Earning Hearts of Wood - post U20

I like running sagas.........for fun. NOT because I would be forced to if I want to TR. I also like running the old epic quests, but unless these are included in new sagas, they will die out. And the comms need to be BTA and not BTC. I've been playing this game for a long time now and have always enjoyed it. But it seems lately that the fun is getting sucked out of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chaimberland

I like running sagas.........for fun. NOT because I would be forced to if I want to TR. I also like running the old epic quests, but unless these are included in new sagas, they will die out. And the comms need to be BTA and not BTC. I've been playing this game for a long time now and have always enjoyed it. But it seems lately that the fun is getting sucked out of it.

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/tinfoil_hat_on

Almost seems at times someone has a hidden agenda to destroy DDO as a viable game.

/tinfoil_hat_off

All these D0oM threads and such... How about something constructive?

As a Casual player, these recent proposed changes are somewhat off-putting. Since this is the place for feedback on such matters, here I've come to share my thoughts.

So, Saga's... IF development wants to implement these as a required path for TR training... how's this for a proposal.

Before going further and ruining systems that currently work, in order to switch to this "New thing". Polish the plan, Make Saga's in Eberron as well. The "Saga's" already exist, just attach some new rewards to them. Starting with some of the lower chains... why not let these Comms be dropped from even lowly chains such as S-T-K and Tangleroot, 3BC, VoN, Fens, and Sands... do this throughout All packs and f2p chains alike.

Take the existing "Chains of quests" and add to them, the Saga factor. By adding to their end rewards similar, if not scaled, rewards based on the Saga model.
(It would continue to promote diverse questing, as well as catering to those that may be stuck on the whole bit about earning these Comms during Epic adventuring.)

Honestly it wouldn't matter if the Comms were BtC then or not. If we're earning the currency to buy our TR throughout our heroic lives, and not purely limited to certain "New" Saga's. One could TR as they hit 20, or relatively close to it. Instead of being forced to run Epic Content on a Character they just want to TR once it hit 20.

Possibly other uses for these Comms as well, at a later time or so..?
May not be the best possible route for some, but it seems better than the one being proposed.

Just one more thought..
Xion


(TL/DR: Take currently in place "Chains" and revamp them to "Saga's", giving similar reward lists for lower packs of (eberron) content as well. Thus, keeping older content viable and allowing players to earn these Comm's of Heroism throughout their Heroic life. Allowing the players that wish to do so, the ability to TR @ lv 20.)

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Originally Posted by faydingsun

There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

What makes Adventure packs desirable;

XP and Loot

There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;

You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

Reincarnation

A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.

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This ... this and exactly this.

Seriously ... Glin read this damned thing, read it, understand it and learn from it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faydingsun

There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

What makes Adventure packs desirable;

XP and Loot

There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;

You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

Reincarnation

A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.

---

This. All of this. Nailed it. Nailed it like nailing dead center after part 4 of the Shroud. Nailed it so good the group actually didn't die going into Part 5. (I love referencing that myth.)

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Originally Posted by Steiner-Davion

Highlighted part above hits it right on the head. In either system (current or proposed ) there is no way to earn a Reincarnation through normal game play during the Heroic Levels.

Period End of Story.

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And honestly there never has been a way and that's really a problem. Turbine doesn't have one single type of customer. They have many. But there's definitely a faction that would be happier if they never played a single epic quest or challenge. Turbine has ignored those people and over time those same people have migrated their token collection to the most efficient means possible, reducing their exposure to the part of the game in which they have no interest. If Turbine created a way for those people to play the part of the game they want to play (the level 1-18 game) and earn their hearts for their next life at the same time they'd make that portion of their player base much happier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faydingsun

There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

What makes Adventure packs desirable;

XP and Loot

There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;

You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

Reincarnation

A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.

---

Just in case you missed it, read it and rejoice - and hire the poster at once, Turbine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faydingsun

There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

What makes Adventure packs desirable;

XP and Loot

There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;

You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

Reincarnation

A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.

---

Truth!

If SAGAs are going to be the "New" earning path why do it when there are so FEW as an option. Has thought even gone into other SAGAs

(* Including Raids in some to help boost the # of Quests)
1. Vault Of Night - 6 Quests (Heroic/Epic) *
2. Red Fens - 5 Quest Saga (Heroic/Epic)
3. Carnival - 4 Quest Saga (Heroic/Epic)
4. Sentinel - 4 Quest Epic / 5 Quest Heroic
5. Vale of Twilight - 6 Quests (Heroic)
6. Amrath - 7 Quests (Heroic) *
7. Cannith - 5 Quests (Heroic) * <- Would need the 3 Quests also set to EPIC to get an EPIC Saga out of this...
8. Sands - 10 Quest (Heroic)/5 Quests (Epic) *

These would allow for a Quick turn around and open up Saga Options for those not FR players. Reward amounts can be adjusted based on the # of Quests and these SAGAs will be similar to GH ones in that there is no overlap with another saga.

More Options would be better when trying to replace an entire system where you had lots of options for earning. Short Sagas may not earn as much as longer sagas, but would help some feel a progression and open up the earning to a larger variety of Quests.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faydingsun

There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

What makes Adventure packs desirable;

XP and Loot

There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;

You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

Reincarnation

A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.

---

It's been said before, but it is important enough to repeat. This guy right here gets it. Turbine, read this. Understand this. Then we will be on the same page. In a perfect world this guy would be the head of all decision making for DDO. Yes, making money is great, but player retention and happiness is way more important. It's easier to earn pennies from millions than it is to earn millions from one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

sagas were well received as an option for bonus rewards with the option to skip 1 or 2 or more quests we don't like. now its being forced on us as the only way in game to reincarnate, when token trade in phases out. as a result, this is how the players react. now players are actually going to hate sagas. well done.

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I have to agree with this too... Sagas were a nice POSITIVE addition to the game... I thought they were a cool optional idea.

Tying comms to sagas now means I won't be able to take any other choices (no skill tomes, no xp, no guild renown) because sagas is the ONLY place I can get comms.

Now sagas are a required grind, a NEGATIVE addition to the game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faydingsun

There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

What makes Adventure packs desirable;

XP and Loot

There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;

You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

Reincarnation

A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.

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Just to bring this up ;)

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

I have to agree with this too... Sagas were a nice POSITIVE addition to the game... I thought they were a cool optional idea.

Tying comms to sagas now means I won't be able to take any other choices (no skill tomes, no xp, no guild renown) because sagas is the ONLY place I can get comms.

Now sagas are a required grind, a NEGATIVE addition to the game.

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Oh oh, Thrudh said that something in the game is negative! It's the end of the world! ;P

But seriously Turbine - take note!

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Originally Posted by Vargouille

There's active discussion here at Turbine about the binding status of Commendations of Valor.

This is what we are tentatively moving to for the next Lamannia preview (which is decided days ahead of time, so the conversation is likely to keep moving and Lamannia will be out of date by then):

Heroic True Heart of Wood: Costs 250 Commendations of Valor
Binds to Character on Acquire

This is not what we intend to ship with. However, we need to decide on whether to lower the cost should or change the Commendations to be Bind to Account instead of Character. (Or potentially both, as the exact cost is still under discussion, but for simplicity I'm pretending it's one or the other right now.)

If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. We also believe there are legitimate reasons for both choices and why one or the other is better for gameplay or fun, many of which have been expressed by various players recently.

We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!

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A little back ground -

I am a guildmaster and alt-a-holic. I have hit the cap on the number of allowable charactors.
I have activive charactors at Levels 4,8,9,10,12,14,15,17,18,18,20,20,20, 22,23,23,25,25 - all of different classes (aka roles) - some first life - some second life.
I love different build and playing the game differently based on the role I am filling in a quest.

In our guild - we have a mix of old and new - high and low - I make an effort to keep charactors spread out so I can help guildes / friends. Epic TOR, CiTW flagging, LOB, Shroud flagging, CO6, Waterworks etc... In a given month I typically visit a large part of the game.

I want to have fun and be able to help fellow players. I can not afford to grind for any one charactor too much.

Items that are bound to account / boe allow me to use use ALL my charactors as a WHOLE to work towards in game goals while having the flexiblity to run with guildies / friend at any level any time. Working towards, TAPS, Shrould ingredents, challenge ingredents, etc...

Bind to Account allows me the freedom to play this way and experience all DDO has to ofter. As my "fleet" of charactors get older, some will be TRed to repopulate my lower level ranks. If I had to keep focus on running one charactor to be able to HTR/ETR - I will be doing a lot less (if any). By allowing my "fleet" of charactors to all contribue to in game goals - it allows me to move forward and stay flexible.

When you look at these changes from a Player level, not a charactor level - they are in a different light and have different impact.
Bound to Account is a must for me to continue my current play style.

Propane

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Originally Posted by faydingsun

There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

What makes Adventure packs desirable;

XP and Loot

There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;

You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

Reincarnation

A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.

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^^ To just help bring home the bacon do this ^^

And because this is specifically the reincarnation thread I'll collect some great ideas already mentioned:

• Make CoV bta.
• Make CoV drop in all Epic quests.
• Make CoV be a large number in a saga reward that is representative of the effort to complete it (like the XP and Renown option).
• Create Heroic Sagas and make them drop CoV. Simply use existing content that makes sense e.g. Necro, Desert, etc. and make that level dependent (iirc when I run a l.28 in a l.13 quest I do not get renown in my end chest so make it same for CoV). I should have enough CoV to Reincarnate when I get to 20. This should be based on a 2nd or third life toon's xp need.
• Make effort to obtain the CoV for a Heroic Heart roughly equivalent (maybe a little tougher if you have to) to the effort needed for 20 tokens now.

Now I want to throw a few ideas and see what sticks:

1. Make CoV drop in all quests as a reward option from quest givers something small but something that would add up over time. It could be as simple as 1 per quest/day (like the first time xp bonus) and if you add this to the heroic saga rewards it could add it up to a heart (I'll leave specific numbers alone). This way you are not penalizing or rewarding Normal or Elite runs, those are runs for xp differences.
2. You could look into adding in something like token fragments and calling them Recommendations of Valor and doing something with that (yay more collectibles). That could be a way of having CoV in heroic quests without having a full CoV be a reward because that does seem a bit much.
3. Another logical place to earn CoV is through Favor. For every 100 favor you earn 10 CoV. That way I get rewarded for being VIP/buying all packs and running different quests and running them on Elite. No-one loses and you incentive diversity in quests. The whole point of Favor is how famous and cool you are, you know, being valorous.

I told you before you'd better buy some pitchfork proof coats if your intention was to trade commendations for hearts. I thought you would take commendations of heroism but it seems to me the new system is even more restrictive (after all, commendations of heroism have zero usefulness once you've upgraded a couple items). This is what I think now:

If you want to replace epic tokens of the 12 with commendations of any type (which makes sense in many ways), then try to keep as many of the good things about tokens as possible. Tokens were BtA and they were a plus. Try not to make them BtC and not to make them mutually exclusive with gaining xp or skill tomes or such.

I wonder why you can't just tie Heroic TR into Favor.

say 3000 or 3500 favor level get a free Heroic Heart and at the same time drop their price to around 500 TP.

The people who play through a life are going to be in that range generally especially if they aren't out there farming a handful of quests so little to no extra grind for them them to TR.

The stoners who are zerging the lives are going to be NOWHERE near that when they hit 20 so they either have to grind out a lot of quests they paid about $50 to skip having to run OR they will have to buy one. The core here is that Heroic TR's don't use ANY currency to purchase in game.

At $15 that makes a life cost about $65 and for many that simply might be too much to ask but at a mere 10% more I am thinking a great many will indeed bite on that.

Leave the Iconic and Epic fairly where it is now (though adjust the pricing PLEASE) and even leave them BTC and I think you are OK.

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Originally Posted by SiliconScout

I wonder why you can't just tie Heroic TR into Favor.

say 3000 or 3500 favor level get a free Heroic Heart and at the same time drop their price to around 500 TP.

The people who play through a life are going to be in that range generally especially if they aren't out there farming a handful of quests so little to no extra grind for them them to TR.

The stoners who are zerging the lives are going to be NOWHERE near that when they hit 20 so they either have to grind out a lot of quests they paid about $50 to skip having to run OR they will have to buy one. The core here is that Heroic TR's don't use ANY currency to purchase in game.

At $15 that makes a life cost about $65 and for many that simply might be too much to ask but at a mere 10% more I am thinking a great many will indeed bite on that.

Leave the Iconic and Epic fairly where it is now (though adjust the pricing PLEASE) and even leave them BTC and I think you are OK.

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this solution makes far too much sense, is too elegant and would encourage too much happiness in general.

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Originally Posted by Thrudh

This makes sense to me... Getting 20 tokens was harder back in the day and took longer... And there were other uses for them.. Now it is very easy to get them. The key to MMO microtransactions is finding that perfect balance of just enough grind that you consider buying from the store instead... but not so much grind that you feel like the company is screwing you and forcing you to buy from the store.



Thank you for reverting the change for now... A big issue with commendations is that they are BtC, and they need to drop in all epic quests... I can understand you may not want to do that, because then people will just farm the one fastest comm/minute quest over and over... So, if you're determined to stick with sagas, create more sagas that cover all epic quests, even the older stuff). Make the comms BtA for Update 20 please, and work on more sagas for Update 21. We need reasons to run older epic content (Make it possible to update old epic loot is another way to achieve that).

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I am wondering, and I'm sure this has already been asked, but why is it a CHOICE now? If I run a saga, doing quests I greatly dislike or that are boring, I don't want to have to choose between XP and comms. That seems inane, and I don't like it at all. Has this been addressed yet?

Again, sorry but I'm not reading through 30 pages to see if this has been asked, therefore ensuring it probably HAS been asked. If Glin could update the initial post with some FAQs I know a lot of us would be grateful. There's not a toilet comfortable enough to read 30+ pages to get to a question you want asked.

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Originally Posted by voodoogroves

Right. In order to heroic TR "the right way" I essentially will be level 22 at a minimum, likely level 23+ because I'll end up helping friends or otherwise being inefficient (getting in a group to do something and because of the gating nature of all of these, someone needs to do an earlier one to flag).

PROGRESS at that point (post 20 on a character you want to TR) is only relevant in regards to how quickly you can TR. Running anything that doesn't help you TR is like leveling an off destiny WHEN YOU DONT EVEN NEED THE FREAKING FATE POINTS ... a waste of time.

I'm not sure this is well understood.

Let's say I want to TR as soon as I hit 20. BTA stuff is off the table, so now I have to farm it with the character in question. I have to run the Sagas as the only means to get a heart in-game.
- I run Lords of Dust. Maybe in a group, maybe not. Then I log - life calls.
- I come back, wanting to do Servants. People join the group, but one of them needs Lords of Dust. I can re-run it (for essentially no gain beyond plat for my character in question) or kick the person.

This holds through the entire first chain. Want to run Beyond the Rift? Find someone who's at the exact same spot you are, else everyone will be thinking "god, this doesn't help my saga at all".

It's like running Threnal where everyone wants the end reward. Possible, yes, but unless you happen to find lots of people with the time to do the whole thing you'll end up doing it alone or dealing with an inefficient logistical nightmare. Instead of Coyle, it's the Millers and Ana.

And, you know, Threnal is such an awesome pack and the multi-part chain nature doesn't at all inhibit grouping...

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THIS!!!

This already happens just TRing as we try to make the most of our xp streak and first time bonuses etc. Please don't make another system that will further inhibit pug'n.