even lord of stone elite would have given me problems if the right set of monsters got the right crowns over their head.

It's relative to how lucky or unlucky you are. And it's more of an annoyance than a difficulty. I wish they would have been careful when implementing this, but they weren't.

There was this one crown guy that took me 5 minutes to bring to zero. He just had obnoxious hit points. I didn't have to heal myself or dodge anything, even with it's increase in damage. It had mindblank and deathblock. Was sitting there for five minutes pressing my left mouse button difficult or just stupid?

I really don't like this **** shoot

This. 100% This.

Being unlucky shouldn't cause you to fail a quest.
Where is the skill in that? Where is the fun in that?

And no, bad rolls don't cause me to fail quests, I'm used to rolling 1's, it's annoying but not deadly.
12-14-2014, 04:32 PM
psykopeta

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cordovan

Now that Update 24 is out, and clearly there's a lot of community interest in discussing the new Monster Champion system, we thought it would be a good idea to consolidate the large number of threads on this topic into an official thread. Please run some quests, give it a bit of time, and provide us with your feedback on the Monster Champion system.

We have seen a lot of feedback that appears to be tilted toward Terminal Delerium in particular. It should be noted that Terminal Delerium is an Extreme Challenge dungeon, so particularly if you are running it on Epic Elite, it may not be the best quest to singularly evaluate Monster Champions on. That said, we do appreciate all of your feedback on this topic, regardless of what quest(s) are being used to evaluate the system.

Thanks!

me thinks the trouble is:

normal or casual, low number of mobs, and weak, i guess
hard, moar mobs, stronger, some champions
elite, even moar mobs, even stronger, even more champions

maybe, the troubles that people are finding (like red alert with 34824732 champions or simply more than 2 champions at once) is caused by the increase of number of mobs that come with the difficult increase

maybe, i mean, MAYBE, the champions thing should remain, and simply reduce the "mobs population increase depending on difficult and party members"

cause it makes me sad that a good idea gets nerfed cause so many posts complaining (however some people are damm right, they tested in lammania and reported it, that's why lammania is the test server, to test things, imo)
12-14-2014, 04:35 PM
Bowmagus

I wish this had come in a month earlier...

That way I would be sitting with an extra 80 quid in my account now, because I wouldn't have renewed VIP with this mechanic the way it is.

I didn't read the release notes immediately as I like to try and see if I can spot the differences, so I ended up dead in seconds. OK - so new mechanic makes solo much harder I thought. (That was BoB, HE with Mnk9).

Tried working up to it to see where the stupid starts - so MIA is doable (same toon), champs not that much different to normal mobs.
Take another step - First Strike - silly straight away - first group of Hobs and 2 champs, 3 thumps dead. There is just no way they can be gotten rid of before that damage gets you.

I've tried many different quests now, with varying toons and it just seems that Elite soloing is dead. Grouping up at least ended up with the quest complete, it always came with multiple deaths - whoever pulled aggro from the champs - bang, bang dead.

A new mechanic should bring some variety to the game, add a new dimension, need evolution of style to enjoy. It shouldn't instantly make all that has been learned before redundant, cause more frustration than pleasure such that you end up wondering why you bothered logging on.

As it is now, I'm sat wishing I still had more money in my account, instead of seeing my VIP time drip away while the game has become something I don't enjoy. Obviously I'm going to have to work something out, because I can't bear the thought of just wasting that amount of money for only 3 weeks of play as I was enjoying it - but I'm getting the feeling that whatever the new way of playing is that works - it definitely isn't what I'd evolved over the last 4 years. My play evolved that way because I enjoyed it - it had the balance of challenge such that no quest was a cert, but at least I felt it was achievable.

Until I can get back to enjoyable again, then the renew option will stay cancelled, no point spending TP as it feels like throwing good money after bad. I feel so despondent at this poorly introduced change that I am not sure how much effort I can put into finding the fun again before I give up and move on.
\
12-14-2014, 04:43 PM
DarthCaedus

Quote:

Originally Posted by Springstring

Interesting on how you seem to always comment it's working as intended, makes someone wonder what your intentions are.
If it is to **** of most players, Well done
Is it to cause people to become frustrated and fell there only recourse is to quit playing Again well done.
is it to appease the minority Elitist players, you hit the mark
Is it to make players that do spend money on the game feel they get cheated, wonder full job
Is it to make players feel their concerns are no address, Best job yet

Thank you for making me smile :)

Very much this. On the plus side at least I am getting used to the controls in Neverwinter ahead of the double xp weekend.
12-14-2014, 04:43 PM
FranOhmsford

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillymiket

I respctfully disagree hre for the CC build.

With this change, a CC spec'ed Wiz or Bard, even first life can now do very well.

The Champions are very tough compared to an average trash.

So one Charmed Champ Chump on your side can clear a room pretty fast.

This makes CC strategy not as much the long chore it was by a very great deal, at least from my few days of soloing just such a build since the change.

Of course, you will still have to kill that Champion eventually and the boss but alone they are not so bad.

I was actually extrapolating from previous play and the well known "Hold Bot".

Hold Bots are fantastic in group play but when it comes to soloing they either don't have the instakills to take down trash OR they don't have the DPS to take down the boss/es {usually the latter}.

Now - Yes...We could now be seeing the advent of Charm Bots rather than Hold Bots but that's gonna take time to filter down to the average player who's got used over the past 4-8 years to Charm being not wanted!

The problem is the Devs yet again introducing a WHOLESALE System Change without accepting that it's going to cause specific and major problems!
12-14-2014, 04:54 PM
Sushiboat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vargouille

Checking in to say that we're still reading along. We have certainly expected some changes to be coming. Thanks for all the great feedback!

It's possible some elements are not working exactly as intended, and of course the design can probably be improved after seeing live play.

My live play this weekend seems to indicate the number of champions is working roughly as intended, but I haven't personally checked every server on a variety of difficulty and levels, which could theoretically result in different experiences for different players . It may also have been a design mistake for orange named minibosses to have dramatically higher chance of being Champion Monsters, since that skews the overall count a great deal. Some players explicitly noted that the 10% mark seemed to be hit closer on quests with more monsters, which fits the model of statistical randomness in general, and probably the overall impact of orange name minibosses, as they're may be less minibosses as a percentage of overall monsters in those quests. (Minibosses need to be separated out from the statistics, in order to get proper data on non-Champion spawn rates for both minibosses and otherwise).

Thanks for taking the time to drop in and give us some thoughts! I know y'all sometimes get a lot of flak from us when you do post, so thanks for keeping at it. :)

Can you give us any ideas on whether or not it's possible to control the number of spawns per group (or per location)?

I think a lot of complaints have come up about being mobbed by large groups of champions (essentially RNG screwed) and/or having groups of champions appear simultaneously (wave-based quests and respawns). If we could limit champions so they can't spawn too closely together, rather than just controlling the spawn percentage, I think that would go a long way towards making a lot of folks more comfortable with this change.

Just curious if that was a possibility with the current system.
12-14-2014, 04:59 PM
ForcedtoForum

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vargouille

Checking in to say that we're still reading along. We have certainly expected some changes to be coming. Thanks for all the great feedback! ....

My 2 cents. I rarely come to the forums, obviously - only for x-server trading of cards before.

But my input, I really like the addition of champions - this is the first change in the game in the almost 4 years I been here that felt like a true D&D addition instead of a subtraction to the game. The randomness of the dungeons are refreshing and take away the auto-pilot of everything. (Figure out how to move traps next and you got gold!)

That said - I'm a 'hardcore' casual. I play most days but I'm here for the fun. I don't xp/min, rarely zerg unless end up in a PUG or guild run with that intention. I solo a lot, especially content I'm unfamiliar with to learn it. It's hard to learn dungeons and do the crawl in a group - especially a veteran group. Don't grind dungeons into the ground for items but enjoy when something good comes up. This is just to give an overall perception of the type of player giving his 2 cents.

As for Champions themselves, I can only speak to heroic as I haven't tried the epics and dont really enjoy the epic levels a lot and been working on a couple TR's since the update.

1. Mini-bosses: WAY TOO MANY champions, literally about 7 out of 9 are crowned. I don't mind a challenge but that is a bit much. And if two+ are in the same vicinity - it's harder than the end fight. Definitely need to adjust the % these are crowned.

2. Trash: Fine as is, though have had a couple times where a mob of 10 and 6 are crowned. Usually not a good outcome but it does add a challenge.

3. HP & Damage: Most seem ok, but mini-bosses and casters seem over amped at times. Again it becomes a battle that is equal or greater challenge than the end fight. That doesn't seem right. If it was just the bloated HP to deal with OR the extreme damage but regular HP's - that would be acceptable. But when you are sawing down an ironwood that hits like a semi every time - that's not fun (Part of the reason I dont enjoy epics, overly inflated HP's is not a challenge just a boring sawfest, IMO.).

4. Honorable mention: Deathward - upper heroics seem to have a ton more champions spawn with that, and almost every mini-boss. Ran one of the wheelon ones (forgot name) and 8 out of 9 of them had it. That's not fun on a caster, after 8 pots wasted and not even to the first shrine I quit and shelved him.

So, definitely tweaks and adjustments need to be done but overall I really like the addition. Just need some toning down in heroics - let the epic people speak for epics.

Just dont tone them down too much otherwise this will be a wasted addition.
12-14-2014, 05:18 PM
EllisDee37

As one of the vocal proponents of champions, let me clarify my input since scaling has come up a couple times in the last couple pages. Here's my feedback:

Solo Play
Heroic Hard: No idea
Heroic Elite: No idea
Epic Hard: Champion frequency/strength seems perfect to me
Epic Elite: No idea

Group Play
Heroic Hard: No idea
Heroic Elite: No idea
Epic Hard: No idea
Epic Elite: No idea
12-14-2014, 05:18 PM
Bobby88888

I have one problem with champions. Deathblock. It is not fun having to stop before every encounter and check who has db on my assassin. And making it dispellable as was mentioned as a possibility earlier wont fix this as assassins clearly don't have dispel. So please remove deathblock from their possible buff list. Also almost every single orange named monster I've fought has been a champion which seems a little high to me as does 2-3 champions per encounter. But the only real problem for me is deathblock and being 1 shottered by them with 1100 hp.
12-14-2014, 05:20 PM
Keladon

Just ran Gladewatch Outpost defense.

Really loving these champions, especially when they 1-shot the NPC you have to protect.
Yes, 1 spell and commander Tesara Died, she could handle the normal mobs just fine, but a champion spellcaster took her down with 1 spell in 2 different runs.

But you know, as long as it adds challenge right!
I'm sure I could just get better gear and I would succeed.. oh wait.
12-14-2014, 05:26 PM
Qhualor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keladon

Just ran Gladewatch Outpost defense.

Really loving these champions, especially when they 1-shot the NPC you have to protect.
Yes, 1 spell and commander Tesara Died, she could handle the normal mobs just fine, but a champion spellcaster took her down with 1 spell in 2 different runs.

But you know, as long as it adds challenge right!
I'm sure I could just get better gear and I would succeed.. oh wait.

you know in the old days, we had 1-2 players stand by the side entrance to guard it. a cleric would stand near the main doorway spot healing them as needed and the rest of the party was in front of the cleric killing the mass mobs running towards the doorway get their heals from a cleric.

translate to today and could do the same thing and be team players helping each other out and have 1 capable of healing to guard the NPC.
12-14-2014, 05:28 PM
EllisDee37

I wouldn't hate it if every NPC we have to protect in every quest was automatically given champion status. (Heyton, Coyle, etc...)
12-14-2014, 05:32 PM
silverm_22

Reminded of old PnP

So, just got done running Necro 1 on my rogue and I've found myself flashing back to my pen and paper days. I joined a party of friends and we proceeded to run the quests as we would before the update. Before champs were introduced and could kill us in 2 hits. 17 total deaths. 17. I'll say it once more..... 17. We slow-zerged a slightly difficult Elite bb tr chain and died 17 times. Only the FvS made it through the chain without dying. I was aggravated at the time, but after a few minutes to calm down I'm transported back to the days when 'Don't split the party' wasn't just a phrase, it was a lifestyle. When our DM would randomly speak up and say, roll d20 and only the rogue would get it and be informed, you spot a creature sneaking up on your party from behind. When random encounters actually could ruin a dungeon venture. Granted, there was always a way out of said random encounters, whether giving up loot, having the bard tell a story, or just plain ol' scaring it away with the half orc's hideous face. But back then, zerging with the party was a party wipe. Always. Every time. It feels nice to have DDO bring that nostalgic feeling back.

All that being said, I love the champions, if hate the spawn rates and easiness of some compared to difficulty of others with no warning. That's not cool, it's not much fun, and makes me dread champions instead of the nervous anticipation that was always there in PnP. Granted, these are fixable and I can't wait to see what the devs do to correct them, and my group deserved those 17 deaths but I want a way to avoid champions if I can tell the party can't handle them. I'm not saying a checkbox, we already have difficulty settings and I understand the insane work it would take to truly make every champion unique, but is it possible to bluff our way out of them? Or use diplomacy? Like what happens in the Crucible?
12-14-2014, 05:38 PM
Keladon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qhualor

you know in the old days, we had 1-2 players stand by the side entrance to guard it. a cleric would stand near the main doorway spot healing them as needed and the rest of the party was in front of the cleric killing the mass mobs running towards the doorway get their heals from a cleric.

translate to today and could do the same thing and be team players helping each other out and have 1 capable of healing to guard the NPC.

You do know you can't heal a dead npc right? If an npc dies in 1 hit, there's no saving him or her.

The scaling a full group would cause, will only make this harder.

In the old days champions didn't exist so you could complete the quest succesfully, I agree with you on that.
12-14-2014, 05:40 PM
silverm_22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ancient

Overall, I like the change. I play mostly epics, so I can't speak to they balance in heroics... But epics seem fine. It had been a while since I had run EE since a guild mate convinced me that epic norm zergs are far faster exp. Due to a recent ETR, I was running epic elites at level 21.

For the most part, I could ignore champions. There were two notable exceptions. In DQ1, I locked myself in the monkey switch room solo with a champion shaman wildman. I ended up having to drink a potion to survive. I'm ok with that, +1 for making me pay attention. I also got one shorted by light damage in portal opens. Again, I'm ok with that. My hp was low at 21 and it had been far too long since light dmg was even a concern for me. EE wgu, was a complete cake walk. In all of this, I was off destiny. It is not that hard.

My thoughts and suggestions:
1. Tone the spawn rate down a little bit or put a cool down. Consider making some quests exempt from champions. This is needed both for playability and to prevent chest abuse.

2. Change the visual from a crown to something like an aura or sparkels. Use a name prefix to provide a clue on the type of buff. E.G. Frenzied kobold rather than just kobold.

3. Focus more on disruptive buffs rather than simple hit harder, more hp. Death ward and shield for making casters switch it up, high resistances of one type (including slash/pierce/bludgeon). On the offensive side.. Stun/blind/curse/tendon slice, anything players love to utilize should be something they sometimes have to face.
Overall, it has made the game more fun for me.

I love these ideas. More tactical=More better
12-14-2014, 05:41 PM
Qhualor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keladon

You do know you can't heal a dead npc right? If an npc dies in 1 hit, there's no saving him or her.

The scaling a full group would cause, will only make this harder.

In the old days champions didn't exist, so you could complete the quest succesfully, I'm sure that's what you're trying to say.

that's why you get some warm bodies to help using tactics like 1 guarding the NPC while the others draw the agro of the mobs before getting inside. sounds like you were soloing on elite?

right, Champions didn't exist then but grouping was the standard when normal was considered tough.
12-14-2014, 05:49 PM
Keladon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qhualor

that's why you get some warm bodies to help using tactics like 1 guarding the NPC while the others draw the agro of the mobs before getting inside. sounds like you were soloing on elite?

right, Champions didn't exist then but grouping was the standard when normal was considered tough.

Sound like you are assuming things? I was soloing on hard. She got killed with 1 spell on hard.

Guarding the npc? The npc that runs after every enemy she sees? For melee mobs, sure, but spellcasters can actually cast at range.
If she actually decided to stay inside that tactic would MAYBE work, but fixing the AI will have to wait, they're too busy introducing other frustrating features first.

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