Updated Death Penalty and Permanent Item Damage Changes

If the casual gamer can't afford to pay 3-4k gold per quest for repairs(which is about what they get in chest pulls), maybe more for a run if they die a few times, then they don't have one of the following things...

1. Enough time to play the game to make it to the higher levels
2. Enough time to aquire the high end loot that take more cash to repair.
3. A bard toon to send their loot pulls to to sell for the most cash.

I am getting real sick of the "casual" gamers complaining about how horrid the new "death " penalty is. It isn't. It is a joke. Roll up a toon that has a positive haggle score and send all your junk to that toon to sell.

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Originally Posted by Selinius

If the casual gamer can't afford to pay 3-4k gold per quest for repairs(which is about what they get in chest pulls), maybe more for a run if they die a few times, then they don't have one of the following things...

1. Enough time to play the game to make it to the higher levels
2. Enough time to aquire the high end loot that take more cash to repair.
3. A bard toon to send their loot pulls to to sell for the most cash.

I am getting real sick of the "casual" gamers complaining about how horrid the new "death " penalty is. It isn't. It is a joke. Roll up a toon that has a positive haggle score and send all your junk to that toon to sell.

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And I am sick of people telling me what I can and can't accomplish as a casual gamer. I am a casual gamer by the definition of most people. That means I get 15 hours or less a week of play time. Yet I have managed to get 4 characters up to cap. Why? Because I focus my time on one aspect of my character at a time. First is leveling, then favor. Also I run with a guild that has no problem helping me out. That latter is the biggest reason.

I do have the high end loot because I raid and I have guildies that give me their multiples. There is one person in my guild that has pulled more than 5 sets of MFP, and he gave me 2 of them. Others have pulled several sets of MFP, banishers, smiters, vorpals etc. They give them to me because I had NEVER pulled any of those until this mod. I only get raid loot if no one else in the party wants/needs the item. My bad luck with loot is notorious, and my guildies have backed me on the forums with that FACT, not perspective. That is 2 years of playing and I pulled my first MFP and a vorpal. So I do have the bills that the power gamers have.

So now the game requires that I build a bard, even though I don't care to play them? Isn't that what this game is supposed to not be about? Forcing character roles. And what about all the money I have to spend sending items to my haggle bot? Not much savings there. And all of my characters have a positive haggle score, thank you very much. Oh, should I impose on my guildies even further by giving them all my stuff so I can log out one character and log in my hagglebot? What, they don't have things they need to do too? And what about all the time I spend managing all of this? That is time I don't get to quest and my time on the game is limited.

Quit telling the casual gamers what their problems are, or how to solve them, when you aren't one and don't get it, since you are obviously a power gamer ( not being derogatory ) and don't have our problems. Thank you.

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Originally Posted by Gornin

And I am sick of people telling me what I can and can't accomplish as a casual gamer. I am a casual gamer by the definition of most people. That means I get 15 hours or less a week of play time. Yet I have managed to get 4 characters up to cap. Why? Because I focus my time onn one aspect of my character at a time. First is leveling, then favor. Also I run with a guild that has no problem helping me out. That latter is the biggest reason.

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Ok then, educate us.

How much less GP have you cleared per week as compared to before the change?

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Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes

Ok then, educate us.

How much less GP have you cleared per week as compared to before the change?

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I will chip in on the "casual" tip. I'm a 4 nights, 10-15 hours a week player. I think I count as "dedicated casual." Man, thank god for the Reaver.. it almost guarantees I can do *something* with one of my characters before I log out and go to bed on a night where I miss the hook up with my guild-mates.

Having a supportive guild makes all the difference there - it takes a long long time to flag for the Reaver (let alone finding groups for the Abbot). Money's the least of my problems, and death is the least of my money problems. I burn more plat on one raise dead scroll then I pay in death taxes in a week.

Now, supporting my guild's Shroud addiction with my cleric? That will make me go broke in a hurry without handouts.

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Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes

How much less GP have you cleared per week as compared to before the change?

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That depends on how often you die.

Die less, you make more. Die more, you make less.

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Originally Posted by GeneralDiomedes

Ok then, educate us.

How much less GP have you cleared per week as compared to before the change?

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On my capped characters 3 have stayed fairly static. My cleric lost a lot of money due to the raid and learning how to do it with less consumables. He is fairly static now with about 40k plat. All 4 of my capped characters have never topped 100 k plat. My level 9 fighter can't top 10k plat.

Some of this may be my fault due to the fact that I try to be self sufficient and carry several different kinds of pots or wand if I can use them. I can't use voice, so I just chug a pot if I need to, instead of stopping and typing that I need something.

I have never pulled an item that would sell at auction. I have tried with items that I thought would sell, or had guildies tell me to put it on auction because it should sell. No luck, because evidently every one has something as good or better already.

I make sure I have my CHA and haggle items on everytime I sell or repair. When my one guildie is playing his bard, I will ask him to help me out.

I compared everything I pulled to what everyone else in my party pulled for a week and I averaged 25 to 30 percent less than they did. It is a guild joke that I will pull a box o' rox or rolling papers for loot. It was a big deal in my guild when I pulled that MFP and then a couple days later I pulled a +3 vorpal greataxe. I had characters that could use them so I kept them. If not, I would have saved them for a guildie since they have been so generous to me that it would have been boorish to auction/sell them when they have done so much for me.

If I can provide any more info, I will.

if you have thousands of plat after buying all the consumables, repairs, and what not that you need: what's the problem?

also a fact that many don't seem to consider:
the more character you have, the more likely you are to need anything good you pull.
this leads to fewer things to sell/trade and make money off of.

The money you spend sending stuff to your haggle toon is small change. You make what you spent sending the item, plus more. I know, I have a bard that just today made over 100k plat selling weps and armor. Thats with a mid to upper 60's haggle. Hitting a 30 haggle on a bard isn't all that hard.

Human 5 bard starting with an 18 cha.

8 ranks
5 haggle item
3 HV
1 focusing chant
2 bard haggle
4 eagle splendor
2 heroism
3 skill focus haggle, feat
2 negotiator, feat
7 cha bonus for a 24/25 cha
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35 haggle/30 without the 2 feats

I see that you have a rogue in your bio, whats his haggle? If its higher than that, use him. If it isn't, roll a bard, spend the few days to get him to 5 and then use him to sell all your stuff. The money will roll in. Use the vendors also, the bar keeps rip you off. 15k plat from the barkeep is probably 20-25k from the vendor.

You call me a power gamer by YOUR definition, fine. I don't agree with that, but whatever. Little back ground. I was in your shoes once. No high haggle toon and limited play time. Never had cash, so I know where you are coming from. I really do. My circumstances have changed so I now have more time per week on average to play.


Everyone has poor loot pulls, its a part of the game. It happens on most of the pulls you get out of the chest. Whenever I see a junk item that I can't use, I don't get mad, I just shrug and send it off to get sold for the most cash I can get for it. When I do pull something that I can use, I am happy. But I play this game for fun. TO get the most fun out of my time I sucked it up and rolled a bard that has turned into my swiss army knife character. A use for every situation. Not the best at anyone thing, but usefull in all.

Please don't take this post as a "power gamer" telling a "casual player" what they have to roll to play the game. I am just giving you some suggestions to think about to help get you the plat to pay for your repairs.

Edit:
40k on your cleric? That is bad how? Just by what you have posted and using your cleric as a reference point that means that on your capped toons you have a combined plat total of around 160k plat with lets say 5k on your fighter. My bard just broke the 300k plat mark and my other toons have combined another 100-150k plat or so. So 165k vs 400-450k. If 400-450k plat makes me a "power gamer" then so be it. But in my opinion a "casual gamer" won't have 165K plat on their toons.

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Originally Posted by Laith

if you have thousands of plat after buying all the consumables, repairs, and what not that you need: what's the problem?

also a fact that many don't seem to consider:
the more character you have, the more likely you are to need anything good you pull.
this leads to fewer things to sell/trade and make money off of.

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Understood, and that is a good point. Consider though that I play with people in the power game community and they are always talking about how they have 2 to 3 times as much plat as me. And they have as many or more characters as me. All with plenty of plat. They buy stuff off the AH and still have plenty of money. I can't afford to buy things off the AH.

I am not complaining that others have more than me. I am concerned that that the game is scaling to those players and is making it much more difficult for players like me to have fun playing. It is not fun to have to micro manage your gear and plat. Lets see, should I buy a couple of remove curse pots? If I do, I may not have enough to repair after the quest. If I dont, I may fail a save because I am cursed and then die and cost me what I have left, and may take permanant damage. Power gamers don't worry about that stuff. They can just buy what they want, replace a piece of gear that is too damaged off the AH, or from their bank becasue they have multiples. That is why I get comments like "this death penalty is trivial", because they have had 3^ or more loot pulls than me because they play more.

I know that death is not SUPPOSED to cause perm damage, but I don't think it is working right all the time. I have taken perm damage way more often than I used too, and the only correlation is if I die in a quest. I have always been a careful player because I have never been wealthy and I know I am not as good as the power gamer sect, but I have learned from them, I listen well, and my guild knows that if they set me a task, I rarely fail at it.

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Originally Posted by Gornin

I can't afford to buy things off the AH.

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Sure you can.

You just can't buy the popular stuff.

I like to get ... of deception items for my rogues and ... of righteousness weapons for everyone else. They're suffixes that I actually find moderately useful and other people seem to think brings the value of an item down.

You do have some other options available to you. Instead of stubbornly refusing to ask for help, you could save some money on potions by seeing if anyone else can cure your status effects. I have several clickies (remove curse, neutralize poison, remove disease) on various characters for this purpose. It doesn't cost me anything to hit someone up with a charge.

I don't use voice either, so I know what it feels like to have to stop to type. But you could do it, if you wanted to start saving money. And if you're currently breaking even, then all it's going to take is a bit more saving/selling and a bit less dying/buying to start pushing you in the positive direction.

Yeah even my pure solo guy can buy very effective stuff on the auction house, just not the top end or unique named items. He's still walking around with gear that is mostly at his min level which is far far far better than if he only had loot drops.

And as for weapons, I find you just can't buy the perfect stuff. For instance a +2 Acid of Greater Undead Bane would go for a lot, while a +2 [something useless] of Greater Undead Bane would go for next to nothing. But you still are going to be very effective with option #2.

That is the MT I know :D.

Seriously, let me rephrase then. Anything I can afford off the AH is gear I already have or don't have the space for. I use deception and righteousness too. I use many of the "unpopular" mods due to my situation and I find ways to make them work. But I also have alot of high end gear given to me and also raid gear. I run end content alot with my guild, so I have pretty good gear, but if I needed to replace any of it I couldn't afford to, like many.

Its not stubborness. It is that I don't want to be left behind while I am trying to type out what I need. Ok, maybe some of it is that I like to be as self sufficient as I can be, like is preached on the forums here. And maybe having played a cleric first. So that might be construed a stubborness.

And clickies. Man, would be nice if I could find all these clickies other people have. I have found only one clickie with restoration. Every other clickie I find has very limited usefulness, so it is not worth keeping in my pack taking up space. Maybe I could buy them off the AH, but I don't see them, and truthfully, I pretty much stopped checking it since I never see anything I need or can afford.

I tried selling a +5 shocking burst dwarven axe of humanoid bane on the AH for the last week and couldn't sell it. Even set a buyout of 100,000 gp, but no takers. I think that is a pretty nice wep, but I don't have anyone with proficiency in it. I don't want to sell it for 11,000 gp, but if I have to post it one more time, I'll have only made half of that if I sell it.

And for the last time, I don't die all that much. Occasionally from bad luck, but more often due to lag/bug issues. That was a big issue of mine when they wanted to change the death penalty, and it is affecting me. I don't necessarily need them to go back to XP debt, even though for me I didn't have to do anything special to get out of debt, just quest some more. Now I have to micromanage my gear and money.

I just want them to make sure they aren't gearing this game to the power gamers. They seem to think that everyone is rolling in plat, and that ain't true. They keep making up ways to provide money sinks, and the only people I see it affecting is the casual gamer, not the power gamer. And I am also concerned that there may be some problems in the death damage mechanic. Maybe make adjustments to costs and make sure that the mechanic is working properly.

I still see a correlation between when I die and when I get permanant damage. It is the only time it happens. Maybe the problem is I die when the game doesn't even know why I died. I get the "you were killed by something" message so often it is another standing joke in my guild, along with my loot woes. Or when I take the same falling damage 3 times in a row even though I have tumble. And other things like these.

Not one person in my guild has bound anything because they don't need to. Only me, the one who gets on at around 9:30 and plays to 11:30, and maybe until 1 am on Friday and Saturday if I am not working, because I need to.

Its hard to take complaints seriously when people are still complaining about permanent item damage from death being a problem. (It doesn't happen).

My two capped characters (almost, one is still short of being capped) have probably made 400k Plat since mod 6 came out. So, no the death tax is not an issue. That's cash in hand after having spent money on new equipment, energy cells, donations of heal scrolls for shroud runs, cure potions, ...

Mostly thats come from the running the vale for chests while waiting for a group. (It is even easier than the orchard for my banisher equipped rogue but my Pally can make money there too. The two most gimped classes in the game making money soloing! How can that be?). Except for the first time I ran Rainbow, and the first shroud run, my characters have come out ahead after every run. And this is with guild runs where we often run without a cleric and run in self sufficient mode (potions and wands).

Play smart.

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Originally Posted by ahpook

Its hard to take complaints seriously when people are still complaining about permanent item damage from death being a problem. (It doesn't happen).

My two capped characters (almost, one is still short of being capped) have probably made 400k Plat since mod 6 came out. So, no the death tax is not an issue. That's cash in hand after having spent money on new equipment, energy cells, donations of heal scrolls for shroud runs, cure potions, ...

Mostly thats come from the running the vale for chests while waiting for a group. (It is even easier than the orchard for my banisher equipped rogue but my Pally can make money there too. The two most gimped classes in the game making money soloing! How can that be?). Except for the first time I ran Rainbow, and the first shroud run, my characters have come out ahead after every run. And this is with guild runs where we often run without a cleric and run in self sufficient mode (potions and wands).

Play smart.

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Play smart. That's really helpful. At least when MT disagrees with me he doesn't assume I'm stupid. He may think I don't understand his point, but he doesn't insult me.

Do you actually read the posts people make, or do you just like to put other people down. So far no one has given me a suggestion that I already don't do or its impractical. I do the vale solo on my Wiz and cleric, and even done it on my fighter and rogue, just takes me longer. Let me repeat it in big letters so maybe every one will see it and stop saying the same stupid thing over and over like a mantra, 'cause it won't make it true.

MY LOOT GENERATOR SUCKS. I AVERAGE UP 1/3 LESS THAN OTHER POEOPLE IN THE SAME GROUP. IT HAS BEEN PROVEN AND VOUCHED BY THOSE WHO HAVE WITNESSED IT. THE LAW OF AVERAGES MAY WORK FOR THE GROUP AS A WHOLE, BUT NOT FOR THE INDIVIDUAL. JUST BECAUSE YOU DON"T HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PROBLEM DOES NOT EXIST.

And again, the only time I take permanant damage is when I die. This thread is for the dev to hear feedback on and I am trying to provide feed back on what MIGHT be a problem with the death mechanic, seeing the only time I take perm damage is when I die, and others have posted similar issues only to be yelled at by others.

Go ahead and insult me, it won't shut me up.

It's funny, if I was one of the well known forumites, I wouldn't be essentially called a liar. Thanks again for degenerating a conversation I am trying to have with some others that are actually trying to be helpful.

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Originally Posted by Gornin

Let me repeat it in big letters so maybe every one will see it and stop saying the same stupid thing over and over like a mantra, 'cause it won't make it true.

MY LOOT GENERATOR SUCKS. I AVERAGE UP 1/3 LESS THAN OTHER POEOPLE IN THE SAME GROUP. IT HAS BEEN PROVEN AND VOUCHED BY THOSE WHO HAVE WITNESSED IT. THE LAW OF AVERAGES MAY WORK FOR THE GROUP AS A WHOLE, BUT NOT FOR THE INDIVIDUAL. JUST BECAUSE YOU DON"T HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PROBLEM DOES NOT EXIST.

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ha ha! Math is hard!

I want a "loot generator." I'd install next to the mailbox in my guild housing.

Look, using all caps wont make you more persuasive when you so clearly fail to grasp a game mechanic. If you only opened one chest, or a handful, in the life of the game, your statement would have some validity. The law of averages does work out to an increasingly predictable result as you open hundreds of chests. It's factual and over time, quite satisfactual (with apologies to Walt Disney).

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Originally Posted by Gornin

And again, the only time I take permanant damage is when I die. This thread is for the dev to hear feedback on and I am trying to provide feed back on what MIGHT be a problem with the death mechanic, seeing the only time I take perm damage is when I die, and others have posted similar issues only to be yelled at by others.

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Maybe, but it would have to be vanishingly rare or more people would report it. Perhaps that tail-of-the-bell curve thing you believe you are experiencing with loot is at work here too.

Many people have asked you and the other damage skeptics to test this with rigor - fix everything, walk out the door into the vale and /death, and get a perm. damage from that. Until then you are not controlling your variables. Prove your case, if you can.


Postscript: "No whining, unless you're serving good cheese. Otherwise, put a cork in it." -Gornin

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Originally Posted by Gornin

At least when MT disagrees with me he doesn't assume I'm stupid. He may think I don't understand his point, but he doesn't insult me.

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Oh man! It's like I'm failing at my one purpose in life. ;)

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Originally Posted by Gornin

And again, the only time I take permanant damage is when I die. This thread is for the dev to hear feedback on and I am trying to provide feed back on what MIGHT be a problem with the death mechanic, seeing the only time I take perm damage is when I die, and others have posted similar issues only to be yelled at by others.

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A dev posted a way of determining that.

1) Put on a disposable suit of armour and nothing else.
2) Find a non-violent way to die repeatedly until it breaks (i.e. drowning)
3) Go and repair it.

Repeat steps 1 - 3 until you experience permanent item or brain damage whichever comes first.

@ selinius - Thank you for the response. I don't know what my rogues haggle score is, but I know I max it in skill points and his CHA is an effective 15 I think, its prolly around 22 before the haggle item goes on. I have been using him alot for this purpose, and I do now have a bard 7. My issue with doing this is the time required accomplishing all these tasks takes away from my limited gaming time when before it wasn't an issue. The mailing which costs money, the running around to the various vendors, the buying of new stuff and then mailing it to the characters that need it, which costs more money. It is a drag and not fun.

If the money I have on all of my toons is considered alot, then maybe my perspective is off. It sure seems to me that most people have 3^ or more than I have. And honestly, I am not whining that I don't have what those who play more have. I understand and expect that those who play more are going to have more. The changes made in the last mod are affecting those of us who do not play as much more than the power gamers.Also, when I use the phrase power gamer it is not to be derogatory, it is merely to differentiate between those whe play less and those who play alot, so please do not take offense.

@moorerw - math isn't that hard, considering I have a degree in robotics engineering, ( even though I am not working in the field right now ), and I have taken analytical and statistical calculus. Math is very easy for me. There are proven theorems that do prove that on a random generator, within a certain population, the average will work out in a group, but there are those who are on the high end and those who are on the low end. There are certain spikes in the extremes, and they CAN change over time, but as one moves up/down the scale, someone else is moving in the opposite direction. That is why the average does work out in a population.

And I wasn't yelling, I said I would repeat what I have said in big letters so maybe people wouldn't miss what I was saying. And I am not whining either. I am stating some observations about some trends I am noticing pertaining to the death penalty and how it is affecting my game play, and may be affecting others who may not have the time/inclination or may even be afraid to discuss it here. You guys can be pretty brutal sometimes.

If you find a loot generator, let us know because I think we all want one :D

This part for the General too; yes, in a controlled experiment, it does seem to work as intended. My issue comes from when I either don't know why I died, died to bugs, or maybe like in my earlier statement about the Disintegrate spell. MT and I disagree on the description of the spell and would rule differently if we were the DM, at least he hasn't said anything after I pointed out how the spell only works on one object at a time, so i guess he doesn't agree with my understanding of the spell. If Turbine agrees with his assessment, then I would lilke to know. I am thinking that dying due bug/lag issues may cause a glitch in the system where it it thinks I took massive damage and then died may be causing my perma damage, but I can't be sure because I am not a programmer. But when you don't know why you died i.e. "you were killed by something" and there is no damage on your combat log, but you are dead. Go repair and you have perma damage. This happens to me fairly often. There are other situations that concern me too. This was my big issue when they posited this idea, and you might possibly think that I am predisposed do see issues where there aren't, but I am a pretty analytical person and I have been watching this for over a month before I really started in on it again.

@MT - don't worry, I'm pretty thick skulled, and others with more motivation and time have failed too :D

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Originally Posted by Gornin

Play smart. That's really helpful. At least when MT disagrees with me he doesn't assume I'm stupid. He may think I don't understand his point, but he doesn't insult me.

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I wasn't meaning this directly to you or trying to insult you. If you feel that way, sorry for the offense.

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Originally Posted by Gornin

MY LOOT GENERATOR SUCKS. I AVERAGE UP 1/3 LESS THAN OTHER POEOPLE IN THE SAME GROUP. IT HAS BEEN PROVEN AND VOUCHED BY THOSE WHO HAVE WITNESSED IT. THE LAW OF AVERAGES MAY WORK FOR THE GROUP AS A WHOLE, BUT NOT FOR THE INDIVIDUAL. JUST BECAUSE YOU DON"T HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE PROBLEM DOES NOT EXIST.

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Sorry, I thought this thread was about the death penalty being too onerous. I was just giving a counter example. Had I realized that this thread was about anomalies in the loot generation I wouldn't have posted my anecdote..... Wait a minute. It is about the death penalty. If you have a problem with loot generation, why don't you start up an appropriate thread to collect input from others who may be affected?

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Originally Posted by Gornin

And again, the only time I take permanant damage is when I die. This thread is for the dev to hear feedback on and I am trying to provide feed back on what MIGHT be a problem with the death mechanic, seeing the only time I take perm damage is when I die, and others have posted similar issues only to be yelled at by others.

Go ahead and insult me, it won't shut me up.

It's funny, if I was one of the well known forumites, I wouldn't be essentially called a liar. Thanks again for degenerating a conversation I am trying to have with some others that are actually trying to be helpful.

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Once again, I didn't mean to insult you. Sorry. But I also did not yell at you or call you a liar.

I believe that you are only noticing the permanent damage on death. Death didn't cause it. What caused the permanent damage is the events directly preceeding your death. With all the people currently taking the death taxi, I think a problem of death causing permanent damage would have been screamed at a lot louder.

Ahpook, thank you and I also apologize for shooting back. I tend to comeback pretty hard when I feel attacked.

This isn't about random loot generation, but it becomes a factor when everyone keeps telling me that they are still making money. I seem to be stuck at the low end of the curve, and while it didn't bother me before, it is causing me issues now. Namely the issue of managing money instead of questing. It is becoming work and not fun to play. With every level cap increase, average worth on all characters increased also until I reache a static level until the next increase. This time I have lost or stayed about even. Understandable at first, as we learn the new quests, but even you say how you are profitting, but I can't seem to, even with leveling a bard to be my broker. But that cuts into my time too, and that is the real issue.

Like I said in previous posts it is not all the time that I receive the damage. It seems to be in specific instances where I get bugged or lagged.

One example. My fighter in the shroud and we get to part 4, we are on the 3rd round and may be able to drop him this round. He is really hating me with my transmuting pure good bastard sword and goes all out on me and drops me. Repair and no damage to my gear. I can see all the hits and damage in my combat log.

Counter example. My wizard in the Reaver. She is standing back all buffed (including tumble ) up casting disco ball and FoD and PK and went out and got her charge, came back and continued killing elementals. We had endured the reverse gravity twice so far and he does it again. The first 2 times I only took a little damage that a pot took care of. Third time though, I come down and die. No damage in the combat log and it says "you were killed by something". Repair and my scepter takes perm damage. What killed me and how did it cause me damage?

Example 2 is my problem. I would like to see a dev address this. I brought this up in the original thread with no response, and I am having issues as I feared. Why does this happen in the first place? Is it client server lag? I know its not my gear. Is it my ISP? Maybe, but no one can seem to help me figure it out on either end, be it Verizon or Turbine. I bug report it and I never get any response. If any of the comp wizards on the forums can give me some solid information, maybe then I could solve my issues, but until then I will keep asking for help and bringing up my issue with the developer who authored this thread for this purpose. Hopefully he is still checking this thread, and provide some insight or help.