Monster Champion Feedback

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Originally Posted by gypsythief

So I've been away for 10 months, playing a few other games. Came back just before update 24 hit, and had a blast finishing my wizard off to level 20 to TR, just as u24 landed.

Since then I've just died and died and died.

I've been playing this game for 4 years, and our guild is at level 57. We have never had any ship buffs, partly from principle, and partly because we've never needed them. Until now. It's been about the only way to mitigate some of the constant dying, but it certainly hasn't stopped it. I would sincerely hope that the game is not going to be balanced on the assumption that you have ship buffs, because surely a lot of newbies won't have them.

As an example of this idiocy, just now we started on Venn's Trail, (the third of the Waterworks chain.) Two of us at level 6 running the quest on elite. We cleared both sides to unlock the central shaft; I dropped over the edge into the shaft, came out the bottom and floated towards one of the walkways. As soon as I land:



And as I only have 98 HP as a level 6 Bard, and I was down a few from engaging a couple of melee's when I landed:



All in around a second, and far faster than I could cast any sort of heal.

It's gone waaaay beyond funny, and as the title says, I'm sick of it.

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Sorry, but isn't it far more fun when you actually have to think about it before jumping down a shaft into a room full of casters, throwers and melee? Try to think back to the first couple of times you played it, when it actually mattered to you what you were doing. Are you sure it was not more interesting than just enjoying a bit of banter on voice while you guys storm the dungeon?

Yes, I have also had moments when I suddenly realized that lower lvl quests weren't just a cakewalk I could do without even having to think about it (like kobold shaman champs hitting for 38+78 electric damage with rebound) But I embraced it as a positive and a wake up from "grind" and "farming".

Here's an idea...

The champions would be awesome and fun if they met the following criteria:

• They were rare

• They were special

• We could properly prepare for them

• They offered an incentive

Perhaps there is a 1-10% chance per quest of meeting a champion, who always spawned a chest with a clickable xp/guild renown token similar to saga rewards, possibly scaled to a % of quest xp like a regular optional, only you can save it for a rainy day. The reason I'd like a clickable xp/renown reward is that it would be nice to be able to save them for the future or pass them to an alt that's having a rough patch. The spawn rate would be low enough that if you didn't want to fight champions, you could recall and reset, and it would be unlikely that you'd spawn another one on the next try. (this could be problematic in longer quests if the champion spawns towards the end, however. Still easier to let us opt out at the quest dialog box.)

These champions would be tougher than the current iterations, possibly having 5 or more random buffs and extra HP. The champion might be announced with a battle horn when the party neared, so that they could prepare and formulate a strategy. A rogue might be helpful for sneaking nearby and telling the party what buffs it has. Maybe the champion is scaled up in size by 25%, so that it's very clear which enemy is the champion. I'm imagining a handful of ogres with one XL champion leading them. It seems worthy of champion status.

The buffs need to be less ham fisted. Extra HP only makes them a chore to kill. Extra damage frustrates players when they get one-shotted out of nowhere. Spell-like buffs such as energy resistance, death ward and blur are perfectly acceptable, as are effects like rage and haste. Being hit with 20 stacks of vulnerability in one shot is a turn-off, because no player can do that. We're supposed to be the heroes, so having all of our character building work squashed in one shot or otherwise rendered useless feels insulting and cheap.

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Originally Posted by Aletys

My comments were to his proposed changes, not to the current implementation, which is bad enough as it is. Your ranger & cleric were able to kill the champions because, as far as I know, there are currently no champions that are immune to all spells, nor are they immune to ranged attacks. He was proposing those changes, along with immunity to CC. Those are what I was objecting to.

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That was my point, my Pally had to risk a lot in order to do damage while my Cleric or Ranger could do dmg without getting hits.
Those who can kill mobs at range should eventually meet a mob which immune to the main dmg type the character uses.
Especially the easy button (i.e. Shiradi) should fail vs some mobs (a friend told me his Shiradi proc ~22K mass dmg and he agree with me about immunities).

I was waiting for quests with mobs having immunities for so long, Champions is a perfect way to implement that since it can be done in all quests.

EDIT.
Keep in mind that if a Champion would be immune to all spells then he would be as weak as other trash mobs since his big bonus would be just that immunity (no other immunities, no bonus to dmg, no hp bonus).
Such Champions wouldn't hit as hard as current Champions do, so going melee (or ranged) won't be a suicide for sure.

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Originally Posted by Albinosaurus

Nobody cares about the ones that left with MotU. We are talking about the people playing/quitting because of U24. As for the "future" of the game, by your definition, it doesn't matter. WoW has no future yet plenty of people still play it. It's 1/4 the game it used to be, but still has one of the biggest player bases of all MMOs (if not the actual biggest one), so while its fire is dwindling it doesn't need to worry about going out for quite some time yet. That isn't the case for DDO. They need to hang on to all the players they can, but newer players are much more plentiful and spend much more money on the game than vets do.



It doesn't matter if those things are needed, players want them. They are goals for people to shoot for, and they give people something fun to do. Most of the vets I talk to and play with only really play any more for completionist. What you don't seem to understand here is that the game is trying to balance somewhere between not needed them and offering a benefit for having them, and that TRing has kept the game alive for a lot longer than it otherwise would have.



Trying to say that most players won't spend money on this game is absurd, and shows how narrow your view really is. This game could not have become what it is if that were true, and subscriptions alone wouldn't cut it. Furthermore, I've talked hundreds (thousands?) of people about it during my experience in-game, and the number of them who never spent any money on it can be counted on one hand. This game may appear to have a f2p model, but it is anything but.

However, I already discussed how you can make the vets happy while keeping new players in the game earlier in this thread. You can read the actual post on pg 7 if you want the why of it, but here are a few things I suggested to make them tolerable if they must stay:



To be clear, I agree we want to keep as many players as possible, but if we have to let go of one group or the other, we can afford to lose vets. We can't afford to lose new players. And it could be a false dichotomy anyway. Vets quitting over champs not staying? Doubtful. It's probably more bark than bite. On the other hand, new players quitting--or simply not staying--because of this is a reality.

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Turbine should care. we should care. at the same time MOTU was released, casualization just begun. the numbers have gone down since then. its not the only reason why people left the game, but pretty coincidental don't you think? now the devs are stepping up 3 years later to provide challenge again and some will leave. some left the game when barbs stopped being a popular class to play. some left because of secret doors. there will always be people who don't agree with the changes to the game, but you have to focus on the positives it could do to the game. elite for a few years now has been "IP"/solo/shortman. I doubt that's what Turbine intended for us how they envisioned elite to be played as. some people are used to not needing teamwork. its a big change, but many of us that enjoyed grouping with others and liked teamwork had to make adjustments too. that was another reaon why some people left the game.

there have been complaints for a long time too that TRing is all there is to do for end game. end game pre-MOTU was something like 7 or 8 raids taking months to get your gear, having a stable of alts and TRing wasn't something you just did on a whim. now raids and new content is breezed through in a month. this may or may not change now that some of the duping has been controlled, but still could be a long time to see any real slowdown.

that I can agree with, unless you were a card duper. than you wouldn't spend as much as you could have.

we cant afford to lose vets just as much as we cant afford to lose new players, casuals or any other type of player. Turbine can make it so that all types of players can be rewarded properly and have the option for a difficulty that suits them the best. new players are impressionable. they view the game the way it is when they first log on all the way up to 28. if the game is considered in general to be easy, than if they continue playing, they will not want it to change because they get used it the way it is. if its not intended to be elite is practically no fail and the standard for a lot of groups, than they will not like the changes making it harder on them while some vet players have been craving for improvements to put things back in line the way it should be.

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Originally Posted by Nascoe

Sorry, but isn't it far more fun when you actually have to think about it before jumping down a shaft into a room full of casters, throwers and melee? Try to think back to the first couple of times you played it, when it actually mattered to you what you were doing. Are you sure it was not more interesting than just enjoying a bit of banter on voice while you guys storm the dungeon?

Yes, I have also had moments when I suddenly realized that lower lvl quests weren't just a cakewalk I could do without even having to think about it. But I embraced it as a positive and a wake up from "grind" and "farming".

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The point you make here is very true, assuming that there was anything to think about. In some cases, where I can see champions ahead and have been able to inspect them to see their buffs, then yes, what you say is true: I can plan and plot and find a way to beat them and it can be enjoyable.

The cases I am objecting to however are, like in my example, impossible to plan for. In this instance, I had to go down that shaft, I had as much (if not more) cold resistance that could be expected at that level, and yet within a second of me clearing the bottom I was dead with no time to react, and no way to plan. That changes it from being an interesting *how can I beat this enemy* challenge to a pointless punishment.

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Originally Posted by gypsythief

The point you make here is very true, assuming that there was anything to think about. In some cases, where I can see champions ahead and have been able to inspect them to see their buffs, then yes, what you say is true: I can plan and plot and find a way to beat them and it can be enjoyable.

The cases I am objecting to however are, like in my example, impossible to plan for. In this instance, I had to go down that shaft, I had as much (if not more) cold resistance that could be expected at that level, and yet within a second of me clearing the bottom I was dead with no time to react, and no way to plan. That changes it from being an interesting *how can I beat this enemy* challenge to a pointless punishment.

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Where were your other party members at this point?

So far, I love the champion system, so I would say, keep it!

BUT, it need to be tweaked. Not everone like the one hit trap in EE quests... but thats normal, I mean, its a **** trap! its made to kill you. but random trash mob just 1 zipping someone? Who the hell tough that quad dmg was a good idea? I mean... we get a buff, its a 2-20% buff, maybe 50% from some end tier Destinys, at end game! lvl 1-10 mobs having Quad Damage (so an 400% increase?) is way too much. Even if its 1% chance, having 100 mobs with +4% dmg is not the same has having 1 out of 100 dealing 400% damage. This is not a +XXX dmg (so lvl1 would be too OP, and EE end game wouldnt make a difference) but a buff that scale, it doesnt make sens to give quad bonus! Like many have stated, some random champion trash became deadlyer than the quest boss. A 10%, 20% increase would already make a difference (relatively) maybe even 50% on the rarer side, just for the "fear" effect.

Also I need to agree on the True sight buff... it is really annoying, specially with the next point;

There are too many of them. No idea how it is scripted, but it dosnt feel "random"; Some question will be totally ok, some other... will have all the orange names crowned. Even if it is really random, change it to be rarer because as of now, I see way too many Champion. And by champion, there shouldnt be many, only a few, otherwise they are not that much champion anymore if out of the 8 necromancer or whatever, 7 are champions.

Possible solution: keep same % chance, but make it so there cant spawn has a champion if there is already one within X metters. Or make it cap at a certain amount of mobs based on the "Conquest" kill number.

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Originally Posted by MangLord

[...]
I just ETRed yesterday, and ran Small Problem this morning on EH. Literally 95% of the orange named elementals were champions. I noticed one fire elemental without a crown over its head. I actually laughed when two earth elementals in a row had a dodge buff. An animated pile of rocks was dodging my attacks. Seriously. At the end fight, which was a fairly tough one before, all four of the wolves were champions. Needless to say, I alternated between being hit with Otto's Irresistible Dance and a wolf's trip until I got hit for 300ish damage after getting 20 stacks of vulnerability put on me and died. I have a very strong character, too.[...]

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That's the point.

Quests like these were hard enough without the champions even on hard for some people.

Let Sleeping Dust Lie on elite.. have fun!

Tomb of the Tormented.. sorry, but it was already a pain before - i'll skip that

The Crucible.. i guess i skip that one, too now

For those who like to argue 'elite is just for groups' - there isn't a 24/7 lfm up waiting for you to run the quest whenever you want. This are quests, NOT raids!

And there is also a server called Wayfinder where you can wait month before you will find a propper group to run certain quests.

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Originally Posted by Blackheartox

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Also as many said
There already IS a checkbox. It's called normal/hard/elite difficulties.

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People who think this a a constructuive reply should google the meaning of discussion - no offense, but so far you failed (must not be misinterpreted, it's by definition)


Isn't it the goal to find a way to make the majority feel good about playing the game?

For the company and also for us it is important to keep as many players spending their time in the game while feeling good about it.

With a good feeling about what you are doing, you are willing to spend in it. With time and money.

Keeping the Player for a longer time in the game increases the chance to get him donate for it.

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Originally Posted by Blackheartox

I like how most people write the same thing from multiple fresh new accounts they created.
Posts 1, join date 2014.

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because a silent part of the players cannot play actually with crown mobs, I think this new system force them to react and speak here for the first time.

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Originally Posted by Trillea

The option to not have champions is there - it's called normal difficulty. Both brand new chars and completionists alike can overcome champions and if you want I can roll up a brand new char on a server I have never been on and prove it.

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the option to play with new carracters with challenge without waste of time is not there.
I know that new players can win against monsters champions, I fight them with my news toons in elite at my level, I do not need you proof.
But try quests with escort and we will see if you're still happy to have your escort one-shooted by a random monster champion just before the end of the quest. Or if you will be happy to be one-shooted by a random and cannot finish the quest because the champion monster resist and cannot be killed before all the party members died.
normal mode is easy and have no fun excepted learning the game/classe or for running brainless, elite cannot be played if you have just 2h to spend with a first life. Sorry but it's not a game for me if with my 2h play a day if I cannot evaluate the difficulty of a quest because of the randomly insta-killer.

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Originally Posted by Talon_Dragonsbane

I see this as a negative for new players. A new player only starts with 28pts and with no twink gear. I know that most here will say, so...they can stick to normal. But that's the catch...a new player only sticking to normal will not find the game enjoyable...because as most have said, its too easy.

Most people here recounting how its not much harder for them on heroic hard or heroic elite are not brand new players. They have 32-36pts, twink gear, quest knowledge, character build knowledge, past lives, etc, to assist them in gameplay.

The goal of Turbine should be to hook these new players and convert them into DDO addicts. I cannot see how extreme challenges (for a brand new player) meant for veterans, will help convert a brand new player. This is especially problematic for a brand new player that is a VIP, because one of the perks is to be able to open elite. But what is the point if a brand new player gets smoked on heroic elite in low level quests? He/she will feel ripped off, and Turbine just lost a customer.

My suggestion is a tiered approach. L1-10: No monster champions on all difficulty levels. L11-20: Monster champions on hard and elite, but with spawn rate lower at 2% and 5% respectively. L21-28 Monster champions on hard and elite with spawn rate at 5% and 10% respectively. (Apologies if someone already suggested this, but I haven't read all 32 pages!). I don't know if coding will allow for this, so crossing my fingers.

From L1-L10, a new player will either get hooked or leave the game. L11-20 suggestion is a gradual transition to the more difficult levels of epic.

If Turbine does not care about the new player category, then I guess my comments don't apply, and I begin to worry about the longevity of the game.

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I agree with the diagnosis but I think your proposition is not very good.
the problem with Monster champion is for new players 28pts-no past life in regard of the 32 toons with past-lifes. The weakness of the toon himself still the same after lvl10, He do not have suddenly a past life or 32pts after lvl10 to resist the champion monster.
I do not cry because champion monsters are to powerfull, i just said it's not fun when you are one-shooted by a random.

I understand why a box to thick is not a very good solution. I acknowledge the trap box argument, but a CM is not a DD mechanics and as lots said there are not logical nor immersive but...
some do not want a box to thick, ok, I have an other idea :

So let the game recognize who is in the group to choice if there will be CM or not.
I mean in some games when you enter a quest, the quest recognize the party members level and adjust the instance at this level.
why do not do the same here, at the enter the game check and if all the party members have past-life/32pts there will be a plenty of CM. If there is just news toons without nothing, then no CM.
And the number/power of CM apearing in the instance will be adjusted at the rate past-life/first-life or the total number of past-life etc.

So everybody will be happy, the game would be harder for completionists/36pts, still fun for new players, and no new optional box to thick for challenge avoiders.

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Originally Posted by jalont

Where were your other party members at this point?

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Floating down the shaft behind me; I was dead by the time they had landed on a platform, which is the issue I have with the current implementation of the Champions: they are regularly killing me far faster than I or any other party members can react.

"Look out, champi..."

/dead.

Devs,

You might want to make sure glass spiders are not passing their champion buffs to their offspring. 400 hp baby glass spiders in the Quickfoot hideout. No crowns. The orange-named momma spider was a champion.

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Originally Posted by gypsythief

Floating down the shaft behind me; I was dead by the time they had landed on a platform, which is the issue I have with the current implementation of the Champions: they are regularly killing me far faster than I or any other party members can react.

"Look out, champi..."

/dead.

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Look, I understand what you are saying. But that is exactly the point. We have become so complacent (bored?) with these quests that we just do not expect anything that can kill us to be behind the corner, so instead of carefully going arount the corner (or down the shaft in this case) one by one, we just jump in and are annoyed to get killed.

But the point is, that this little drop of randomness/ thougher mobs should make you think about it before acting like that. Its far more exciting if you feel there actually might be something dangerous down that shaft, like it was the first times we went in there and got killed (where are the times i dreaded going down there and getting shot before I got out of the water!).

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Originally Posted by Blackheartox

Il date back to times before bravery bonus.
People didnt run elite, it was normal xtimes til ransack, then sometimes hard and sometimes elite if the quest had high base xp.

The issue is not the difficulty, its the xp provided by bravery bonus.
Those mechanics, that sum up to high xp included with 10% xp loss from party member dying are part of anti grouping mentality we have nowadays.
IF bravery was to be changed, people would not complain about elite getting a huge bump to difficulty.

And im not against casual, normal. hard or elite.
I just think there should be a difficulty for all sorts of players.
And current epic elite is to average, to stoic, and a difficulty for everyone, and not the one seeking the thrill of highest challenge.
There are many ways to fix this issue.
It is a issue, a mmorpg with mentality and mechanics that forces you to play solo is a issue in my gaming world.
Simple ways, change bb mechanics, change death xp loss mechanics, maybe keep champions from heroic content.
Issue with champions is rather simple, its a tool added to the game due to lack of challenge as product from recent buffs and gear that is quite powerful.
But it was directet at the wrong spot, heroic and epic.
It should had been done the normal for epic elite and epic hard, but erased from heroic content.
A rather simpler fix then checkbox.
IF we dont have a higher difficulty, then there is no reason to run the lower ones to improve oneself to one day play higher one.

Also i do agree from some standpoint that if epic elite stays as it was pre this update, that it made no sense whatsoever to have epic casual epic normal epic hard and epic elite, since epic elite didnt provide the factor a elite should give, they could had just changed all epic content simply to epic and thats it.
If there is no improvment to a setting there is no reason to call it epic this or that or whatever since the highest one is not fit to be called elite anyways.

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I don't accept the way you frame this problem due to a few things you keep asserting that simply are not true.

First, you seem to believe that there are only two types of player in ddo.

1. Vets, ALL of whom utterly faceroll epic elite content without a thought.
2. Newbs, who you believe don't even have any business attempting epic elite.

You completely ignore the existence of anything in between, as if somehow a newb cocoons himself one night and then wakes up the next morning a triple completionist.

This is an inaccurate premise, so it's hard to seriously consider any argument based on this belief.

Secondly, you assert that all people who are soloing are doing it because they want to, and further that they are entirely motivated to do this by efficiency. You seem to think that if the game is made difficult enough that soloing is not efficient, then all of them will suddenly start forming goups. Most of them won't. Why? because most of them aren't soloing for the reasons you think they are.

Third, you keep insisting that epic elite is easy, as if it's a fact and not an opinion. This has about as much weight as a mathematician saying that calculus is easy. Just because a person can learn to do something easily, it doesn't mean that thing is easy.

Lastly, your idea that making this added difficulty optional would mean nobody would ever play it. The fact that there is already a system of tiered difficulty in the game, and that people routinely pick the hardest one is some strong evidence that this won't happen. If it takes xp to motivate it, by all means go ahead. How about it's own first time bonus, a whopping 100%?

I feel sorry for the Permadeath guilds, if they are still around.

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Originally Posted by MangLord

I just ETRed yesterday, and ran Small Problem this morning on EH. Literally 95% of the orange named elementals were champions. I noticed one fire elemental without a crown over its head. I actually laughed when two earth elementals in a row had a dodge buff. An animated pile of rocks was dodging my attacks. Seriously. At the end fight, which was a fairly tough one before, all four of the wolves were champions. Needless to say, I alternated between being hit with Otto's Irresistible Dance and a wolf's trip until I got hit for 300ish damage after getting 20 stacks of vulnerability put on me and died. I have a very strong character, too. I decided to quit for the day, came on here to complain about it, and I'm gonna find something to do outside of DDO until the champion mess is resolved. They make me hate the game.

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On the other hand, yesterday I was running Dreaming Dark Elite, and only two mob champions appeared in the whole quest. RNG is amazing, right?

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Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes

I feel sorry for the Permadeath guilds, if they are still around.

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Why, they existed back when content was much harder than it is now. If anything I'd think they'd be happy. I mean, what's the point of permadeath when it's impossible to die?

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Originally Posted by Vanhooger

The only error was not to add a simple checkbox.

You want more challenge/loot? Tick checkbox.

You want to run as you did before U24? Do not tick the checkbox.

Done.

If you do this all the whiners about champion gone.

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I agree with the check box and fully support this.

Was running heroic elite spinners (which is hard enough in a pug). After the first beat down of the spinner (Phase 1) two hezrou champions showed up 25k hp each. Since I am a nuker/MM spamer it would have taken all my major pots and more just to take those two out. They were hitting for about 300+ hp. I couldn't even imagine hezrou spawn towards the end. I would bet 4 or more champs showed up. Needless to say it was a wipe with a full pug group and a dedicated healer. What I don't like about that is its forcing me to go back to insta kills or melee tank. That is the only way you can overcome the massive HP.

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Originally Posted by Nascoe

...so instead of carefully going arount the corner (or down the shaft in this case) one by one, we just jump in and are annoyed to get killed.

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Ah-ha I get it! So now we send our ((most expendable party member))* rogue down the shaft, and if we hear screams, followed by silence, we go back to the Lobster for some Dirty Kobolds and brag about our adventures from before u24!

:)

A bit of danger up a-head is fine, but frequent one-shotting without warning feels a bit much.

That said, we're now in Shan-To-Kor, and the Champion Hob-gobs seem much better balanced. They're nasty, and we're needing to be careful, but they're survivable. Maybe it's just those [Kobold] casters that are OP'd...



*P.S. no way to do strike-through?

In EE HHOE (level 30 quest), all the champions were manageable, although caster champion damage on anyone not wearing plate could instant or auto kill. It seems like they patched it so champion zombies and respawning mobs no longer spawn chests.

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Originally Posted by Springstring

sure if you don't have a life and all you do is play DDO but for the more casual of use that play 5 champions in a mod encounter that can one shot 1200 hp something is not right

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Seriously? The game is supposed to cater to Casual players? Keep jogging. You've ruined this game enough as it is.